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On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine  On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them.
Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now.
Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time.
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On September 24 2013 17:47 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. Your posting is a fucking joke and I can't understand your shit does not get moderated. After faking statistics before, you here post that in 18 tournaments we had 9 P in the finals, 12 T and 12 Z. So 33 players in 18 finals? Or counting Terrans only once in TvT do skew numbers? Again?
My bad, but I also counted PvP and ZvZ finals as 1 P/1Z. So there goes your missing 3 players. So you will have 10 Protoss in finals, 13 Terrans in finals and 13 Zergs in finals. I can see how I "faked" the statistics again, you are ridiculous and thats exactly the reason why I don't get moderated, clearly it was a honest mistake and does not make a difference in the point I made.
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On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time.
Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation.
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On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time.
would be awesome to see more viable options for both sides. sad thing is that with this patch roach hydra and SH play gets even worse vs bio tank. really hope they give hydras and locusts +bio dmg...like +1 per upgrade or so, something small but noticable.
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On September 24 2013 17:54 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:46 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now. And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8. How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events. IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4 WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3 Simple math: 6 tournaments = 12 finalists. If we weigh 1st place as 2points. Weigh 1.5 the 2nd place. It will be 21 points in total and protoss managed to take 3 points only. Pretty low... I can play with the numbers too. Pls. stop this nonsense discussion.
Lol, you started cherry picking the data first with your 'tournaments wins after June"... Why don't we look at more general data. Perhaps TvP win rate in Korean LAN tournaments/qualifiers? But every time we bring that up, Protoss use the "Well, Terran still WON the tournament".
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On September 24 2013 17:53 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:46 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc) were the storm landed automatically just because you have a HT? If the mines were detonated onto the clumped units because the player punishing the other's mistake, then that would be awesome. mid to late game PvT, terran ball vs toss ball has a lot to do with baiting storms, sniping, emping, feedback etc. the interaction between ghosts and HTs is interesting, medivac ghost drop emp, warp prism ghost storm, HT flanking etc. all have interesting and dynamic interaction. but do you recall any terran in recent matchup that manually use the mines to target fire the clumped banelings? A lot of games were win/loss just because the mine hit/not hit onto the clumped banelings. Zerg can't micro out from a mine hit once they engage and the engagements are too fast for terran to even attempt to manually target fire with mine. not all people aren't saying 4M is way too good and can't be over run, some would, I will leave my opinion to myself. During bio tank thor vs ling baneling muta era, we know T is good because T is target firing the banelings with tanks, bio splitting and protecting tanks, leap frogging tanks, spreading out the tanks just enough etc. We know Z is good because the lings try for a surround, banelings not clumping up and spread to catchup with the bio, muta magic boxing the thor and target firing the tanks or chasing the bio depends on the situation. I will just leave these questions to you: Did the terran lose because he didn't target the mine well? Did he win because he target firing the mines or just too many mines and landed one luckily or zerg mis calcuating the mine numbers or just poor micro from zerg? Personally I want games to be won because the player is manually doing something to punish a mistake, not because the mistake was automatically punished just because he has a unit in position. I dislike a game where the key unit is one that can deal the game winning blow automatically while the other player has to kill it manually Then why is zealot charge automatic? One of the core issues with TvP late game is what you mentioned. The ghost/HT dance is fine, the stalker/viking/colossi target fire is good. But terrans have to stim and kite ON TOP of it. That fact that chargelots are balanced around stutter stepping which is fine in the mid game. But in late game situation, it is just much harder to keep up along with everything else.
I agree that certain Protoss mechanics just feel too simple to execute in mid-lategame situations opposed to Terrans' ... So I really don't get why they try to make Protoss early game even stronger (as much as they intended those proposed changes to adress late-game variety, they HAVE to be concerned about this)... Sorry, this sounds like massive balance whining, but I really want to understand the thought process behind this.
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Hm, I like what units/styles they want to buff.
I love the timing of the patch
But I'm not particulary amazed with the details.
1) Upgrade merge: it's an Ok change, but not "what Mech needs". 3/5
2) Widow mine nerf: without testing it we won't know for sure, but I think it's too much. And not sure if necessary, yet shouldn't be too much of a nerf vs anything but ling/bling. 3/5
3) Tank buff: yes, this is a possibility to buff tanks without screwing with numbers too much. Probably not enough but makes sense. 4/5
4) Oracle cost: I guess it will make oracles pop up more often. But not just as harass choice, but also as very coinflippy allin. 1/5
5) DT speed: If DT shrine would not have gotten cheaper that would be amazing. But with the cheap DT tech, I believe that DTs are already a very stable choice. Still I think this could be positive. 4/5
6) Yes, roach speed increased when burrow moving. As a zerg I think this is exactly what this upgrade needs. It won't magically make the upgrade great, but probably useful if you have the 150/150 and the burrow for it. 5/5
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btw somebody in bnet forums did the math and came out with 1,1 needs to be the number to have ANY affect. right now WM can kill 19 lings/banes/rines and any number that is 1,11 to the current number doesnt change that. so 1,1 is the magic number where the radius has an effect. with 1,1 its 11 lings/banes/rines killed.
