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On September 24 2013 18:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:36 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 18:26 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 18:16 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 18:04 boxerfred wrote:On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:[quote] If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine  [quote] Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation. Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically. @naruto It isn't important if zergs can adapt to this state of the game and still might win games. Important is that this unit that btw is quite cheap for what it does makes the whole ZvT matchup a pure mine defusing game. Also this unit denies other playstyles from terran as it is way stronger than the other styles. Therefore it is safe to say that the mine is op in its current state. It isn't important if terrans can adapt to this state of the game and still might win games. Important is that this unit that btw is quite cheap for what it does makes the whole TvP matchup a pure storm dodging game. Also this unit denies other playstyles from protoss as it is way stronger than the other styles. Therefore it is safe to say that the HT is op in its current state. HTs are no comparison to widow mines. They're harder/risky to get and not cheap either. If anything you should compare widow mines to banelings. Almost same cost and accessibility. That said, banelings are easy to use, widow mines require careful planning. Both are hard to play against. But widow mines have higher skill-cap with a potential of doing major damage to both ground and air. Banelings are less versatile. All in all this has nothing to do with balance. But I get where the complaints are coming from, window mines seem to be "unfair" for spectator. Similar to lurkers in BW. Pro-gamers compensated it with good micro. Therefore I also think widow mines should remain untouched. For the sake of better micro and higher skillcap. For the damage that they can do to a terran army? They are definitely cheap. I don't think any other unit at that cost has the same game turning potential. And that is the problem with MSC, It used to be risky teching to storms quickly, but not anymore.
You are not complaining about HTs, are you?
And MSc is just a bad unit. Its sort of a bandage to PvT matchup. They didn't wanna mess with sentries so they just added nexus cannon. Very simple and cheap solution.
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On September 24 2013 18:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:36 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 18:26 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 18:16 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 18:04 boxerfred wrote:On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:[quote] If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine [quote] Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation. Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically. @naruto It isn't important if zergs can adapt to this state of the game and still might win games. Important is that this unit that btw is quite cheap for what it does makes the whole ZvT matchup a pure mine defusing game. Also this unit denies other playstyles from terran as it is way stronger than the other styles. Therefore it is safe to say that the mine is op in its current state. It isn't important if terrans can adapt to this state of the game and still might win games. Important is that this unit that btw is quite cheap for what it does makes the whole TvP matchup a pure storm dodging game. Also this unit denies other playstyles from protoss as it is way stronger than the other styles. Therefore it is safe to say that the HT is op in its current state. HTs are no comparison to widow mines. They're harder/risky to get and not cheap either. If anything you should compare widow mines to banelings. Almost same cost and accessibility. That said, banelings are easy to use, widow mines require careful planning. Both are hard to play against. But widow mines have higher skill-cap with a potential of doing major damage to both ground and air. Banelings are less versatile. All in all this has nothing to do with balance. But I get where the complaints are coming from, window mines seem to be "unfair" for spectator. Similar to lurkers in BW. Pro-gamers compensated it with good micro. Therefore I also think widow mines should remain untouched. For the sake of better micro and higher skillcap. For the damage that they can do to a terran army? They are definitely cheap. I don't think any other unit at that cost has the same game turning potential. And that is the problem with MSC, It used to be risky teching to storms quickly, but not anymore.
I completeley agree on this one, what's exactly the risk of getting fast HTs? Protoss is completely safe now during the early-game... If they stockpile a lot of gas they are more than easily capable of dumping it into HTs -> Archons... The unit seems too cheap and versatile at the same time, all when it's way too easy to transition into.
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Netherlands4520 Posts
I feel like david kim is finally listening to the community's opinion that the game is simply boring, but I feel like these changes have absolutely nothing to do with actual current balance.
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On September 24 2013 18:44 Grumbels wrote:
I do wonder how people can applaud Blizzard for buffing units instead of nerfing them, as this super awesome balance philosophy, while completely overlooking that this patch, which has a barely noticeable buff to siege tanks, also completely breaks the widow mine. It's just so dumb, it hurts my brain every time someone says "buff, not nerf".
there are hellbats, thors, tanks, bc, raven and many more units. Blizzard should rather put these units to the battlefields of TvZ than focussing the whole matchup on the widow mine unit only.
The mine will still be effective. Mass mines for the whole length of the game for sure wont do it anymore after the patch. This is intended and a step in the right direction. At this point we are gonna see in which direction the matchup is going to and what further changes will be required. I predict a thor change (thor ground & air attack design/mechanics) and an infestor buff (range, infested terrans, neural parasit) is incoming 2014.
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On September 24 2013 18:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I feel like david kim is finally listening to the community's opinion that the game is simply boring, but I feel like these changes have absolutely nothing to do with actual current balance.
Thank you
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Netherlands4520 Posts
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better.
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On September 24 2013 18:53 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:44 Grumbels wrote:
I do wonder how people can applaud Blizzard for buffing units instead of nerfing them, as this super awesome balance philosophy, while completely overlooking that this patch, which has a barely noticeable buff to siege tanks, also completely breaks the widow mine. It's just so dumb, it hurts my brain every time someone says "buff, not nerf". there are hellbats, thors, tanks, bc, raven and many more units. Blizzard should rather put these units to the battlefields of TvZ than focussing the whole matchup on the widow mine unit only.The mine will still be effective. Mass mines for the whole length of the game for sure wont do it anymore after the patch. This is intended and a step in the right direction. At this point we are gonna see in which direction the matchup is going to and what further changes will be required. I predict a thor change (thor ground & air attack design/mechanics) and an infestor buff (range, infested terrans, neural parasit) is incoming 2014.
