We’ve just published a new custom version of Derelict Watcher, called "Derelict Watcher TE (2.0.8 Balance v1.1)", in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. This map features slightly reduced numbers for the Warp Prism changes found in the previous version we published on May 30, as well as a few changes we’d like to try out for the Hellbat and Banshee. Today, we’d like to share the new adjustments we’ll be testing, as well as a few thoughts from the StarCraft II Balance Team on each change.
Protoss
Warp Prism Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953 (previously 2.5 to 3.375.) Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625 (previously 2.125 to 3.25.) The Gravitic Drive upgrade has returned to the Robotics Bay and will increase movement speed to 3.375 and acceleration to 3.25 when researched. Thank you for playing on the previous balance test map. We heard your feedback and agree that completely rolling the Gravitic Drive upgrade in to the Warp Prism is probably too big of a change. The pro players we contacted for extra balance testing generally agreed that this change does make Warp Prism harass a lot more effective from an earlier point of time. Therefore, we’d like to try a lesser version of these changes in today’s balance test map. We’re still watching to find out if Protoss is in fact slightly weaker than the other two races at the highest skill levels, and if this turns out to be the case, we’ll likely go with a smaller change such as this one.
Terran
Hellbat Attack damage decreased from 18 +12 vs. light to 18. The Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade increases attack damage from 18 to 18 +12 vs. light. We’re haven’t decided whether or not Hellbat drops are a problem yet. It’s looking like it could be, so we’d like to try a nerf in this balance test map.
Banshee Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100 Cloaking Field research time decreased from 110 seconds to 90. We don’t feel the overall strength of Terran is an issue at this point, and Terrans aren’t overperforming by any means, but we’d like to compensate the Hellbat nerf with another buff. While we’d like to see fewer Hellbat drops, we don’t want Terran to suffer because of it. Also, we think it would be cool for Terran players have a variety of harassment options. Whenever we saw awesome banshee usage in the past, those games were exciting to watch and we believe having a reduced cost for Banshee tech will allow Terran players to utilize them more easily.
Though it will be pinned to the top of the Custom Games list, we’d like to remind you that this rendition of the test map is called "Derelict Watcher TE (2.0.8 Balance v1.1)." Make sure to pay close attention to the map’s title before you hit that “Start Game” button in the game lobby, so you can be certain you’re testing the latest changes found in version 1.1 of the test map.
Once again, these aren’t final changes, and we’re looking for feedback that is based on playtesting. After you’ve thoroughly tested the changes listed above, please join us in this discussion thread.
Cloak buff is insane. 1Gas Banshee openings are possible now? It will be so fucking hard to read what people are doing now in tvt.
Still better then hellbats per minute now and it does not gimp hellbats in straight up fights. Blue flame change does seem fair, it is an effective way to reduce how effective Hellbat drops are.
I dont understand why they insist on changing the WP.
awesome changes! also so awesome to see they care about making zerg more fun to play and test all that nydus/drop/hydra/corruptor/overseer/neural parasite stuff that would make zerg fun to play! like it a lot!
The Banshee buff is insane You can go cloack banshee with only one gas now, and get an earlier command center. There's no way people will not always open banshee in TvT now.
Cloak buff is indeed insane, going to fuck with TvT the most since now in HotS you can see the scan area making banshee micro infinitely easier than in WoL.
Sure, I will take it. I hate banshees with the white hot fire of 1000 suns, but we have so much detection now and the cannon, I don't mind a bit of a buff.
hmm hellbat change sounds like a good idea. 150/150 might've been better for the banshee cloak though since 100/100 is dirt cheap lol. Liked the decrease in build time as well, more viable. As for wrap prism, well, I don't think it's not a bad idea but it sounds too fast XD
If they are going to be changing hellbats, they need to compensate, but I just don't understand the hellbat nerf. In the least they should reduce the cost of preigniter.
PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
Edit: Just checked, you wont be able to two hit workers.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
I cannot fathom why Blizzard feels the need to "compensate" Terran by buffing a totally unrelated tech. You nerf something because it is too strong. You buff something because it is too weak. There is no need to buff cloak (which is fine) in order to compensate for fixing overpowered hellbats.
Blizzard seems to acknowledge that Protoss may be the weakest race, and the best the company can do is a minor warp prism speed buff? The funny thing is that the totally non-sequitur cloak buff is probably more powerful than the minor warp prism speed buff. IMO, the only way to fix Protoss is to (1) give a minor buff to gateway units, (2) give a minor nerf to warpgate cooldown time, and (3) nerf forcefields by making them destructible objects with hitpoints.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
Imagine you are a terran that doesn't want to play marine mine, and you prefer hellbat marine. This is nerfed and done. Meanwhile speedvac + hellbat harass is still possible, and will still do a shitton of damage.
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
So, as a zerg player, I can see myself going double spore per base with an additional 2 queens. And turtling as hard as I can off 3 base till mutas come out. Guess it's time for zergs to start going 7 min lair again as well in this test map for banshees. :O
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
How hellbats in army get nerfed? You get blue flame and they are exacly the same :o
On June 15 2013 03:48 Salient wrote: I cannot fathom why Blizzard feels the need to "compensate" Terran by buffing a totally unrelated tech. You nerf something because it is too strong. You buff something because it is too weak. There is no need to buff cloak (which is fine) in order to compensate for fixing overpowered hellbats.
Blizzard seems to acknowledge that Protoss may be the weakest race, and the best the company can do is a minor warp prism speed buff? IMO, the only way to fix Protoss is to (1) give a minor buff to gateway units, (2) give a minor nerf to warpgate cooldown time, and (3) nerf forcefields by making them destructible objects with hitpoints.
I'm 100% sure blizzard knows what most honnest people know: terrans are doing okay, but not great. By nerfing them, the chances of having a WOL terran are high. So Blizzard wants to avoid this with buffs. Or do we want WOL terran back?
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
Imagine you are a terran that doesn't want to play marine mine, and you prefer hellbat marine. This is nerfed and done. Meanwhile speedvac + hellbat harass is still possible, and will still do a shitton of damage.
I am a Terran that doesn't play marine mine.
The harass is possible, but by the time they've got the upgrade you should be safe as you have a whole upgrade's worth of time.
Edit: and with blue flame hellbats will deal the same damage. This nerf only effects early drops.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
How hellbats in army get nerfed? You get blue flame and they are exacly the same :o
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
Yeah, I like them too. The buff to the WP is good. Banshees needed some love in the modern era of SC2, with more detection all around. The nerf hellbat will likely delay the truly amazing damage until the upgrade is done.
On June 15 2013 03:41 BigFan wrote: hmm hellbat change sounds like a good idea. 150/150 might've been better for the banshee cloak though since 100/100 is dirt cheap lol. Liked the decrease in build time as well, more viable. As for wrap prism, well, I don't think it's not a bad idea but it sounds too fast XD
150/150 would be perfect IMO. I voted "Yes" because I feel like Banshees are all but extinct, but I definitely agree 100/100 is way too cheap.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
How hellbats in army get nerfed? You get blue flame and they are exacly the same :o
I think the cloak Banshee timing contradicts Blizzards philosophy of making changes that helps high level play but doesn't impact lower level play as much. Cloak banshee rushing was something that low level players struggled with a lot in WoL. Maybe with HotS that has changed, but I'm not sure. Either way these changes aren't set in stone.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
How hellbats in army get nerfed? You get blue flame and they are exacly the same :o
150/150 in TvZ is HUGE.
Isnt TvZ the least gas demanding matchup for terran? 150 gas is something i would not cry about.
Hm adding on pre igniter is a little awkward as terrans need to grab the tech lab, upgrade it, and then swap before dropping? though it 3 shots workers now instead of 2 shots. then again, hellions also 3 shot but dont need armory or the upgrade and are quicker. but they have less hp and cant be healed and have worse aoe. hm, should be interesting. Though 1 gas banshee into expo sounds sick good now.
On June 15 2013 03:47 c0ldfusion wrote: Please tell me I'm getting trolled:
Banshee Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100 Cloaking Field research time decreased from 110 seconds to 90.
Whyyyyyyyy?!
(Full disclosure: I've already switched to Terran so this my concern for TvT).
It's easy to think why in all honesty
Cloaked Banshee openings are too much of an investment in the early-game should a Banshee die without evenly paying for itself you're pretty much behind for the rest of the game.
At the same time however I don't think reducing the research time was needed!
Hellbats need a nerf in straight up fights... watching a rauder/tank army lose everytime to a hellbat/tank army means that you can only go hellbat vs hellbat, there is no comprimise and as such creates really shitt MU's where rauder/tank could outplay tank/hellion - hellbat/tank always has the advantage every f ucking time...
So frustrating to play TvT vs bad players who just mass hellbats and 1a2a3a move whistle doing no economic damage to you and being a base behind but your 200/200 army is just weaker and as such you lose everytime unless they make critical mistakes.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
How hellbats in army get nerfed? You get blue flame and they are exacly the same :o
150/150 in TvZ is HUGE.
Isnt TvZ the least gas demanding matchup for terran? 150 gas is something i would not cry about.
Nope. 150 Gas in addition to what was needed(Starport, Armory) is a pretty big hit early game. It solves early Hellbat drops for sure.
On June 15 2013 03:53 da_head wrote: Hm adding on pre igniter is a little awkward as terrans need to grab the tech lab, upgrade it, and then swap before dropping? though it 3 shots workers now instead of 2 shots. then again, hellions also 3 shot but dont need armory or the upgrade and are quicker. but they have less hp and cant be healed and have worse aoe. hm, should be interesting. Though 1 gas banshee into expo sounds sick good now.
I think it's a smart change, it makes it so hellbats can't be dropped 2 at a time and kill a whole bunch of workers, you need to go in at least twice.
On June 15 2013 03:48 Salient wrote: I cannot fathom why Blizzard feels the need to "compensate" Terran by buffing a totally unrelated tech. You nerf something because it is too strong. You buff something because it is too weak. There is no need to buff cloak (which is fine) in order to compensate for fixing overpowered hellbats.
Blizzard seems to acknowledge that Protoss may be the weakest race, and the best the company can do is a minor warp prism speed buff? IMO, the only way to fix Protoss is to (1) give a minor buff to gateway units, (2) give a minor nerf to warpgate cooldown time, and (3) nerf forcefields by making them destructible objects with hitpoints.
I'm 100% sure blizzard knows what most honnest people know: terrans are doing okay, but not great. By nerfing them, the chances of having a WOL terran are high. So Blizzard wants to avoid this with buffs. Or do we want WOL terran back?
Terran was dominant throughout most of Wings of Liberty. It was only in the last year that the game "evolved" into "Lings of Liberty: the rise of the patch zerg." Protoss was always gimmicky, somewhat easier to play, but fragile, inflexible, and less reliable than the other races.
PS: I don't have anything against Terran units getting a buff. But the cloak buff seems kind of out of left field. I would favor something like an upgrade for tanks that let's them bombard an area (even if there are no units there).
nice tests changes, I was personally waiting for a cost reduce on banshee cloak, the time reduction is huge though. Still something that was needed since HotS spores.
Warp prism change sounds better then their first idea. Still think they could lower the price of the RoboBay a bit and infuse it into Colossus range. (Colossus fakes aren't that bad anymore)
Hellbats I don't care they are no issue for me. But this will make sure the hellbat drops hit later and the investment into BlueFlame will allow noobs to blindly prepare against Hellbat drops without getting behind. I won't say Hellbats are dead in TvT now, since people used them despite Blue Flames being better in every way in TvT.
On June 15 2013 03:58 Zenbrez wrote: Banshee openings are going to be tough for protoss again I think
Protoss has gotten additional detection, they will be fine.
You mean the 150/150 Oracle that comes out of an otherwise useless stargate and can be shut down by a single turret? LOL. It's so much better to invest that gas in a robo facility that can give you both detection and splash damage, which you absolutely need to survive against MMM.
On June 15 2013 03:56 Hitch-22 wrote: Hellbats need a nerf in straight up fights... watching a rauder/tank army lose everytime to a hellbat/tank army means that you can only go hellbat vs hellbat, there is no comprimise and as such creates really shitt MU's where rauder/tank could outplay tank/hellion - hellbat/tank always has the advantage every f ucking time...
So frustrating to play TvT vs bad players who just mass hellbats and 1a2a3a move whistle doing no economic damage to you and being a base behind but your 200/200 army is just weaker and as such you lose everytime unless they make critical mistakes.
Do you have any replays of marauder tank losing to an equally sized hellbat tank army in an equal game?
Preferably from high masters players so there's less chance of it just being a terrible player being terrible.
I don't play TvT, but it seems to me there's a huge potential for micro with conc shells kiting back the hellbats and I struggle to believe it's a huge issue
Greatly approve. Made absolutely no sense that Hellbats had full +light damage without Preigniter. Why have an upgrade there and make it useless?
On June 15 2013 03:52 BearStorm wrote: I think the cloak Banshee timing contradicts Blizzards philosophy of making changes that helps high level play but doesn't impact lower level play as much. Cloak banshee rushing was something that low level players struggled with a lot in WoL. Maybe with HotS that has changed, but I'm not sure. Either way these changes aren't set in stone.
Low level players lose to Banshees because they don't scout/don't react properly, not because Banshees hit too early.
On June 15 2013 03:58 Zenbrez wrote: Banshee openings are going to be tough for protoss again I think
Protoss has gotten additional detection, they will be fine.
You mean the 150/150 Oracle that comes out of an otherwise useless stargate and can be shut down by a single turret? LOL. It's so much better to invest that gas in a robo facility that can give you both detection and splash damage.
They can get detection going stargate now, no tech path is limited because of cloak in TvP anymore, assuming you go forge with Twillight which you should.
Yes they will be fine. No tech path is autolose to banshee anymore.
On June 15 2013 03:32 Noocta wrote: The Banshee buff is insane You can go cloack banshee with only one gas now, and get an earlier command center. There's no way people will not always open banshee in TvT now.
Well, NO. You cant get banshee earlier with one gas, even if its an gas first build. Its true, you can get CC earlier, but the banshee is imposible to take with only one gas.Two of them but later is possible, but still dont know when exactly,because I am still trying builds to find the timing..
On June 15 2013 03:56 Hitch-22 wrote: Hellbats need a nerf in straight up fights... watching a rauder/tank army lose everytime to a hellbat/tank army means that you can only go hellbat vs hellbat, there is no comprimise and as such creates really shitt MU's where rauder/tank could outplay tank/hellion - hellbat/tank always has the advantage every f ucking time...
So frustrating to play TvT vs bad players who just mass hellbats and 1a2a3a move whistle doing no economic damage to you and being a base behind but your 200/200 army is just weaker and as such you lose everytime unless they make critical mistakes.
Do you have any replays of marauder tank losing to an equally sized hellbat tank army in an equal game?
Preferably from high masters players so there's less chance of it just being a terrible player being terrible.
I don't play TvT, but it seems to me there's a huge potential for micro with conc shells kiting back the hellbats and I struggle to believe it's a huge issue
On June 15 2013 03:56 Hitch-22 wrote: Hellbats need a nerf in straight up fights... watching a rauder/tank army lose everytime to a hellbat/tank army means that you can only go hellbat vs hellbat, there is no comprimise and as such creates really shitt MU's where rauder/tank could outplay tank/hellion - hellbat/tank always has the advantage every f ucking time...
