On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
If Terran goes for the fast banshee instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If Protoss goes for the fast oracle instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If the Oracle defends the banshee but doesn't get to do damage, the game is probably pretty even.
(and the Oracle is really the most exotic choice to defend banshee harass)
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
I don't agree it's useless, but regardless, the stargate being "useless" has nothing to do with banshees or the cloak changes.
Also when Protoss go stargate vs Terran it usually comes down before the starport or at least comes down blind. You don't go stargate necessarily because you are responding to their starport, you do it because you chose initially to get it (probably to do oracle harass). Given that you have a stargate, in my opinion, you are in a better position if they DO go banshee than if they don't.
It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
People. I wonder many people are aware of this fact but this nerf will make transformation upgrade even more useless. (I have posted similar post under the thread Davies' comment on hellbat)
Now players must upgrade blue flame AND transformation servos to have full functional hellbat. which is not desirable for many players unless they have additional techlabs on factory to reduce research time. And the fact that transformation requires 4 seconds, it really does not benefits either hellbat or hellions in immediate use.
So, I propose two changes on Hellion/Hellbat Transformation
1. Remove the transformation upgrade and enable hellion transformation when the armory is built (so hellbat is no longer buildable)
OR
2. Remove the Bio tag for Hellbat but Transformation Servos now grants bio for Hellbat as well as transformation
On June 18 2013 13:27 Survivor61316 wrote: It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
Yeah, whats the deal Blizz?? Terran should have a mineral only, spam-able, aoe unit that slices through workers like butter!
On June 18 2013 13:27 Survivor61316 wrote: It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
Lol I don't even know if this post is serious or not. Nothing is supposed to be guaranteed when you do something in Starcraft, but "I can't do damage if my opponent defends correctly, and this is unacceptable!", really?
Why don't they just remove the Hellbat from the factory? It makes it so that the transformation upgrade is needed to "produce" Hellbats and delays the push / raises risk accordingly (the risk being the investment in the transformation upgrade and the delay being however long it takes to finish the research).
Also, I still don't understand why Hellbats need to be healed. Even without healing, they rip through Zealots and Lings. I don't see why the Zealot and Zergling are throw-away units while the Hellbat is not. It's also not like you can't still repair Hellbats for minerals only.
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
If Terran goes for the fast banshee instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If Protoss goes for the fast oracle instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If the Oracle defends the banshee but doesn't get to do damage, the game is probably pretty even.
(and the Oracle is really the most exotic choice to defend banshee harass)
I always wonder if there would be an advantage to exchange "fast" with the word "massive" in your sentences ... and do it after being greedy, i.e. getting the third. Sure enough the third is a risky base to hold, but I always wonder why people insist upon taking the obvious third instead of an "out of the way" one.
Protoss cant really produce that many Stalkers (because they dont have that many Warp Gates) early on and often enough they opt to get Sentries first to gather energy for an attack. What would happen if you were to hit them with 4+ Banshees at the time they really start producing stuff and want to move out? The Banshees can kill a lot of workers and be useful for defense (they dont care about Forcefields and cliffs for example). All you would need to do if you use them defensively against the Protoss army is to have SCVs to repair them in battle and try to position them at the edge of the concave. General base defense has to consist of a lot of bunkers, maybe an extra barracks to block off instead of a depot and a Siege Tank or two. Against Zerg you really need to hide the fact that you are building Banshees or else the Spore Crawlers - which will be built in response - will ruin your day. Thus a Viking or two to scare off Overlords and thus faking out "traditinal" mech might be helpful. Siege Tanks and a solid wall are needed to defend your bases from any counter. Building the wall out of Barracks seems a sensible idea since they have more hit points than depots (many more Banelings are needed to bust them) AND are larger, which means more SCVs can repair them. With a few Siege Tanks behind that it should be safe enough.
For the Protoss it doesnt seem to be as easy against Terrans because their cheapest units shoots air, but since you need quite a lot of Marines you could probably annihilate them if you had enough Oracles. In addition to the real ones you need to send a hallucinated or two as well and before the Terran realizes that and scans he has lost a few Marines; if he scans early you could retreat until it runs out. Against Zerg there is the question of how many Oracles you need to kill a Queen fast enough to be worth it. Phoenix + Void Ray might be better for that since they could also attack Spore Crawlers which are emergency-built for long enough to kill them.
Banshees would be more interesting if they were better in the midgame. Blizzard is too obsessed with filling their game with cheese and all-ins.
And why not skip the pretense and just make the hellbats from the barracks? We could even change their name to something else... fire... firesomething. Firebirds? Firerodents?
Anyway, obviously the numbers provided are fakes: they chose those numbers to get a knee jerk reaction from the community, so that everyone would be happier when they implement a lesser version of said changes...
What would happen if you were to hit them with 4+ Banshees at the time they really start producing stuff and want to move out? The Banshees can kill a lot of workers
They cast planetary nexus and move out? Not to mention by the time he has 4 banshees a toss should have plenty of stalkers to kill them.
Now players must upgrade blue flame AND transformation servos to have full functional hellbat. which is not desirable for many players unless they have additional techlabs on factory to reduce research time. And the fact that transformation requires 4 seconds, it really does not benefits either hellbat or hellions in immediate use.
I do think transformation servo's is way too expensive currently. But if you research it right now, you also have to upgrade blue flame. Otherwise your hellions are without blue flame.
On June 18 2013 16:38 Inimic wrote: Anyway, obviously the numbers provided are fakes: they chose those numbers to get a knee jerk reaction from the community, so that everyone would be happier when they implement a lesser version of said changes...
What numbers are you talking about? Also, tinfoil hats are not in style any more.
The speed upgrade on the warp prism won't feel significant anymore, since the base speed has already been increased while the max upgraded speed remains the same. I think that if Blizzard is going to keep upgrades in the game (and they should!), those upgrades should feel significant.
Maybe they could combine warp prism and observer speed into the same upgrade. It would make sense for both flying robotics units to benefit from the same drive tech.
On June 19 2013 01:34 Jerom wrote: Theoratically speaking, wouldn't a stargate opening completely obliterate any banshee openings ?
Well yeah, one oracle and one pheonix shuts down banshees completely
The cheaper cloak would make it play out differently, though. Cloak is almost a 100% certainty with that kind of cost and research time (you could start the cloak after the banshee and have it fast enough, also, there's a possibility to go banshee off of 1 gas, meaning more potential AA). By using envision with the oracle, it kinda removes the ability to use it for harassment, too. If anything, changes to banshee like this will weaken stargate play against banshee by making banshee less of a commitment.
EPT