THIS. Every race should have multiple viable strategies against the others or the game will keep being too predictable.
Back on topic: maybe the change on the T upgrades will boost Mech play.
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hmm If they remove the visibility of the mine not targeting I wouldn't mind it being useless at stopping Zerg a-moving masses.
The Radius reduce is aimed at noobs so they can swarm-in giant amounts of units without being instant dead. While they assume pros will continue to trickle in small units against the mines to hold up the advancement. But the nerfed Mine radius is actually a buff for Terran in that region, because by sending in small groups into the minefeld that has to be protected by Marines you hope to deliver splash to the Terran as well.
The more I think about it the more I hate it as Zerg and Toss, because I actually abused the friendly fire the most, which will now be a less of an issue. (Poor Dimaga his strat is so epic)
So it is quiet a game defining change, it might really happen that mines can only be effectively swarmed by mass units, because their splash is just not enough anymore. So the long drawn out battle that is so awesome will turn into a 20 second deciding fight based on lucky baneling and mine hits.
Just hope they don't ruin the matchup again like in WoL, because they allowed the Zerg to rush to t3.
Also where is my 75 mineral turret ! every air unit got stronger and faster damn it and now DTs will glide over the ground like the wind. I want to set down double turrets like in BW. Turrets Turrets everywhere.
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Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
This change is good since it makes Hellbats without blue flame slightly useful in TvP if you go bio and upgrade viking attack anyway. If you go mech it is useful since it makes it a bit easier to fight Protoss if they transition into air.
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
Good idea but I suspect this in an over-nerf. Nerf the radious but nerf it less.
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7
Good idea but this is not enough. Tanks need a larger buff than this to be useful. Maybe have 2.5 attack period instead.
Oracle cost decreased from 150/150 to 150/100
It just makes Oracle cheese stronger but does not adress the limited usefulness of Oracles in the the lategame.
Dark Templar movement speed increased from 2.813 to 3.375
Good idea, but this is to fast.
Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25
Good idea.
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I wonder if the WM nerf will be so much effective...
In my personal experience i don't like WM so much because they often backfire on marines, But if they have less radius you can build a ton of them and don't bother about backfiring anymore... I don't know yet i need to test it.
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I personally think bio+mine vs ling+bling+muta is one of the most exciting things in the game from a spectator point of view. It requires constant micro from both sides and allows for long, continous battles rather than a few short key engagements. Isn't that exactly what a lot of people wanted? More micro? More drawn out skirmishes instead of two large armies clashing a few times to decide the game?
I understand that the balance in the MU isn't perfect, but the current dynamic is really cool from a design persepctive, IMO. I'd prefer if Blizzard found something else to change than nerfing widow mines, or at least consider a less drastic nerf.
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On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better.
Has ever Blizzard contacted you or your friends regarding balance?
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On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better.
This can only be achieved in several steps of patching. The first step for blizzard is daring to take more risks when doing changes. The minimal change policy doesn't work out well as it takes too long to make real changes happen. With the recent announcement blizzard might have recognized this and show that they are willing to do bigger changes, so there is hope that in the beginning of 2014 things will get improved.
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Please ... make the siege tank buff happen.
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Nothing balance related, but am I the only one who misses tanks with a slow but absurdly powerful shot?
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On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better.
I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue?
Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3
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Blizzard really need someone new for these balance changes. The game is dying slowly because of this radicals ideas. Boot david kim and bring someone else in with fresh ideas.
dt buff widow mine mega-nerf.. what has this guy been smoking?
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Widowmine splash should definitely go down.
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1) Well it simplifies things a lot. Except in TvT, I feel there aren't many cases where this comes into play (makes Sky Terran more appealing, and will likely result in a lot more mech TvT because of this). It makes a Broodlord tech switch against mech much weaker, that's about it.
2) Widow Mine nerf is WAYYYYYYYYYYY too much unless you give a good buff somewhere else. Siege Tanks buff isn't enough, not by a longshot, to compensate for such a massive nerf. Not saying Widow Mines shouldn't be nerfed... Just not to this degree without a compensating buff of equal magnitude somewhere else. Upgrade and Siege Tank buffs don't count, since, like I said, upgrades will only have an impact in TvT, and the Tank will STILL be too slow and supply inefficient.
3) Siege Tank buff is good, but not enough to compensate for massive Widow Mine nerf. One thing that needs to be done to the Tank is dropping the supply cost to 2. They're too supply inefficient.
4) Oracle buff is beyond retarded. Please stop encouraging more Protoss cheese. Reducing the gas cost of the Oracle makes spotting proxy Oracle a little more difficult (since now they can afford the MSC immediately while doing it). The strength of the Oracle is about on par with a Cloaked Banshee. The Cloaked Banshee is a fairly large investment (lots of gas and delays economy and tech). The Oracle should be as well.
5) DTs not being able to dodge scans isn't because they're too slow... It's because Protoss players aren't bothering to split their DTs up as much as they can except at the very top. For them to be able to dodge scans makes constant DT warp ins nearly unstoppable unless you start off with a Turret ring around your base. Overseers and Ravens won't be able to catch up, and Observers at least have cloak to help them sneak up on the DTs so you can see them. All in all, a VERY bad decision.
6) I'm neutral on the Roach buff. As Zerg, it's REALLY nice and fun. As Protoss, it's more annoying. As Terran... Dear God... Does Terran have to always open early Ravens in TvZ and TvP? That's absurd! Reduce the cost of Ravens, and that's fair, but it makes late game Terran absurdly powerful. I think, buffing invisible units is rarely a good idea. I like how I came with the conclusion it's bad, but I'm still neutral cause I know if it was me using that, I'd have a hell of a lot of fun abusing it...
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EPT
