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On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings.
Then place Vikings ahead of the Tanks a bit and 1-2 Vipers die. But again, I'd have to test it. We're stating theories, not facts.
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Due to the hard counter nature of SC2, if you buff one unit, sooner or later you will have to buff its counter unit.
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So we see burrowed roaches max timings against toss again (((((: and they will be so much stronger then they are now..
Plz blizzard, reconsider this idea 
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On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings.
Spread-out tanks work just fine under blinding clouds, its not like zerg has 5-6 clouds ready every time. Infestors and swarm hosts are the real problems of terran mech, millions of free infested terrans and locusts make it impossible to make mech costeffective. Although with upgrade merge, terran can build some BCs and snipe down those iffy infestors and swarmhosts.
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Everything seems pretty legit here.
Glad they are making a few changes to some key points in SC2 that are growing stagnant quickly.
Only thing that I believe is iffy is the DT speed change as others seem to agree. Maybe slightly faster....but honestly, protoss needs some other kind of option than faster DTs
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On September 24 2013 22:25 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Spread-out tanks work just fine under blinding clouds, its not like zerg has 5-6 clouds ready every time. Infestors and swarm hosts are the real problems of terran mech, millions of free infested terrans and locusts make it impossible to make mech costeffective. Although with upgrade merge, terran can build some BCs and snipe down those iffy infestors and swarmhosts.
In that case tank rate of fire buff should make all the difference.
Ha! Beat you Antylamon
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On September 24 2013 22:25 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Spread-out tanks work just fine under blinding clouds, its not like zerg has 5-6 clouds ready every time. Infestors and swarm hosts are the real problems of terran mech, millions of free infested terrans and locusts make it impossible to make mech costeffective. Although with upgrade merge, terran can build some BCs and snipe down those iffy infestors and swarmhosts.
The Tank rate of fire buff will probably help too.
EDIT: Ninja'd lol
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On September 24 2013 22:25 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Spread-out tanks work just fine under blinding clouds, its not like zerg has 5-6 clouds ready every time. Infestors and swarm hosts are the real problems of terran mech, millions of free infested terrans and locusts make it impossible to make mech costeffective. Although with upgrade merge, terran can build some BCs and snipe down those iffy infestors and swarmhosts.
I think that merging the upgrades will free up a lot of gas that will allow terrans to get that necessary infrastructure to make those tech switches. I am interested to see what the effect of 3/3 BCs coming with 3/3 ground will do, because it does shorten the time it takes to get there.
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The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision.
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On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision.
And they have also shown in past patches that they are willing to put in a lesser version of a tested change. The WP buff was not the full speed change that they tested.
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On September 24 2013 22:21 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Then place Vikings ahead of the Tanks a bit and 1-2 Vipers die. But again, I'd have to test it. We're stating theories, not facts.
As long as your gentlemen´s agreement prevents the zerg from getting any anti air, I see your plan working very well! 
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On September 24 2013 22:34 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:21 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:
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So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all!
you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though. Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Then place Vikings ahead of the Tanks a bit and 1-2 Vipers die. But again, I'd have to test it. We're stating theories, not facts. As long as your gentlemen´s agreement prevents the zerg from getting any anti air, I see your plan working very well!
If there are both Mutas/Corruptors and Vipers, then Terran has lost already by letting Zerg get way too much gas.
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Propose 2 gimmicky Protoss changes.
Propose 1 huge zerg change.
Seems typical, if they go through I'm sure we will see a surge of protoss wins until people figure out the new builds and go back to where we started
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Why the sudden change David Kim?
I've been saying the Widow Mine is a terrible unit to watch and the Siege Tank is awesome since... HOTS Beta.... and just now you realize this, that Terran "may be more interesting..." I thought Siege Tanks was, in your own words, boring?
I guess better late than never... too bad I stop watching and play SC2. Gives me hope for a return to SC2.
On another note, the Oracle change can't go through. Two base Oracle all-ins are already very strong versus Terran (Hero vs Select at MLG) and this makes them even stronger.
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On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision.
It only follows the "DB & DK design philosophy" of faster is better and more exciting. I dont buy that and think that there is such a thing as "too fast" ... which is most certainly true for the kill speed of those super tight army clumps.
