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I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/
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On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff.
You're so wrong protoss lategame is just plain IMBA if you aren't called Teaja. Terran gets nerfed into the ground yet again, mech is still utter trash vs zerg and protoss with these changes and now without the mine splash zerg can yet again YOLO SWAG 1a into tank armies just like they did in wol. If these changes go through terran players will go extinct. For all he people who're saying OMG yes tank armies are going to return in tvz, well sorry tanks are still utter garbage. It's so much fun doing 3 base allins again every game just like in wol. Turtle into a 14 min push and if you don't kill the opponent you lose. Tvz will become just as shitty for everyone as tvp, at least for everyone who isn't at the absolute top. Well, lets just continue to pull scv's in tvp since it the only chance to win if you don't have god tier micro. Doing that over and over again just to end games before the other races go out of control is soooooooooo much fun. Sounds like wol all over again with terran being garbage vs zerg and toss. No wonder why bw is still far more popular than sc2 in Korea. You could tell in Flash's interviews that he doesn't even remotely enjoys playing sc2. It's not only Flash but it's also that the casual players are starting to lose interest. The design of the whole game is utter trash to begin with. 1 Race has incredible strong and gimmicky allins and on top of that they can also just do nothing but defend and then at 200/200 1a and win. While you can't 1a in tvz now the 1a option is going to return, just mark my words. Ling, bling + muta's shits all over tank armies and with the new ultralisks you can just make some units 1a and win. What good skill toi have. All of this of nerfed mines and trash tanks. Well, I'm almost done with sc2, I'll put my time into more enjoyable things like anime and playing piano and guitar and learning new languages. Or just stick with Osu! And for all the people saying 'haha we won't miss you' I won't miss you either, and when enough people like me lose interest the scene will become smaller and smaller and then you'll get al those people yelling "OMG ESPORTS IS DYING!!!". No surprise if the games they play for money are no fun at all. The scene is kept alive by casuals and not the pro's.
If this continues this game will end just like wol, micro vs 1a which isn't enjoyable at all. I've already been there, the end of wol was such a joke. And then they even thought they were good, lmao. And I still see a lot of people who just refuse to do some basic micro and 1a and then complain everything dies. Well guess what in wol everything died even if you tried to micro against broodlord infestor a composition that didn't require any advanced input at all. Now it's the same vs storm, BOOM your whole army dies in 2 seconds WP!! And you can't even allin before the 10 minute mark. I'm done here, I don't want to post in balance discussions ever again. I'm only going to use the general forums from now on. Getting mad over a game isn't worth it at all.
User was warned for this post
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1. Increased DT speed seems very random. Thumbs down
2. The problem with oracle isnt their cost but their lategame utility. If blizzard want to adress this issue an upgrade which increases some utility or adds additional an utility would be a more proper way of fixing the issue. All a costreduction does is make early-game harass more viable without making the unit any better in later stages. Thumbs down
The rest seems like it could work out. However, reducing minesplash that much will most likely skew balance too much but I guess well see (and oh yes we will if they implement that without more substantial buffs for tanks or other units) and at least then they can buff something else so its not necessarily always 4m vs lingbling muta.
It's good that they're thinking about changes at least.
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On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level.
The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo.
On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/
That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that.
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Imagine an invisible stimmed marine with 50dmg that is in your Mineralline Mother of God.
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4713 Posts
On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that.
Fair enough, thanks for the context.
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On September 24 2013 20:08 schaf wrote:I wonder how exactly i should be able to kill a DT in my base when he is as fast as my stimmed marines? Together with speedprism there will be no catching these guys 
turret and widow mine. problem solved.
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mech/air upgrades: i'm unsure, and i would rather have tanks scale stronger with upgrades.
widow mine splash: far too much. it's a brutal nerf. i'm not a fan of the widow mine at all really, but this would stomp it into the ground real hard
tank attack speed: siege tanks are not and are not supposed to be about sustained high dps and it would take away much from their feeling. buff damage instead and let immortals fuck tanks in the ass, thats what they are supposed to do. large numbers of tanks (close to max army) kill large numbers of immortals anyways..
my 5 cents would be to increase tank siege damage until it reaches the next upgrade breakpoint. if too brutal, LOWER attack speed instead. front loaded damage is just better. also, reintroduce siege tech. tanks are not problematic in any matchup and as someone before me stated, tanks should totally FLATTEN bio in straight up engagements in TVT.
oracle cost: oracles are annoying as hell for ppl that suck, not so much otherwise. i like the change. ppl that suck can really just go blind turrets every game, no point in refining perfect BO's if you suck anyway.
