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On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3
Well MC complained about TvZ, so clearly there are some openminded pros. I guess Blizzard just didn't put much effort and did things own way.
LaLush had several great ideas, non were listened or addressed.
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IMO, P is defensive not because they dont have another choice but they r offer with tools that make turtling become too cost effective, with DT and Oracle buff, now they can do both with less cost, we just gonna see more 2 base all in PvZ with oracle first to get some free drone and with overseer now not able to catch up w/ DT, and they r so cheap, PvZ gonna be even worse than now. And if DT can be that fast while not make burrowed Roach the same speed, since they r more vulnerable than DT when burrowed (cause of delay after unborrowed ). Other stuff should make ZvT more interesting, expect to see more MMMT come into play
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4713 Posts
On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3
I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level.
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No no no no!!
No more nerfs like this against the Terrans, they are already weak in both matchups against the opposing races.
Nerfing the widow mine will be detrimental in TvZ.
The Siege Tank buff is going to do nothing to compensate. Increasing the attackspeed does not change any of the fundamental problems with making tanks against either Zerg or Protoss.
Against Zerg specifically Terran will lose all the map controll that they currently take advantage of and is almost the sole reason Terran are winning games against Zerg at all.
With the new mid-game thats going to be proposed by these changes the Terran army will be slower and easilly out manouvered by the Muta-ling-blind units that the Zerg is making. Also the mutalisk will completely dominate the matchup with worse window mines and I feel this will help Zerg go to a hive late-game every single time they dont get cheesed and just crush Terrans.
The only reason Terrans are winning games over Zergs at the moment is that they can controll the map and put constant preasure throughout the mid-game. They are not doing this every single game because its imbalanced, its because there isnt options for the Terran. If you try to make the matchup more diverse you have to make fundamental changes to other avenues for the Terrans. Make the late-game transitions way stronger to promote Terrans to play other gameplans other then puting so much preasure all over the map in the mid-game that the game never reaches end game. Terrans do not want to go there because they will lose!
The late game transitions the Terrans can make are simply way too weak and the Siege tank attackrate change isnt going to change that AT ALL!
Also please do not mess with the most exciting and skill promoting matchup that you have in the game at the moment. TvZ is the most exciting match-up to Watch right now because it promotes such a high pace and so much controll and skill. Its so intense when the best guys plays it that if you miss an overlord as a Zerg player, you get over-run by the Terran, or a supply depot as the Terran player, your reinforcements come a little bit too late and the Zerg overrun your army and take the game. This is IDEAL! The matchup is intense and gives that kind of thin line nervy feeling to the viewers wich is what we have been longing for in SC2 and wasnt there in any matchup in WOL. Please do not change this!
You want more diversity? I dont think so!! please reconsider David Kim!
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Uhh. so.. From the polls I realized two things
1: People hate widow mines
2: People hate protoss
I dont really like any of the changes, honestly. DT's need blink :D
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Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff.
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On September 24 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 Well MC complained about TvZ, so clearly there are some openminded pros. I guess Blizzard just didn't put much effort and did things own way. LaLush had several great ideas, non were listened or addressed.
LaLush's ideas have the problem that they have been tested with the FRB mod. And they have been said to be insufficient and need a lot of additional changes.
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Check out how LoL designers interact with community to re-design champion Rengar: link
Mind that its open discussion with LoL players, who are believed to be very toxic and chaotic. But riot does it nevertheless. And so far the game is constantly improving.
I can't understand why Blizzard wouldn't do the same with sc2 community?
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And so the trend with fixing the game by making everything faster continues.
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On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff.
Are you seriously comparing DTs and WidowMines? Yes, getting to DT drops does cost some more than getting to WM drops, but a mine will kill between 1 and what... 6 workers (if you get a really lucky shot off) in 40 seconds. A DT can kill about 20 workers in the same time. It can also take out turrets, while WMs can't even shoot at Cannons.
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4713 Posts
On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff.
Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up.
DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets.
Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea.
And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage.
From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are.
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Finally after 3 years, they buffed the tank... Better late than never. For the other changes I'm not sure.
Widow mines needed a nerf really badly , so this is a good step.
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On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff.
Can happen to terran too. 2seconds not on point, eating a storm on the army, gg! In SC2 you can lose games with just being not on point for a second with all 3 races. This is not a thing only for protoss so stop crying.