So frustrating to play TvT vs bad players who just mass hellbats and 1a2a3a move whistle doing no economic damage to you and being a base behind but your 200/200 army is just weaker and as such you lose everytime unless they make critical mistakes.
Do you have any replays of marauder tank losing to an equally sized hellbat tank army in an equal game?
Preferably from high masters players so there's less chance of it just being a terrible player being terrible.
I don't play TvT, but it seems to me there's a huge potential for micro with conc shells kiting back the hellbats and I struggle to believe it's a huge issue
On June 15 2013 03:58 Zenbrez wrote: Banshee openings are going to be tough for protoss again I think
Protoss has gotten additional detection, they will be fine.
You mean the 150/150 Oracle that comes out of an otherwise useless stargate and can be shut down by a single turret? LOL.
If it's shut down by turrets, it's readily available for detection and will help out immensely by helping you to not die!
Only from my own replays (was 1100 masters last season) but the issue is that, rauder vs hellbat, hellbats have 10HP more and burst dmg onto the rauders while they'll naturally have a larger tank count so while you engage a unit that has more HP then the rauder whistle the while stimming and losing hp your opponent gets free positioning on seiging and always wins the battle because you have to pull away from his firing lines.
What made TvT fun in WoL was that a hellion/tank army can be caught out of position; a hellbat/tank army cannot be, if the player handles it properly, caught out of position because the hellbats tank far and away long enough for the stim in with rauders to be negligible as the tanks blast away your army.
It's a stupid, stupid MU and it destroys the beauty that was once mech vs bio in WoL.
Banshees were pretty common in TvT. Now it's gonna be every opener. I can't see how another T can get an economical lead not opening banshee. Maybe open pure marines and save all your CC energy for scans
On June 15 2013 04:05 BakedButters wrote: Banshees were pretty common in TvT. Now it's gonna be every opener. I can't see how another T can get an economical lead not opening banshee. Maybe open pure marines and save all your CC energy for scans
I wonder if this will turn tvt into a coinflip. I think it will.
Holy shit, was not expecting the Banshee buff. Don't quite know how to feel about it yet. Pretty much few people at the top level was using Cloak Banshees anymore. Especially TvZ, where an Evo Chamber isn't even required for a Spore anymore.
As a result, I doubt this is gonna do much for TvZ, now that Zergs are pretty much Cloak-proof. This is probably only going to really effect TvP and TvT.
Cheap banshees, way to go Mr Kim in forcing Protoss into Robo tech yet again for the next 3 years. We could see the return of Dual Port Banshee openings
On June 15 2013 04:11 Topdoller wrote: Cheap banshees, way to go Mr Kim in forcing Protoss into Robo tech yet again for the next 3 years. We could see the return of Dual Port Banshee openings
Protoss have Oracles now, so they aren't forced down Robo tech every time.
On June 15 2013 04:11 Topdoller wrote: Cheap banshees, way to go Mr Kim in forcing Protoss into Robo tech yet again for the next 3 years. We could see the return of Dual Port Banshee openings
I hope this means that Leta can come back and be bonjwa with his 2port shenanigans.
I rather see a buff to Tanks than banshees. Buff one the following: 1. Single Target damage. 2. Bonus damage vs shields. 3. Increased damage from damage upgrades.
oh cool the first ridiculous change to terran that wont get implemented, usually its been the other races (but lol, heres me hoping the ridiculous buff gets through like it happened before)
On June 15 2013 03:32 Noocta wrote: The Banshee buff is insane You can go cloack banshee with only one gas now, and get an earlier command center. There's no way people will not always open banshee in TvT now.
On June 15 2013 04:16 Sated wrote: That Banshee buff...
... time to dust off the 2 Gate Robo expand.
I don't think you need to play that safe for this, yes cloak is faster but getting a banshee itself isn't. Just get a normal anti-cloak robo, and in HotS PvT you really need fast robo for Widow Mine drops anyway.
On June 15 2013 04:16 Sated wrote: That Banshee buff...
... time to dust off the 2 Gate Robo expand.
I don't think you need to play that safe for this, yes cloak is faster but getting a banshee itself isn't. Just get a normal anti-cloak robo, and in HotS PvT you really need fast robo for Widow Mine drops anyway.
Yeah, I see little changing. All three races need pretty early detection to deal with widow mines, so the banshee is just another things to work around.
This hellbat nerf is good but please reduce the cost of blue flame instead of cloak. The important part is to delay the timing of fast hellbat drops, but this change hurts Mech play in general. By having cheap blueflame but keeping the research time the fast drops is nerfed without mech being nerfed in general.
So this means fast robotics always vs TErran cause they will always get away with fast expo and cloaked banshee.I swear David Kim is just out to make terran imbalanced.I'm not really one to cry about stuff but seriosuly, WP buff and to compensate for nering overpowered they make another one overpowered.I mean what the hell.Why not buff protoss and nerf hell bats.I think they need to buff gateway units as I think late game, one freaking EMP, just one, ( not like protoss who need 100 storms that can be face tanked, cause u know, terran is not imba ) and u are done.
Bah, I hate the banshee already. Who in their right mind votes yes to this insane buff? Half price AND time reduction? If you absolutely must buff this already annoying unit, then atleast only pick one. This is a way bigger buff to the banshee than it's a nerf to the Hellbat.
I'd also rather have Hellbats be too strong than the Banshee. With hellbats, if you are not well prepared you are going to fall behind. With banshees either you are prepared or you are not, and if you are not then you are just gonna lose the game straight away. It also force zergs to rush for a third base, cause if that thing is not already done by the time the banshee show up then it's not going up before you have an overseer. Very limiting. The same for Protoss, you're basically forcing them to go Robo or oracles. Atleast you had different options for dealing with Hellbats.
I would definitely prefer what we have now to this craziness. But to be fair, Blizzard have stated that they like to overbuff the units in the test map and the implement a less ridiculous version as we see with the Warp Prism. If that is the case, then I will only find this halfway annoying I guess..
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Yes! Lets replace Hellbats with Banshee rushes Warp Prisms everywhere, all those allins that will be created because of this buff.. T_T
Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Its a nasty design feature that isnt .. how do i put it .. logical i guess.
What terrans really need to something that is strong defensivly, like a tank damage buff - and then cut out all the cutsy harass read:"you may ever have more than 20 workers"
I think the cloak is a bit too cheap, but I don't disagree with the idea. Most non-mirror matchups rely on scouting it regardless to stop it, so it shouldn't hurt too much to make it a bit less of a commitment
On June 15 2013 04:11 Topdoller wrote: Cheap banshees, way to go Mr Kim in forcing Protoss into Robo tech yet again for the next 3 years. We could see the return of Dual Port Banshee openings
Yes because if only their other tech path, stargate, was good against banshees. But sadly toss air gets thrashed by the ridiculous banshee air to air attack...
I am really glad that blizzard realised terran as a race isn't overpowered, so a boost can compensate for hellbat nerf. I am also glad they choose banshees, considering they are pretty much useless right now. However I don't know if cheaper cloak is the way to go, an overall boost/upgrade for banshees would imo be nicer. There was once a custom map where banshees had ability to throw enemy air units on the ground and shoot them, that would be fun (not terribly useful, but still fun).
But lets see what the results are: Pure banshee rushes won't come earlier, their timing isn't determined by mineral/gas cost. (And for some reason I still use them regulary vs toss, on most maps if you start cloak and banshee at same time, cloak is finished when you arrive at the enemies base, so that won't be a huge change either*).
Quick banshees are slightly less disruptive to your overall progression. It isn't an enormous difference, but noticable.
All-out banshee attacks are slightly stronger. But do you really want to do that? I would file that as suicidal.
*But what if you proxy a starport? Proxy stargate banshees is also on my list of pretty suicidal.
So alltogether I don't think it is a bad change, but still I rather had an overall boost to banshees.
On June 15 2013 04:24 crbox wrote: This is the comeback of hellion banshee in TvZ =]
Yea i just tested this out, with 1 rax cc into 2 gas you can now go cloak banshee ALONGSIDE single armory upgrades from the 7th minut or so - feels good, im very worried about the future of tvt tho
Very nice! Banshee/hellion is hopefully going to return to TvZ now, making Terran builds less volatile and Zerg play more macro-oriented.
Don't see an issue with any of those patches. It's questionable to which degree any of those things are needed, but basically every buff blizzard has done in the HotS beta has increased the fun of the game and I think everybody rather deals with cloaked banshees than with hellbat massacres.
On June 15 2013 04:36 Ctesias wrote: I don't like any of these changes. Hellbats are a lot more fun to both play with, play against and watch than banshees.
And Protoss do not need a buff.
Hellbats still work, the nerf they received was not being able to two hit workers until they get an upgrade, banshees got a buff because they were inferior in every way to hellbat drops.
On June 15 2013 03:53 da_head wrote: Hm adding on pre igniter is a little awkward as terrans need to grab the tech lab, upgrade it, and then swap before dropping? though it 3 shots workers now instead of 2 shots. then again, hellions also 3 shot but dont need armory or the upgrade and are quicker. but they have less hp and cant be healed and have worse aoe. hm, should be interesting. Though 1 gas banshee into expo sounds sick good now.
the igniter is there to make it become like before again but is late enough so you can't abuse the drops anyway...that's the thing they want to nerf the early game hellbat drop as it is way too efficient even if you defend perfectly.
PLEASE banshees have been useless for far too long, let them be buffed. Maybe the cloak buff is not that good because it leads to more all ins, but terrans need a good air unit who can hit ground. Battlecruisers are mostly useless.
I loathe Banshees. But, I have been thinking recently that I hardly see them anymore. And much as I loathed them as a Protoss, they were a cool unit in WOL. I do think, though, that 100/100 is too cheap for what cloak gives the Banshee. (The reduction in research time and half price may also be a bit much.) That said, DK has said before that changes on the balance map are usually extreme versions of what may eventually go through. A future cost of 150/150 will probably be alright with me.
Weaker HB are fine with me. Time for Terrans, in TvT, to explore other openings. And weaker HB drops for everyone else. Yay!
I like the WP change. A speed prism with the extra HP (from the older patch) did not make much sense too early in the game.
Still, if Protoss is indeed weaker at the highest levels, as suggested by DK, I'm still waiting on that slight Stalker buff!
I doubt this will do much good. Especially the banshee change as it will affect only TvT and may be as bad as hellbats. This is not the right way to compensate terrans for hellbat nerf.
This change breaks PvT. The standard Protoss 1 gate expand (gate core nexus gate gate robo) pops its first observer at 7:15. A gas-first Terran build can pop a banshee at 6:25 and finish cloak by 6:55. You can't even 1-gate expo anymore without dying or leaving yourself very vulnerable by making the robo before your second and third gates. Even if you do this, you have to produce three obs and the first two can't scout or Terran can just wreck your econ by bouncing between mineral patches as the banshee is faster than the observer. The fact that it's now mandatory to spend 150 gas to defend against the potential of 100 gas cloak is ridiculous.
I dunno how you're supposed to defend against the banshee at all on maps with a large distance between the main and natural mineral lines like Akilon wastes. The banshee can just head for the base where your observer isn't and kill a lot of probes.
You can't quite get 6:55 cloak on 1 gas, but you can take the second gas very late and then take the SCVs out afterwards. Before you had to take the second gas much earlier, losing more mineral income. That combined with the 200 mineral cost of the research meant your expansion was delayed a lot. Now you can mine more minerals and the research only costs 100 minerals so you can start an expansion way earlier. This build also conveniently gets cloak early enough to squash any void ray or immortal allins.
The thing is, when terran gets hellbats to mix in with their bio army (as in tvp), they only get reactor fact, not techlab. This change in hellbat will probably have to have terrans build another factory (which a huge nerf because it will mess up the composition and requiring an extra factory). (To all those saying you can swap the factory, look the widow mine upgrade in tvz. All the pros get an extra factory for the tech lab. Same will be the case with hellbats)
I would love to see more banshees. It's a micro heavy unit really fun to see. The other changes look good too. Hellbat will make a little more sense with that.
On June 15 2013 04:53 Xequecal wrote: This change breaks PvT. The standard Protoss 1 gate expand (gate core nexus gate gate robo) pops its first observer at 7:15. A gas-first Terran build can pop a banshee at 6:25 and finish cloak by 6:55. You can't even 1-gate expo anymore without dying or leaving yourself very vulnerable by making the robo before your second and third gates. Even if you do this, you have to produce three obs and the first two can't scout or Terran can just wreck your econ by bouncing between mineral patches as the banshee is faster than the observer. The fact that it's now mandatory to spend 150 gas to defend against the potential of 100 gas cloak is ridiculous.
I dunno how you're supposed to defend against the banshee at all on maps with a large distance between the main and natural mineral lines like Akilon wastes. The banshee can just head for the base where your observer isn't and kill a lot of probes.
You can't quite get 6:55 cloak on 1 gas, but you can take the second gas very late and then take the SCVs out afterwards. Before you had to take the second gas much earlier, losing more mineral income. That combined with the 200 mineral cost of the research meant your expansion was delayed a lot. Now you can mine more minerals and the research only costs 100 minerals so you can start an expansion way earlier. This build also conveniently gets cloak early enough to squash any void ray or immortal allins.
If you see a gas first from Terran, why would you get 2 extra gate b4 robo in this case then. A single extra gate and a robo will surely block the banshee
tbh....better dealing with banshee than hellbats -_- i hate the feeling i need to go hellbat in tvt, i think its good to implement the ignite upgrade into hellbat usage, sadly hellbats still can be healed (its retarded) plus medivac speed doesnt cost shit (which is stupid)
would like to see a small buff for infestor (infested terrans) and some nerf to swarmhost, dont know bout toss, 90% on the ladder are cheesy ********** -_-
On June 15 2013 04:56 ooDi wrote: If you see a gas first from Terran, why would you get 2 extra gate b4 robo in this case then. A single extra gate and a robo will surely block the banshee
Remind me how you reliably scout the fact that Terran took gas first? You're aware they block their ramp, right?
On June 15 2013 04:56 ooDi wrote: If you see a gas first from Terran, why would you get 2 extra gate b4 robo in this case then. A single extra gate and a robo will surely block the banshee
Remind me how you reliably scout the fact that Terran took gas first? You're aware they block their ramp, right?
You can get a really good idea if it was gas first based on how quickly it is walled off. If the 2nd supply depot is finished or still building.
You are aware that on most maps it is pretty much impossible to block your ramp in time, not to mention when the terran takes fast gas + fast second depot for wall + a fast second gas, I am fairly sure you can handle taking a bit of damage from a banshee. And you still got your hallucinated phoenix scout, and you also have planetary nexus. Yeah you might lose some probes, but you should also be miles ahead with the economic damage the terran took with his BO.
I don't agree with the Banshee buff. The only reason they are not being used right now is that hellbats and widow mine drops are just so much better. If they want to buff Terran to compensate, which I could agree with, it should be done at the late game, i.e. by buffing siege tank damage.
On June 15 2013 04:56 ooDi wrote: If you see a gas first from Terran, why would you get 2 extra gate b4 robo in this case then. A single extra gate and a robo will surely block the banshee
Remind me how you reliably scout the fact that Terran took gas first? You're aware they block their ramp, right?
