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On July 04 2013 23:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops. I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
I found Keen playing perfect in the Bomber vs Keen game till that quad drop came in that indeed roasted everything. With a bit less damage on HB that could have turned out pretty good for Keen. Because Keen also slipped up a bit during that fight, he pulled his scvs but after that let them die.
I think that the combo Hellbat/Medivac is good for the spectators.
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On July 04 2013 23:51 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
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On July 04 2013 23:59 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 23:51 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes. Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light)
EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
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On July 04 2013 23:59 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 23:55 Big J wrote:On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops. I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo. I found Keen playing perfect in the Bomber vs Keen game till that quad drop came in that indeed roasted everything. With a bit less damage on HB that could have turned out pretty good for Keen. Because Keen also slipped up a bit during that fight, he pulled his scvs but after that let them die. I think that the combo Hellbat/Medivac is good for the spectators.
oh no...
Now i'm puzzled. I did not know that hellbats can be TAHT strong  maybe I should go with what others has been said from the hots release (and which I don't think blizzard will never like it).
NEFR THE DAMAGE AND REMOVE THE BIO TAG!!!
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I'm having several concept difficulties with Hellbats.
Firstly the transformation is really bad: increases HP, size and makes it bio.
It's almost like if hydralisk could transform into zealot.
So why not two separate units?
Who uses the transformation anyway, I think blizzard's redundancy design is flawed - hellbat and hellion roles aren't quite the same.
Second of all if it's bio make it build from barracks, if it's mech make it build from factory.
Thirdly hellbats for a light unit look pretty armored to me, like bigger marauders.
What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
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On July 05 2013 00:04 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 23:59 Koshi wrote:On July 04 2013 23:51 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes. Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade? No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light) EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games.
Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 05 2013 01:03 LastWish wrote:
I'm having several concept difficulties with Hellbats.
Firstly the transformation is really bad: increases HP, size and makes it bio.
It's almost like if hydralisk could transform into zealot.
So why not two separate units?
Who uses the transformation anyway, I think blizzard's redundancy design is flawed - hellbat and hellion roles aren't quite the same.
Second of all if it's bio make it build from barracks, if it's mech make it build from factory.
Thirdly hellbats for a light unit look pretty armored to me, like bigger marauders.
What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
If BFH openers ever become viable/popular again, I think the transformation upgrade might see use.... I'm really curious how the old gas first -> bfh -> expo -> reactor hellions/reactor vikings build would do vs hellbat drops... BFH kinda trade well with hellbats and if he goes something that the bfh dont trade well with you could get the servo upg and change them to bfh.
BFH do not require medivacs (as much as hellbats), which should let you win the viking war...
If you can win the viking war, bfh trade very well with grounded hellbats. Andddddddd unless you are fighting in your base you can probably run away until you've won the viking war (which you should win because you didnt make any medivacs). Anyway this is all in my head at this point but I think it could work.
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On July 05 2013 01:03 LastWish wrote:
What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
The problem is not the unit role but the bigger picture.
With warhound removal mech TvP had no chance and hellbat has been left without a clear purpose.
Turning it into drop unit was always senseless as it was a poorly veiled attempt to make mech play work more like bio.
Just without the mobility and in an expansion with a new set of counters.
There was never going to be a middle-ground between.useless and OP.
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Never thought I'd agree with Avilo on something, but why don't you support the removal of bio from the Hellbat? It won't be healable, pretty much fixing the problem with Hellbats in Bio playstyles, but making TvP mech more viable by drastically reducing the damage Hellbats take from Archons.
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I think that there are multiple ways to nerf Hellbat drops without hurting the actual Hellbat, such as causing Medivacs to take extra damage while under the effects of speed boost(not so much that drops become impossible, maybe 50% more damage?). This would make it incredibly difficult to drop onto turrets and static/active defenses and be able to extract the drop after the units have left the Medivac which would die soon after. (of course, in order to avoid unnecessary abuse of this mechanic, the boost should be able to be canceled early).