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tank buff in comparison to the mine nerf, is too little
2.4 would have been better
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On September 24 2013 21:10 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:59 Rabiator wrote:On September 24 2013 20:24 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 20:23 Boonbag wrote:On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that. somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most There is no one better in the community to report on the things the highest level pros are dealing with than Artosis. The man watches more starcraft 2 than any other human on the planet. I would be more worried if they weren't talking to Artosis at all. That might be true, but it also might not be true. Sometimes you can "see the light" better as an outsider who isnt connected to anything concerned. Progamers are actually the people who have the least problems with the game design, because they are training very hard every day. It is the casuals who are affected worst by the design of SC2, because it has been designed as an eSport and not a "fun game". Maps like BGH or any other FFA 8-player maps are impossible to play for fun, because it is far too easy to overrun someones base who has just gone to kill someone else; that wasnt as easy in BW and defending with a few units was possible. So asking first and foremost for the opinions of progamers might be the wrong way to start designing the game. Design it for FUN and then add elements into it that makes it interesting to watch as an eSport. BW had that, but is usually described as an undesirable game (by "damning" any BW:HD remake as a starting point for SC2) by people who havent played it because of two reasons: a) it is an OLD game (and new is automatically better in their mindset) and b) they are far too lazy to be bothered with a 12-unit-selection limit (because they have trained to be lazy). I really think that you need to try and look at your work from an objective and outside perspective every once in a while. Ask yourself tough questions about "does X make sense?" or "will this really improve things?" ... and answer them honestly. Game designers and other decision makers (politicians and managers) should do this, but seldom actually do. Personally I think Artosis is "too involved" to have a clear look at the game and its problems. He seems to think that the game can be fixed without a change to the general mechanics ... which clearly isnt possible. Blizzard has a very admirable method of having people of different departments that aren't directly involved with creating the design of the game playtest the game and give feedback. (as far as I know) I think an entire building full of game designers should be able to give good surface level criticism. That's limited though, and I think that there is a lot of value in criticism from pro gamers. Who cares if they're too involved and not objective? Part of being a game designer should be that you can take viewpoints like those and extract useful information out of it.
No, Artosis knows that the problems lie within the fundamentals of the game.
Also, Artosis knows that Blizzard isnt going to completely revamp fundamentals so he doesn't take that discussion and deem such debates irrelevant and non-constructive.
It is time to realize that Blizzard isnt making Starcraft 2 to become a significantly good esport game! It is us (the Community.) that is pushing for that and want that because we have experienced Brood War and we know nothing can top a really powerfull RTS when it comes to beeing competetive and entertaining to watch.
Blizzard is making Starcraft 2 to earn money, so they are focusing on selling copies of the game wich is the only major source of income they have from Starcraft 2.
Since +90% of copies of Starcraft 2 is sold to people who play the campaign and enjoy the story of Starcraft rather then playing it as an eSport then that is the main focus for Blizzard.
If you (like me.) arent happy at all with the fundamentals and gameplay of Starcraft 2 then we can just wait and hope that things will be different and that Blizzard takes another line with Starcraft 3 - And tries to make it a good competetive game.
Yes, some might argue that Blizzard is trying to make it as good as possible and put alot of effort into the game even post-release.
1. We have changes beeing made to the game all the time, Yes.
2. We have WCS, Yes.
But really, this is NOTHING!!
1. We have a 1-5 men team trying to improve the game, mostly to inject hope and keep a face outwards to the community making small changes that are actually never going to make this a good competetive game, like we had with Brood War.
2. We have Blizzard basically bringing already established organizations into partnership to basically do exactly what they already did but under a Blizzard flag. Yes there are benefits but maybe not as big as you might think. Oh and also since they made this game they just decide that noone competes with WCS and ruins the entire market. How many WCS seasons will we have in legacy of the void? Probably 1 year Before Blizzard release their stranglehold on the content because there simply isnt much benefit for them to be had when they have released the last expansion of Starcraft 2 and sold +90% of the copies that they are going to sell of it.
At that time, who's going to be running SC2 content? Nobody basically because the market will already be so dry after Blizzard has kept it under for years for own benefits.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision.
So, DT rush is a strategic decision that if unscouted can potentially deal huge damage or even end the game with the amount of workers/queens/addons killed, especially considering the fact that every Protoss sends 1-2 DTs in all expansions, so you have to deal with 3 fronts.
That makes cheesing way too forgiving if your opponent didn't manage to scout your DT rush, and due to the nature of DT buffs, they hit even faster nowadays, you can lose in a very cheesy way almost all ladder games. It was the same thing with triple Pylon block back in WoL.
EDIT: and tbh, laddering is a huge cheese/allin fest anyhow.
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On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision.
Bullshit, the only design philosophy it follows is the "everything must always go faster" rule that is a big part of the reason why SC2 isn't as good as it could be.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:30 Talin wrote:
The DT change follows the correct design philosophy, one that is so rarely seen in Blizzard patch notes lately. It puts emphasis on individual skill of both players in controlling their units, rather than only making a correct strategic decision. It only follows the "DB & DK design philosophy" of faster is better and more exciting. I dont buy that and think that there is such a thing as "too fast" ... which is most certainly true for the kill speed of those super tight army clumps.
Slower in mechanically easier game does not work!
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EPT