When has this been a problem in the last two years? If you don't get in, there are like 20 other ways to scout, including expansion timings.
On June 15 2013 04:39 Sn0_Man wrote: Very close to Yes, Yes, Yes.
I put no for the banshee changes not because I don't think they are warranted, but because I think its a bit too big.
EITHER 100/100 OR 150/150 with the time reduction. I don't like 100/100 AND the shorter time.
I guess that is what these maps are for though.
Bingo.
They want to try out an extreme version of the change for purposes of testing and then tone it back later if they don't like what they see perfect example being what they just did with Warp Prisms.
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
On June 15 2013 05:05 ACrow wrote: I don't agree with the Banshee buff. The only reason they are not being used right now is that hellbats and widow mine drops are just so much better. If they want to buff Terran to compensate, which I could agree with, it should be done at the late game, i.e. by buffing siege tank damage.
Exactly. Banshees aren't weak. They are good. It's just that the other Terran harass options are even more powerful (i.e. can kill a dozen workers in a second).
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
There really isn't much fear of Banshees at all with HoTS protoss. Even if they were buffed extensively you'd hardly see them in TvP without a speed increase.
Oracle openings hard counter banshee harassment since the Oracle functions as a detector as well as allowing a quick phoenix to be made.
The Mothership Core heavily discourages banshee usage as well considering that the range on Photon Overcharge is so huge that any banshee not already out of the Protoss base by the time it is activated will take heavy damage.
On June 15 2013 05:05 ACrow wrote: I don't agree with the Banshee buff. The only reason they are not being used right now is that hellbats and widow mine drops are just so much better. If they want to buff Terran to compensate, which I could agree with, it should be done at the late game, i.e. by buffing siege tank damage.
Exactly. Banshees aren't weak. They are good. It's just that the other Terran harass options are even more powerful (i.e. can kill a dozen workers in a second).
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the addition of Spawning Pool spore Crawlers, Oracles and the Mothership Core.
Wake up.
Banshee harassment vs Protoss and Zerg got heavily nerfed in HoTS it was just done so indirectly rather than directly. We said so in beta and they ignored us.
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
There really isn't much fear of Banshees at all with HoTS protoss. Even if they were buffed extensively you'd hardly see them in TvP without a speed increase.
Oracle openings hard counter banshee harassment since the Oracle functions as a detector as well as allowing a quick phoenix to be made.
The Mothership Core heavily discourages banshee usage as well considering that the range on Photon Overcharge is so huge that any banshee not already out of the Protoss base by the time it is activated will take heavy damage.
I didn't see banshees in the last 1.5 years of WoL either. And I don't think oracles are any harder to stop that cloaked banshees, have played against both.
On June 15 2013 04:56 ooDi wrote: If you see a gas first from Terran, why would you get 2 extra gate b4 robo in this case then. A single extra gate and a robo will surely block the banshee
Remind me how you reliably scout the fact that Terran took gas first? You're aware they block their ramp, right?
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
I'm so gonna hit the ladder with 1-1-1 cloaked banshee into mech TvP if this goes through. I loved that style on wings, hope it becomes semiviable again.
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
There really isn't much fear of Banshees at all with HoTS protoss. Even if they were buffed extensively you'd hardly see them in TvP without a speed increase.
Oracle openings hard counter banshee harassment since the Oracle functions as a detector as well as allowing a quick phoenix to be made.
The Mothership Core heavily discourages banshee usage as well considering that the range on Photon Overcharge is so huge that any banshee not already out of the Protoss base by the time it is activated will take heavy damage.
I didn't see banshees in the last 1.5 years of WoL either. And I don't think oracles are any harder to stop that cloaked banshees, have played against both.
Oracle harassment might not exactly be stronger, but with their speed you at least have the opportunity to escape from defenders.
With Banshee harassment that's a lot more difficult. Their speed is low for an air based harassment unit and that makes any investment in them very difficult to keep without causing substantial damage, that's balanced around the fact that cloaking is an option but with a 200/200 investment required to use it you can see why Terrans would avoid using Banshees.
Reducing the cost on cloaking is a good move. It doesn't make the unit any better which already CAN be strong if used against an unsuspecting opponent, but it makes the investment required for Banshees much more manageable so that we can see it used as part of a wider variety of builds.
The Dark Shrine buff in hindsight has been met with almost a universal amount of praise, this cloaking change is being offered with the same reasoning behind it.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
someone at Blizzard has the biggest hard-on for Terran ever...
So because they fix a broken unit...they make another already-strong unit potentially even more ridiculous?
Love the Warp Prism change, it makes perfect sense all around Love the Hellbat change, they were too strong too early, this makes them more of a mid-game option Hate the Banshee change, its completely out-of-the-blue, stupid, and unnecessary
Anyone else see the 1-1-1 becoming popular again with the banshee change? God that was my least favourite build to go up against...
except now you'll have cheap cloaked Banshees AND Hellbats to deal with, all at the same time!
I'm a terran player. Imo all you need to do is get rid of the medivac heal on hellbats and that solves alot. Never made sense why hellbats were bio units anyway in the first place. Can save all these buff and nerf changes esp the banshee one is insane (though i won't complain lol).
Why don't they buff the banshee itself instead of buffing cloak? When was the last time you saw a banshee without cloak? It would be much better in terms of transitioning if banshees had some sort of use later on, so you could just build one without gambling that hard. Instead, they want to buff another cheese. Yay.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
The problem with that is that the two units are hardly ever used together and linking their upgrades on say the Ghost Academy is actually a nerf to Banshee play while putting their upgrade on say the Starport's tech Lab is a nerf to say someone who wanted to go for a WoL ghost rush vs Protoss.
Not to mention from a lore point of view it doesn't make any sense. The technology required to make a Ghost cloak is radically different from what makes Banshees cloak.
The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs. That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems. If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs. They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.
As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?
I think MarineKing will like this change as I like it. Less power to microless units like Hellbats, more to microable units like Banshees, sounds cool to me :D
On June 15 2013 05:32 jekku wrote: I'm a terran player. Imo all you need to do is get rid of the medivac heal on hellbats and that solves alot. Never made sense why hellbats were bio units anyway in the first place. Can save all these buff and nerf changes esp the banshee one is insane (though i won't complain lol).
The hellbat is bio so archons hardcounter them. People have a real hard time getting that, protoss would be screwed if it wasn't for the fact hellbats are bio.
Hopefully WP buff isn't moar of an all-in buff or sth Hellbat nerf is welcome though Now if only blizzard can find a way to actually do something about that ZvP swarmhost + static def
On June 15 2013 03:58 Zenbrez wrote: Banshee openings are going to be tough for protoss again I think
Protoss has gotten additional detection, they will be fine.
You mean the 150/150 Oracle that comes out of an otherwise useless stargate and can be shut down by a single turret? LOL. It's so much better to invest that gas in a robo facility that can give you both detection and splash damage, which you absolutely need to survive against MMM.
I recently tried going 3 hidden oracles into one full on attack, to see if I could kill the likely turret that would be there at the T's base. It was there. I was attacking it for what seemed like forever before the guy noticed... the turret was in the red before he started repairing. Instantly it shot up from a few red hitpoints to half health and one oracle died before I could pull out. Oracles are junk. Any real pro is not going to go Oracles except when they are in the mood for a coinflip because they don't like a map. Way too luck based right now.
600/600 worth of air investment is shut down by 100 minerals at the Terran's base. Brother, Terran just has air defense covered in such a big way it's pretty much broken from the point of view of P.
To chime in on the Banshee, I played another game where I was T vs a Z, and had the guy crippled early via a few hellbat drops. He was at half my workers, so I just casually built up to a max bio + mine + hellbat army with 3/3 bio. I knew he'd be back in the game, but I was always 1 or two bases ahead, so I figured he'd never have a chance. A few bad engagements later, it turned into a base race once his Ultras were out. Finally it came down to my last base -he didn't know about- against his ground army plus a few mutas. I pumped out 3 banshees and a handfull of marines along with left over medivacs and won the game.
It proved to me Banshees still have a place in TvZ, I don't know what the fuss is about. Point being, Banshees are great air to ground damage. Marines are once against the most versatile unit in the game. What an awesome combo?!
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote: The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs. That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems. If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs. They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.
As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?
Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore
lolol tvt is going back to 2010. banshees still wont be problem for toss, it never were. all tosses in hots (that arent hipster nerds) go robo or stargate right after nexus, which gives them detection in time. in wol they used to +2 gate first thats why cloak was slightly relevant there.
i guess hellbat and warp prism changes are nice maybe. not terrible ideas from blizzard which is nice
im still waiting for my turret buff tho (less dmg less cost)
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.
Agreed. The added bonus that Helbats do vs Light baseline doesn't affect Helbat Bio/Timings. It does however make small numbers of Helbats (like 2) far less effective vs packs of workers.
It's a good change with a bonus of perhaps giving Terrans a reason to research Blue Flame again which Helbat drops have made an obsolete tech route. (they did the same thing to banshees too)
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote: The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs. That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems. If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs. They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.
As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?
Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore
Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.
well, it will affect it a little, as not each zergling just gets exclusively 2shot by hellbats, but like 1shot from a hellbat+1shot from a marine right now a lot of the time. Also against hydras and locusts in Mech vs Zerg. But it basically just means: IF YOU WANT TO EXTENSIVELY USE HELLBATS (INSTEAD OF WIDOW MINES), GET THAT FUCKING 150/150 UPGRADE (LIKE YOU GET THAT 150/150 UPGRADE FOR WIDOW MINES). It's really not that gamebreaking to go for one of the factory techlab upgrades if you use those units a lot. So in macrogames, your army should be basically same strength, but early hellbat drops and allins will be nerfed. (TLO will rejoice)
I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
Fusion Core
lol.
So going for a cloaked banshee timing would require building an additional structure that costs 150 gas just to research an upgrade that costs 200 gas all for the benefit that now Ghosts that you may or may not have wanted to build have cloaking at baseline?
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote: The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs. That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems. If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs. They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.
As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?
Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore
Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.
Cloaked Banshees can still be effective even with Spore Crawlers around, but with such a huge cost of investment its very hard to justify going for them as opposed to other builds in the current meta. (Did a GM cast not that far back where the Terran always opened for them and it worked very well)
With a reduced cost more Terrans might be willing to take that risk and with 100 extra gas to work with it makes the build far easier to transition out of.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote: The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs. That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems. If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs. They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.
As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?
Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore
Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.
Cloaked Banshees can still be effective even with Spore Crawlers around, but with such a huge cost of investment its very hard to justify going for them as opposed to other builds in the current meta. (Did a GM cast not that far back where the Terran always opened for them and it worked very well)
With a reduced cost more Terrans might be willing to take that risk and with 100 extra gas to work with it makes the build far easier to transition out of.
theognis says his standard TvZ opening right now is hellion/banshee, because it is just better than the innovation style against roach/baneling. And I saw him doing it today against nerchio and the opening did good damage and he won the game. So, I think banshees aren't superbad in TvZ right now, and that cloak buff might just be enough to make them a little more relevant again.
Wish people would stop saying that banshees are strong; they're viable, but not strong right now. If they were strong then they would show up in more than 1 out of 100 pro games.
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
Exactly what i feel, and i'm zerg. Banshee can kill or ruin you, if you didn't see it or didn't prepare for it, but you can defend, and it's your fault if you loose. You can see hellbat and prepare for it, you still in a bad situation :D
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
Fusion Core
lol.
So going for a cloaked banshee timing would require building an additional structure that costs 150 gas just to research an upgrade that costs 200 gas all for the benefit that now Ghosts that you may or may not have wanted to build have cloaking at baseline?
I like Blizzard's idea more.
I can't tell if you understood I was joking or not... I think you didn't and for that "pulls off glove" you get a Vincent Longborn slap.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?
Fusion Core
lol.
So going for a cloaked banshee timing would require building an additional structure that costs 150 gas just to research an upgrade that costs 200 gas all for the benefit that now Ghosts that you may or may not have wanted to build have cloaking at baseline?
I like Blizzard's idea more.
I can't tell if you understood I was joking or not... I think you didn't and for that "pulls off glove" you get a Vincent Longborn slap.
/rolld20 19
GGnore
I was honestly hoping you were but it's hard to convey sarcasm on the internet.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air you know.....
Phoenixes can, and they come from the same structure.
It's the same dynamic as getting a Raven and Viking in TvT only less expensive and much faster.
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.
Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.
Exactly what i feel, and i'm zerg. Banshee can kill or ruin you, if you didn't see it or didn't prepare for it, but you can defend, and it's your fault if you loose. You can see hellbat and prepare for it, you still in a bad situation :D
Plus the Banshee and sporecrawler/cannon had the perfect range/sight ratio. Even if they had a single spore/cannon in the center of the mineral line, a banshee could still dance around it and do damage. The same for stalkers and queens, who where just fast enough to catch the banshee, but one could still get away if it moved early enough.
Unlike hellbat drops, which are just in your mineral line, burning your workers, like big jerks.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
I don't understand why you're all so mad about the Banshee buff. Ya it's a huge change, but it's a step in the right direction. Before 200/200 for cloak was way too much and practically all in like.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
LOL my bad ;D What a noob I am haha.
protip; don't say protip, especially when you're wrong. You go from just looking like a douche to being the douche that was wrong, an even worse scenario.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Also Protoss requires much more gas intensive early game army(Stalker 50, MScore 100, Sentry:100) vs (Marauder:25).. So like always, gas is alot more precious for Toss. So I should spend 100 more gas than you early game, to counter a unit that doesn't really cost you anything? (Starport makes medivacs which helps with early pushes, while Stargate doesn't have strong singular units - VR and Phoenix and Oracles are all flimsy in low numbers-)
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
LOL my bad ;D What a noob I am haha.
protip; don't say protip, especially when you're wrong. You go from just looking like a douche to being the douche that was wrong, an even worse scenario.
: D <3
I don't really care, but I was usually pretty right when it comes to unit stats and interaction. I guess that just goes to show that I'm not following as well anymore :'( I don't mind looking like a douche or being wrong ;D
And to the guy above, that's not really how it works, it's not like you invest in an oracle solely to detect the banshee, you can harass with it too you know. Plus, you won't make only 1 oracle and 1 phoenix and Terran won't build only 1 banshee, so that kind of cost evaluation really misses the mark.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
LOL my bad ;D What a noob I am haha.
You're genius. *builds two oracles and then watch helplessly your entire mineral line be destroyed by one very happy Banshee pilot.
I like the WP changes, the previous change was a bit overkill. Even on my silver/gold level I managed to beat a plat/diamond players with using the speed prisms (and really not hard to pull off stuff) But this is good.
The Hellbat changes make sense, and it gives the blue flame upgrade more meaning. I do hope though that they gave the Hellbat fire the same blue colour when upgraded so you as opponent can tell if they have the upgrade or not.
