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On July 05 2013 09:04 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote:On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote:
Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along. Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later. This is right there with that blue flame helion drop into banshee BC rubbish that was all over the US server a year and a half ago. In the end the Slayers worked out you could just make BFH and win without pretending it was a skyterran/tankless revolution. If you have to do something that cheesy to get ahead to go into a style then the style is bad. That said I don't think the drops are needed to go into mech. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote:
Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
Also note that if Terran is just balanced because of the free wins helion drops are throwing into the stats, that implies Terran is otherwise weak, that's no balance at all. Again I don't think this is true. There are bad players relying on hellbat drops to hit above their skill level who'll argue to the end to keep it. Good terrans no doubt think its annoying and lame, as do most of we randoms.
And when good pro players started to abuse that, hellbat drop war has been on the match ups lately. NOT FUN AT ALLL!!!!
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On July 05 2013 08:49 Rhaegal wrote:
I got a bud who says that he hates hellbats because they make bio unusable, and that he hates mech because it takes "no apm" and it's easier than bio.
Then I watch him play and he has 100 apm and sits on 3 base massing a bio army, while the mech player drops and counter attacks more than he does...
I get the feeling a lot of people who complain about hellbats are like my friend. Hellbats do not make TvT worse. It doesn't add luck. They increase the skillcap of mech by quite a large margin compared to wings.
Maybe worse to watch, but the better players wins TvT more than any other matchup.
you have ONE friend who does that and you assume a lot of us are playing like him?
we are complaining about how early it can hit and how much preparing we need to defend it.
Mid game wise it's not THAT bad. It's the hellbat drop opening that is troublesome and arguably what everyone is disliking hellbat drop is about it only.
Hellbat drops only lead to more hellbat drops etc
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I would personally like to see what a hitbox size increase would do to the Hellbat drop--since they are bulky enough to take up 4 spots in a Medivac, it only stands to reason that their hitbox should be a bit bulkier as well, preventing them from going through small building gaps. Having the ability to maze one's base to have exit routes could have some neat potential without making the entire strat useless.
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Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
That really isn't the issue.
The issue is it being bio is actually a nerf to mech and a buff to bio.
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On July 05 2013 09:32 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense. That really isn't the issue. The issue is it being bio is actually a nerf to mech and a buff to bio.
Does Terran mech deserve to be nerfed? No.
Does Terran bio deserve to be buffed? No.
Remove the bio tag please.
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On July 05 2013 09:29 shelfofjustice wrote:
I would personally like to see what a hitbox size increase would do to the Hellbat drop--since they are bulky enough to take up 4 spots in a Medivac, it only stands to reason that their hitbox should be a bit bulkier as well, preventing them from going through small building gaps. Having the ability to maze one's base to have exit routes could have some neat potential without making the entire strat useless.
That sounds good. But how big it should it be though? the thing is that it is a transformation from hellion (you can't tell by looking at the current unit though!), it shouldn't be too big as thor. maybe between tank and hellion I guess?
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
I hope they will do some + on top of that. just removing bio tag (non-healable so to speak) still keep hellbats to gril workers to their cost (so at least 2 workers kill+ stopped mining time.)
EDIT: I hope they will do some more nerf on top of that. maybe
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What if they just added all of the units that are in campaign like goliaths and then balanced those units? I mean, they have all of these perfectly fine units to choose from, they just never even mess with them. Why would they create an entirely new unit (hellbat) instead of just changing goliaths into something good..? Mech has always needed some "tank" unit (ironically not the tanks) to soak up damage and be in the way. Hellbats are alright at this, except every mech unit that is strong also happens to be really slow, making mech susceptible to counterattacks and getting caught off-guard. Also, since thors are the only anti-air, for the most part, a unit like goliath would work nicely.
And if they were to add ALL (or a lot) of the campaign-only units, it could vary play up considerably. Science vessel would have been really interesting, had it not been semi-converted into the Raven. Vultures? Yes please! Diamondback? Sure, why not? Wraiths? Hell, someone might be able to find a use for them over the Viking + Banshees. The same could be said for Zerg as well. Unfortunately, I don't know how many Protoss campaign-specific units there are since we don't have Protoss as a playable campaign race yet... But there might be a few? Who knows, just come up with some more! [edit] Oh, just remembered the scout. Since the voidray and oracle both are in need of a change due to how incredibly poorly they were designed, the scout could potentially fill that niche. It's cool having more air-units if you ask me, but numbers and even designs would need definite changes.
Hellbat is a horribly designed unit and should obviously be changed. Terran might be bad without them, but when they are rushed to in every match-up quite often, it should be a sign. I remember this one TvT (I think it was Inno vs. Alive) and Alive tried to go a marine-heavy CC opener and just flat-out died to Innovation's hellbat drops. It wasn't even close. Hellbats just don't reflect skill well enough. Though, Innovation does have a bit of a gift for hellbat style...
But back to the main point, just adding a unit like the goliath and balancing it would be a decent solution. Number balancing can fix things, too. I presume they will just number nerf the hellbat in a few ways though.
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This is my final stand. critic me if i'm wrong 
1. Remove bio tag (to make it less synesied with medivac when dropped.). (-point: causes some issue with archon dmg)
2. Make 18+4 light at the beginning so that early drop is not that efficient in TvT ONLY. Can research back with pre-igniter upgrade.
(not sure what would be bad.maybe not enough nerf?)
3. If ppl still want bio tag, make a research of 50/50 60s or 100/100 90s that allows hellbat to be biological and transform. (-point: does ppl really want/use hellion/hellbat transformation)
@blargh. That is a good idea but blizzard won't introduce more units (esp BW units!) until Lov comes out. That's what they have said and make me sad 
EDIT: what I want is 1+2. or 1+2+3. not just one of them.
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Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
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On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
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On July 05 2013 10:20 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Yea. Terran lowest winrate in June. Hellbat's simply do too much damage. How can anyone possible counter them.
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On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
But the thing is that
On July 04 2013 23:55 Big J wrote:
I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying.
However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders.
Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops.
I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
This. hellbat/medivac combo is too cost effective in EARLY GAME.
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On July 05 2013 10:20 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Atleast your cat is out of the bag.
This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
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On July 05 2013 10:24 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 10:20 jkim91 wrote:On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much. Atleast your cat is out of the bag. This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
Ok... ppl come here.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416744¤tpage=45#895
EDIT the above linked thread is older. And I think that is still in the drop play issue? because hellbat can be healed and must be with medivac all the time. and hellbats have been really cost effective because when dropped they just don't die because of medivac support. And even if you just drop hellbat and not heal it, it still kills enough to be cost effective
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On July 05 2013 10:24 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 10:20 jkim91 wrote:On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote:
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much. Atleast your cat is out of the bag. This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
Hmm, I should've written sarcasm in my post.
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Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
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On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote:
Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
That sounds ok in balance but you really don't want to see ANY hellbat drop plays in other match ups? there is no ground unit that cannot be loaded and the debuff is very annoying. I know that it can't go in to the bunker (once it could) but that is just too much isn't it?
I'm pretty sure making hellbat 18 +4 light at the start (to 3 shots SCV but not other workers) and give it back with some costs in the mid-late game would be fine (least nerf)?
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On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote:
Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
It won't help. Terrans will start to just drop hellbats and fly away to bring next hellbats. Its only 200 minerals and can easily do 1000+ mineral damage.
Removing light damage bonus and making it upgrade is a good start.
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My 2 ideas for balance:
1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Immortals deal with early mech pushes better. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored.
Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though.
2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
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EPT
