EPTCall to Action: June 14 Balance Testing - Page 30
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On June 18 2013 14:11 EFermi wrote: Yeah, whats the deal Blizz?? Terran should have a mineral only, spam-able, aoe unit that slices through workers like butter! What EFermni said, but I'd like to add a point. Back in the days of BW, the zerg had a unit that fired in a line. It had to be burrowed to attack, though that also meant you needed detection, but it wasn't super fast. These units killed workers in two hits. Oh, but wait...they cost 125/125. What are hellions and hellbats again?  | ||
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hRMsWash
United Kingdom2 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:52 FeyFey wrote: Interesting that so many care about the Banshee nerf. Seems to be the fear that a unit gets useful again and has to be taken into account again, so the game gets harder through variety. Well the sad part about the Banshee is that - apart from some extremely rare Sky-mech-terran applications - the unit is more or less useless as is every other air unit. Easy to use - through smartcast - Storm and Fungal have made sure of that; sadly they are necessary to be easy to use and chaincastable due to the high amount of units on the battlefield. I would rather like for the Banshee to be as useless as it can be ... because some more people might ask themselves why the unit is useless. Having it "enabled for early harrassment" only like they are trying to do now is a waste of the unit. At least the Reaper is cheap and will get scouting done, but the Banshee can be a total waste of resources if your opponent prepares for it ... at least if players arent changing the tactic and only start harrassing when they have 3+ Banshees (or whatever is enough to overcome early defenses which were built to deal with one of them). With 3+ Banshees you could even start harrassing the enemy army, because detection on the battlefield or outside a base is a little more difficult to come by. | ||
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ETisME
12632 Posts
In wol banshee were used by mvp as a safe mech opening against any roach attack instead of a pure worker line harassment unit. It annoys zergs third along with hellion poke etc. That plus wasting fungal energy was also extremely important for mvp mech. Didn't gumiho use banshee old school wol style mech recently | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 19 2013 23:57 ETisME wrote: Still too early to say banshee is useless though. In wol banshee were used by mvp as a safe mech opening against any roach attack instead of a pure worker line harassment unit. It annoys zergs third along with hellion poke etc. That plus wasting fungal energy was also extremely important for mvp mech. Didn't gumiho use banshee old school wol style mech recently The point is there is no point in building lots of Banshees as part of your army composition. No Terran air unit really has a point of being part of the core army and Vikings are only "needed" when you want to get air superiority ... but since the Banshee cant shoot air it has no place there. The good old Wraith was a much better flyer IMO, because you still had a pitiful ground attack in addition to the air attack. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 20 2013 00:58 Rabiator wrote: The point is there is no point in building lots of Banshees as part of your army composition. No Terran air unit really has a point of being part of the core army and Vikings are only "needed" when you want to get air superiority ... but since the Banshee cant shoot air it has no place there. The good old Wraith was a much better flyer IMO, because you still had a pitiful ground attack in addition to the air attack. Pitful? look at this Part 1 Part 2 Wraith could cloak and had high air dps with some ground attack that still kills workers. Banshee have only ground attack with no air attack what so ever. No wonder overlord had detections back in BW. If terran have wraith now, no one gonna play other races! | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines) | ||
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pmp10
3380 Posts
On July 01 2013 15:21 Honeybadger wrote: hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted. Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines) You cannot remove damage bonus against only workers. The change would have to affect zerglings and zealots by cutting down DPS by a third against light units. | ||
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Mongoose
United Kingdom190 Posts
I hate cloaked banshees too - Might be fun for spectators to see one banshee take out 15 workers, but it's not fun to play against. Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On July 01 2013 16:18 Mongoose wrote: Hellbat nerf seems fairly positive (workers killed in 3 shots instead of 2), but in my opinion the HP needs to be nerfed more than the damage. A hellbat being healed by a medivac needs like 8 marines to take down (estimate) and your marines need to be spread out. I hate cloaked banshees too - Might be fun for spectators to see one banshee take out 15 workers, but it's not fun to play against. Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much I think the problem is that you arent playing sc2 much, since what you say about warp prism pre-buff is outright wrong. Also the banshees would have a pretty direct counter in early ebays .. In WoL you would see alot of 1 rax expo vs cloak banshee. Sure the cost now favors the guy going for cloak, but i might add that the most used gas timings of the 1 rax fe was able to get out a viking + turrets in time- On July 01 2013 15:21 Honeybadger wrote: hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted. Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines) The reason blizzard dont do nerfs like this is because its poor design to have a damage type which is really complicated. Im already kinda wierded out by the widow mine doing +35 to shields, this is without commenting on balance, but rather the design. | ||
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Gaizokubanou
United States61 Posts
On July 01 2013 16:18 Mongoose wrote: Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much That's because the change regarding warp prism is already live. So what you are seeing now (out running a viking) is after applying the buff in this patch note. They are not trying to make it go any faster than how fast it already goes. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