Banshee buff, perhaps a bit overkill, but it's a good direction. Especially in TvT. In PvT I'm not so looking forward, at my level at least to deal with Banshee openings that early. I'll probably ragequit a lot, curse at the opponent and then follow up with a apology afterward after I cooled down.. buuuut, if it fixes the pro scene TvT I don't mind it.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Also Protoss requires much more gas intensive early game army(Stalker 50, MScore 100, Sentry:100) vs (Marauder:25).. So like always, gas is alot more precious for Toss. So I should spend 100 more gas than you early game, to counter a unit that doesn't really cost you anything? (Starport makes medivacs which helps with early pushes, while Stargate doesn't have strong singular units - VR and Phoenix and Oracles are all flimsy in low numbers-)
u forgot addon , also u dont need a phoenix, oracle + nexus charge or a cannon is enough , be happy that hellbat drop got nerfed cauz hellbat drop>banshee now
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Also Protoss requires much more gas intensive early game army(Stalker 50, MScore 100, Sentry:100) vs (Marauder:25).. So like always, gas is alot more precious for Toss. So I should spend 100 more gas than you early game, to counter a unit that doesn't really cost you anything? (Starport makes medivacs which helps with early pushes, while Stargate doesn't have strong singular units - VR and Phoenix and Oracles are all flimsy in low numbers-)
Uh, and you get super uber additional unit just for additional 50/100 LOL that must be too good to be true.
Warp Prism might be too much, but it seems like there's a bias against anything Protoss being decent, just like people are absolutely convinced Void Rays are broken despite the numbers saying otherwise. The two Terran changes seem fine and we'll see how 1gas openers pan out. Luckily the response to Hellbat drops and Banshees are similar enough and it will rely on scouting the Starport addon if you need detection. Oracle dynamic should take a page from Banshee/Static Defense dynamic. Match the range, lower the DPS, play with the activation cost, attack cooldown, and acceleration.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Also Protoss requires much more gas intensive early game army(Stalker 50, MScore 100, Sentry:100) vs (Marauder:25).. So like always, gas is alot more precious for Toss. So I should spend 100 more gas than you early game, to counter a unit that doesn't really cost you anything? (Starport makes medivacs which helps with early pushes, while Stargate doesn't have strong singular units - VR and Phoenix and Oracles are all flimsy in low numbers-)
Also you dont NEED phoenix, they are good but 2 stalkers (plus detection) can deal with 1 Banshee, and Protoss now have the Planetary Nexus. Zerg have early spores too. Its easier to deal with Banshees now in Hots, but in the end 100/100 for the reasearch might be too cheap, 150/150, 90 seconds seems fair to me.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Also Protoss requires much more gas intensive early game army(Stalker 50, MScore 100, Sentry:100) vs (Marauder:25).. So like always, gas is alot more precious for Toss. So I should spend 100 more gas than you early game, to counter a unit that doesn't really cost you anything? (Starport makes medivacs which helps with early pushes, while Stargate doesn't have strong singular units - VR and Phoenix and Oracles are all flimsy in low numbers-)
Uh, and you get super uber additional unit just for additional 50/100 LOL that must be too good to be true.
I hope you don't mean Oracle, because they are seriously a borderline trash unit.
Considering we practically never see banshees anymore outside of TvT, I'm not sure why there are people complaining about a banshee buff...
The warp prism is going to cause great annoyance in my ongoing campaign against cheesing protoss players on ladder.
Concerning the Hellbat nerf, I don't know what to think about. However, I am wondering what the go to TvT build will be following the banshee and hellbat changes.
On June 15 2013 06:23 Absentia wrote: Considering we practically never see banshees anymore outside of TvT, I'm not sure why there are people complaining about a banshee buff...
The warp prism is going to cause great annoyance in my ongoing campaign against cheesing protoss players on ladder.
Concerning the Hellbat nerf, I don't know what to think about. However, I am wondering what the go to TvT build will be following the banshee and hellbat changes.
we dont see banshees cuz hellbat are too strong. now banshee wil be imba
On June 15 2013 06:05 Nightsz wrote: 1/1/1 wont do shit because of nexus pew pew cannon owns anything at siege tank range
Indeed, I wonder how people are thinking to 1-1-1 toss. Ask him for an honourable battle in the middle of the map? Otherwise he just sits happily at his natural and the moment you attack planetary nexus solves it.
Lately since at least at my level phoenix openings are extremely rare again, (unlike a bit ago), I went for the WoL banshee into mech strategy again. With these changes it might get to the same strenght it had in WoL, which also wasn't exactly OP. Why? Simply because toss has so many more early game all-ins, that you outright die to if you would follow the WoL BO. So currently for example I use my factory for widow mines, instead of tech lab switch, slowing everything down.
Then for example wall offs are really problematic vs toss who likes to snipe supply depots, but without them you are more vulnerable to DTs, which are less of an investment for toss. When you arrive at the toss base a banshee will be heavily damaged by planetary nexus before it leaves its range.
So unless you really go coinflip style: lets hope the toss doesn't all-in me, or even poke me at the front (really toss should do that way more often) and do it WoL style, it won't come faster than in WoL with these changes. And lets face it, the chance a toss doesn't all-in you is pretty low.
On June 15 2013 06:05 Nightsz wrote: 1/1/1 wont do shit because of nexus pew pew cannon owns anything at siege tank range
Indeed, I wonder how people are thinking to 1-1-1 toss. Ask him for an honourable battle in the middle of the map? Otherwise he just sits happily at his natural and the moment you attack planetary nexus solves it.
If you want honorable battle - play TvT. Toss players are not guilty that Blizzard made it 200 Amove race.
Yeah this actually looks grim in TvT. We'll probably only see cloaked banshees or blind ravens for a while, this shit just comes too early not to use now.
On June 15 2013 06:23 Absentia wrote: Considering we practically never see banshees anymore outside of TvT, I'm not sure why there are people complaining about a banshee buff...
The warp prism is going to cause great annoyance in my ongoing campaign against cheesing protoss players on ladder.
Concerning the Hellbat nerf, I don't know what to think about. However, I am wondering what the go to TvT build will be following the banshee and hellbat changes.
we dont see banshees cuz hellbat are too strong. now banshee wil be imba
Imba? Where were these banshees near the end of WOL? It is even easier to defend vs them in HOTS.
fuck my life why can't blizzard just leave TvT fucking alone. it was perfectly fine in WoL, the better player always won. this cloak change isn't going to do shit vs the other races because of how quickly detection comes because of the widow mine.
On June 15 2013 06:33 ZenithM wrote: Yeah this actually looks grim in TvT. We'll probably only see cloaked banshees or blind ravens for a while, this shit just comes too early not to use now.
20s is really fast. This overbuffing Terran syndrome can bite other T's in the ass too.
On June 15 2013 06:33 ZenithM wrote: Yeah this actually looks grim in TvT. We'll probably only see cloaked banshees or blind ravens for a while, this shit just comes too early not to use now.
20s is really fast. This overbuffing Terran syndrome can bite other T's in the ass too.
You in particular should be happy though
I haven't done the math nor can I test it on this PC right now, but can you reasonably go cloak with one gas now? I don't think you can but I'd like to check anyway.
Good patch, IF Banshee turns out to be too good then I feel like Terran vs Terran will suffer the most or just as bad as the other MU now that Detect actually is viable for all the races early game.
I'm just really afraid that they will let this go through. Then some time later, nerf Banshee again and we would have gotten nerfed without anything in return.
Side effect to this banshee buff is the now dominant speed roach/baneling 1/1 timing vs terran will be less strong - banshees are amazing vs roach bling all ins.
Overall I think these three upgrades are a step in the right direction. To everyone saying 'hellbats wont change because terran can easily spare 150 gas' - it's all about the need to have a tech lab on your factory, which means they'll be lacking reactored hellbats for quite a while.
I voted yes for the hellbat nerf, its a good elegant solution to the problem, it will delay the drops by long enough that you can get defenses and it doesn't nerf their mid game power.
I dislike the warp prism change, it I feel like protoss is indeed lacking in some area to truly make them competitive, but I don't think buffing their all-in potential is the way to go.
And I really like the banshee change, and I'm a terran. Banshees are much more micro-able then hellbats, it takes more seconds and a lot more micro and actions to kill the same number of workers that hellbats will kill, and they can be defended against a lot easier. I honestly think the backlash against the banshee change is unwarranted, the only thing it will force in TvT is just a mandatory engi bay at a time to have turrets in the mineral lines. You can better scout a banshee rush now with reapers, so that isn't going to be a problem, you could even deduce it if you see no expo by the 5:00 min time.
The banshee also has a finite time of how fast it can be rushed to. You first need to build a factory which takes 50 seconds to build, a SP which takes another 50 seconds, and build the banshee which takes 60 seconds, then you have 30 seconds until cloak finishes for the banshee. If you go 1 rax expo into double gas you'll start your 2 gasses at 3:45, meaning you'll have the gas for a factory at exactly 4:50, which results in the banshee first hitting with cloak at 8:00.
If you haven't managed to scout your opponent in the over 3 minutes of time it takes to build the factory, the SP and build the banshee+ research the cloak, then you deserve to lose.
Now with the 1 base variation, if you put down the gas at 12 you'll have enough to build your first fac at 3:00 or so, meaning the cloak banshee could hit as early as 6:10, I still think that's ample time to scout it and prepare, the worst thing it will force is a 5:00 engi bay.
Edit, there is also the hyper risky, 11 gas variation of banshee rush, that one can hit even earlier, however to accomplish this you have to take all the risks in the book, including skipping on units, making it not only easy to scout by reapers but a auto-lose in some cases if it gets scouted, because 1 lone reaper will be able to kill your entire mineral line, and he'll bring friends as well.
The prism change will do nothing metagame wise, every P at a decent level knows it. A little more manouvrability but don't need to be scouted, don't need some answer or correct positioning like boostvacs.. just a little more easy to save and nothing more.
i agree with the warp prism changes, but not entirely sure about the Upgrade available. It seems that the upgrade would make prisms much too fast to use as a harassment unit. While i was watching META, i do not think that the hellbat damage changes would be sufficient. they will still be hard to kill, will still be efficient at killing workers and using hellbats to defend your mineral line would be even less effective. Hellbats would still be a staple in all matchups with those changes. The banshee change does not need to happen at all, this looks like too big of a change for the banshee as that strat would become too dominant and powerful in the early game. just imagine that cloak banshee proxied....it would be ridiculous
On June 15 2013 03:28 Hypemeup wrote: Cloak buff is insane. 1Gas Banshee openings are possible now? It will be so fucking hard to read what people are doing now in tvt.
Still better then hellbats per minute now and it does not gimp hellbats in straight up fights. Blue flame change does seem fair, it is an effective way to reduce how effective Hellbat drops are.
I dont understand why they insist on changing the WP.
Arent all these changes absolutely clear?
Blizzard has said they want MORE AGGRESSION and the only way they feel that is possible is harrassment. They dont care if their changes make the game volatile and it seems we must now endure a period of Banshee harrassment being dominant again - Maru Prime vs. Keen on Red City in todays GSTL was an excellent "preview" of what is to come in TvT at least -... and the obligatory early Warp Prism harrass.
Kinda nice of them to save Protoss from needing forward pylons when they are pushing out with a Warp Prism ... that will save them a few hundred minerals later on to replace those pylons after they get killed and since they arent killed you dont run the risk of being supply blocked.
The banshee change is great, the hellbat nerf will stop hellbat drops entirely as worker harassment (you are better off with hellions until you get blue flame... and then you are better off using hellions too, i am speaking of tvt) and i don't know how to feel about the protoss changes, the race is just not good outside alliny builds imho, and the reason is not having harassment tools, because they do, but their deathball dependence on engagements.
On June 15 2013 06:55 Killcycle wrote: Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.
Come on this nerf should be enough. A well defended hellbat-drop shouldn't kill shit now.
why would blizz change banshees? Gas first banshee is going to be really dumb especially in TvT. you can go easily go cloak off 1gas with 100/100 cost too.
hellbats need to just be mech units already. I don't even think they really need damage nerf, biggest part of the problem is how strong they are with medivacs.
On June 15 2013 06:55 Killcycle wrote: Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.
On June 15 2013 06:57 Godwrath wrote: The banshee change is great, the hellbat nerf will stop hellbat drops entirely as worker harassment (you are better off with hellions until you get blue flame... and then you are better off using hellions too, i am speaking of tvt) and i don't know how to feel about the protoss changes, the race is just not good outside alliny builds imho, and the reason is not having harassment tools, because they do, but their deathball dependence on engagements.
No it wont ... just use a "Hellbat + 2 Hellions" drop instead ... use the Hellbat to scare workers away (at 18 damage it will still kill with 3 shots) and then drop the Hellions at the spot which the workers are runnig towards. The cone-AoE will always be great against workers, BUT it will make it easier to defend against this with Zerglings!
Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
On June 15 2013 06:55 Killcycle wrote: Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.
It isnt a Marauder because of the range.
Was just a comparison for damage, it's obviously not truly a marauder.
It's an anti-light unit. Its damage should reflect that at all stages.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
On June 15 2013 07:22 Larkin wrote: 2.953? What's wrong with 2.95?
They probably just used a multiplier, something like "let's do a 15% increase"
edit: After looking at it, it's not a flat (or even a half, quarter or eighth), so.. then the best I can say is "what's wrong with 2.953?" not a good response, I know
The banshee change... will break PvT. Essentially you can go 1 gas cloak banshee and to get detection fast enough. you would need to get Robo around 25 -27 just to stay alive...
On June 15 2013 07:22 Larkin wrote: 2.953? What's wrong with 2.95?
They probably just used a multiplier, something like "let's do a 15% increase"
edit: After looking at it, it's not a flat (or even a half, quarter or eighth), so.. then the best I can say is "what's wrong with 2.953?" not a good response, I know
The day a Hive is barely not saved because the warp prism was just that bit faster...
On June 15 2013 07:28 dnld12 wrote: The banshee change... will break PvT. Essentially you can go 1 gas cloak banshee and to get detection fast enough. you would need to get Robo around 25 -27 just to stay alive...
That seems a bit ridiculous. While I agree there could be a problem with a buff this extreme, I'm not sure 25-27 supply would have to be a robo. I definitely hope the banshee buff gets scaled back significantly though.
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
On June 15 2013 07:28 dnld12 wrote: The banshee change... will break PvT. Essentially you can go 1 gas cloak banshee and to get detection fast enough. you would need to get Robo around 25 -27 just to stay alive...
Lol just don't talk nonsense. Cloaked banshee is just used in TvT. It's dead everywhere else. Protoss can even open fucking stargate and defend it easily due to detection from Oracles. Also MSC Photon Overcharge denies banshee pretty well combined with detection. Against zerg cloaked banshee is just abysmal right now (and it will probably still be). The main concern should be how would it effect TvT IMO.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
The winrate vs zerg is 60%, meanwhile zergs are winning tournaments (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues) and meanwhile only flash and innovation are dominating. Wake up mate, the hots beta-idra whine is getting old. I know for a fact tough that wol zvt was 60%..
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
Lol, what ? Making up facts too much ?
Huh, he's actually right. You can assume that the general level of play in TL is much higher than any other community. There were polls some time ago where like 50% were at least diamond (and 20% master). It probably doesn't hold anymore but it's actually true that there are a lot of diamond+ players around.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
My gut tells me the banshee change won't do much in PvT simply because everyone gets their robo about a full minute faster than in WoL, at least on average (1gate fe into robo rather than 1gate fe into 3gate into robo), which is really nice combined with the defense given by the msc.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Never is a big word. If i remember Mvp used them both in WCS finals and in the WCS europe.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Never is a big word. If i remember Mvp used them both in WCS finals and in the WCS europe.
In TvT.
