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Overall, even if the numbers on some of these changes need to be tweaked, I really like the direction of them.
Less bio mine, more Tank play is a good thing. TvZ has gotten incredibly stale because Terrans just play pure bio+mine every game, and that needs to change.
A stronger mech army built around Tanks is a good thing, and combining upgrades means that Mech+Viking support can actually keep up with a Protoss deathball in upgrades.
Protoss that is more oriented around mobile harass units that stay active throughout the game and reward constant micro and good multitask is a good thing.
Making burrow micro viable again is a good thing.
I'd LOVE it if PvT got a new dynamic, where instead of Bio+Viking+Medivac vs. Protoss AOE deathball being the only way anyone plays, Terran mech became viable again. In BW, Protoss couldn't take a Tank-heavy mech army head on, unless they hit a shitload of really good storms...but Protoss had lots of ways to outmanuever the mech army and inflict punishing harassment. If SC2 ever reached a point where a Tank-focused mech army could consistently beat Protoss ground armies, but Protoss was able to use prism play, stargate units and other mobile harass to outmanuever the mech army and punish it when its out of position...that would be pretty damn awesome. I'm not sure the exact numbers being shifted are exactly right yet, but I think that this is definitely the right direction to go.
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On September 24 2013 23:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I'd LOVE it if PvT got a new dynamic, where instead of Bio+Viking+Medivac vs. Protoss AOE deathball being the only way anyone plays, Terran mech became viable again. In BW, Protoss couldn't take a Tank-heavy mech army head on, unless they hit a shitload of really good storms...but Protoss had lots of ways to outmanuever the mech army and inflict punishing harassment. If SC2 ever reached a point where a Tank-focused mech army could consistently beat Protoss ground armies, but Protoss was able to use prism play, stargate units and other mobile harass to outmanuever the mech army and punish it when its out of position...that would be pretty damn awesome. I'm not sure the exact numbers being shifted are exactly right yet, but I think that this is definitely the right direction to go.
Not going to happen, with the snowballing effect SC2 has.
On September 24 2013 22:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision. It only follows the "DB & DK design philosophy" of faster is better and more exciting. I dont buy that and think that there is such a thing as "too fast" ... which is most certainly true for the kill speed of those super tight army clumps.
yes and no
yes game is to fast, so units have to become relatively faster to become worth microing or have a range advantage, neither of this has a DT, which is why it makes sense here
no, because the alternative would be to slow down the other units, which will obviously not going to happen.
Also don't forget please, that terrans still have Concussive Shells,which slows down a DT back down at ~1,65 speed on hit.
The whining in this regard by terrans is way to big.
Actually this change may have impact most on PvP, because Protoss units are generally slow and so is the observer.
Dont see a problem for Zerg, as they are still fast enough, and detection is available quickly (Overseer is now faster remember?)
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On September 24 2013 23:35 summerloud wrote:
wow. all of these changes are awesome. big thumbs up to blizzard, and cant wait for the implementation, i hope none of the changes gets dropped, although the DT speed buff might be too much
also, id like to see a slight nerf to rauders if they buff the tank, to really push terran off boring mmm in pvt. but since rauders never seem to get nerfed since beta days i guess it wont happen...
also, a buff to BCs would be nice
I would wait until after the upgrade buff goes through. You don't want to mess up the game by "double buff" to many units.
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On September 24 2013 22:25 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Spread-out tanks work just fine under blinding clouds, its not like zerg has 5-6 clouds ready every time.
Actually they do, because Vipers get free energy from consume.
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On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant.
It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it.
Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what?
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On September 24 2013 23:50 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I'd LOVE it if PvT got a new dynamic, where instead of Bio+Viking+Medivac vs. Protoss AOE deathball being the only way anyone plays, Terran mech became viable again. In BW, Protoss couldn't take a Tank-heavy mech army head on, unless they hit a shitload of really good storms...but Protoss had lots of ways to outmanuever the mech army and inflict punishing harassment. If SC2 ever reached a point where a Tank-focused mech army could consistently beat Protoss ground armies, but Protoss was able to use prism play, stargate units and other mobile harass to outmanuever the mech army and punish it when its out of position...that would be pretty damn awesome. I'm not sure the exact numbers being shifted are exactly right yet, but I think that this is definitely the right direction to go. Not going to happen, with the snowballing effect SC2 has.
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:
Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what?
He simply understands that pure mech is dead and bio+tank is the only option.
They are fed up with bio +mines so trying to ressurect tank+bio.
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I don't think this Siege Tank change is spot on, I think the whole unit has a massive identity crisis and seeing what the other races have to counter it the damage output of tanks was never the core issue.
Other than that I like the patch though 
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It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it.