It will make early drop less effective By the time they research blue flame, the opponent would have enough time to deal with it. But (as I have endlessly said) this would discourage transformation servo upgrade even further. So I hope blizzard either remove this upgrade (just as beta) or make this upgrade viable. Terrans already have enough hardly-ever-useful upgrades. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 01 2013 16:40 Chr15t wrote: I think the problem is that you arent playing sc2 much, since what you say about warp prism pre-buff is outright wrong. Also the banshees would have a pretty direct counter in early ebays .. In WoL you would see alot of 1 rax expo vs cloak banshee. Sure the cost now favors the guy going for cloak, but i might add that the most used gas timings of the 1 rax fe was able to get out a viking + turrets in time- The reason blizzard dont do nerfs like this is because its poor design to have a damage type which is really complicated. Im already kinda wierded out by the widow mine doing +35 to shields, this is without commenting on balance, but rather the design. Most of new hots units are cool but poorly designed (WM, Hellbat, Tempest, oracle perhaps?) They are either recyled units from BW (Hellbat=better&no gas firebat from factory, Tempest=air attacking protoss Guardian) or just simply left with poor design because of constant changes in beta (Oracle- they should have time controlling ability according to their description. WM- it is not mine anymore! probably more close to static defence.) Blizzard gave us some new units and I'm happy (not that every unit is balanced) to play with them. BETTER THAN NOTHING. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
source: playxp 12-13 proleague from round 6, WCS Season 1 Final, WCS Season 2 star league PvT 19 : 29 40 : 60 TvZ 28 : 13 68 : 32 ZvP 25 : 33 43 : 57 ==================================================== over winrate vs other races protoss : 52승 54패 (49.0%) terran : 57승 32패 (64.0%) zerg : 38승 61패 (38.3%) Matchup winrate sum protoss : 97 terran : 128 zerg: 75 ==================================================== proleague protoss : 27승 28패 (49.1%) terran : 21승 17패 (55.2%) zerg : 22승 25패 (46.8%) WCS Season 2 starlegue qualified protoss : 4 players terran: 7 players zerg : 5 players Quote, DK: "there is no imbalance in any level at the moment." God I hate Blizzard. Terran's absurdly high winrate(late WOL zerg had 57% winrate when they were called OP. Now terran has 64% winrate. WTF?!) and their equally absurdly high stat of units. remember warhound(basically unstoppable when combined with helbats), shredder(dps equal to storm and larger range, infinite lifespan), medivac heal boost(which makes a marauder to survive 26 seconds under full storm.).... if one of these made it into the final version of HOTS terran would have hit 95% winrate vs zerg or toss. I would have trashed those ideas the moment they were suggested if I were the developer. I just don't trust Blizzard regarding their understanding of the game, given the list of ridiculous OP units they tried to introduce and their inabilty to grasp the imblance at the moment. ps. sorry for double posting. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 19 2013 23:50 Rabiator wrote: Well the sad part about the Banshee is that - apart from some extremely rare Sky-mech-terran applications - the unit is more or less useless as is every other air unit. Easy to use - through smartcast - Storm and Fungal have made sure of that; sadly they are necessary to be easy to use and chaincastable due to the high amount of units on the battlefield. I would rather like for the Banshee to be as useless as it can be ... because some more people might ask themselves why the unit is useless. Having it "enabled for early harrassment" only like they are trying to do now is a waste of the unit. At least the Reaper is cheap and will get scouting done, but the Banshee can be a total waste of resources if your opponent prepares for it ... at least if players arent changing the tactic and only start harrassing when they have 3+ Banshees (or whatever is enough to overcome early defenses which were built to deal with one of them). With 3+ Banshees you could even start harrassing the enemy army, because detection on the battlefield or outside a base is a little more difficult to come by. Banshee, at least in TvZ, is not a waste of resources, it's not popular right know but it will come back when Hellbat will get nerf (we all know it will come someday) because it gives you map control while allowing you to be greedy. Not as greedy as we see these day with the 3 CC / 2 ebay off 4 marines until 11 minutes, but it's giving you map control and allows you to defend the various roach/ling bane all in and you can scout with it. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On July 05 2013 05:01 highsis wrote: + Show Spoiler + Korean scene balance source: playxp 12-13 proleague from round 6, WCS Season 1 Final, WCS Season 2 star league PvT 19 : 29 40 : 60 TvZ 28 : 13 68 : 32 ZvP 25 : 33 43 : 57 ==================================================== over winrate vs other races protoss : 52승 54패 (49.0%) terran : 57승 32패 (64.0%) zerg : 38승 61패 (38.3%) Matchup winrate sum protoss : 97 terran : 128 zerg: 75 ==================================================== proleague protoss : 27승 28패 (49.1%) terran : 21승 17패 (55.2%) zerg : 22승 25패 (46.8%) WCS Season 2 starlegue qualified protoss : 4 players terran: 7 players zerg : 5 players Quote, DK: "there is no imbalance in any level at the moment." God I hate Blizzard. Terran's absurdly high winrate(late WOL zerg had 57% winrate when they were called OP. Now terran has 64% winrate. WTF?!) and their equally absurdly high stat of units. remember warhound(basically unstoppable when combined with helbats), shredder(dps equal to storm and larger range, infinite lifespan), medivac heal boost(which makes a marauder to survive 26 seconds under full storm.).... if one of these made it into the final version of HOTS terran would have hit 95% winrate vs zerg or toss. I would have trashed those ideas the moment they were suggested if I were the developer. I just don't trust Blizzard regarding their understanding of the game, given the list of ridiculous OP units they tried to introduce and their inabilty to grasp the imblance at the moment. ps. sorry for double posting Let the terran hunt begin! It's all imba right? Like in wol, right? Then blizzard nerfs terran and then we got a total year of pure zerg domination. Let's take a look at this "terran domination": http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues Oh, it looks like terrans aren't dominating at all? So weird! I see more red and green then blue. I'm confused, can you please help me? | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate? its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced) http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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