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On July 09 2013 02:41 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:34 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:31 MrTortoise wrote:
12% rake?
Rofl thats criminal
So i have a 50% win loss play 8 matches and you have raked a whole match worth of winnings?
you would need about 70% win rate to be a winner which would automatically move you out of the skill bracket you claim to be in.
Broken system is broken. I'll repeat what I said shall I? That's only if you play for the same amount of money in every game... you can still be on profit even if you have a 50% win rate, just depends on how much you play for in each game If you have any rake and you win 50% you have lost by definition because you care about your return on your investment when you repeat that action x number of times You don't understand equity.
You don't understand that I 3 years experience in gambling for money on by playing games, you don't so please, shh you really have no clue what you're talking about, also in game you have 50/50 chance you'll win, Poker is not 50/50 so please don't pair them together
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United States996 Posts
On July 09 2013 02:39 Batiste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:34 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 02:30 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:29 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:
having a service that offers gambling in video games is definitely an idea [albeit controversial and logistically incredibly hard]
however, the idea of the service you are providing, as it stands, is asinine because it falls infinitely short of protecting the integrity of the game and the people who play it - and the rake taken from the site per match is laughably high The rake is just an example christ Its a crappy example and you might want to change it, since it is dominating the discussion. the example is not 'crappy' as it's a real example, 12% isn't as bad as you think, to be honest back when I was doing this gaming gambling everyone was happy and the site had that rake for years but now they may be going to 6% Rake for premium members and get 50 games free rake for just $8 a month, suppose this will be better example but that's to much for little minds to understand so I just kept it simple for the incapable. And 12% doesn't even matter to the winner, end of they day the winner makes money and just means the loser will have to play either for more money to breakeven in his next game or have to win his next two games for same amount to get profit
i dont think you get to write that first paragraph and then be blatantly wrong about the bolded part. since the original losers winning games are racked twice he is not up the same amount as a person that has won once outright. thats the whole point about the size of the rake mattering
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On July 09 2013 02:46 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:39 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:34 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 02:30 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:29 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:
having a service that offers gambling in video games is definitely an idea [albeit controversial and logistically incredibly hard]
however, the idea of the service you are providing, as it stands, is asinine because it falls infinitely short of protecting the integrity of the game and the people who play it - and the rake taken from the site per match is laughably high The rake is just an example christ Its a crappy example and you might want to change it, since it is dominating the discussion. the example is not 'crappy' as it's a real example, 12% isn't as bad as you think, to be honest back when I was doing this gaming gambling everyone was happy and the site had that rake for years but now they may be going to 6% Rake for premium members and get 50 games free rake for just $8 a month, suppose this will be better example but that's to much for little minds to understand so I just kept it simple for the incapable. And 12% doesn't even matter to the winner, end of they day the winner makes money and just means the loser will have to play either for more money to breakeven in his next game or have to win his next two games for same amount to get profit i dont think you get to write that first paragraph and then be blatantly wrong about the bolded part. since the original losers winning games are racked twice he is not up the same amount as a person that has won once outright. thats the whole point about the size of the rake mattering
Yes but no matter what the rake he will have to win two games to be back in profit if he played for the same amount of money as he lost.
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On July 09 2013 02:41 Batiste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:34 JKM wrote:
I would never participate in such a system. Something like that is too tempting for players to cheat, most likely by misrepresenting their skill-level and/or using friends accounts who are in on the ordeal (or by using various hacks and similar stuff that seem to be extremely hard to detect).
Furthermore, it's not something Blizzard can encourage with a large proportion of their player base being minors.
Every games large proportion are minors
And I am not aware of major online games that allow minors to gamble directly against each other - that is arranged/monetized by the publisher.
Even if it wasn't a problem for Blizzard, I still don't see how it'd ever become legitimate with the huge risk of cheating and that the system that basically feed money upwards (on a skill-ladder). If you play against opponents who match your skill you will win 50% of your games and since the pool is diminished (12%) you will be losing money. From a equity point of view most players will never win money and unlike online poker (and similar) you can't get lucky, in SC2 you will always start with 6 workers and a base.
Gambling on pro-matches is do-able, but still don't see Blizzard associating itself with it.
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On July 09 2013 02:04 Heyoka wrote:
Your original post was called "gambling on StarCraft" and that's your answer. The legal and social implications of a huge, publicly traded company encouraging their users, many of whom are underage, to gamble on their product for cash are hugely negative. The logistics can never work out in a way where it's worth their effort.
Also 12% rake is pretty laughable.
Couldn’t be more accurate.
Years ago I worked with a company then called “Neteller” that dealt exclusively with online gambling funds transfers. To make a long story short in 2006 the U.S government started strictly enforcing the ‘federal wire act’ which prohibits the transfer of funds across state lines for the purpose of betting on sport.