DT speed : dts are pretty much like oracles, they fuck noobs. noobs can get blind detection without being much behind since everybody sucks down there (here). DT needs pro use that isn't inca. approved
roach tunneling: 100% yes. since invisible = invulnerable, noobs will get fucked over by this too, but again. blind detection is good for noobs. all over the map. no marines or hellions, only turrets
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I will defently enjoy the 60,5% reduce in damage of the widow mine. I never liked that unit that much.
Thy
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On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that.
somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most
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On September 24 2013 20:23 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that. somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most
There is no one better in the community to report on the things the highest level pros are dealing with than Artosis. The man watches more starcraft 2 than any other human on the planet. I would be more worried if they weren't talking to Artosis at all.
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On September 24 2013 20:09 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game... League is insignificant, the real skill level is at the pro level, I base all my judgments on that, not my own experience since anything bellow that is corrupted in the sense the players aren't ever playing at their maximum potential. I highly doubt you are coming into these changes open minded, you started off your statement by defending these idiotic changes without addressing them directly but trying to throw the blame on how "OP" WMs are, completely discounting the context of the situations and the tools you have at your disposal now. You also continue to fail to address how good, or bad the changes are at all in any form what so ever, no context as to what situations they may be beneficial, what context they might be bad, repercussions on MUs, timings etc. If you come in here and you challenge the current opinion about these proposed changes you better be ready to defend them with more then just your high master rank, not explaining it at all, not participating in the theory crafting is nearly as bad as condemning the changes without any tests at all. As far as I'm concerned your ladder experience is corrupting your better judgment. Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are.
You completely and utterly contradict yourself when you say things like,Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are" especially. Really? And I simply don't feel like arguing with a person who proclaims I call widow mines OP when I simply state the nature of their mechanics. And you think in game experience doesn't matter? you think Pros only matter? Cool tell me who won the last major tournament. Whats that it was a TvT? Im not calling ANY race imbalanced, on the contrary I think the game is relatively balanced at the moment, all im saying is people should not mindlessly condemn proposed changes without waiting and seeing their actual effect. Remember several months ago oracles got a movespeed buff and the whole world was going to end cause oracle rushes vs terran were going to be "broken"...yeah Im sure we all remember how little effect it really had. Wait and see for the changes to be implemented as like I said its very different on paper as it is in the actual game. I have my opinions and ideas as to how these changes will pan out and to be honest the reduction of oracles gas cost to 100 will not make them more attractive, but as for the rest of them I shan't explain them to the likes of you who is so passive aggressive for no reason...
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4713 Posts
On September 24 2013 20:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:23 Boonbag wrote:On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that. somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most There is no one better in the community to report on the things the highest level pros are dealing with than Artosis. The man watches more starcraft 2 than any other human on the planet. I would be more worried if they weren't talking to Artosis at all.
I think he meant it as a joke and small stab at Artosis and his love for mech + hate for bio play. But yeah, there is no one better to talk to in regards to balance and design related stuff then Artosis as far as SC2 goes, he just gets it.