If it was nothing but a cooldown buff to tanks I'd agree thats insufficient, but they're also combining mech and air upgrades. Fully upgraded Vikings can shred mutas and zone vipers. Obviously Zerg can still counterattack, but thats one of the main features of mech play, stength in head-on engagemenets but vulnerability to counterattacking and harass.
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really like that they are trying to change the game. as it is the meta is becoming really stale
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On September 24 2013 23:50 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I'd LOVE it if PvT got a new dynamic, where instead of Bio+Viking+Medivac vs. Protoss AOE deathball being the only way anyone plays, Terran mech became viable again. In BW, Protoss couldn't take a Tank-heavy mech army head on, unless they hit a shitload of really good storms...but Protoss had lots of ways to outmanuever the mech army and inflict punishing harassment. If SC2 ever reached a point where a Tank-focused mech army could consistently beat Protoss ground armies, but Protoss was able to use prism play, stargate units and other mobile harass to outmanuever the mech army and punish it when its out of position...that would be pretty damn awesome. I'm not sure the exact numbers being shifted are exactly right yet, but I think that this is definitely the right direction to go. Not going to happen, with the snowballing effect SC2 has.
This comes down to the very same issue that had plagued SC2 since initial release. The colossus is a poorly designed unit that serves as the staple to the entire Protoss army. Why is the Colossus made to be so powerful? Because terran bio is so strong, Protoss would never be able go engage without them. Why is bio so powerful? Because blizzard didn't like the slow movements of terran mech armies, so they decided to make the Marine, not the siege tank, the core of the Terran army. What about Zerg? If you remember, the race was in shambles through Alpha, and at release, it was still fairly obvious how under developed the race was, so they gave them roaches until they were deemed OP, then they just kinda left things as they were so we got the infestor, and here we are 3 years later with the same BS, because Blizzard didnt want to remake broodwar...
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The colossus is a poorly designed unit that serves as the staple to the entire Protoss army
The Colossus is a weaker part of the metagame than its ever been--Vipers punish it hard, and so do Tempests, so unless you're hitting a specific timing its not that good in PvZ or PvP. Its only really good in PvT still...and if mech and air upgrades are combined, then Terran will actually be able to pair a strong ground army with fully upgraded vikings, which will absolutely shred Colossi.
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On September 24 2013 23:17 Leafty wrote:
What if DT speed got increased with zealot speed? That way the unit is not too strong in the early game.
Apart from the orcale costs, the other changes are things to try.
You mean DT Charge? I actually like that idea... Makes them a better harassing unit in the mid to late game, but at the same time, doesn't make them imba like the proposed changes that David Kim suggested.
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On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing.
sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage.
If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army.
Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that.
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On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that.
I agree the numbers may need tweaking, and I think they should take another look at the Oracle speed/acceleration buff. Not only does that make it much easier to keep the unit alive throughout the game so it pays for itself, provided you have good multitasking and micro, but the Oracle's low acceleration currently limits its harass capabilities because it has to constantly stop and start when attacking units that move away from it, which wastes lots of energy. Raising the speed and acceleration will make it more dangerous, easier to keep alive, and more rewarding to players with the apm to micro it throughout the entire game. I think thats both more effective and more interesting than a simple cost reduction.
But overall, I think a design goal of "buff mech in general and the Tank specifically, but also buff non deathbally, mobile Protoss harass units" is absolutely the right direction.
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On September 25 2013 00:01 dargul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:
Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what? He simply understands that pure mech is dead and bio+tank is the only option. They are fed up with bio +mines so trying to ressurect tank+bio.
Pure mech is a lot better than bio/tank right now though, even if it forces you to turtle more.
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On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it. Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what?
Pure mech in SC2 is, in my opinion, boring to watch, boring to play and boring to play against I certainly don't want to watch a Lucifron vs Gowser ever again. And I believe that's why they try not to promote this type of play, because they don't want to have more death ball, passive game. Sure, you can buff mech to make it viable again, but it won't make interesting game like it was in Brood War.
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On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that.
What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech?
Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes.
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On September 25 2013 00:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that. What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech? Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes.
If Protoss goes straight air, then Terran can stay even on air upgrades with them while having the option to tech switch into a ground army that will be much better upgraded than the Protoss ground army.
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On September 25 2013 00:15 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it. Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what? Pure mech in SC2 is, in my opinion, boring to watch, boring to play and boring to play against I certainly don't want to watch a Lucifron vs Gowser ever again. And I believe that's why they try not to promote this type of play, because they don't want to have more death ball, passive game. Sure, you can buff mech to make it viable again, but it won't make interesting game like it was in Brood War.
Mvp vs Dimaga was an amazing game though and is probably one of the most entertaining game to date.
The problematic of the turtling can be solved later but having mech viable improves the diversity of the matchup as a whole.
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