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On September 24 2013 17:04 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. You really are one rude chap. 1st of all, I didn't say anything about who is favored or not, I just don't like the way WMs end games: one missstep and then the game is basically done even at the later stages of the game. This is something you encounter outside pro games quite a lot too. Then, I didn't base my post upon the idea that Terrans should shut up because they are doing great. don't know where you are taking this from: My point was that the balancing approached changed (ie improved in my opinion) with HotS yet there is no appreciation for it at all. I brought up Terran because in this balance map patch discussion it were mostly Terrans complaining due to the WM nerf. It holds true for any race when it comes to balance patches that are buffing "the other guys shit". Also, this is a balance map patch. It roughly shows indications where they want to go and apparently the tank is getting a focus here. 2.7 compared to 3.0 attack speend might or might not change enough atm, but the matter is: they are considering pushing the tank which is something that was demanded by so many ppl for a long time!
I simply don't value wrong statements. There is plenty of stuff in the game that can turn the game around, is the mine more random because it does target automatically? I dare to say a fungal holds the same problem then, because we all know what happens with fungaled units in TvZ. It can turn around teh game as well. Same with timewarp or forcefields. I personally like the approach of David Kim to buff rather than nerf, but you still have to take into account what to do.
Terran struggles against Protoss due to Photon Overcharge allowing amazingly greedy play, yet they buff Protoss early game due to making tech builds either less costly or stronger in case of dark templars without weakening the defence. Yet they nerf Terran aspects and don't push anything that would allow for early game initiative. So how do you consider this approach justified?
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Just don't buff dark templars...
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On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well.
The problem is that the entire matchup is balanced around 4M. Personally I often don't enjoy watching it, sometimes there are good games, but I preferred WoL dynamics (well before it was just mass infestors and BLs).
Now what Blizzard proposes is nerfing mines into the ground. There is no other way to say it. Nerfing splash area by more than a factor 2.5 is enormous. Reducing tank cycle time by 10% really doesn't compensate for that. This makes widow mines ALOT worse against lings, banelings, mutas and workers. And also a bit against general stacked air, like walking your widow mines under a BC army.
So if you add siege tanks you lose the complete mobility of 4M. Streaming across the map simply is not an option anymore. That means the mutas are free for harrasment duty. And what is going to stop fast moving, fast regen mutas? Widow mines are alot worse already. Currently you prevent it by forcing his mutas to combat your main army by continiously attacking. In WoL if you had mech and a thor in your base got two volleys of on his muta flock you were happy: They were significantly weaker now and if they would come back soon he would lose mutas. Now 10 seconds laters they are all full health again.
And then we have vipers, swarmhosts, new ultras, etc.
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On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously!
I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions.
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On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well.
Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now.
It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative.
Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc)
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On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change.
I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles.
I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry.
Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p
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Sorry if i missed it, is the test map published already?
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On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions.
Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE.
Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2...
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On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p
If anything I liked zergling vs mine micro, they shoud've preserved it for midgame. And give transition options for the lategame.
Now we're back to muta/bane a-move into siegetank/marine 
On September 24 2013 17:25 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions. Why is 1st place the end all for balance? Who has been BY FAR the most dominate player in 2013? Innovation. How many premier tournament 1st place finishes does he have? ONE. Protoss is fine since MC is the #1 money earner for all of SC2...
Haha, I Iol'd.
Imagine DK balances things by player earnings :D
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On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc)
Why do people get so angry about the numbers. It's the first proposal and everything will get tested. Maybe Tanks attack speed will be 2,5 and the wm radius 1,5 when it goes live? Who knows? Just be happy that there are changes and forget the numbers. Maybe Blizzard should just say we "will reduce this and increase this" etc. without providing numbers until it goes live, because many get to upset about numbers that aren't final.