Are we content to just have units like Siege Tanks, Banshees and Battlecruisers be useful in only the mirror match up while Barracks units dominate everything else?
I don't understand why many protoss are saying they are forced into robo now. If you get an oracle then pheonix you can shut down a banshee pretty fast, especially if you have a stalker or two.
WP : Yes. Since the upgrade is now less significant, they could consider reducing its price slightly, or merging it with the observer speed.
Hellbats :Yes. I'd rather have them not being healed.. but the blue flame change is nice (hope they will also make the flame look blue when upgraded now )
Banshee : Why not, but this seems too much. I'd rather have the tank buffed a bit though (single target bonus vs armored)
edit : Sircoolguy> I think because if you have a doubt, going stargate delays splash damage too much, and going templars you don't have detection ; so robo would be the go to tech path in order to have a chance against both type of play.
ok, since obviously over 90% of the people here dont understand what a big impact and wrong impact these hellbat changes bring with:
1. this nerf will change nothing about early hellbat drops, hellbats will need 1 shot more to kill a worker, but that doesnt really change the core of the problem: hellbats never die
2. mech play will be nerfed super hard early game for no reason. in wol mech play was lacking damage and a beefy unit. the hellbat is this unit. with nerfed damage before you have the upgrade you cant really be aggressive or defend hard all ins.
3. bio play will recieve direct nerfs by this change. because you will have hellbats and mines in smaller numbers or later, since u need to research 2 upgrades and more techlabs/dont have 2 reactors/have 1 techlab and the upgrades will take super long.
4. this change will lead to more passive gameplay because of 3. and this will lead to less aggressive and dynamic gameplay/takes away a bit from terrans ability to stop the enemy from doing whatever he wants
the best way of nerfing would be to take away the hellbats bio tag, because its the only way to address the drops. and this is the only thing blizzard wanted to address in the first place.
im suprised blizzard doesnt realize that and 90% here dont realize that too
It's a shame stupidity isn't a bannable offence because anyone who thinks any of the proposed changes will break the game would be perma-banned. Even reddit has a more rational view of this patch.
The only concern I have is that the warp prism speed upgrade is not worth the investment anymore.
Also Oracles are appearing less and less, I think that unit is borderline useless and needs a serious look at next.
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
Lol, what ? Making up facts too much ?
Huh, he's actually right. You can assume that the general level of play in TL is much higher than any other community. There were polls some time ago where like 50% were at least diamond (and 20% master). It probably doesn't hold anymore but it's actually true that there are a lot of diamond+ players around.
1). How can you assume that? 2). Polls from people. Because majority of people were so 'sincere' about their level?
Until provided actual data (which would be b.net attached to TL.net account or other logical alternatives) I won't listen to any of these 'assumes' because to me they look like 'my community is the best community' mindset. Till that point, I will think that player level is distributed by Gaussian distribution in TL (which is a logical thing to do), with gold leaguers being the majority here. There could be so data mismatches in the extremes of distribution (with low bronze players being not interested in scene and more professional players coming to TL due to insightful and fast news) but it should not be a noticeable factor when judging the majority's level in TL.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
Lol, what ? Making up facts too much ?
Huh, he's actually right. You can assume that the general level of play in TL is much higher than any other community. There were polls some time ago where like 50% were at least diamond (and 20% master). It probably doesn't hold anymore but it's actually true that there are a lot of diamond+ players around.
1). How can you assume that? 2). Polls from people. Because majority of people were so 'sincere' about their level?
Until provided actual data (which would be b.net attached to TL.net account or other logical alternatives) I won't listen to any of these 'assumes' because to me they look like 'my community is the best community' mindset. Till that point, I will think that player level is distributed by Gaussian distribution in TL (which is a logical thing to do), with gold leaguers being the majority here. There could be so data mismatches in the extremes of distribution (with low bronze players being not interested in scene and more professional players coming to TL due to insightful and fast news) but it should not be a noticeable factor when judging the majority's level in TL.
Lol, think what you want then. So I can assume you're gold, that's what you're saying? Huehuehue.
On June 15 2013 08:15 murphs wrote: It's a shame stupidity isn't a bannable offence because anyone who thinks any of the proposed changes will break the game would be perma-banned. Even reddit has a more rational view of this patch.
The only concern I have is that the warp prism speed upgrade is not worth the investment anymore.
Also Oracles are appearing less and less, I think that unit is borderline useless and needs a serious look at next.
its a shame that you dont understand that this nerf doesnt address what it should address, and instead nerfs things that are no problem
You'd think they'd buff the tank after seeing the widowmine get nerfed more and more before still taking the tank's place. The logic blizzard is using is somewhat reasonable but misses the big picture. Don't change harass of the other units until you know terran actually needs it after the hellbat changes. If banshees aren't used much....so what? Blizzard didn't care when they relegated the tank to a niche role.
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
Lol, what ? Making up facts too much ?
Huh, he's actually right. You can assume that the general level of play in TL is much higher than any other community. There were polls some time ago where like 50% were at least diamond (and 20% master). It probably doesn't hold anymore but it's actually true that there are a lot of diamond+ players around.
1). How can you assume that? 2). Polls from people. Because majority of people were so 'sincere' about their level?
Until provided actual data (which would be b.net attached to TL.net account or other logical alternatives) I won't listen to any of these 'assumes' because to me they look like 'my community is the best community' mindset. Till that point, I will think that player level is distributed by Gaussian distribution in TL (which is a logical thing to do), with gold leaguers being the majority here. There could be so data mismatches in the extremes of distribution (with low bronze players being not interested in scene and more professional players coming to TL due to insightful and fast news) but it should not be a noticeable factor when judging the majority's level in TL.
Lol, think what you want then. So I can assume you're gold, that's what you're saying? Huehuehue.
It's good that you finished your baseless statement with such a stupid post. I don't feel a need to argue you anymore.
On June 15 2013 07:07 OneSpeed wrote: Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.
Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.
Well done blizz.
It takes constant micro to do any harassment while macroing behind it. That includes hellions, repeats, any drops, Mutas or run bys.
A lot of people on this forum play at least diamond level of all three races and no race has a strict guideline to follow that will allow you to win every time (you can easily tell who doesn't). The reason the banshee buff would be too much is it doesn't buff the unit itself but rather how fast you can get it. This will lead to more cheesy openings and a possibly re viable 1-1-1 instead of more banshee usage throughout the game which is what I would like to see.
Lol, what ? Making up facts too much ?
Huh, he's actually right. You can assume that the general level of play in TL is much higher than any other community. There were polls some time ago where like 50% were at least diamond (and 20% master). It probably doesn't hold anymore but it's actually true that there are a lot of diamond+ players around.
1). How can you assume that? 2). Polls from people. Because majority of people were so 'sincere' about their level?
Until provided actual data (which would be b.net attached to TL.net account or other logical alternatives) I won't listen to any of these 'assumes' because to me they look like 'my community is the best community' mindset. Till that point, I will think that player level is distributed by Gaussian distribution in TL (which is a logical thing to do), with gold leaguers being the majority here. There could be so data mismatches in the extremes of distribution (with low bronze players being not interested in scene and more professional players coming to TL due to insightful and fast news) but it should not be a noticeable factor when judging the majority's level in TL.
Lol, think what you want then. So I can assume you're gold, that's what you're saying? Huehuehue.
It's good that you finished your baseless statement with such a stupid post. I don't feel a need to argue you anymore.
See that's funny because I actually know you're master, which fits my "model of TL" better. But come on man, I'm just joshing ya, but your assumption of a typical Gaussion distribution of level on TL is as baseless as it gets as well.
On June 15 2013 08:14 headnut wrote: ok, since obviously over 90% of the people here dont understand what a big impact and wrong impact these hellbat changes bring with:
1. this nerf will change nothing about early hellbat drops, hellbats will need 1 shot more to kill a worker, but that doesnt really change the core of the problem: hellbats never die
2. mech play will be nerfed super hard early game for no reason. in wol mech play was lacking damage and a beefy unit. the hellbat is this unit. with nerfed damage before you have the upgrade you cant really be aggressive or defend hard all ins.
3. bio play will recieve direct nerfs by this change. because you will have hellbats and mines in smaller numbers or later, since u need to research 2 upgrades and more techlabs/dont have 2 reactors/have 1 techlab and the upgrades will take super long.
4. this change will lead to more passive gameplay because of 3. and this will lead to less aggressive and dynamic gameplay/takes away a bit from terrans ability to stop the enemy from doing whatever he wants
the best way of nerfing would be to take away the hellbats bio tag, because its the only way to address the drops. and this is the only thing blizzard wanted to address in the first place.
im suprised blizzard doesnt realize that and 90% here dont realize that too
This post should be in the OP. Really well said. The actual problem (hellbat drops) will still be there after this nerf. Hellbats will disapear in TvZ armies, since you need a 150/150 upgrade, and investing into that makes your midgame push much weaker (and midgame is where the hellbat shines in battles). Oh "150/150" is not a big deal! Yeah true, and let's see how big a deal it would be if we made the spire 150/150 more. Everyone who plays terran know that you are gas starved in the early game: techlabs, stim, combat shield, factory, addons, starport, upgrades, armory = sick amount of gas. In the midgame gas is no problem tough.
Things that would nerf the drops: - more cargo space (5) - no healing
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine.
Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway.
Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use?
Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
On June 15 2013 08:14 headnut wrote: ok, since obviously over 90% of the people here dont understand what a big impact and wrong impact these hellbat changes bring with:
1. this nerf will change nothing about early hellbat drops, hellbats will need 1 shot more to kill a worker, but that doesnt really change the core of the problem: hellbats never die
What if they don't die if they don't kill shit?
2. mech play will be nerfed super hard early game for no reason. in wol mech play was lacking damage and a beefy unit. the hellbat is this unit. with nerfed damage before you have the upgrade you cant really be aggressive or defend hard all ins.
Good riddance, mech is fucking boring, especially hellbat-based mech. If it can nerf mech enough that Blizzard feels the need to buff other things, then great. Edit: Boring, except the UNBREAKABLE Jürgen.
3. bio play will recieve direct nerfs by this change. because you will have hellbats and mines in smaller numbers or later, since u need to research 2 upgrades and more techlabs/dont have 2 reactors/have 1 techlab and the upgrades will take super long.
Lolwut? "Bio play" and "hellbats" what? Yeah I know hellbats are bio but come on man, I don't make hellbats if I go bio... Unless you're assuming I go hellbat drops into bio, which I won't because the drops won't kill anything :D
4. this change will lead to more passive gameplay because of 3. and this will lead to less aggressive and dynamic gameplay/takes away a bit from terrans ability to stop the enemy from doing whatever he wants
It just sounds like you like massing hellbats for whatever reasons. I say get more bio and micro it, you'll feel more dynamic about yourself.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
Exactly the problem. I don't like mines. Hellbats worked perfect in the Army. Now they aren't that usefull in fights anymore. At least they should move the Upgrade to the Armory, so that no Techlab at the factory is required. But than the Nerf just has an effect on the Timing. People can still the do the insane Drop. They should change something diffrent, maybe that they can't be healed?
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Edit: I like when Flash and Mvp play mech, but mech is one of those strats that become really stale and boring the lower the level of play. Mech at foreigner level is equivalent to turtling behind tanks and moving out with planetaries across the map while dropping some hellbats. Super fun. But yeah when Mvp plays it that's a different story. An UNBREAKABLE one at that.
On June 15 2013 08:14 headnut wrote: ok, since obviously over 90% of the people here dont understand what a big impact and wrong impact these hellbat changes bring with:
1. this nerf will change nothing about early hellbat drops, hellbats will need 1 shot more to kill a worker, but that doesnt really change the core of the problem: hellbats never die
2. mech play will be nerfed super hard early game for no reason. in wol mech play was lacking damage and a beefy unit. the hellbat is this unit. with nerfed damage before you have the upgrade you cant really be aggressive or defend hard all ins.
Good riddance, mech is fucking boring, especially hellbat-based mech. If it can nerf mech enough that Blizzard feels the need to buff other things, then great. Edit: Boring, except the UNBREAKABLE Jürgen.
3. bio play will recieve direct nerfs by this change. because you will have hellbats and mines in smaller numbers or later, since u need to research 2 upgrades and more techlabs/dont have 2 reactors/have 1 techlab and the upgrades will take super long.
Lolwut? "Bio play" and "hellbats" what? Yeah I know hellbats are bio but come on man, I don't make hellbats if I go bio... Unless you're assuming I go hellbat drops into bio, which I won't because the drops won't kill anything :D
4. this change will lead to more passive gameplay because of 3. and this will lead to less aggressive and dynamic gameplay/takes away a bit from terrans ability to stop the enemy from doing whatever he wants
It just sounds like you like massing hellbats for whatever reasons. I say get more bio and micro it, you'll feel more dynamic about yourself.
-- Truly yours, the 90%.
its ok if you think mech is boring. probably because you dont understand how mech needs to be played . its actually much deeper and needs more decision making than bio.
hellbats are used in bio compositions vs toss and vs zerg. just because you dont do it, it doesnt mean other people dont want to do it.
if you dont have to say something smart, just dont post at all.
and if you think mech = turtling... go and watch streloks wcs games
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
If warp prisms go all the way up to 2.953 then neither corruptors or vikings will ever be able to chase them down. It seems ridiculous to me that a dedicated antiair unit won't even be able to kill a transport. These units are enough of an anti-colossus one-trick pony as it is, don't make them worse. I'd rather see the base speed at 2.75 or 2.70.
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
flash vs fantasy tvt
tell me you want bio more than what you have seen in this video.
On June 15 2013 08:51 BaronVonOwn wrote: If warp prisms go all the way up to 2.953 then neither corruptors or vikings will ever be able to chase them down. It seems ridiculous to me that a dedicated antiair unit won't even be able to kill a transport. These units are enough of an anti-colossus one-trick pony as it is, don't make them worse. I'd rather see the base speed at 2.75 or 2.70.
Indeed. I don't know if people remember lategame zealot dt harass in wol (Hero did it a lot). It was sick strong. Now this will be even stronger. 2 prisms constantly harassing lategame will make tvp lategame really really hard.
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
thought you are talking about general mech play in hots.
On June 15 2013 03:56 Hitch-22 wrote: Hellbats need a nerf in straight up fights... watching a rauder/tank army lose everytime to a hellbat/tank army means that you can only go hellbat vs hellbat, there is no comprimise and as such creates really shitt MU's where rauder/tank could outplay tank/hellion - hellbat/tank always has the advantage every f ucking time...
So frustrating to play TvT vs bad players who just mass hellbats and 1a2a3a move whistle doing no economic damage to you and being a base behind but your 200/200 army is just weaker and as such you lose everytime unless they make critical mistakes.
why would you go tank marauder and not tank marine in tvt?
the most important thing about this change. Does the Hellbats shoots blue flame after the upgrade? or just damage will change? Blue flame hellbats would be cool. (i think there used to be in early beta).
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
The problem is that people don't really realize what it takes skillwise to make mech seem as fun as it looks when Mvp or Flash or Fantasy play it. Watch anything below that, mech just feels boring. People just end up sitting behind tanks and thinking they're decision making gods when they "slow-push" across the map after turtling "positionally" for 15 minutes (and their opponent isn't even attacking them). No, dropping hellbats while you fill up your factories with tanks is not "sick play". No, waiting for your master opponent to randomly a-move his army into your 30 sieged tanks is not "sick play". No, killing 10 mutalisks because they reacted too late to your 2 widow mines + 2 turrets + 1 thor turtle is not "sick play" either.
