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On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no.
There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why.
PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now.
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On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions.
So we should balance for roughly the top 3 players world wide? And when Bomber/Innovation decide to start their own LoL team we should boost terran? And when they return we should nerf terran again?
If you look at the top 32 players in all WCS regions then protoss really have no reason whatsoever to complain. But the top 32 players is already too large a sample size for you?
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On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine  Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D
The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf.
Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup.
Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end.
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On September 24 2013 17:28 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p You forget that HoTS mutas are faster and have regen. This makes marine tank not nearly as effective because mutas pick off tanks much faster and lower risk.
so you say that it is impossible to change muta regen if it is too strong after all?
On September 24 2013 17:29 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p Mines came into play because the mutalisk got buffed a ton in HotS - you are aware of that right? Put it back down to its old fashion and I will happily try to play marine/tank, but aint going to happen when mutalisks fly circles around you.
you are mixing things up naruto. Mutalisks got buffed because blizzard invented the mine for hots.
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On September 24 2013 17:15 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:04 tar wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. You really are one rude chap. 1st of all, I didn't say anything about who is favored or not, I just don't like the way WMs end games: one missstep and then the game is basically done even at the later stages of the game. This is something you encounter outside pro games quite a lot too. Then, I didn't base my post upon the idea that Terrans should shut up because they are doing great. don't know where you are taking this from: My point was that the balancing approached changed (ie improved in my opinion) with HotS yet there is no appreciation for it at all. I brought up Terran because in this balance map patch discussion it were mostly Terrans complaining due to the WM nerf. It holds true for any race when it comes to balance patches that are buffing "the other guys shit". Also, this is a balance map patch. It roughly shows indications where they want to go and apparently the tank is getting a focus here. 2.7 compared to 3.0 attack speend might or might not change enough atm, but the matter is: they are considering pushing the tank which is something that was demanded by so many ppl for a long time! I simply don't value wrong statements. There is plenty of stuff in the game that can turn the game around, is the mine more random because it does target automatically? I dare to say a fungal holds the same problem then, because we all know what happens with fungaled units in TvZ. It can turn around teh game as well. Same with timewarp or forcefields. I personally like the approach of David Kim to buff rather than nerf, but you still have to take into account what to do. Terran struggles against Protoss due to Photon Overcharge allowing amazingly greedy play, yet they buff Protoss early game due to making tech builds either less costly or stronger in case of dark templars without weakening the defence. Yet they nerf Terran aspects and don't push anything that would allow for early game initiative. So how do you consider this approach justified?
You don't value other opinions, otherwise you wouldn't resort to rudeness.
I am not going to go into an in-depth game design analysis here. fungals and ffs might be bad design ideas, however, that doesn't mean I cannot dislike other aspects of the game as well.
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On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end.
I agree with you 4M as only option as it currently is, is bad. However you are missing two problems:
1. This isn't just nerfing widow mines a bit, it is nerfing them into the ground. It is freaking enormous. Sure you can say it is just a number. If storm area was decreased by a factor 2.5 would you consider that just a number too?
2. Currently bio-mech and mech are not viable options whatsoever. A 10% decrease in cycle time of siege tanks won't change that, they still won't be viable options. They were in WoL, then they got minor boosts while zerg got huge boosts to directly counter them.
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On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc)
were the storm landed automatically just because you have a HT?
If the mines were detonated onto the clumped units because the player punishing the other's mistake, then that would be awesome.
mid to late game PvT, terran ball vs toss ball has a lot to do with baiting storms, sniping, emping, feedback etc.
the interaction between ghosts and HTs is interesting, medivac ghost drop emp, warp prism ghost storm, HT flanking etc.
all have interesting and dynamic interaction.
but do you recall any terran in recent matchup that manually use the mines to target fire the clumped banelings? A lot of games were win/loss just because the mine hit/not hit onto the clumped banelings. Zerg can't micro out from a mine hit once they engage and the engagements are too fast for terran to even attempt to manually target fire with mine.
not all people aren't saying 4M is way too good and can't be over run, some would, I will leave my opinion to myself.
During bio tank thor vs ling baneling muta era, we know T is good because T is target firing the banelings with tanks, bio splitting and protecting tanks, leap frogging tanks, spreading out the tanks just enough etc.
We know Z is good because the lings try for a surround, banelings not clumping up and spread to catchup with the bio, muta magic boxing the thor and target firing the tanks or chasing the bio depends on the situation.
I will just leave these questions to you:
Did the terran lose because he didn't target the mine well? Did he win because he target firing the mines or just too many mines and landed one luckily or zerg mis calcuating the mine numbers or just poor micro from zerg?
Personally I want games to be won because the player is manually doing something to punish a mistake, not because the mistake was automatically punished just because he has a unit in position. I dislike a game where the key unit is one that can deal the game winning blow automatically while the other player has to kill it manually
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On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now.
And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8.
How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events.
IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4
WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3
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On September 24 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. So we should balance for roughly the top 3 players world wide? And when Bomber/Innovation decide to start their own LoL team we should boost terran? And when they return we should nerf terran again? If you look at the top 32 players in all WCS regions then protoss really have no reason whatsoever to complain. But the top 32 players is already too large a sample size for you?