(not my calculation so dont know if thats correct)
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On September 24 2013 17:47 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. You say the WM kills fun for most Zergs... What if I tell you the whole TvP matchup kills fun for most Terrans as it is always an uphill battle where if you might just lose most of your army in a blink of an eye to massive AoE from the Protoss arsenal?! Right, I guess that makes us all crybabies...
Well TvP needs to be increased just as well. Issues are:
- protoss all-ins too strong
- terran too strong units in the early game (bio, therefore protoss needs nexus cannon)
- protoss too strong deathballs in the late game
It comes down to bio being so strong too so that it needs to be hardcountered. The solution to this imo is to buff terran mech more. I like to see a complete redesign of the thor. Thors just suck, a completely failed unit design since the beginning. Sry can't propose more at this point of time.
Sure I also would enjoy to get bio nerfed, colossi nerfed, banelings nerfed etc. In the end we had less terrible damage and less hard counters. But this is quite unlikely to happen and would be a new game.
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If you look at the current meta of ZvT we see a lot of people already going for a ridiculous amount of mutas. With tank-mine instead of mines alone i really don't see why zerg wont go muta every single game .Vs bio mine-tank there is litterally no other option because tank mine will further deny the use of infestor (that were really underused anyway). and roach hydra just lol at it more because terran will produce tanks.
If you look at the gas to be spend to build tanks instead of mines for supply it's 3 times more gas spend + you need an early second factory that delay startport or upgrade.
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On September 24 2013 18:00 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:54 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:46 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now. And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8. How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events. IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4 WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3 Simple math: 6 tournaments = 12 finalists. If we weigh 1st place as 2points. Weigh 1.5 the 2nd place. It will be 21 points in total and protoss managed to take 3 points only. Pretty low... I can play with the numbers too. Pls. stop this nonsense discussion. Lol, you started cherry picking the data first with your 'tournaments wins after June"... Why don't we look at more general data. Perhaps TvP win rate in Korean LAN tournaments/qualifiers? But every time we bring that up, Protoss use the "Well, Terran still WON the tournament".
Instead of him cherry-picking, you cherry-picking and me cherry-picking, why don't we look at the available rankings (aligulac, tlpd and most importantly Blizzard's own WCS), which are all dominated by Terrans.
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On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already.
:D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation.
Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically.
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On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time.
Even still there no reason to nerf it this much. People were already starting to figure out how to deal with them by microing and by nerfing them this much, those effort that people used to learn to deal with the mine will be for naught. They are probably too strong but a change to 1.20-1.30 would be more reasonable change. Then even if it was too strong, then they can just nerf it more.
But honestly, I believe they are nerfing the mine this much is because they want people to try tanks again. If mine were only nerf to 1.20-1.30, I dont think people would be open to try the tanks since tanks are shit. Even with the new change, tanks are pretty shit but tanks will be able to fire more shots and in a real time fight, a few extra shot can clean up remaining banelings. But this still doesnt solve how shitty and how liable tanks are to mutas and how passive it make you become in the mid game until you have enough tanks to push out and by then, good creep spread will make shit pretty impossible to push fast enough to do any sort of damage before some sort of zerg T3 unit come to roll you.
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On September 24 2013 18:04 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation. Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically.
Yes I agree its a design issue. There is no diversity, because biomine beats everything Terran has in terms of strategy. Flash said so as well, Terran has no strategical depth. If everything else would be viable, Terrans would divide and play different shit, unfortunately it is not.
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On September 24 2013 18:00 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:54 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:46 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now. And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8. How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events. IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4 WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3 Simple math: 6 tournaments = 12 finalists. If we weigh 1st place as 2points. Weigh 1.5 the 2nd place. It will be 21 points in total and protoss managed to take 3 points only. Pretty low... I can play with the numbers too. Pls. stop this nonsense discussion. Lol, you started cherry picking the data first with your 'tournaments wins after June"... Why don't we look at more general data. Perhaps TvP win rate in Korean LAN tournaments/qualifiers? But every time we bring that up, Protoss use the "Well, Terran still WON the tournament".
Thats why I call presenting data useless. Everyone gets to cherry pick.
Naruto counts finalists. I count only wins. Someone counts top10 in grandmaster. Someone simply checks powerranking. No one knows who's right or who's wrong. Therefore presenting data is not helpful for discussion.
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On September 24 2013 18:07 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:00 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:54 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:46 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already.
