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On July 05 2013 11:55 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense. It won't help. Terrans will start to just drop hellbats and fly away to bring next hellbats. Its only 200 minerals and can easily do 1000+ mineral damage. Removing light damage bonus and making it upgrade is a good start.
But removing ALL light dmg is not good
1. (least supported argument) It is inconsistent with hellion which has some +light dmg and IPI upgrade gives more.
2. (some people and MY favorite!) adjusting dmg to 18+4light will only 3 shots SCV but not other workers. and IPI upgrade of course gives the dmg back.
+ Show Spoiler + I actuall wants BOTH dmg nerf and bio tag removed for the firebat sake (poor firebat. he didn't do nothing wrong but to die in front line  ) but I shall settle for dmg nerf for now. JUST FOR NOW,
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On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote:
My 2 ideas for balance:
1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored.
Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though.
2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
1. This nerf will make effect on not only TvT but other match ups (as you have mentioned) that are relatively ok (if no 2 gets done). it will make ok with TvT but will make terran mech cry in late PvT because every single unit will die out by immortals. and zergs will die out too quickly in TvZ for they don't have UNIT with +armor (after inferstor nerf.).
2. My suggestion! +10^10^10! but maybe making transformation 50/50 60s, just to stop hellion runby and transform straight away as soon as factory finishes. I think we should adjust transformation time as well. 4s is just too long to be useful. 2~3 game second maybe?
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On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote:
My 2 ideas for balance:
1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored.
Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though.
2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit:
Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
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Can we not make them cost gas, while raising the cost of the Transformation Servos upgrade?
This way Terrans can't crank it out at crazy rates, and if they want to get hellbats without investing gas for each hellbat they have to do an expensive research.
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On July 05 2013 12:49 xAdra wrote:
Can we not make them cost gas, while raising the cost of the Transformation Servos upgrade?
This way Terrans can't crank it out at crazy rates, and if they want to get hellbats without investing gas for each hellbat they have to do an expensive research.
Gahhh, stop trying to nerf hellbats without enough evidence that hellbats are OP by themselves.
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I think the best option would be to not allow hellbats to be built from the factory. Therefore the only way you could obtain hellbats in the game is by getting the armory and then the transformation servos upgrade. Either that or just tone down the damage a bit until blue flame, but I believe the first idea is much better.
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On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote:
Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
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Just remove the damn bio tag and see were we are from there.
To all those that say that might be problematic because of the lower dmg done by the archon:
Toss players would actually be able to storm Hellbats and do lasting dmg. I am quite sure that over all Hellbats would not be harder to deal with in PvT then right now.
I also think over all the proposed banshee change was also not that bad, considering the easier detection for all races. Maybe they could also play with the energy cost of cloak. In the end the banshee should be a lower investment and have a lower dmg potential. Right now the harassment options not seem to be balanced.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On July 05 2013 12:19 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote:
My 2 ideas for balance:
1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored.
Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though.
2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT) I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy. So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds.. This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all. Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please >< Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
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Remove light tag from scv and hellion.
Easy fix, can't believe it hasn't already been considered.
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On July 05 2013 16:03 Lock0n wrote:
Remove light tag from scv and hellion.
Easy fix, can't believe it hasn't already been considered.
so bit byyy biiiiit where an scv tanks 3 baneling hits? rip in pieces zerg
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change or remove the speedvac not the hellbats. fast medivac were completely unwarranted to begin with. good players didnt need it in WOL, not sure where did the blizzards "drops were useless" came from
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make it not possible to load hellbat to medivac!!
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Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?!
Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
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On July 05 2013 16:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?!
Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
We didn't say koreans have failed to adapt to deal with hellbat drop.
But the thing is that they deal hellbat drop with hellbat drop.
Hellbats everywhere~~~ is that why someone said we are playing hellbatcraft :p
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Fix it the mutalisk way.
Make turrets be able to target hellbats.
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On July 05 2013 16:57 Godwrath wrote:
Fix it the mutalisk way.
Make turrets be able to target hellbats.
haha, lol.
Or give mules an InstaGib attack that only works vs hellbats. 
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Hellbat drops raise the new standard bearer for cost efficiency in harassment as a general practice in this game, for all races, to a really absurd level. Oracles kind of do, as well, but they seem to be okay and have some real backlash as far as their relevance into the late game goes. The cost efficiency of this kind of mineral dumping, derived from the scale of effects (even forcing people to pull away from their mining does, typically, an equivalent if not higher amount of economic damage through delayed mining, than the hellions themselves cost. And this is not to say that, even though the drop is 'shut down' that everything, or anything is even lost.)