The idea that Blizzard would segregate their largest market (The US) is outlandish. To go even further they would have to confirm the Identity and age of every single Battle.net client to be sure they’re of age and would be forced to close the accounts of those who aren’t, as already stated that would be a large portion of the online populace.
I guess in the end it’s a somewhat interesting idea to talk about, but it’s not even in the realm of being considered or remotely plausible.
On a side note does anyone want to bet that someone will figure a way to turn this into a religious debate? Anyone here willing to be a commissioner for a cut off the top!?
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Why not rip off the players when coming up with a business model?
Its like having a car washing business and charging 100 dollars a car in your ads. Then saying its just an example, it makes no god damn sense.
Also tell me about the rakeback your site offers.
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On July 09 2013 02:42 Batiste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:41 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:34 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:31 MrTortoise wrote:
12% rake?
Rofl thats criminal
So i have a 50% win loss play 8 matches and you have raked a whole match worth of winnings?
you would need about 70% win rate to be a winner which would automatically move you out of the skill bracket you claim to be in.
Broken system is broken. I'll repeat what I said shall I? That's only if you play for the same amount of money in every game... you can still be on profit even if you have a 50% win rate, just depends on how much you play for in each game If you have any rake and you win 50% you have lost by definition because you care about your return on your investment when you repeat that action x number of times You don't understand equity. You don't understand that I 3 years experience in gambling for money on by playing games, you don't so please, shh you really have no clue what you're talking about, also in game you have 50/50 chance you'll win, Poker is not 50/50 so please don't pair them together
wow - i shuold just leave it there as anyone with a clue will be facepalming.
so your argument is that you can win 50% of games have rake and be a winner?
Can you explain how that is possible without varying the size of your bet?
Varying the size of your bet DOES NOT IMPROVE YOUR EQUITY. Equity is all anyone gives a shit about because thats where the skill is. You make bets with positive expected value you make money overall. You find suckers who think they are better than you (eg you right now) and you start a bet (or a argument on the forum) the loser simply wins looking like an idiot. He then goes on tilt and repeats the same mistake over and over.
Your equity is simply the amount you bet * odds of winning * rake .... (well not quite but simplistically this is the gist)
Seriously insulting people wont help you.
This is not 50:50 either .. you are talking about making bets ... noone makes 50:50 bets ... why would you noone stands to make anything if you repeat it.
Bets are made with odds laid on them ... people disagree about odds thats why they bet.
3 years of gambling and you dont seem to have a grasp of the basics.
Do you want to play some poker? Ill be really nice to you all game.
Oh I understand .. you are going to have negative rake? For every game played the players get 12% to split? That makes everything you say make sense all of a sudden. Im so silly.
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Just out of curiosity, OP, do you think roulette/blackjack/other various casino games that aren't poker can be played profitably? If so, please outline your system. If not, please explain how they are any different than the system you proposed or whatever system this gambling site you use uses. Also, can you please link this site?
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On July 09 2013 02:56 templar rage wrote:
Just out of curiosity, OP, do you think roulette/blackjack/other various casino games that aren't poker can be played profitably? If so, please outline your system. If not, please explain how they are any different than the system you proposed or whatever system this gambling site you use uses. Also, can you please link this site?
you lie i just make $200 in vegas .. you can make money off craps ... (actually i really did!!)
needless to say its a shame as i enjoyed the game and now can never play it again to make money.
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United States996 Posts
On July 09 2013 02:52 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:42 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:41 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:34 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:31 MrTortoise wrote:
12% rake?
Rofl thats criminal
So i have a 50% win loss play 8 matches and you have raked a whole match worth of winnings?
you would need about 70% win rate to be a winner which would automatically move you out of the skill bracket you claim to be in.
Broken system is broken. I'll repeat what I said shall I? That's only if you play for the same amount of money in every game... you can still be on profit even if you have a 50% win rate, just depends on how much you play for in each game If you have any rake and you win 50% you have lost by definition because you care about your return on your investment when you repeat that action x number of times You don't understand equity. You don't understand that I 3 years experience in gambling for money on by playing games, you don't so please, shh you really have no clue what you're talking about, also in game you have 50/50 chance you'll win, Poker is not 50/50 so please don't pair them together wow - i shuold just leave it there as anyone with a clue will be facepalming.
agreed with respect to rake
even with OPs unique understanding of math, the larger problem of creating a secure environment to protect the integrity of the players and of the game seems to be near impossible. what if any safeguards are there against me playing on one of any number of my friends accounts who all sort of stink and then having them cash out. are there any safeguards against maphacking? i think if you could run a service that forced players to play on webcams while having to previously submit their ID to your gambling site and having some sort of program to deny the possibility of maphacking (or a clause of play at your own risk) then that would be a good starting place. without that its just going to be the biggest scamming ground of all time.