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On September 24 2013 20:24 Skiblet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:09 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game... League is insignificant, the real skill level is at the pro level, I base all my judgments on that, not my own experience since anything bellow that is corrupted in the sense the players aren't ever playing at their maximum potential. I highly doubt you are coming into these changes open minded, you started off your statement by defending these idiotic changes without addressing them directly but trying to throw the blame on how "OP" WMs are, completely discounting the context of the situations and the tools you have at your disposal now. You also continue to fail to address how good, or bad the changes are at all in any form what so ever, no context as to what situations they may be beneficial, what context they might be bad, repercussions on MUs, timings etc. If you come in here and you challenge the current opinion about these proposed changes you better be ready to defend them with more then just your high master rank, not explaining it at all, not participating in the theory crafting is nearly as bad as condemning the changes without any tests at all. As far as I'm concerned your ladder experience is corrupting your better judgment. Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are. You completely and utterly contradict yourself when you say things like,Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are" especially. Really? And I simply don't feel like arguing with a person who proclaims I call widow mines OP when I simply state the nature of their mechanics. And you think in game experience doesn't matter? you think Pros only matter? Cool tell me who won the last major tournament. Whats that it was a TvT? Im not calling ANY race imbalanced, on the contrary I think the game is relatively balanced at the moment, all im saying is people should not mindlessly condemn proposed changes without waiting and seeing their actual effect. Remember several months ago oracles got a movespeed buff and the whole world was going to end cause oracle rushes vs terran were going to be "broken"...yeah Im sure we all remember how little effect it really had. Wait and see for the changes to be implemented as like I said its very different on paper as it is in the actual game. I have my opinions and ideas as to how these changes will pan out and to be honest the reduction of oracles gas cost to 100 will not make them more attractive, but as for the rest of them I shan't explain them to the likes of you who is so passive aggressive for no reason...
But you have to realize that at the very least SOME proposed changes sound so dumb in theory already, that there's no need to wait and test things out practically... That would be like proposing eating not with your mouth, but with your anus: Do you really need to check it out or do you already think that won't be necessary as it just sounds stupid enough?
I don't want to be disrespectful, I'm simply trying to appeal to common sense... And some ideas regarding these changes just don't meet expectations at all.
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On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets.Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are.
Why do you assume stim timing is that important? Maybe after mech buff terran will get raven sooner to counter dt drops. I think you're having tunnel vision, like if Blizzard buffed dt speed and thats it. Everything might change around, its too early to call something broken.
If its just your opinion then state it like your opinion, not like a blunt fact.
On September 24 2013 20:41 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:24 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 20:09 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game... League is insignificant, the real skill level is at the pro level, I base all my judgments on that, not my own experience since anything bellow that is corrupted in the sense the players aren't ever playing at their maximum potential. I highly doubt you are coming into these changes open minded, you started off your statement by defending these idiotic changes without addressing them directly but trying to throw the blame on how "OP" WMs are, completely discounting the context of the situations and the tools you have at your disposal now. You also continue to fail to address how good, or bad the changes are at all in any form what so ever, no context as to what situations they may be beneficial, what context they might be bad, repercussions on MUs, timings etc. If you come in here and you challenge the current opinion about these proposed changes you better be ready to defend them with more then just your high master rank, not explaining it at all, not participating in the theory crafting is nearly as bad as condemning the changes without any tests at all. As far as I'm concerned your ladder experience is corrupting your better judgment. Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are. You completely and utterly contradict yourself when you say things like,Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are" especially. Really? And I simply don't feel like arguing with a person who proclaims I call widow mines OP when I simply state the nature of their mechanics. And you think in game experience doesn't matter? you think Pros only matter? Cool tell me who won the last major tournament. Whats that it was a TvT? Im not calling ANY race imbalanced, on the contrary I think the game is relatively balanced at the moment, all im saying is people should not mindlessly condemn proposed changes without waiting and seeing their actual effect. Remember several months ago oracles got a movespeed buff and the whole world was going to end cause oracle rushes vs terran were going to be "broken"...yeah Im sure we all remember how little effect it really had. Wait and see for the changes to be implemented as like I said its very different on paper as it is in the actual game. I have my opinions and ideas as to how these changes will pan out and to be honest the reduction of oracles gas cost to 100 will not make them more attractive, but as for the rest of them I shan't explain them to the likes of you who is so passive aggressive for no reason... But you have to realize that at the very least SOME proposed changes sound so dumb in theory already, that there's no need to wait and test things out practically... That would be like proposing eating not with your mouth, but with your anus: Do you really need to check it out or do you already think that won't be necessary as it just sounds stupid enough? I don't want to be disrespectful, I'm simply trying to appeal to common sense... And some ideas regarding these changes just don't meet expectations at all.
+50 health to ultralisk was dumb since it was raw increase of power which had no counterplay
faster dts, are manageable since you can place turrets smarter, build raven, build couple of marauders with concussive shells. Turret+widow mine still owns dts.