When you compare the effectiveness, let alone the cost effectiveness, of hellbat drops to other forms of dropping and harassment of peoples mineral lines.. these are the new kid on the block, and by all means they seem to be doing a bang-up job. Short of the constant barrage of games that we as fans of starcraft are regularly experiencing, and have been since the beta - we can think about a few other hallmarks that separate this from most comparable harasses.
1) Scouting hellbat drops and preparing for and otherwise reacting to them seems to achieve less than what takes place when people scout the other forms of mineral line harass, which can actually be shut down. The grace withi which players can scout and shut down other harassments is not merely the product of experience with those circumstances, but rather a plain and pitiful display of how extreme this harass is, and how extreme we have to be, and appear - by contrast to our handling of other harassments, to deal with these. More damage is taken by the harassed, and less is lost by the harassing player.
2) Most mineral line harassments are comprised of units that generally aren't good for later game army compositions. And these units require gas and out of the way tech. Subsequently, the Terran players are happier to throw away hellbats than most players are with any of their worker line harassing units.
3) The apm required to execute vs dealing with hellbat drops is imbalanced. While I agree that this kind of difference is not fundamentally corrosive to the game, or representative of a violation of some axiom of criteria for balance that has to exist - and indeed, there are many examples in the game already where this kind of imbalance is well accepted and not a screaming issue of balance (See: I am clearly not talking about the difference in apm required to use widow mines vs dealing with them) I still think that it is worth taking into account, especially from this lens of comparison to other worker line harassments, which tend to require less apm to deal with.
4) The resources, impact to ones own momentum, that has to be taken in stride to actually be safe against the tested threat of hellbat drops is pretty silly compared to most mineral line harassments at large, and even more so when we consider the investments of resources required (and the blow to momentum) to execute various mineral line harassments, contrasted by the resources committed to a mere hellbat drop. While I might drop spores in every mineral line to shut down, say, banshees, or phoenixes, or oracles; a spore and a spine at each mineral line is a standard and minimal response to ones inclination to actually be safe against one medivac with two hellbats in it. This includes the granted presence of a queen or two. Just look at how obtuse it is to see terrans building a bunker and a turret next to each other in or around their mineral lines, or zergs doing the same with spores and spines. Since when was this how we dealt with harass? Cannons in the mineral line has gone from being a newb cliche to a match-up standard? Having to invest in firm static defenses, rather than what we have always done? I'm fine with change, but this seems pretty obviously silly and it is currently in the air, awaiting changes.
In my opinion, there isn't much left to ask about whether hellbat drops are imbalanced. That question was already answered by Blizzard in their efforts to nerf hellbat drops to the degree that they have. The question, then, became; how should we address this issue? We're experiencing the first iteration, a fairly obvious and simple change. But it is pretty clear to the community, and seemingly, still, to David Kim? That more is to be done. Although, I'll confess - it boggles me that they reference hellbat drops as being problematic to TvT while shirking their presence in the other match-ups entirely. I'm serious, it keeps boggling me, everytime I think of it.
There is a lot of dumb balancing that went on with HotS that we are still sorting out. The new unit designs in general seemed to be geared toward helping the game to appeal as a spectator sport, with the inherent valuation of degrees of diversity in what people are watching. Unfotunately, actual game balance seems to have been overlooked in a lot of areas with HotS. Even hearing Blizzard's recent talk about why they think this or that about certain units or desired changes, they seem to speak at least as much about wanting things to be fun for spectators as they do for actually wanting t he game to be balanced. And never in the same breath. I'm sure Blizzard wants to have a balanced game, but I think they are being pretty derpy about a fair few things in HotS, so it's not quite happening.
It's disappointing when you see them trying out random buffs just for the sake of excitement for spectators (warp prism buff, that's the only reasoning I saw.) It's a marked departure from the reserved, hyper- concerned with only balance approach that we could rely on and appreciate out of Blizzard during WoL. Even if things were turbulent, you didn't have shenannigans like this going on, and they made an effort to help people to feel that they were genuinely concerned about balance, and just wanted to be patient - careful. I really don't experience that attitude with Blizzard anymore. I hear loose imitations of those old doctrines, hushed by the astonishing expressions of making changes to the games balance soley out of concerns that have nothing to do with balance. It's bewildering, really.