You should really check nested quotes before commenting. Besides. I specifically told those numbers don't mean much.
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On September 24 2013 17:41 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:27 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame. Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2... Haha, Iol'd. Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D The problem is that people are not open minded to changes. Surely mine TvZ is highly beneficial for terran. Just believe me when I tell you that it is killing the fun for most zergs. It is just an unbalanced position that you are in when fighting against mines in its current state. Furthermore the issue about mines is that there is no alternative as they are so good. Therefore ZvT would end up being stale for the rest of SC2 life, without a mine nerf. Example for you: Just consider PvZ if zergs went mass mutalisks any game and you had to defend it with stalkers/sentry/cannon only. Zerg is always offensive, attacking, deciding the pace of the game. If you make one mistake with stalkers then you die to mass muta. You gotta play this every single PvZ. This is how ZvT feels right now. Apart from the fact that it is imbalanced to be in an only defensive position in a matchup it also kills the fun of the game when you play against only a single always the same strategy in every single game of a matchup. Blizzard is doing a step in the right direction there. But I am convinced that the thor needs to be redone completely to make mech a good choice in the end.
You say the WM kills fun for most Zergs... What if I tell you the whole TvP matchup kills fun for most Terrans as it is always an uphill battle where if you might just lose most of your army in a blink of an eye to massive AoE from the Protoss arsenal?! Right, I guess that makes us all crybabies...
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On September 24 2013 17:43 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:15 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:04 tar wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. You really are one rude chap. 1st of all, I didn't say anything about who is favored or not, I just don't like the way WMs end games: one missstep and then the game is basically done even at the later stages of the game. This is something you encounter outside pro games quite a lot too. Then, I didn't base my post upon the idea that Terrans should shut up because they are doing great. don't know where you are taking this from: My point was that the balancing approached changed (ie improved in my opinion) with HotS yet there is no appreciation for it at all. I brought up Terran because in this balance map patch discussion it were mostly Terrans complaining due to the WM nerf. It holds true for any race when it comes to balance patches that are buffing "the other guys shit". Also, this is a balance map patch. It roughly shows indications where they want to go and apparently the tank is getting a focus here. 2.7 compared to 3.0 attack speend might or might not change enough atm, but the matter is: they are considering pushing the tank which is something that was demanded by so many ppl for a long time! I simply don't value wrong statements. There is plenty of stuff in the game that can turn the game around, is the mine more random because it does target automatically? I dare to say a fungal holds the same problem then, because we all know what happens with fungaled units in TvZ. It can turn around teh game as well. Same with timewarp or forcefields. I personally like the approach of David Kim to buff rather than nerf, but you still have to take into account what to do. Terran struggles against Protoss due to Photon Overcharge allowing amazingly greedy play, yet they buff Protoss early game due to making tech builds either less costly or stronger in case of dark templars without weakening the defence. Yet they nerf Terran aspects and don't push anything that would allow for early game initiative. So how do you consider this approach justified? You don't value other opinions, otherwise you wouldn't resort to rudeness. I am not going to go into an in-depth game design analysis here. fungals and ffs might be bad design ideas, however, that doesn't mean I cannot dislike other aspects of the game as well.
I value other opinions if they make sense. Its fine to not like the mine, I do neither but I see that the mine is nesseccary to overcome TvZ currently.
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On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5.
Your posting is a fucking joke and I can't understand your shit does not get moderated.
After faking statistics before, you here post that in 18 tournaments we had 9 P in the finals, 12 T and 12 Z. So 33 players in 18 finals? Or counting Terrans only once in TvT do skew numbers? Again?
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On September 24 2013 17:46 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:40 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. So we should balance for roughly the top 3 players world wide? And when Bomber/Innovation decide to start their own LoL team we should boost terran? And when they return we should nerf terran again? If you look at the top 32 players in all WCS regions then protoss really have no reason whatsoever to complain. But the top 32 players is already too large a sample size for you? You should really check nested quotes before commenting. Besides. I specifically told those numbers don't mean much.
You can't say we had two Protoss in the finals since June and not in the best tournaments and proceed to discredit the overall Protoss numbers. Either you try to back up your claims with numbers like you did and accept the counter argument, or you simply don't make statements like you do that RELY ON NUMBERS.
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On September 24 2013 17:31 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:27 Musicus wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc) Why do people get so angry about the numbers. It's the first proposal and everything will get tested. Maybe Tanks attack speed will be 2,5 and the wm radius 1,5 when it goes live? Who knows? Just be happy that there are changes and forget the numbers. Maybe Blizzard should just say we "will reduce this and increase this" etc. without providing numbers until it goes live, because many get to upset about numbers that aren't final. Because that was what was done with the Queen buff (one of the worse patches in WoL). Blizzard started testing with 5 range. Everyone said to relax and if 5 is OP, Blizzard would tone it down to 4. And then what happened?