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On July 09 2013 02:52 illrush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:04 Heyoka wrote:
Your original post was called "gambling on StarCraft" and that's your answer. The legal and social implications of a huge, publicly traded company encouraging their users, many of whom are underage, to gamble on their product for cash are hugely negative. The logistics can never work out in a way where it's worth their effort.
Also 12% rake is pretty laughable. Couldn’t be more accurate. Years ago I worked with a company then called “Neteller” that dealt exclusively with online gambling funds transfers. To make a long story short in 2006 the U.S government started strictly enforcing the ‘federal wire act’ which prohibits the transfer of funds across state lines for the purpose of betting on sport. The idea that Blizzard would segregate their largest market (The US) is outlandish. To go even further they would have to confirm the Identity and age of every single Battle.net client to confirm they’re of age and would be forced to close the accounts of those who aren’t, as already stated that would be a large portion of the online populace. I guess in the end it’s a somewhat interesting idea to talk about, but it’s not even in the realm of being considered or remotely plausible. On a side note does anyone want to bet that someone will figure a way to turn this into a religious debate? Anyone here willing to be a commissioner for a cut off the top!?
If they made a new website for the whole thing they wouldn't have to close accounts, so it won't effect anyone if they didn't want to play for money simple
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On July 09 2013 02:59 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:52 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:42 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:41 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:34 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:31 MrTortoise wrote:
12% rake?
Rofl thats criminal
So i have a 50% win loss play 8 matches and you have raked a whole match worth of winnings?
you would need about 70% win rate to be a winner which would automatically move you out of the skill bracket you claim to be in.
Broken system is broken. I'll repeat what I said shall I? That's only if you play for the same amount of money in every game... you can still be on profit even if you have a 50% win rate, just depends on how much you play for in each game If you have any rake and you win 50% you have lost by definition because you care about your return on your investment when you repeat that action x number of times You don't understand equity. You don't understand that I 3 years experience in gambling for money on by playing games, you don't so please, shh you really have no clue what you're talking about, also in game you have 50/50 chance you'll win, Poker is not 50/50 so please don't pair them together wow - i shuold just leave it there as anyone with a clue will be facepalming. agreed with respect to rake even with OPs unique understanding of math, the larger problem of creating a secure environment to protect the integrity of the players and of the game seems to be near impossible. what if any safeguards are there against me playing on one of any number of my friends accounts who all sort of stink and then having them cash out. are there any safeguards against maphacking? i think if you could run a service that forced players to play on webcams while having to previously submit their ID to your gambling site and having some sort of program to deny the possibility of maphacking (or a clause of play at your own risk) then that would be a good starting place. without that its just going to be the biggest scamming ground of all time.
Reminds me of all the attempts at betting on any game.
Then you have match fixing, money laundering ... all these laws being different depending on country. You'd also have to copy passports and credit cards with proof of address.
Its not that it can't work but its more like you need a gigantic angel investor to give you the insane capital and knowledge you need to set it up - at which point you only have a very small share in something that took a crap ton of work to build.
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On July 09 2013 02:59 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:52 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:42 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:41 MrTortoise wrote:On July 09 2013 02:34 Batiste wrote:On July 09 2013 02:31 MrTortoise wrote:
12% rake?
Rofl thats criminal
So i have a 50% win loss play 8 matches and you have raked a whole match worth of winnings?
you would need about 70% win rate to be a winner which would automatically move you out of the skill bracket you claim to be in.
Broken system is broken. I'll repeat what I said shall I? That's only if you play for the same amount of money in every game... you can still be on profit even if you have a 50% win rate, just depends on how much you play for in each game If you have any rake and you win 50% you have lost by definition because you care about your return on your investment when you repeat that action x number of times You don't understand equity. You don't understand that I 3 years experience in gambling for money on by playing games, you don't so please, shh you really have no clue what you're talking about, also in game you have 50/50 chance you'll win, Poker is not 50/50 so please don't pair them together wow - i shuold just leave it there as anyone with a clue will be facepalming. agreed with respect to rake even with OPs unique understanding of math, the larger problem of creating a secure environment to protect the integrity of the players and of the game seems to be near impossible. what if any safeguards are there against me playing on one of any number of my friends accounts who all sort of stink and then having them cash out. are there any safeguards against maphacking? i think if you could run a service that forced players to play on webcams while having to previously submit their ID to your gambling site and having some sort of program to deny the possibility of maphacking (or a clause of play at your own risk) then that would be a good starting place. without that its just going to be the biggest scamming ground of all time.