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On September 24 2013 17:19 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 17:09 Sabu113 wrote:On September 24 2013 16:08 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:01 Littlesheep wrote:
I love how Protoss players never win any tournaments, but everyone goes apeshit if they get buffed, even if ALL races are getting buffed. DT speed will not be a change at most levels, anyone who just A-moves DTs won't see a benefit, it's to help Protoss players at the highest level who are STRUGGLING to compete. Dts are little risk high reward essentially, there is no need for a buff. A good Protoss can get out of a scan now if his movement is good, after the buff it doesnt take any effort at all because it moves AS FAST AS stimmed bio. Also, Protoss won stuff already so "never" is a huge exaggeration , but you can look it up, they didn't win 1 but multiple tournaments this year already. :D:D struggling hahaha , should really get your facts straight. No one is to blame if Rain manages to hit the finale but choke there. How you have fallen Naruto. It's pretty sad. You can explain why, otherwise its pretty meaningless. If 7 second place finishes and 3 tournament wins in premier is winning nothing, I will take it back obviously! I can try to explain. Protoss won 3 out of 18 last premier tournaments, which are WCS EU, WCS AM and Dreamhack, not the biggest tournaments as WCS(final) or WCS KR. Terran won 10 and zerg 5. And yet you continously provide disguised information than balance is totally ok. Not that I say these numbers mean much, afterall maybe bomber,taeja and inno are that good. But fact is, your way of discussing and presenting data leaves not the very best impressions.
Do you believe all Protoss that made it to the finals, lost due to balance reasons? Do you seriously consider Rain vs Maru a balance-issue? Rain was up 2-0 and also had the 3rd game won, he choked and threw it away. After that it went downhill.
You argue that WCS EU Finals and Dreamhack are no big tournaments, then I might as well point out that Terran also won a WCS Eu premier and a Dreamhack as well as an IEM - are those not the biggest tournaments as well then?
I don't know how you can look at the winner and the winner only - it makes no sense. Protoss is not extinct in finals, actually they are very well represented. From 18 tournaments we had 9 tournaments with a Protoss in the final. 3 times winning, one time it was a PvP final. We had Terrans in the final 12 times, winning 10. We had Zergs in the final 12 times, winning 5. While I believe the won tournaments by Terran clearly exceed the tournament winnings of Protoss and Zerg, I don't believe this is due to balance.
If you look at the final games, you can usually explain a loss and in addition it can be a lot "worse" on paper if you simply point out win/loss. As explained at the example of Rain, he could have been up 3-0 and even if he would have lost, it would have been a 3-4. Is a 3-4 in the finals sign of imbalance? I dare to say no.
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On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p
You forget that HoTS mutas are faster and have regen. This makes marine tank not nearly as effective because mutas pick off tanks much faster and lower risk.
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What I really wonder is, IF the WM changes make it through testing, they won't really be worth 2 supply for their damage potential...
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I feel like there's a troll in the list of buffs.
Well, I feel like the widow mine nerf is too hard. It might even remove the mine from being a supportive unit of the main army and put it back into the 'gimmicky' section, just because especially in TvZ, it's so much harder for the mine to trigger now. Anyone remembering the maths someone did to get an idea of when a mine is triggered?
I'm eager to see how the siege tank buff is going to work out. I think the approach is a good one, but we will have to see how it plays out - might be a too strong buff (and Bio vs. Mech in TvT just became a lot harder, sorry Taeja..).
Oracle buff - oh, I don't know about that. I'm not playing protoss at all.
DT buff - that's the troll I mentioned above. That is not supposed to happen unless Broodlords get Muta speed..or so.
Mech ground and air attacks combined was talked about for such a long time, it was about time that this comes. How it will play out? I don't know.
But somehow I feel that the most gameplay changes will be seen on TvT and TvZ, with Mech buff, especially TvT.
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On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p
Mines came into play because the mutalisk got buffed a ton in HotS - you are aware of that right? Put it back down to its old fashion and I will happily try to play marine/tank, but aint going to happen when mutalisks fly circles around you.