What great players do is indeed beautiful mech, but nobody else does it, so meh for mech :/ I realize a lot of players like mech on this forum, be it because it hasn't been used enough in WoL or because it was cool in BW or whatever, but it just doesn't feel cool when playing subpar, it actually feels like a weaker Protoss usual deathball play, and that's not what we want it to be.
On the contrary, bio doesn't take as much decision making (as judiciously pointed out by headnut) and revolves around mechanics and micro, which even lower level players can try to do and make it seem somewhat interesting.
Edit: And here it comes, headnut quotes the latest VOD of Flash vs Fantasy, which was great and he thinks I disagree with him I'm not talking about the top 5 Terrans in the world :D
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
The trouble is Plansix is that the tank is so bad that without hellbats being super good, mech is worthless. Late game if you've got a tank heavy army you're basically screwed against everything. Ultras deal with them unless you sit behind walls (which I have to do, the tank being so bad forces me to turtle) and don't even get me started on zealots, immortals and archons.
Mech doesn't have to be all about turtling, but thanks to having a complete lack of any good AOE against armored units in a mech army, the game design forces you to turtle more.
I'd love to be able to push against toss after the 20 minute mark but thanks to warp ins and tanks not being able to hold their own against literally anything, it makes it impossible so I just have to sit behind walls of planetary fortresses and hope I get a good engagement with my ravens./vikings with air or get some lucky EMP's when they charge into me with ground.
On June 15 2013 08:51 BaronVonOwn wrote: If warp prisms go all the way up to 2.953 then neither corruptors or vikings will ever be able to chase them down. It seems ridiculous to me that a dedicated antiair unit won't even be able to kill a transport. These units are enough of an anti-colossus one-trick pony as it is, don't make them worse. I'd rather see the base speed at 2.75 or 2.70.
So if corruptors and vikings cant chase medivacs its ok, but if they cant chase the protoss transport unit, blizzard is wrong.
Sure.
The thing is, to drop, the Warprism needs to be STATIC. Because the warps comes in the static mode.
Its totally not as strong as a medivac. It just doesnt die too easily, but that doesnt mean that you can easily drop with it.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
If you want to look at tournament results and then judge balance, look at what strategy won, and how... Zergs are cheesy as fuck because they know they're at a disadvantage if they let T build up. Terrans are the ones that got the new stuff, when terran players will master their new strategies and compositions dont worry, they'll dominate. Fucking roach rush games and you use it as a balance measurement...
I'll just say this and end my ramblings with it: Of course the hellbat nerf is a mech nerf, nothing is more blatant than that. While I'm personally okay with it, I understand some people like to play mech. To those I say: if mech is too weak because hellbats become too weak (to tank properly or harass or defend timings or whatever), Blizzard will probably try to buff something else, which is likely to be more interesting in the long run (unless they buff the fucking thors, FUUUUUU :D)
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
On June 15 2013 09:06 aZealot wrote: Does this thread also have to devolve, yet again, into another bout of nauseating nostalgia for Mech? Good god! >_<
I'm sorry, I don't know about you but I just find watching pretty much only bio every single game incredibly boring. I've never liked Bio play, even in BW as although it takes a lot of micro I really find it hard to appreciate the minor details as it's more about trying to force mistakes rather than winning through more clever play.
I really just want the game to have as many options as possible and if they make mech stronger, which they said they wanted to do, then maybe we'd see Stargate play and TvP wouldn't be the same game every single time. People complain about ZvP from WoL, but in my opinion TvP is much worse. Pretty much every single game might as well just be moulded together because to me, that's what it looks like. Nothing ever changes and the metagame has been the same since WoL was released. It's terrible.
Either way, these changes seem pretty fine to me. Better banshees could lead to some more banshee openings again which is actually enjoyable to watch and it could be a somewhat stealth buff to mech. With Hellbats just having their damage moved to BFH I think that works out fine too since BFH are better at harass anyway and it means it'll be more likely we'll be seeing it and the transformation if for some reason we do get to finally see mech outside of TvT.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine.
Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway.
Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use?
Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Warp prisms, according to Blizzard, are being considered to address Protoss 'weakness'. This is arguable. I personally think this change has more to do with allowing differing play styles for a race that is relegated to 'defend until 200/200' or hit a timing you pulled off your build-order wheel. A restriction that the other two races do not have to the same degree.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine.
Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway.
Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use?
Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Pretty simple.
The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
David Kim: We've noticed that it's taking a little too long for Protoss to fulfill their intended role of sacrificing thousand of minerals so we made the Warp Prism faster.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
I cannot believe you think that is even a semblance of a rational argument. You begin by implying that Terran vs Zerg was a good matchup by the end of Wings of Liberty. Terran vs Zerg, while an incredibly entertaining exchange for the vast majority of its lifetime, was a piss-poor shadow of itself by the end of the last era, both balance-wise and entertainment wise. Terran was winning about 30 percent of the time in the GSL by the end of Wings of Liberty, and almost every game involved some failed 2 base allin thanks to range 5 queens, or a terrible lategame vs obviously broken broodlord infestor. The game is currently more balanced than it has been in a long time, not my words, the words of David Kim, the man you just insulted after nicely reaping the benefits of lategame Zerg in Wings of Liberty. Terran is favored by only 3 percent in the matchup according to the latest statistic, and you +/- chart fails to take into account the MASSIVE advantage Zerg had in the matchup in Wings of Liberty. Don't act as if balance design is a simple interaction of pluses and minuses, its an incredibly complicated affair having to do with current player mentality, map pool, and metagame positioning. I am not saying the game is currently perfectly balanced (asymetrical design makes this impossible) but it's sure as hell better than it used to be.
I like the terran changes, not really the protoss changes. Watch moons zepplin micro if you want to see one of a few reasons a faster warp prism can be problematic.
Hellbat too strong obvious nerf, banshee may be a bit drastic but will hopefully bring back hellion banshee tvz
Blizzard NEEDS to add widow mine priority target w/e it is called fix.
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
As opposed to legion of players who demand that they can amove their army into siege lines and win (which is actually true in tvp) ?
On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Says you Zenith. I love Mech.
Blizzard doesn't :/
Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that.
Yes, exactly.
And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game.
watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling?
his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive.
What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
As opposed to legion of players who demand that they can amove their army into siege lines and win (which is actually true in tvp) ?
I don't see anybody asking for that. Because we can already a-move siege tanks like they're nothing YEAHHHHHH!! ;D
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Warp prisms, according to Blizzard, are being considered to address Protoss 'weakness'. This is arguable. I personally think this change has more to do with allowing differing play styles for a race that is relegated to 'defend until 200/200' or hit a timing you pulled off your build-order wheel. A restriction that the other two races do not have to the same degree.
Pretty simple.
Agree with most of this. I doubt a huge change will go through on banshees after the balance testing. Hopefully some sort of hellbat refinement and a protoss change will go through.
On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote: Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs
Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait.
There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion.
Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
I cannot believe you think that is even a semblance of a rational argument. You begin by implying that Terran vs Zerg was a good matchup by the end of Wings of Liberty. Terran vs Zerg, while an incredibly entertaining exchange for the vast majority of its lifetime, was a piss-poor shadow of itself by the end of the last era, both balance-wise and entertainment wise. Terran was winning about 30 percent of the time in the GSL by the end of Wings of Liberty, and almost every game involved some failed 2 base allin thanks to range 5 queens, or a terrible lategame vs obviously broken broodlord infestor. The game is currently more balanced than it has been in a long time, not my words, the words of David Kim, the man you just insulted after nicely reaping the benefits of lategame Zerg in Wings of Liberty. Terran is favored by only 3 percent in the matchup according to the latest statistic, and you +/- chart fails to take into account the MASSIVE advantage Zerg had in the matchup in Wings of Liberty. Don't act as if balance design is a simple interaction of pluses and minuses, its an incredibly complicated affair having to do with current player mentality, map pool, and metagame positioning. I am not saying the game is currently perfectly balanced (asymetrical design makes this impossible) but it's sure as hell better than it used to be.
Let me guess, you play protoss? The words of Sir David Kid? Am I supposed to kneel? Ah mkay I guess its just for terrans. David Kim repeatedly prooved he isnt an expert, and that he mostly wanted the game to be "fun and exciting for the viewers" by increasing offensive strategies potency, what else do you need? Terran favored by only 3 percent, like I said, just wait 3 months, you'll get patched, and you'll look at your "the game is currently balanced" and make a sadface.
Of course its complicated, but right now, its not complicated to see the potential of the terran race, at all and thats why its shocking, the + and - still stands, it is so obviously unbalanced that it stands. I dont get how so many people can be such hypocrites... So I guess you're terran, and I'm zerg, and this is getting useless, thing is, you'll get patched, maybe in a month, maybe in 5, maybe both since terran will dominate and as usual blizz will patch and patch and change bunkers, and yes I want it to change ASAP as a viewer, not a player, I dont intend to get above mid master, I never did, I play casually these days and have no interest in perfect balance personally, but as an esport fan, the next few months will turn to shit, dont worry, 6 months, just like in WoL, they'll kill terran and we will always go at it like that, overbuff, overnerf, overbuff, overnerf. The race doesnt matter at that point, this game is already loosing a good amount of viewers because of various reasons, balance unstability, patches every 3 months will finish it off I guess.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine.
Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway.
Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use?
Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Pretty simple.
The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people.
Its mainly because its too hard to balance to do that, in fact it may not even been litterally possible to balance a game that way. In fact, the legendary Brood War had units that were never usable in any matchup at any time.
On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote: Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard.
Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective.
Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps.
Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what?
This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there).
Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine.
Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway.
Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use?
Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Pretty simple.
The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people.
Its mainly because its too hard to balance to do that, in fact it may not even been litterally possible to balance a game that way. In fact, the legendary Brood War had units that were never usable in any matchup at any time.
But in starcraft 2 they try to give nearly all units a role (except battlecruiser, Carrier, Mothership).
On June 15 2013 09:06 aZealot wrote: Does this thread also have to devolve, yet again, into another bout of nauseating nostalgia for Mech? Good god! >_<
I'm sorry, I don't know about you but I just find watching pretty much only bio every single game incredibly boring. I've never liked Bio play, even in BW as although it takes a lot of micro I really find it hard to appreciate the minor details as it's more about trying to force mistakes rather than winning through more clever play.
I really just want the game to have as many options as possible and if they make mech stronger, which they said they wanted to do, then maybe we'd see Stargate play and TvP wouldn't be the same game every single time. People complain about ZvP from WoL, but in my opinion TvP is much worse. Pretty much every single game might as well just be moulded together because to me, that's what it looks like. Nothing ever changes and the metagame has been the same since WoL was released. It's terrible.
Either way, these changes seem pretty fine to me. Better banshees could lead to some more banshee openings again which is actually enjoyable to watch and it could be a somewhat stealth buff to mech. With Hellbats just having their damage moved to BFH I think that works out fine too since BFH are better at harass anyway and it means it'll be more likely we'll be seeing it and the transformation if for some reason we do get to finally see mech outside of TvT.
Sorry, if I came across as acerbic. It's just that I am more than a little tired of Terran tears for Mech.
Of course, if would be nice to have more gameplay and unit options. But the fact is, that the realisation of these options would lead to massive churn in the meta for a period of many months as the changes and counters are worked through and as, inevitably, more patches are introduced. In the case of mech, I doubt it is worth it. I doubt it because SC2 is largely a different game from BW. This is to state the obvious, but it seems it needs to be stated due to the unvarying assumption on these boards, as far as I can see, that a stronger tank, for example, in SC2 will linearly lead to mech styles similar to BW.
There is nothing to indicate that this will be the case. Other than wishful thinking. What is more likely is that turtle mech play styles will be encouraged leading to yet more complaints - albeit of a different kind this time. What is also likely is that elements of mech in combination with bio will, in all probability, make Terran OP. This is because bio, again to state the obvious, is very strong in SC2 and is tailored to a mobile and aggressive style. It's not as simple as buff the tank, and suddenly we'll have positional mech engagements a la BW and everything else will be the same. This is very, very unlikely.
I understand the boredom aspect of playing the same play style. And I also understand the frustration of Terran players who do not have the mechanics to play the active bio heavy Terran style in SC2. But, this does not necessarily mean that Blizzard are obligated to (in all probability) overturn the game just so as alleviate these feelings on the part of a small fraction of the playing population. It is simply not worth it. The rather more obvious course to take, if you cannot play an optimal Terran style is to change race, or if you are bored with what the game can provide, simply stop playing.
Not sure why so many people are hating on the banshee change, the unit feels pretty dead in competitive play.
I do think cutting the research time seems a bit much but a cheaper cloak seems reasonable.
edit: aZealot I think everyone has seen on your opinion on mech by this point, its literally starting to feel like trolling with your snide comments and same rants over and over. You don't see people crusading against air toss or templar tech, give it a rest.
I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
You and me both! I've been wanting a stronger Stalker for a very long time. Any buff to the Stalker (straight base damage and hp for example) would have to be balanced by a corresponding nerf to Blink though. Anything less would not be fair.
Anyway, sorry for the derail. I like all of these changes, with the exception of the cheapness of the Banshee cloak upgrade. But, like I said earlier in the thread, I think these changes are an extreme version of what eventually makes it to the patch.
don't you guys see what they are doing? they are making a big change and will probably remove it or draw it back to 150/150. The last patch was the same, they wanted to make a drastic change to see how players reacted, they saw it's effectiveness and drew back the change half way and the change STILL isn't live, proving that blizzard is making these adjustments very carefully. Let's see how it plays instead of theorcraft, even though it's probably true, and see how blizzard responds.
On June 15 2013 04:53 Xequecal wrote: This change breaks PvT. The standard Protoss 1 gate expand (gate core nexus gate gate robo) pops its first observer at 7:15. A gas-first Terran build can pop a banshee at 6:25 and finish cloak by 6:55. You can't even 1-gate expo anymore without dying or leaving yourself very vulnerable by making the robo before your second and third gates. Even if you do this, you have to produce three obs and the first two can't scout or Terran can just wreck your econ by bouncing between mineral patches as the banshee is faster than the observer. The fact that it's now mandatory to spend 150 gas to defend against the potential of 100 gas cloak is ridiculous.
I dunno how you're supposed to defend against the banshee at all on maps with a large distance between the main and natural mineral lines like Akilon wastes. The banshee can just head for the base where your observer isn't and kill a lot of probes.
You can't quite get 6:55 cloak on 1 gas, but you can take the second gas very late and then take the SCVs out afterwards. Before you had to take the second gas much earlier, losing more mineral income. That combined with the 200 mineral cost of the research meant your expansion was delayed a lot. Now you can mine more minerals and the research only costs 100 minerals so you can start an expansion way earlier. This build also conveniently gets cloak early enough to squash any void ray or immortal allins.
Lol, this is not standard protoss gate expand anymore. Shit dude, Super did a build in GSTL today that got his robo down at 4:50.
The banshee change is interesting and will allow for the option of cloaked banshee builds in TvZ and TvP which are never seen right now because of how far back they set you in economy. Overall I like all of the changes.