What's further disappointing about this is that I don't really believe that anything speedvac related makes the game more interesting. Rather, this has promoted a really boring hyperfocus to defending 1-3 bases. People move out on the map less, it seems. There is a very valid paranoia about drop play, from all races, against Terran. Styles like roach hydra in tvz are largely crippled, short of the highest level of play, by the relative ease of executing speedvac drops (note: much swifter and thus better able to exploit boundaries in terrain than drop play ever was) verse the inherent clunkiness of a ground based army which has no real hope of actually shutting down the drops with a note of permanence. This ruins a sense of gameflow where map control can be vied for, and, subsequently, muta ling baane has become the standard in ZvT, leaving our hopes for roach hydra play as.. well, certainly not the most preferred playstyle, according to all the pro starcraft I've been watching - and I do watch a lot.
There are entirely new standards for the meaning and value of drop play for Terran, in all matches. The impromptu doom drop into the main is always a nice way to change up and exploit the false sense of security that any player has over holding off more routine, smaller scale harassment. As much attention as everyone is paying to handling that, you see it laughed at by these random, oh so swift doom drops that, really, there is no reason for Terran not to be doing. Being able to shut down small scale harass effectively, over a variety of circumstances a nd distractions w ithin the game is one thing. Having random doom drops appear as quickly as this - which is quite easy to pull off, given the advantages that Terrans have in map control, through well-executed harassment w/ speedvacs. It just seems like a really ill-considered change to make, so drastically effecting every match-up, and with noone receiving anything as any kind of counterbalance to it.
But, knowing that Blizzard would like for things to be balanced, this is all, ultimately, just a bunch of contextual contemplation that precedes future moments of enhanced balance, which, all the same, we have to be patient in waiting for. Or, at least, I would advise patience ^^
P.S. - The real problem with is the speed boost on medivacs, and the only thing that really shuts the drops down (See: you still lose more mining than in other worker harasses)is the inability for the medivac to be there anymore, or from your killing it. This is one of many reasons why the idea of "roaches" is a really uninformed guess at a solution. Speedvacs, like many changes to the games balance in HotS, were introduced out of concerns for spectator appeal, at least as much as for balance. By my estimate, which is partially informed by Blizzard's own expressions on their intentions for this general array of hots-specific balance changes since conception to present. For some quick examples of the rush work, the non-sensical details which have been especially overlooked in HotS at large, consider this:
A) Hellbats simply are a mechanical unit. They benefit from mechanical upgrades. The damage they take is decreased based on upgrades to their plating. But their damage can be healed by medivacs, which only heal biological units. This is actually a really embarassing detail, if you're willing to take the game seriously enough and to criticize Blizzard for blatantly shoddy, balance-negligent game design.
B) Widow mines splash damage hits everything, above and below ground, except for other widow mines - whether above or below ground. Nowhere in Starcraft 1 or 2 has a unit had some weird and self-convenient dynamic like this, which defies the consistency of the games physics so sharply. It seems like another glossed over, even unconsidered matter. And the almost complete overshadowing of a staple unit like the Siege Tank by the widow mine, unforeseen, but now as an expressed 'concern'. Siege tanks obsolete? Yeah, that's the degree of silliness Blizzard got involved in with HotS.
P.S. 2 - Making changes to the fundamental, consistent dynamics of the game in ways that Blizzard has will necessarily complicate the task of making maps that are considerate of these unique details, some of which.. shall we say, "fly" at odds with the ways in which things typically work - ways which also need to be addressed in map design? And I love me some mapmakers, but realistically, this doesn't merely replace dynamics but complicates them, and I have never met a map maker that was also a pro-gamer. Truly well-designed maps are hard to come by, and I'm sure that is in part due to the high expertise necessary to do this. Not that Blizzard understands this aspect of their game very well at all, from all the maps we've seen come out of them.
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On July 05 2013 15:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 12:19 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote:
My 2 ideas for balance:
1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored.
Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though.
2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT) I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy. So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds.. This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all. Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please >< Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly. ... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have. It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
While I think tanks should be stronger against hellbats, i agree that giving hellbats the armored tag is not a godd idea, but for a totally different reason : hellions would become weaker to defend hellbats (sice they do +6 damage to light without blue flame) and some builds revolve around defending the first two hellbat drops with 6+ hellions.
if hellbat became armored, it would become even more difficult to defend the first 2 hellbat drops
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EPT