If those changes are everything David Kim has in store to improve the gameplay and balance, then he should be instantly fired.
These changes are ALL bad except for the roach buff. These changes do all create various balance issues and do NOT solve anything (except for widow mines being OP perhaps.)
Why didn´t they just let terran continue to play WoL from the start of HotS? Why did they bait us terran players with those new units, that actually solved some problems of the race, if they nerf them into oblivion anyways after some time? I fully regret not switching to protoss with the release of HotS now.
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On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are.
No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game...
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On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game...
I wonder if you would be as open minded if they reduced the radius of storm by the same amount or made archons lose their bonus dmg vs bio while buffing banshee speed to 3,375. Would still want to see how this works out? The changes we have here are as obviously stupid as those I mentioned.
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DT Speeed is random. Also the Oracle. Protoss itself is the "sit back deathball making" race, and playes best at that style. Blizzard needs to stop giving P "Opportunities" not to turtle, but remove the things that favor the turtle/timing based style itself.
Mech/Air Upgrades is a good idea because Protoss gets ugrades for everything robo /Gateway together and all Zerg ground benefits from carapace and melee/ranged, if unified vehicle attacks are too much will be seen.
AND HELL FUCKING YEAH THE SIEGE TANK IS BACK. I LIKE THAT. VERY . MUCH.
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On September 24 2013 20:00 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game... I wonder if you would be as open minded if they reduced the radius of storm by the same amount or made archons lose their bonus dmg vs bio while buffing banshee speed to 3,375. Would still want to see how this works out? The changes we have here are as obviously stupid as those I mentioned.
This one is stupid.
DT buff is arguable. Its not final and needs to be tested. And please stop acting like a know-all professor. Show some respect to people.
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On September 24 2013 20:03 plgElwood wrote:
DT Speeed is random. Also the Oracle. Protoss itself is the "sit back deathball making" race, and playes best at that style. Blizzard needs to stop giving P "Opportunities" not to turtle, but remove the things that favor the turtle/timing based style itself.
Mech/Air Upgrades is a good idea because Protoss gets ugrades for everything robo /Gateway together and all Zerg ground benefits from carapace and melee/ranged, if unified vehicle attacks are too much will be seen.
AND HELL FUCKING YEAH THE SIEGE TANK IS BACK. I LIKE THAT. VERY . MUCH.
I don't know, but I still consider positioning your army next to your base and sending out oracles for harass as turtling. Therefore, I don't really see the oracle as an opportunity to not turtle.
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I wonder how exactly i should be able to kill a DT in my base when he is as fast as my stimmed marines? Together with speedprism there will be no catching these guys 
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4713 Posts
On September 24 2013 19:53 Skiblet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets. Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. No actually I am simply coming into these changes open minded and actually waiting to see how they work out as there is an immense different between what you think the effect will be and what the real effect would be. May I also inquire as to what League you are in because I feel thats very important in being able to comprehend more clearly the actual effect such changes may have in the game? I am high master on the EU server, former GM on the US server so I have been through a bunch of changes throughout the past 3 years and I don't feel anyone who simply condemns completely and utterly said changes before they are even implemented into the test map can have much experience actually playing the game...
League is insignificant, the real skill level is at the pro level, I base all my judgments on that, not my own experience since anything bellow that is corrupted in the sense the players aren't ever playing at their maximum potential.
I highly doubt you are coming into these changes open minded, you started off your statement by defending these idiotic changes without addressing them directly but trying to throw the blame on how "OP" WMs are, completely discounting the context of the situations and the tools you have at your disposal now.
You also continue to fail to address how good, or bad the changes are at all in any form what so ever, no context as to what situations they may be beneficial, what context they might be bad, repercussions on MUs, timings etc. If you come in here and you challenge the current opinion about these proposed changes you better be ready to defend them with more then just your high master rank, not explaining it at all, not participating in the theory crafting is nearly as bad as condemning the changes without any tests at all.
As far as I'm concerned your ladder experience is corrupting your better judgment.
Besides I never said they shouldn't test these changes at all, I just said they where terrible, I'm actually very eager for them to go ahead and implement them on the test maps so that everyone can actually see for themselves just how bad they really are.
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