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
QFT.. a stalker buff (especially antiair damage) is what I've been clamoring for since the beginning of WoL - its such a terrible unit by cost.
On June 15 2013 03:34 Plansix wrote: Sure, I will take it. I hate banshees with the white hot fire of 1000 suns, but we have so much detection now and the cannon, I don't mind a bit of a buff.
Agreed with this. Super Nexus are crazy good, and Zerg has queens up the wazoo.
On June 15 2013 11:17 Bagi wrote: edit: aZealot I think everyone has seen on your opinion on mech by this point, its literally starting to feel like trolling with your snide comments and same rants over and over. You don't see people crusading against air toss or templar tech, give it a rest.
Fair enough. Except it's not a rant. Although, I can, admittedly, be a little snide at times.
Anyway, I could easily the same about you, bud.
Edit/ That said, I'm sorry to derail the thread, yet again. I'm done, and out.
What does it take to completely shut down cloaked banshees in TvT? Good scouting, a couple vikings and a couple turrets will 100% defend you mineral lines, and leave the other guy behind. We saw this in WoL all the time. Now the other guy wont be as behind from now on. Now tell me what units completely shut down a hellbat drop in TvT.
I would much prefer banshees being the go to with hellbat drops mixed in to all hellbats all the time because the banshee offers so much more room for counter play in the matchup.
hellbat nerf is reasonable i guess .. not nerfing the base damage to much is good so that its still viable ..
idk if the warp prism change will really reward multitasking .. it just endorses drop play
and the banshee clock buff is good .. perhaps too good they should just make it 125/125 or 150/150 .. and also banshee buff is good it rewards high skill ceiling play
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
QFT.. a stalker buff (especially antiair damage) is what I've been clamoring for since the beginning of WoL - its such a terrible unit by cost.
Completely agree. Fuckin ground vikings do more dps than stalkers. I shit you not. Originally buffing stalkers would have broken 4 gate, but 4 gate is completely useless now. At least buff their upgrade dmg. They only get +1 per attack. What a joke.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Hellbats damage nerf is a bit too drastic for me as i think it will reduce their performance against chargelots. My beef with Hellbats is that they can be be healed.
On June 15 2013 08:06 eXdeath wrote: WP : Yes. Since the upgrade is now less significant, they could consider reducing its price slightly, or merging it with the observer speed.
The hellbat change is pretty good imo, It will forces terran who want better harass from hellbat to build a tech lab or another factory. This will somewhat promote mech play, because going bio + hellbat will be a bit limited in the beginning and this will however make hellbat more fit into mech play.
The other changes are just stupid lol. They should nerf sentry then buff zealot+stalker by allowing micro to increase their usability. Oh...
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
You and me both! I've been wanting a stronger Stalker for a very long time. Any buff to the Stalker (straight base damage and hp for example) would have to be balanced by a corresponding nerf to Blink though. Anything less would not be fair.
Anyway, sorry for the derail. I like all of these changes, with the exception of the cheapness of the Banshee cloak upgrade. But, like I said earlier in the thread, I think these changes are an extreme version of what eventually makes it to the patch.
Well, HotS seems like a good time to introduce such a change considering they have already nerfed blink. Would be a decent trade off.
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused.
Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air....
Which is why he mentioned the phoenix
Yet he also said 2 oracles
Would be interesting if Oracles could attack air. In fact if they could, they would be a pretty decent counter to banshees considering the bonus damage it does to light (and banshee is a light unit)
Sucks to have to get a tech lab to upgrade hellbats when you really only had 1 reactored factory TvZ/TvP for dual hellbat production, but meh.
I like the idea of promoting more banshee usage but I think the cost the should be decreased to 150/150 with the research reduction OR the cost decreased to 100/100 and the research time is left the same. Feels like hellbat openings are just going to be replaced with banshee rushes every game.
I'm sure Blizzard will take note of stuff like this after people have played on the map and given feedback though, so we'll see. I like the initiative on proposing these changes at least though.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Nerfed by requiring some research. By the time you've got an army to use Hellbats with, you'll already have the research.
The point is to make fast Hellbat drops slower or less damaging. That research cost means your Medivac is going to be that much slower coming out, or you're going to have to sacrifice something else in order to get the research upgraded before you drop.
That's how it weakens drops.
I honestly have no idea where they're going with the cloak buff though...
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
I guess the cloak buff is similar to the dark shrine cost buff. So banshee build is not a heavy invested build, but more like an optional opener. Cloak banshee build is not too hard to stop in HOTS. TvZ, spores can be make without evo. Protoss have photon overcharge. TvT, Banshee is probably one of the easier thing to stop.
I'm not feeling the banshee change really. I like Lukeeze's idea to merge the cloaks of ghost and banshee but i'm not sure how that could be done really as they're from different buildings. You definitely can't put the banshee cloak on the ghost building but I guess adding it to the tech lab wouldn't be a bad idea. I guess we'll see how it plays out though but it seems like dropping to 100/100 is pretty serious.
On June 15 2013 12:35 Hangman89 wrote: Hellbats damage nerf is a bit too drastic for me as i think it will reduce their performance against chargelots. My beef with Hellbats is that they can be be healed.
Nah, Hellbats should have blue flame just because... it's nice and it was from the start. Don't know why they removed blue flame for hellbats at some time
Warp Prism: No idea why they seem fixated on buffing the warp prism. If it's harass options they want to give toss the warp prism is already decent at it. The oracle is what's pretty bad unless your opponent has no idea you are going to go oracle.
HellBat: While I'd of still liked to see them just remove the healing or something of that nature, at least early 1 base hellions won't be quite so powerful, which is really the big problem with them right now. Late game currently they are good but I wouldn't say broken, so the change could work.
Banshee: You could probably argue the HB drops were a large issue in all match ups, but cloaked banshee will be stupid in TvP and TvT with a change like this. It easily could replace the HB drop.
I feel like the Banshee change isn't that big of a deal. 250/200 is a huge investment compared to 300/100 and it can't do nearly as much damage as a Hellbat drop provided that scans exist. Two Banshees would probably balance it out, but that's 400/300. Even after the Hellbat nerf the drops will cost 450/250.
All in all Terran has more equally viable choices for harass (just when I thought it wouldn't be possible) and Hellbat drops arrive later.
People are making a bigger deal about the hellbat nerf then it really warrants. Hellbat drops early game were stupid. They ere practically impossible to defend against. You could just win simply by dropping Hellbats.
And guess what. Get the blue flame and bam you have your bonus back. So enjoy your free wins for now.
EDIT: As for the Banshee. I we don't need faster/cheaper cloak. What we need are faster banshees. Protoss and Zerg are pretty immune to banshee openers. The only thing Banshees are gonna do is make TvT really stupid. not to mention weaken Mech TvT because your so much better off getting a crap ton of marines.
On June 15 2013 14:24 Antylamon wrote: I feel like the Banshee change isn't that big of a deal. 250/200 is a huge investment compared to 300/100 and it can't do nearly as much damage as a Hellbat drop provided that scans exist. Two Banshees would probably balance it out, but that's 400/300. Even after the Hellbat nerf the drops will cost only 450/250.
All in all Terran has more equally viable choices for harass (just when I thought it wouldn't be possible) and Hellbat drops arrive later.
Ehhh I wouldn't agree with that.
Provided that scans exist? That's very vague. You still have limited scans, and if you don't kill the banshee with the scan you're going to have hardly any SCVs by the time you have another scan. Even with scans, you need stimmed marines and/or turrets and/or vikings to take down the banshee. Depending on the opening those may be things you don't have. Even in the pro scene there are games that last no longer than 10 minutes due to significant banshee damage.
If your opponent goes hellbat drop and you don't scout it, you lose some SCVs, then get your units in position to defend and the threat is thwarted. If your opponent goes banshee and you don't scout it, it's in your base killing stuff and much harder to effectively defend. It's not uncommon to see a banshee kill 15+ units in a game, and with even faster cloak and research time that only goes up.
I think it definitely compares to the damage hellbat drops do. If it was a banshee opening vs a hellbat opening the build order advantage probably goes to the hellbat player though just because you can make 2 vikings asap, but I would say both openings can do comparable damage to an assortment of other Terran openings.
The banshee buff is good. 150/150 might be better but it encourages other forms of harassment other than hellbat drops which is great. Everyone complaining that you could go cloak on 1 gas, yes that is true but you have to realize that you are going to get the necessary gas (100 for fact,100 for Starport, 100 for cloak, and 100 for banshee) much much slower. I think people should maybe wait til they've actually played the map before complaining that something is imba.
The banshee change blows my mind. Why would they even think of tweaking that is beyond me. Not only they decrease the cost but the research time as well? Because we just can't get enough the cheesy/autoloss builds that define SC2. rofl
On June 15 2013 14:43 GinDo wrote: People are making a bigger deal about the hellbat nerf then it really warrants. Hellbat drops early game were stupid. They ere practically impossible to defend against. You could just win simply by dropping Hellbats.
And guess what. Get the blue flame and bam you have your bonus back. So enjoy your free wins for now.
EDIT: As for the Banshee. I we don't need faster/cheaper cloak. What we need are faster banshees. Protoss and Zerg are pretty immune to banshee openers. The only thing Banshees are gonna do is make TvT really stupid. not to mention weaken Mech TvT because your so much better off getting a crap ton of marines.
Protoss: Stargate/Robo shut it down + MS Core
Zerg: Spores that require Spawning pool.
Or you know you could get a thor or use the vikings you already have??? Its not that big a deal and won't make them more common in any stage past the midgame. They still cost alot to make and are easily countered. I am not sure about the buff though, I open banshees in most of my tvts so at least in that match up they are still a decent option.
On June 15 2013 15:30 kasumimi wrote: The banshee change blows my mind. Why would they even think of tweaking that is beyond me. Not only they decrease the cost but the research time as well? Because we just can't get enough the cheesy/autoloss builds that define SC2. rofl
Is that hard to start with widow mines, turrets and marines?
Would be interesting if Oracles could attack air. In fact if they could, they would be a pretty decent counter to banshees considering the bonus damage it does to light (and banshee is a light unit)
But you have phoenixes... why not combine oracle/phoenix?
On June 15 2013 03:31 Decendos wrote: awesome changes! also so awesome to see they care about making zerg more fun to play and test all that nydus/drop/hydra/corruptor/overseer/neural parasite stuff that would make zerg fun to play! like it a lot!
This. No1 reason why I still have not bought HotS.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
Imagine you are a terran that doesn't want to play marine mine, and you prefer hellbat marine. This is nerfed and done. Meanwhile speedvac + hellbat harass is still possible, and will still do a shitton of damage.
You still have the pre-ignitor upgrade. Seems more balanced imo that both hellbat and hellion should require this upgrade.
That being said, I doubt the change will go through. Toss and Zergs crying like crazy even though no one even uses banshees anymore in those matchups whatsoever.
I like that banshee change, and I'm a Protoss player... Stargate is a lot more viable than it was (hello phoenixes) and now it has detection available. Likewise, Zerg no longer need an evolution chamber to put spores. Detection is easier to get than it was in WoL, I don't know how this buff will turn out but making banshees less of an investment is a sound idea.
I'm not sure why any protoss/zerg would be upset with banshees getting buffed, when was the last time you even saw those in competitive play or even ladder? Are banshees commonly used on any level of play?
On June 15 2013 17:17 SSVnormandy wrote: the hellbat nerf will allow protoss to go back to the newb archon chargelot aclick style not sur if its a good idea
Why? Blue flame hellbats still own Zealots pretty good, and Ghosts still own Protoss nicely with EMPs.
On June 15 2013 17:17 SSVnormandy wrote: the hellbat nerf will allow protoss to go back to the newb archon chargelot aclick style not sur if its a good idea
Why? Blue flame hellbats still own Zealots pretty good, and Ghosts still own Protoss nicely with EMPs.
Terrans are allergic to tech labs in the midgame on anything that isn't a rax
He's right that the matchup will change a lot because a) it takes longer to do the (generally) 2fact hellbat switch, b) there will be less hellbats since one fact will have a tech lab rather than a reactor c) it could open up a pre blueflame timing for the protoss in which zealot/templar can still wreck shit, especially if they skip ghosts like many hellbat players like to do.
I don't think that will create balance problems though.
On June 15 2013 17:17 SSVnormandy wrote: the hellbat nerf will allow protoss to go back to the newb archon chargelot aclick style not sur if its a good idea
Why? Blue flame hellbats still own Zealots pretty good, and Ghosts still own Protoss nicely with EMPs.
Terrans are allergic to tech labs in the midgame on anything that isn't a rax
He's right that the matchup will change a lot because a) it takes longer to do the (generally) 2fact hellbat switch, b) there will be less hellbats since one fact will have a tech lab rather than a reactor c) it could open up a pre blueflame timing for the protoss in which zealot/templar can still wreck shit, especially if they skip ghosts like many hellbat players like to do.
I don't think that will create balance problems though.
Yeah, I think some guys that incorporated hellbats early will have to change their playstyles - which are in most cases guys that did hellbat drops everygame and will have to adapt anyways. Everyone else who went for the standard more bioheavy play (or bio/mine in TvZ) can just go on playing the same way. And then come up with a new transition with double factories (like in TvZ with mines) or maybe find a different opening with blue flame.
Some of the replies in this thread to the cloak banshee change are hiliarious. The unit has barely been used in HotS and both Protoss and Zerg have been given tools to either scout it easier or defend it easier.
On June 15 2013 17:34 Absentia wrote: Some of the replies in this thread to the cloak banshee change are hiliarious. The unit has barely been used in HotS and both Protoss and Zerg have been given tools to either scout it easier or defend it easier.
I agree. If anything, the change is silly because it affects TvT more than it does PvT or ZvT.
Cloak Banshees have been irrelevant in TvP and TvZ for quite some time now. I really think a buff is a smart idea by Blizzard. Another change I would like to see is turrets not requiring an engineering bay.
I'd rather Blizzard nerfed Hellbats with the Transformation Servos upgrade as opposed to the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade in order to make it relevant, like require a Tech Lab in order to build Hellbats and then force Terrans to research Transformation Servos in order to double their Hellbat production from Hellions. Adding +12 bonus damage to Infernal Pre-Igniter just over values that upgrade so much.
On June 15 2013 17:34 Absentia wrote: Some of the replies in this thread to the cloak banshee change are hiliarious. The unit has barely been used in HotS and both Protoss and Zerg have been given tools to either scout it easier or defend it easier.
I agree. If anything, the change is silly because it affects TvT more than it does PvT or ZvT.
On June 15 2013 17:34 Absentia wrote: Some of the replies in this thread to the cloak banshee change are hiliarious. The unit has barely been used in HotS and both Protoss and Zerg have been given tools to either scout it easier or defend it easier.
I agree. If anything, the change is silly because it affects TvT more than it does PvT or ZvT.
I think thats the point, to change TvT.
The hellbat nerf yes, the banshee buff no:
Banshee Cloaking Field research cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100 Cloaking Field research time decreased from 110 seconds to 90. We don’t feel the overall strength of Terran is an issue at this point, and Terrans aren’t overperforming by any means, but we’d like to compensate the Hellbat nerf with another buff. While we’d like to see fewer Hellbat drops, we don’t want Terran to suffer because of it. Also, we think it would be cool for Terran players have a variety of harassment options. Whenever we saw awesome banshee usage in the past, those games were exciting to watch and we believe having a reduced cost for Banshee tech will allow Terran players to utilize them more easily.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
What a neat idea, and funnily just the way it´s done in the SC boardgame.
they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
Why you can't start with widow mines and turrets? Why you can't open like against oracle rush?
