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On June 17 2013 12:45 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 12:23 BaronVonOwn wrote:On June 17 2013 07:19 cerebralz wrote:
What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future. They're also saying protoss lacks harass options, which is weird. They now have the phoenix, oracle, and blink stalkers, on top of the warp prism. If anything protoss has great harassment tools and poor front line units. Flat out, I've always considered stalkers and colossus to be pisspoor substitutes for dragoons and reavers. Stalkers cost more than marauders/roaches and do much less damage. Without the reaver, protoss is the only race that does not have a unit that can instantly neutralize large amounts of front line infantry like siege tanks and banelings can do. Psi storm is the closest thing they have to that, and psi storm was nerfed pretty hard in SC2 so it's easy to dodge. So what happens is protoss can't ever push out until they've built enough colossus to one-shot or two-shot enemy infantry and when they do push out it's a big game of protect the colossus while it slowly deals out its damage. Zerg has the opposite problem, really great front line units and poor harassment options. Aside from mutalisks how is Zerg supposed to harass a main base? Contaminate? lol? So really, they're going about this whole thing backwards. Great harassment tools... What is this I don't even... Phoenix = shut down by a single static defensive structure. Same with oracles. Blink stalkers have horrid DPS and are needed with your army to help defend colossi. Warp prisms are extremely slow, take time to phase in and out, and the units they harass with are nowhere near as strong as marines and marauders.
Yep. I don't even get the description that Oracle was meant to a strong harassment unit. lol (well entomb/cloakin field was way op...). I hope oracle was a pure caster with some other 'time controlling' abilities! Quote: "Oracle pilots, as these brilliant individuals hail from an order of young dark templar dedicated to understanding--and controlling--time itself" What?
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On June 17 2013 02:17 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote:
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something). The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool. There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground. There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
I lost to a 1-1-1 not too long ago on Neo Planet. PDD cancels out Nexus Cannon... and Siege Mode is free now. This Banshee buff might help make it even stronger.
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On June 17 2013 12:45 Wingblade wrote:
Great harassment tools... What is this I don't even...
Phoenix = shut down by a single static defensive structure. Same with oracles. Blink stalkers have horrid DPS and are needed with your army to help defend colossi. Warp prisms are extremely slow, take time to phase in and out, and the units they harass with are nowhere near as strong as marines and marauders.
What the... So if you build 4 phoenix and see 1 spore crawler in a mineral line you just give up? I'm not sure how you're using phoenix but when I open phoenix I almost always manage to immediately use up all their lift energy on drones and queens. If I don't it's usually because I don't have enough apm to go around. If I continue to mass phoenix then they can literally just sit there and lol at one spore while they lift and kill every worker in the base. In many ways it's easier to harass with phoenix rather than muta because they have greater speed, more HP, longer range, higher damage versus workers, and you don't have to shift queue workers when they are under fire.
Oracles definitely are vulnerable to turrets but are almost always devastating when unscouted. Besides think about what you're saying. How broken would this game be if banshees/mutas/phoenix could kill turrets 1v1? As for blink stalkers watch HuK's stream to see how he harasses terran armies with them sometime.
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On June 17 2013 02:17 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote:
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something). The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool. There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground. There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
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On June 17 2013 08:03 Patate wrote:
Talk about promoting cheesy play. If anything, all upgrades should cost more and should take more time, not the opposite..
Nah ... you dont get it. Blizzard is on the "more aggression at all cost" trip. They dont care if the game gets more and more luck based, because "more explosions and faster games are good, right"? The sad part is that people dont realize this problem more and it can only be solved by Blizzard going totally wild and "balancing" the game into a totally random game which no one wants to play and watch anymore.
Blizzard fails to realize that you get more aggression if you reduce the risk of losing. Protoss for example risk losing large chunks of their army if they poke with Stalkers into enemy bases. Why? Because the absolutely ridiculous overproduction of units in the game ... which results in no chance of escaping from a handful of Zerglings or Marines once a certain production capacity is reached. 1 Stalker against 3 Marines is fair and the Stalker can win this with good micro, BUT there will be a lot more Marines coming in a short period of time and due to the "Marine dps = Stalker dps" (roughly) you get an absolute explosion of total army dps for the Marines because they are all moving perfectly and get in range almost instantly. This could be countered by adding forced unit spreading instead of forced unit clumping to the game ...
Harrassment units / tactics are only used because they offer a relatively small risk and a potentially huge reward. The same can not be said for regular army engagements because of the super tight formation and gigantic numbers of units involved. This increases the kill speed to ludicrous amounts and means that as soon as you engage stuff dies. Thus people wait and wait until they reach the "natural limit" of 200 supply before attacking.
As I have said many times before ... we really need a reduced unit density to get more engagements, because then each engagement is not "final" and due to the slower kill speed you can actually use your skill to influence the outcome by microing individual units back/burrow (to regenerate shields for example). With the huge numbers in the engagements we have now it isnt really possible and reproducing units is easier anyways since you have the capability and the economy for it.
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They seem like reasonable balance changes to me, I for one am excited.