And you're completely right and I think you're like the only guy here who's actually putting a an argument who can back up everything they say.. Obviously this playing for cash can not possibly happen until Blizzard sort out how to fix maphacking, I'm just setting an example of what could happen in the future of starcraft and give it a bigger community and helps things like WCS have a bigger prize pool, obviously with Starcraft the flaw will be level system and maphackers, but (hard to say as TL won't let me say the website and show you) The site I use to gamble for money, it had no flaws at all, the site was partnered with the game makers and had it's own separate lobby where it would automatically setup the game for you and invite your opponent then straight after the game finished the result got posted from the game stats onto the site so there was no reporting etc for the players. And the staff was very experienced in dealing with people who may be lying and always said, we require video evidence if they guy you played ''cheated'' but that was before the system got partnered with the game
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I would still very much like a link to this site, OP.
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a bunch of people have already described why this would be incredibly difficult to make work, so i'll just throw in that I, too, would never even consider doing this. just like pretty much everyone else that has commented thus far. so i'm not sure you'd have a huge market even if everything somehow worked out.
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OP: a 12% rake is MASSIVE, there are no ifs ands or buts about that. Its true, you could make money by doubling down to cover your losses (this is a classic martingale progression, and a recipe for disaster btw) but more likely you will just lose money. If you cant win the 62% of your games to break even on a flat bet, upping it wont help you do anything but lose more and faster.
The other issue is that in order to win at 62% you need to be playing against people much worse. In a scenario of evenly matched competitors, only the website wins, since neither player has a big edge and the rake eats up a small edge and then some.
At this point, why would you play a losing game like that instead of just playing FREE on bnet?
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On July 09 2013 03:24 rikter wrote:
OP: a 12% rake is MASSIVE, there are no ifs ands or buts about that. Its true, you could make money by doubling down to cover your losses (this is a classic martingale progression, and a recipe for disaster btw) but more likely you will just lose money. If you cant win the 62% of your games to break even on a flat bet, upping it wont help you do anything but lose more and faster.
The other issue is that in order to win at 62% you need to be playing against people much worse. In a scenario of evenly matched competitors, only the website wins, since neither player has a big edge and the rake eats up a small edge and then some.
At this point, why would you play a losing game like that instead of just playing FREE on bnet?
To make money, just the same reason why people go Casinos, and at Casinos the odds are much worse and this requires skill so odds are better, and you may say to make money you need to play people worse then you but don't the game also has the element of luck and cheese into it, and at low level anyone could beat anyone and just like top level GM... Anyone can take atleast one game off anyone else even if they're an avreagely not as good, but gambling is about taking chances, if people want to be, lets say pussy, then they'll find it harder to find a a game and it will take twice as long for them to make money then others at the same level that take the risk... Just don't forgot I have experience in this so trying to say no that's ins't true... just shh and keep it to yourself
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On July 09 2013 03:36 Batiste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:24 rikter wrote:
OP: a 12% rake is MASSIVE, there are no ifs ands or buts about that. Its true, you could make money by doubling down to cover your losses (this is a classic martingale progression, and a recipe for disaster btw) but more likely you will just lose money. If you cant win the 62% of your games to break even on a flat bet, upping it wont help you do anything but lose more and faster.
The other issue is that in order to win at 62% you need to be playing against people much worse. In a scenario of evenly matched competitors, only the website wins, since neither player has a big edge and the rake eats up a small edge and then some.
At this point, why would you play a losing game like that instead of just playing FREE on bnet? To make money, just the same reason why people go Casinos, and at Casinos the odds are much worse and this requires skill so odds are better, and you may say to make money you need to play people worse then you but don't the game also has the element of luck and cheese into it, and at low level anyone could beat anyone and just like top level GM... Anyone can take atleast one game off anyone else even if they're an avreagely not as good, but gambling is about taking chances, if people want to be, lets say pussy, then they'll find it harder to find a a game and it will take twice as long for them to make money then others at the same level that take the risk... Just don't forgot I have experience in this so trying to say no that's ins't true... just shh and keep it to yourself Why make a thread if you shoo everyone not agreeing away?
Only looking at you math skills imo you're not even worth listening to, so shhhh and keep it to yourself.
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It would make a lot more sense I you just made it diamond or masters and above. Then you wouldn't have scrubs playin in it.
As for hacking it would really screw up the 1v1s so having an ID would be goo and all, but in the end it wouldn't be worth the trouble of going to court with them or banning them cause they could just make a
New account.
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Its not a bad idea. Its just a bad presentation.
I only play sc for funz though. As I see it, pros will shark around to take all the money.
Do you think that hopeless pros like Huk will keep laddering if they can go on your site and take the casual's cash?
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EPT