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On September 24 2013 17:27 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc) Why do people get so angry about the numbers. It's the first proposal and everything will get tested. Maybe Tanks attack speed will be 2,5 and the wm radius 1,5 when it goes live? Who knows? Just be happy that there are changes and forget the numbers. Maybe Blizzard should just say we "will reduce this and increase this" etc. without providing numbers until it goes live, because many get to upset about numbers that aren't final.
Because that was what was done with the Queen buff (one of the worse patches in WoL). Blizzard started testing with 5 range. Everyone said to relax and if 5 is OP, Blizzard would tone it down to 4. And then what happened?
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Looks like they are still clueless how to improve gameplay and make this game more interesting to play and watch.
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Armory attack upgrades combined: Imo that's not needed. It makes transitioning out of Mech into Sky easier instead of buffing Mech itself.
WM nerf: The idea isn't bad. I guess they nerf it drastically to see an effect at all and then make a more educated guess on what the actual number should be.
Tank buff: Finally(!) they start making Mech more viable. It may need a bigger or another buff, but it's a good start.
Roach buff: I like the idea of giving Zerg more micro potential and promote the Roach/Hydra playstyle a bit.
Oracle buff: Seriously? Needing less gas will make this even less allin'ish and also harder to scout, which allin is actually coming. This will do nothing for the mid- or lategame (as was intended).
DT buff: WTF? Another allin buff? Early DT drops are hard enough to deal with already, if you don't react immediately. On that speed they'll run circles in your base, with very little chance to catch them with something useful. They'll be even quicker to level turrets before anything can run up to use the detection range. (On a sidenote: on that same argument that DTs should be able to run out of scan range better, you could also give Banshees a speedbuff.)
Overall I don't understand what the Protoss buffs should achieve. "Protoss has such a strong earlygame defense. We give them better offensive potential to make them use that more instead."?!? Yes, Protoss' earlygame defense is very good (mainly because of Photon Overcharge) and them using it to turtle makes games boring. Why aren't they weakening the defense to give Protoss a reason to be more active on the map? Tbh, the Protoss changes look like DK has no idea of Protoss at all or he's biased.
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On September 24 2013 17:29 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:23 LSN wrote:On September 24 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:
Widow mine nerf is so needless. They should've given more options to zerg, maybe burrowing dodges mine shots. No need to make a unit completely useless. I'm not sure this was wellthought changes by blizzard, feels like over-afternoon-one-meeting decisions. Hardly any explanation given to each change. I strongly disagree. TvZ before HOTS worked without widow mines. TvZ is way too mine focused these days. I don't think it works as intended. Mines should be a support unit and not the backbone of whole terran in this matchup. ZvT is just a pure Z vs mine matchup. Mines should be an optional unit not a must have. Fighting every single game vs mass mines in ZvT is zeroing the fun to play for zergs. The mine nerf was overdue considering the fact how big of an impact this unit with the price of 1 roach has had and how much it makes other units obsolete. The mine nerf enables blizzard in the future to do further changes to incentivize a bigger variety of play styles. I like all the changes. Also the protoss changes. If balance does not work out after this there is room for more changes so no reason to worry. Dark templar buff seems odd in the beginning but in the end it makes dt just a more viable in macrogames. It must not longer be a do or die strategy. Sure thing that it will be annoying for both t and z :p Mines came into play because the mutalisk got buffed a ton in HotS - you are aware of that right? Put it back down to its old fashion and I will happily try to play marine/tank, but aint going to happen when mutalisks fly circles around you.
no it was the other way around...muta buffs came much later in HOTS beta than mines with balance update #9. so yeah muta regen was only introduced since without it WMs were way OP without it.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_II:_Heart_of_the_Swarm_beta_patch
btw everybody needs to relax. its a test map and the changes they take are good ones (hell they even start to finally buff useless Z stuff and there is much of it left like ovidrop, nydus, neural etc.). if tank buffs arent enough and WM nerf is over the top they will fix it. but obv. there will be something to help Z since TvZ is in Ts favor for 7 months now.
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EPT