I've only very rarely gotten the cloak on the banshee in my sc2 career because the investment is so gigantic. Banshee's are fun to play and watch. And Banshee harrass will be shut down with viking raven and two turrets, unlike hellbat drops which will do damage if you don't leave a lot of units in your mineral line.
I can't believe people are already complaining about a banshee buff when it hasn't even been tested yet. The hellbats need changing, I totally support that, they're too strong.
The reaper isn't a harrass unit, it's a scouting unit. The banshee is no different to the oracle. The terrans main harrass unit should be the banshee. DT shrine was made cheaper too, so why not the banshee?
The 1-1-1 is a strong build. It's an all-in build. Much like one base blink stalkers The terran has to sack his expo when it happens so why should the protoss be able to defend 2 base against a 1 base terran build?
Oh right, protoss needs to comfortable get into the late game where even pro gaming terrans have a 30% winrate past 20 minutes.
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As a toss player, I dont see any issue with the banshee cloak research buff, if anything, it seems like it still wont promote banshee play against toss, since mine drop / hellbat drops are imo still far superior and isnt really a huge commitment, as opposed to banshee play.
On the other hand, I fail to see why terran players are really worried about the warp prism buff. In all honesty, its a huge buff yes, but not against terran, rather against zerg. As a toss player myself, even with the buff, I dont really see myself using the warp prism against terran anyway (at a time where the speed buff matters)
Unlike zerg, terran dont take 3 bases fast, which means they wont be spread out. Defending a warp prism is honestly quite easy compared to medivac drops, because the units a toss can put inside really cant do much dmg. Stalkers are a joke, zealots are viable but they really dont do much dmg since they are slower than workers and cant chase after workers when you pull them away. Double immortal drop is the only one that can possibly do some damage at that stage of the game (tech labs / reactors etc) but its quite a big commitment, and it sucks up a lot of build time off the robo.
On the other hand, zergs tend to take a third against a 2 base toss very early, makes them spread thinner. They got queens and hatcheries that you can snipe, even if the drones run away, or even key tech buildings like a spire thats building if they are not careful.
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Austria24422 Posts
If anything the banshee change will make protoss open stargate more often against gas openers now. But every standard protoss build involves 1 gate expand into something with detection anyway so I wouldn't say it affects the matchup much.
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Cheap banshee with range 6 vs more expensive Oracle with range 4.
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On June 17 2013 17:28 xokati wrote:
Cheap banshee with range 6 vs more expensive Oracle with range 4.
The Banshee cost is totally unaffected by this. But nice trolling!
And it's not like cloak was ever a problem to protoss or zerg. They need to get detection out soon anyway because of widow mines. So this change again only really effects TvT. And I agree, not in a good way!
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Wow. I didn't see that one coming. Banshee's gonna get popular real fast. More aggressive harass with less risk. Faster reaper, faster banshee, and free siege to defend anything until air is out on the field. It's like asking zergs & protoss to either turtle more, or to all in more.
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Banshee buff is too good atm. maybe 150 150 is fine. Just worried it will promote much more mech play over bio tank.
Mech play is so boring
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:12 klup wrote:
Banshee buff is too good atm. maybe 150 150 is fine. Just worried it will promote much more mech play over bio tank.
Mech play is so boring
Why do people think this is the case? Mech requires so much more thought and it way more exciting than bio tank. The bio in bio tank is practically cannon fodder and is pointless. Watching bio a-move into tanks is incredibly boring too.
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I think these changes make sense. I haven't seen many Banshees since HOTS came out, Hellbat drops were way more popular. I don't necessarily think the Banshee buff is a great idea, but I like that they're testing this.
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On June 17 2013 18:18 Mista_Masta wrote:
I think these changes make sense. I haven't seen many Banshees since HOTS came out, Hellbat drops were way more popular. I don't necessarily think the Banshee buff is a great idea, but I like that they're testing this.
Expensive units like the Banshee do not make sense in SC2 simply because they are killed too easily by many more units of lower cost. Thus Banshees are not part of an army unless the opponent has no anti-air, but once he switches they will die. The only refuge for them is to be used in harrassment, but as usual people pick the cheapest or most risk-free strategy to harrass.
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Still in shock that the 75/75 reactorable mines bypass immortal shields.
They're not nukes. How-
Argh.
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On June 17 2013 18:43 Sabu113 wrote:
Still in shock that the 75/75 reactorable mines bypass immortal shields.
They're not nukes. How-
Argh.
75/25 but also immortals and stalker outrange mines so np there.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:43 Sabu113 wrote:
Still in shock that the 75/75 reactorable mines bypass immortal shields.
They're not nukes. How-
Argh.
Well they're pretty much the only unit mech can get that actually does decent damage to shields, and immortals are immune to tanks so I think it's only fair.
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I am just curious, will terran still add helbats into their bio deathball when they see a lot of chargelots in TvP if this change is implentment? We already rarely see mech in TvZ, may be still make helbats require blueflame upgrade but lower the cost like some posters have already suggested to make mech more effective?
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On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote:
I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
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EPT