This is fairly true, I mean when ever they release these new, they tend to be pretty spot on about the next change inc. I think the only time they actually show a buff/nerf and decided not to implement it was back when fungal projectile was FIRST considered and people were complaining that fungal was too weak (lol i know people once though fungal was weak -_-) so it didnt get change. Beside that, I think every balance change they show case has been implemented.
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On September 24 2013 17:43 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:28 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p You forget that HoTS mutas are faster and have regen. This makes marine tank not nearly as effective because mutas pick off tanks much faster and lower risk. so you say that it is impossible to change muta regen if it is too strong after all? Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:29 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p Mines came into play because the mutalisk got buffed a ton in HotS - you are aware of that right? Put it back down to its old fashion and I will happily try to play marine/tank, but aint going to happen when mutalisks fly circles around you. you are mixing things up naruto. Mutalisks got buffed because blizzard invented the mine for hots.
I don't like biomine as much, but I personally don't believe its boring. We saw a lot of good games recently and if thats the way TvZ is going, hell yes please more of it. If you disagree I believe you haven't seen the games because I believe most people said it was the best TvZ series since HotS.
I do prefer variety of a match up so we can see more styles, but as it is currently, biomine is needed to fight mutas not the other way around. If marine/tank would be viable against fastmutas with fast regen, people would play it, but they don't because it dominates marine/tank.
So either fix the muta or fix bio tank in such a fashion that its playable. I really don't care for the mine, but its Terrans only tool to push out before late-midgame or early-lategame. If you push out at that point with tanks, Zerg had free reign and your map will be covered in creep and Zerg will be on T3 wooping your ass.
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One last thing to note: the mine nerf/tank buff will not solve the 3/3 terran-trades-alot-better problem of TvZ.
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On September 24 2013 17:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc) were the storm landed automatically just because you have a HT? If the mines were detonated onto the clumped units because the player punishing the other's mistake, then that would be awesome. mid to late game PvT, terran ball vs toss ball has a lot to do with baiting storms, sniping, emping, feedback etc. the interaction between ghosts and HTs is interesting, medivac ghost drop emp, warp prism ghost storm, HT flanking etc. all have interesting and dynamic interaction. but do you recall any terran in recent matchup that manually use the mines to target fire the clumped banelings? A lot of games were win/loss just because the mine hit/not hit onto the clumped banelings. Zerg can't micro out from a mine hit once they engage and the engagements are too fast for terran to even attempt to manually target fire with mine. not all people aren't saying 4M is way too good and can't be over run, some would, I will leave my opinion to myself. During bio tank thor vs ling baneling muta era, we know T is good because T is target firing the banelings with tanks, bio splitting and protecting tanks, leap frogging tanks, spreading out the tanks just enough etc. We know Z is good because the lings try for a surround, banelings not clumping up and spread to catchup with the bio, muta magic boxing the thor and target firing the tanks or chasing the bio depends on the situation. I will just leave these questions to you: Did the terran lose because he didn't target the mine well? Did he win because he target firing the mines or just too many mines and landed one luckily or zerg mis calcuating the mine numbers or just poor micro from zerg? Personally I want games to be won because the player is manually doing something to punish a mistake, not because the mistake was automatically punished just because he has a unit in position. I dislike a game where the key unit is one that can deal the game winning blow automatically while the other player has to kill it manually
Then why is zealot charge automatic? One of the core issues with TvP late game is what you mentioned. The ghost/HT dance is fine, the stalker/viking/colossi target fire is good. But terrans have to stim and kite ON TOP of it. That fact that chargelots are balanced around stutter stepping which is fine in the mid game. But in late game situation, it is just much harder to keep up along with everything else.
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Poland3748 Posts
On September 24 2013 03:26 Wildmoon wrote:
Keep in mind this is what they want to test. Nothing here is final. I wonder how big of a deal 3 to 2.7 attack speed is.
That's around 10% increase in DPS.
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As a Terran I must say I'm a bit saddened by these changes... I'm already having plenty of trouble on ladder as it is. Let's see how this turns out.
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On September 24 2013 17:46 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:28 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill. You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then? I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance. If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no. There were only 2 protoss players in final since June, in Asus Rog and IEM (again, not the very best tournaments). Both lost. Taking into account that meta got figured out and dusts are kinda settled, we can see protoss are not performing well lately. I'm not much into numbers as you know, but the point was, you demanded explanation why someone thought you fell low. I just pointed out why. PS. I agree that Rain choked vs Maru. But it doesn't explain me why protoss are not performing well lately. Rain=/= All protoss, besides he's in slump now. And there have only been 6 tournaments since June... 1 of which was Valencia with the fearsome Stardust, JYP, elfi as the top protosses. Season 2 finals between Bomber and JD had 3 protosses in Ro8. How about the Korean Qualifiers for IEM and WCG which are more stacked than almost all foreign events. IEM - Zest, San, Inno, Curious Top 4 WCG - Sora, Parting, Inno Top 3
Simple math:
6 tournaments = 12 finalists.
If we weigh 1st place as 2points. Weigh 1.5 the 2nd place. It will be 21 points in total and protoss managed to take 3 points only. Pretty low...
I can play with the numbers too. Pls. stop this nonsense discussion.
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EPT