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Blizzard: We needed a way to console Terrans from the widow mine nerf, so here is a tank buff that doesn't really change anything, especially when Zergs have blinding cloud
Blizzard: In addition to Protoss being almost impervious to all-ins, we also want to provide Protoss with a more dynamic variety of gimmicks.
Blizzard: This is only fair, since Terrans could easily just get a raven by the 7 minute mark, and Zergs can just slap down some spores and spines at every base.
Blizzard: Lategame TvP is fine, because hellbats work against archon zealot.
Blizzard: To all the T crybabies, just suck it up and play like Taeja.
Blizzard: We also like roaches.
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On September 24 2013 20:00 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game... I wonder if you would be as open minded if they reduced the radius of storm by the same amount or made archons lose their bonus dmg vs bio while buffing banshee speed to 3,375. Would still want to see how this works out? The changes we have here are as obviously stupid as those I mentioned.
well done. i couldnt have put it better myself.
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On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets.Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. Why do you assume stim timing is that important? Maybe after mech buff terran will get raven sooner to counter dt drops. I think you're having tunnel vision, like if Blizzard buffed dt speed and thats it. Everything might change around, its too early to call something broken. If its just your opinion then state it like your opinion, not like a blunt fact.
The point with Stim is that it's the best thing to have against DTs when playing Bio, because it makes Bio faster (so it can actually catch up) and makes it powerfull enough to take out a DT instead of being cut to pieces.
Getting early Ravens blindly when playing Mech, makes you vulnerable to any other cheese, because it's very costly gas wise so you can't have anything else gas dependent and the Raven itself doesn't do all to much damage. Starting to tech to Raven after you scout a DT shrine can be too late.
On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:
faster dts, are manageable since you can place turrets smarter, build raven, build couple of marauders with concussive shells. Turret+widow mine still owns dts.
A turret can be wiped by a single DT in ~10 seconds. A Turret+a widowmine owns 1 DT in 40 seconds. The rest of the DT drop will cuddle the workers while the Mine is reloading.
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Wow widow mine nerf by 60% That's not a balance change... that's nerfing into the ground. In return we get 11% faster siege tank damage. Seems fair o_O (and why the hell attackspeed and not damage. It's the single shots that count not the sustained dps...)
Oracle cost reduction is so bad. It doesn't mean we will see more in lategame but rather earlier and safer proxy oracles...
Turbo DT's will be really annoying or fun depending on the side you are on 
I wish they would replace David Kim finally. All these random changes...
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On September 24 2013 20:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:23 Boonbag wrote:On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that. somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most There is no one better in the community to report on the things the highest level pros are dealing with than Artosis. The man watches more starcraft 2 than any other human on the planet. I would be more worried if they weren't talking to Artosis at all.
That might be true, but it also might not be true.
Sometimes you can "see the light" better as an outsider who isnt connected to anything concerned. Progamers are actually the people who have the least problems with the game design, because they are training very hard every day. It is the casuals who are affected worst by the design of SC2, because it has been designed as an eSport and not a "fun game". Maps like BGH or any other FFA 8-player maps are impossible to play for fun, because it is far too easy to overrun someones base who has just gone to kill someone else; that wasnt as easy in BW and defending with a few units was possible.
So asking first and foremost for the opinions of progamers might be the wrong way to start designing the game. Design it for FUN and then add elements into it that makes it interesting to watch as an eSport. BW had that, but is usually described as an undesirable game (by "damning" any BW:HD remake as a starting point for SC2) by people who havent played it because of two reasons:
a) it is an OLD game (and new is automatically better in their mindset) and
b) they are far too lazy to be bothered with a 12-unit-selection limit (because they have trained to be lazy).
I really think that you need to try and look at your work from an objective and outside perspective every once in a while. Ask yourself tough questions about "does X make sense?" or "will this really improve things?" ... and answer them honestly. Game designers and other decision makers (politicians and managers) should do this, but seldom actually do.
Personally I think Artosis is "too involved" to have a clear look at the game and its problems. He seems to think that the game can be fixed without a change to the general mechanics ... which clearly isnt possible.
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