EDIT: this idea is really rough to implement, seeing as I just realized marine drops would get CRUSHED by static defenses (not that they don't already get fairly well countered)
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They should consider changing the speed boost so that the medivac can't drop while it is boosted. Speed boost is intended to make drops easier by offering better escaping mechanism, not for people to do dumb shit such as speed boosting over turrets to drop hellbats or mines.
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On July 05 2013 01:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If BFH openers ever become viable/popular again, I think the transformation upgrade might see use.... I'm really curious how the old gas first -> bfh -> expo -> reactor hellions/reactor vikings build would do vs hellbat drops... BFH kinda trade well with hellbats and if he goes something that the bfh dont trade well with you could get the servo upg and change them to bfh.
BFH do not require medivacs (as much as hellbats), which should let you win the viking war...
If you can win the viking war, bfh trade very well with grounded hellbats. Andddddddd unless you are fighting in your base you can probably run away until you've won the viking war (which you should win because you didnt make any medivacs). Anyway this is all in my head at this point but I think it could work.
Yes, Hellions/Vikings timings can work until he get either a Tank or Thor. BFH helps but isn't mandatory, you can hit & run ad infinitum with simple Hellions as well, but obviously it will take longer. That being said, all Mr. Hellbat needs is a single Bunker to stall for years (during that time, he get either a Thor, or Tanks) with Repair since Hellions aren't exactly good at destroying buildings.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417775
Flash: "I have no idea why they are nerfing hellbats. I know that you see a ton of hellbats for TvT, but in my personal opinion, you can’t use hellbats for TvP so it’s a useless unit for that matchup"
Is it ok to say Flash is wrong? There's so many highlevel TvP's with hellbats.
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On July 05 2013 01:04 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 00:04 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:59 Koshi wrote:On July 04 2013 23:51 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes. Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade? No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light) EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased? Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games. Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
It used to add +10 damage, it was nerfed down to +5 after that one MLG where all the Slayers Terrans won everything with BFH. This made it so BFH would three shot workers instead of two-shot workers (unless you maintained a 2 upgrade lead on your opponent).
It also had the side effect of making mech TvP utterly impossible. It was after this nerf that Goody started going bio in TvP for the remainder of WoL.
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On July 05 2013 03:15 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417775
Flash: "I have no idea why they are nerfing hellbats. I know that you see a ton of hellbats for TvT, but in my personal opinion, you can’t use hellbats for TvP so it’s a useless unit for that matchup" Is it ok to say Flash is wrong? There's so many highlevel TvP's with hellbats.
Yes. Flash is wrong.
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On July 05 2013 01:04 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 00:04 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:59 Koshi wrote:On July 04 2013 23:51 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote:
Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers. And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes. Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade? No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light) EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased? Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games. Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
oops. I shouldn't stay asleep when I'm posting 
It was 18+4. My mistake.
I was against your view (18+9 after BF) but now, I REALLY DON'T KNOW I thought only early hellbat DROP IN MINERAL LINE was the problem but now, I don't know what exactly is... i'm out
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I got a bud who says that he hates hellbats because they make bio unusable, and that he hates mech because it takes "no apm" and it's easier than bio.
Then I watch him play and he has 100 apm and sits on 3 base massing a bio army, while the mech player drops and counter attacks more than he does...
I get the feeling a lot of people who complain about hellbats are like my friend. Hellbats do not make TvT worse. It doesn't add luck. They increase the skillcap of mech by quite a large margin compared to wings.
Maybe worse to watch, but the better players wins TvT more than any other matchup.
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On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote:
Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along. Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later.
This is right there with that blue flame helion drop into banshee BC rubbish that was all over the US server a year and a half ago. In the end the Slayers worked out you could just make BFH and win without pretending it was a skyterran/tankless revolution. If you have to do something that cheesy to get ahead to go into a style then the style is bad.
That said I don't think the drops are needed to go into mech.
On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote:
Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
Also note that if Terran is just balanced because of the free wins helion drops are throwing into the stats, that implies Terran is otherwise weak, that's no balance at all. Again I don't think this is true. There are bad players relying on hellbat drops to hit above their skill level who'll argue to the end to keep it. Good terrans no doubt think its annoying and lame, as do most of we randoms.
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EPT