:D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now. And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8. How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events. IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4 WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3 Simple math: 6 tournaments = 12 finalists. If we weigh 1st place as 2points. Weigh 1.5 the 2nd place. It will be 21 points in total and protoss managed to take 3 points only. Pretty low... I can play with the numbers too. Pls. stop this nonsense discussion. Lol, you started cherry picking the data first with your 'tournaments wins after June"... Why don't we look at more general data. Perhaps TvP win rate in Korean LAN tournaments/qualifiers? But every time we bring that up, Protoss use the "Well, Terran still WON the tournament". Thats why I call presenting data useless. Everyone gets to cherry pick. Naruto counts finalists. I count only wins. Someone counts top10 in grandmaster. Someone simply checks powerranking. No one knows who's right or who's wrong. Therefore presenting data is not helpful for discussion.
I didn't cherrypick when I did collect all Korean data for this month, yet it was called not correct by people, because they didn't like the results. The same people that took the same games from last month, when statistics showed disadvantage for their race.
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On September 24 2013 18:07 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:04 boxerfred wrote:On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation. Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically. Yes I agree its a design issue. There is no diversity, because biomine beats everything Terran has in terms of strategy. Flash said so as well, Terran has no strategical depth. If everything else would be viable, Terrans would divide and play different shit, unfortunately it is not.
same for Z though...ling bane muta every day. even if mech or bio mech gets viable for T that still means Z has to go ling bane muta if the T decides to go MMMM. roach hydra and SHs or infestors...at least one more comp that works vs 4M would be awesome. funny how its always T crying about having only 1 viable strat then Z also only has 1 viable strat vs 4M and will have after this patch.
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At a quick glance over the past couple pages...angry Terrans ranting about how Protoss is "too strong" and "doing just fine" (despite the dearth of tournament wins, especially as the Protoss builds get figured out) as expected. So guess I'll skip over the last 44 pages, since I can already guess at the mess there.
The combined Mech + Air upgrades are likely to be too much since the only thing keeping Skyterran in check is how hard it is to transition to. It likely will result in more use of both but I'm not convinced it is going to be well balanced.
Justified Widow Mine nerf but thats pretty huge. Have to see how it plays out with the tank change. To the latter all I can say is "wow they actually finally buffed the tank?" Its a good change but I'm still firmly of the opinion that the 'problem' for Terran is DK's refusal over the past few years to nerf the Marine and buff everything around it; preferring instead to keep the Marine as is and nerf every other Terran unit. Nerf the Marine, buff a lot of stuff around it and Terran would have far more viable options. As it is the Marine is far too strong to consider buffing anything else close to its level or Terran would just roll over everyone (again...).
Oracle cost change doesn't address the fundamental problems with the Oracle so I can't see this doing much beyond encouraging even more effective early Oracle attacks since it'll be cheaper, easier and less risky to pull off with less gas cost.
Interesting change to the DT but I expected something like this eventually. They're still something of a binary unit either you hit or you don't. That IS a pretty huge increase though. Can't see that being finalised.
It is a shame how tunnelling claws just doesn't get used anymore. That being said I'm not sure a speed upgrade is going to help matters much. Perhaps an armor buff when they're underground instead?
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As some people have already stated, the direction makes me optimistic. They are putting some focus on the siege tank, fixing unused abilities (tunneling claws). I really dont understand the oracle change, and it makes even less sense to me after reading the reasoning for it. I also dont understand the DT change at all.
I see alot of players, who I assume are protoss players, argue that these changes are good and interesting. Are these really the changes you wanted to see or are you just happy you got something and dont want to be left with nothing? Sry if I sound rude but those protoss changes really makes my head spin. I would love to see some changes to protoss, its not about that, more that these specific changes seem so strange to me.
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On September 24 2013 18:04 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:58 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:55 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:45 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end. I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems: 1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too? 2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them. Widow mines are way op and too strong for what they cost. If terran appears to be too weak after such a change, further changes need to be done. Widow mines should be a nice addon a zerg does not expect. It should not be the ultimate offense/defense unit that it is now. Just look at PvZ and how versatile the different styles are. I expect TvZ to become this versatile as well so that different strategies require certain adaptions from opponents on both sides and the matchup gets some creativity back. TvZ right now just sucks to play big time. Widowmines and not overpowered and clearly its not too cost efficient. It always gets pointed out, yet whenever we saw the unit lost tab in current good-long TvZs we see its about even, strangely enough right? For reference, Curious vs INnoVation. Widowmines enable terran to trade at least equal, imo with a small advantage for the terran. Once 3/3 tunes in, the terran can trade even better. That, plus given the fact that bio-mine is the most efficient way for terran to play ZvT, I don't think it's a balance issue, but it is a "restricting the game down to one style" issue, which sucks. So I guess I approve the change, but I think the range is nerfed too drastically.
@naruto
It isn't important if zergs can adapt to this state of the game and still might win games. Important is that this unit that btw is quite cheap for what it does makes the whole ZvT matchup a pure mine defusing game. Also this unit denies other playstyles from terran as it is way stronger than the other styles. Therefore it is safe to say that the mine is op in its current state.
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EPT