Teo meant that the banshee buff is not "being done to change TvT". not that he is against it, right?
I'm not, i don't think it's an issue in PvT and ZvT. What i was saying was, if they are going to give terrans a buff to compensate the hellbat nerf (and wether that's even needed is a whole other conversation), it's silly in my opinion to do something that changes TvT more than the other two matchups.
On June 15 2013 18:05 Tsubbi wrote: they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
Show me statistics please. Because this "55%" is just a fantasy of you.
On June 15 2013 18:05 Tsubbi wrote: they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
Show me statistics please. Because this "55%" is just a fantasy of you.
Pretty sure he is referring to aligulac, as anybody these days is, when bringing up stats. There TvZ is ~55% for the last three months. http://aligulac.com/reports/
I don't get all the qq about the Banshee. We barely see them anymore, and if we are going to have a chaotic-aggressive game (as Blizz wants) the Banshee is a vastly more entertaining unit then Hellbats. The more micro intensive units the better.
Yeah ! zerg are cool ! Nothing wrong for us at all ! No need to give us anything at all .... Fking fking hell ?!?! Lol
We have mutas ..... Only harassment and they cost a ton , long run by's are stopped by any player who knows how to make a wall with cannons or mines or bunkers ....
On June 15 2013 18:32 MrSourGit wrote: Yeah ! zerg are cool ! Nothing wrong for us at all ! No need to give us anything at all .... Fking fking hell ?!?! Lol
We have mutas ..... Only harassment and they cost a ton , long run by's are stopped by any player who knows how to make a wall with cannons or mines or bunkers ....
MAKE NYDUS USEFUL FFS
So true, the day where the nydus is not just a gambling tool, Sc2 will get even better.
On June 15 2013 18:05 Tsubbi wrote: they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
How are banshees being slightly buffed going to really affect zerg? You have anti air by proxy of having a queen and also spore crawlers don't require a building anymore (which I still don't agree with).
Yeah, Zerg harass options are just lack luster in my opinion. Yeah we got the muta but you need some of them to be effective and if you got a bunch of them a small misstep will blow them up, thors, spidermines, stimmed marines ... Dropping is also a bad option, because zerg units run around like retards and get stuck and don't have the burst dps of other units. Maybe we should be able to get an AI research option for our unit because the other races units seem to be much more intelligent. In my opinion they nydus worm should be a core zerg unit in the zerg arsenal because it would make games much more interesting with it. Nydus worm should be changed in a way to fit this role.
On June 15 2013 18:05 Tsubbi wrote: they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
How are banshees being slightly buffed going to really affect zerg? You have anti air by proxy of having a queen and also spore crawlers don't require a building anymore (which I still don't agree with).
Terran has a T1 counterall ground&air singlefire units unit (which I still don't agree with) and still people say that that buff is going to affect TvT... That's also how it will affect TvZ.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
On June 15 2013 18:05 Tsubbi wrote: they want to promote more early game options for terran, sorry but wtf is this? zerg has NOTHING new, nada zero niente and every game is just the same opening like in wol to minute 10
also winrates are in favor of terran already, this month is gonna be above 55% in tvz again and probably even higher
i know everyone and their mother hates wol broodlord infestor zerg but blizzard should stop their vendetta asap
Yes, early game zerg isn't terrifying enough to deal with for Protoss and Terran. I am not happy with my game therefore Blizzard is on a vendetta to ruin my fun.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Warpprism: still negative about it, but guess we will have to see how it turns out. Hellbat: feels like a bit of overnerf, but we certainly needed a small change to them. Howerver, if you take away the strongest thing about terran, a very weak race is left with only widdowmines (all other units are either on the same level or weaker than their similar unit for the other races or simply too easy to hardcounter). If you want to nerf the hellbat, a buff like the banshee one is a requirement! so overall i agree with this nerf, IF terran gets buffed in another way too. Banshee: not used very much these days, require much micro and once opponent chooses to counter (1/2 spore/turret/cannon) they are totally useless. That's why not many people take the risk anymore, while it gave some nice games in WoL. With reducing the cost of the cloaking, teching to banshee will be less of a commitment and can be used more often with less risk, unlike the current metagame where you can pretty much tap out if you make cloak banshee and see detection when you arrive at their base. Totally agree with the banshee buff! Also it's an alternative to hellbat drops, which have received alot of complaints recently. By buffing cloak banshee the amount of hellbat drops will reduce by themselves and even more with the hellbat nerf (as both of them require the starport, you will have to pick to either tech it and research clock, meaning no drops for this time, or make a medivac, disallowing the construction of techlab while making it and therefore not allowing banshee/cloak at the same time) . Looks like a great change!
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
Yeah sure, all those demands from zerg players we read everywhere that blizzard should buff the queen. Lol, you really have to come with something better.
Your point is as much true as saying "Terran does not have problems with countering mutalisks". Which may be true, but still doesn't mean that mutalisks aren't powerful in TvZ. Just because you can build spores and queens early on and be safe, doesn't mean that it is plainly reasonable to always have them or that they can guard everything. That's where cloakshees come into play.
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote: PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?
What, this nerfs early hellbat drops though.
I like the changes, Warp prism good, Hellbat is pretty good and Banshee could turn out good, depends if banshees become the go to unit.
Imagine you are a terran that doesn't want to play marine mine, and you prefer hellbat marine. This is nerfed and done. Meanwhile speedvac + hellbat harass is still possible, and will still do a shitton of damage.
This hellbat change is ONLY for drops in my eyes. You can upgrade the pre-igniter to put the damage back to before the balance test. You need to slow down and read before you go guns ablazin'
I don't know what people smoked to think you could go 1 gas cloakshee. With only one gas you can buy cloak at about 70% of the building time of your second banshee (6mn30 or so), so no you can't open fast cloak with only 1 gas even with the buff. It will allow for more powerful 1/1/1 though, as you'll have more gas to throw into tanks and stuff, but I don't think this buff is terribly game changing. It wasn't really needed either, I feel like a slight reduction of the banshee build time would have been better to promote its use.
The warp prism change is still pretty weird to me. I mean, I'm all for action packed games and harassment rather than deathballs, BUT protoss has the best f'in deathball in the damn game, so what if on top of that they can keep you at home while taking easy expands thanks to zoomzoomprism? Warp prism strategies are already pretty effective (Super i'm looking at you), protosses just don't like to use them for whatever reason (probably because most of them prefer to be defensive and focus on that). So I really feel it could be a game breaker in the hands of people like HerO or Rain...
The hellbat change is okay, +1 hellbat drops will still do the same as pre nerf drops, except in TvT which is kind of good I guess. They'll be worse in direct engagements early which is a good thing.
On June 15 2013 18:37 Qikz wrote: How are banshees being slightly buffed going to really affect zerg? You have anti air by proxy of having a queen and also spore crawlers don't require a building anymore (which I still don't agree with).
Terran has a T1 counterall ground&air singlefire units unit (which I still don't agree with) and still people say that that buff is going to affect TvT... That's also how it will affect TvZ.
That's not an accurate analysis of cloaked banshee in tvt vs tvz...
Banshees outrange marines and can 2 shot them, so that even a single banshee with good control can wither down early game marine count much easier than taking down queens.
That and this buff is more about cloak/detection. Sure, terrans get scan but it's temporary and can be baited by the banshee user. Build spore isn't ideal for zerg player either but one + inject queen can permanently shut down banshee harass on that mineral line.
Also another big difference is that zerg has the luxury (or curse depending on situation but in this case it helps them out imo) of having fewest building counts. Terran and protoss has to have multiple buildings which take much larger area, and cloaked banshee can harass those buildings (in terran's case, scvs that are building those buildings as well) instead of the mineral line, while zerg only has to worry about the mineral line.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
You also get a nerf to early game hellbat drops/pushes which actually exist in the current meta. If I was a zerg I would be very happy with this patch, but some people just have to find a reason to whine eh?
On June 15 2013 18:37 Qikz wrote: How are banshees being slightly buffed going to really affect zerg? You have anti air by proxy of having a queen and also spore crawlers don't require a building anymore (which I still don't agree with).
Terran has a T1 counterall ground&air singlefire units unit (which I still don't agree with) and still people say that that buff is going to affect TvT... That's also how it will affect TvZ.
That's not an accurate analysis of cloaked banshee in tvt vs tvz...
Banshees outrange marines and can 2 shot them, so that even a single banshee with good control can wither down early game marine count much easier than taking down queens.
That and this buff is more about cloak/detection. Sure, terrans get scan but it's temporary and can be baited by the banshee user. Build spore isn't ideal for zerg player either but one + inject queen can permanently shut down banshee harass on that mineral line.
Also another big difference is that zerg has the luxury (or curse depending on situation but in this case it helps them out imo) of having fewest building counts. Terran and protoss has to have multiple buildings which take much larger area, and cloaked banshee can harass those buildings (in terran's case, scvs that are building those buildings as well) instead of the mineral line, while zerg only has to worry about the mineral line.
Or was your post just parodying Qikz?
I was mainly parodying Qikz - as his argument doesn't make sense the way he phrases it. (plainly stating what zerg has, so I thought I'd plainly state what Terran has) Like, of course I can slap down banshee play with building 4spores and 4queens early and not building a third base - but it's overall not a good/flexible opening. And same goes for TvT, where you can slap down banshee play by doing something like rax-CC-rax-ebay and just spamming marines/turrets - but it is generally not a good opening.
From what we know, banshee's have been quite viable in TvZ and were basically the number one macro opening in the last year. And the only early on relevant change has been that you don't need an evochamber for spores anymore (125minerals+1larva cheaper). And now Terran may get a similar change with 100/100/20 cheaper cloak. Sounds like a quite fair exchange, if not even a slight buff to cloaked banshee play, relative to the time when banshees were already viable.
Hellbats nerf is stupid. It is stupid. It is just stupid. Banshee buff?! What's the problem with banshee? ... Idiots. Only idiots are in blizzard. The same idiots as always.
Once again story of WoL is back. Nerf terran, nerf terran to the ground! It is so overpowered!... OMG, fuck them all. Seriously. These people are just a bunch of freaking jerks.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
Don't buff the banshee, for the love of god blizzard. It already traded the wraiths ability to hit air for way more hitpoints and like twice the damage, lets have it chill at that. Hellbat change is really nice, dunno about the prism though.
On June 15 2013 20:35 Lorch wrote: Don't buff the banshee, for the love of god blizzard. It already traded the wraiths ability to hit air for way more hitpoints and like twice the damage, lets have it chill at that. Hellbat change is really nice, dunno about the prism though.
Banshees are pretty weak outside the opening and base trades. They're much weaker vs zerg now queens are more prevalent and spores are easier to come by. Still a more mid game upgrade like the limited linear splash thing from the campaign might be more in order than a slight cloackshee rush buff, this isn't broodwar, they aren't hardy units in a hots context. I still think late game mass hellbat drops are going to be a big problem. All in good changes, like them all.
These changes just look ridiculous... It almost feels like they're making random changes and keep their fingers crossed.
The only thing the banshee "buff" will do, is bring even more cheese in the lower leagues, while in the higher leagues, the banshee will still be as useless/useful (depending on how you see things) as it is now.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
nah, it's more because bio is way better than mech right now
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
nah, it's more because bio is way better than mech right now
Because Vipers make it really hard to make mech work. Also Vipers and the changed Ultra are the reasons that we don't see a lot of tanks anymore in TvZ. I think Zerg has a lot more 2/3 base options than Terran has to be honest.
Ahh, relief! I didn't really like the last balance comments from David Kim and yet suddenly these notes arrive.
Warp Prism change, definitely a better boost, if it truly needs one.
Hellbat change = yes, for certain; they will still be extremely strong once you get Infernal Pre-Igniter and strong before that.
Banshee cloaking field? I'll vote later. I'm not sure they need it but I don't think it would be too bad. Currently I think just reducing the cost and not the research time would be better though.
On June 15 2013 22:23 Aiobhill wrote: All three changes look fine in a vacuum. Aggragated they might shift PvT balance further in the direction of terrans. Still worth a try.
On June 15 2013 22:36 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Ahh, relief! I didn't really like the last balance comments from David Kim and yet suddenly these notes arrive.
Warp Prism change, definitely a better boost, if it truly needs one.
Hellbat change = yes, for certain; they will still be extremely strong once you get Infernal Pre-Igniter and strong before that.
Banshee cloaking field? I'll vote later. I'm not sure they need it but I don't think it would be too bad. Currently I think just reducing the cost and not the research time would be better though.
On June 15 2013 22:23 Aiobhill wrote: All three changes look fine in a vacuum. Aggragated they might shift PvT balance further in the direction of terrans. Still worth a try.
Sorry, but as a player who never drops hellbats, but makes them as a part of my army, hellbats are really not that strong. Muta ling bling just rolls over it .
I like all the changes especially the banshee buff. Since i'm a terran player i'll write a few words about that.
Banshee buff In WoL banshee opening was my favorite one (not all-in but cloak rush into expand) b/c it was aggressive, micro intensive and often led to fantastic low-eco, high micro and action games that were much better than passive tank-line standoffs.
In HotS it's so much easier to defend vs banshee opening (spores without evo chamber, better hydras for Z, mines for T, nexus shenanigans for P). But cloak banshee even in WoL was viable almost only in TvT and today thanks to reaper it is so much easier to scout such an opening and prepare appropriately.
I also agree that hellbat drops are too prevalent so they should be nerfed and instead Blizzard is giving us another harassment option. Sounds good to me.
i now understand where they're going with the warp prism buff, and i fully support it. i also fully support the hellbat change - i remember people in beta requesting this exact change, not only because it made sense, but also because the blue flame looked amazing with the hellbat. it's logical and pleasing to watch.
banshee buff, will do nothing but create a weird imbalance for early game terran - which they don't need. plus the banshee cloaking field hits at a reasonably balanced time.
blizz talks about all this "if it ain't broke don't fix it" jazz, but here they are considering touching one of the more balanced terran units in the early game. i hope the testing proves that the banshee doesn't need to be touched and is fine where it is.
I love how their at least trying things before patching them to live. The banshee buff is interesting if perhaps a tad overpowered. 1 gas banshee openings are now going to be a thing.
The only good news is now Hyperdub could bring back his 2port banshee build and roll face again LOL
The banshee change is a very interesting one. I have experimented trying to find the new BO with them and discovered that gas first is no more requiered for the cloak banshe!!! You can go easy for 13 gas, usual 2nd gas after the Factory and still got cloak banshee arriveind at your enemy base at 7:15 with the cloak done!!! Now it will be harder to predict if the enemy is going for cloak,hellions, hellbat, marines if you are not scaning at 6:30. This timing is called the "money scan" and almost every Pro does if he is not able to scout the enemy BO before(using reapers or the lack of Wall allows the SCV to get in the base). The gas first, dont make the banshee come earlier tan before.It hits the same timing, but you got more gas now to spend in other things like addons or maybe upgrades or other gas(tank) units...
Small balance changes..Yeah right. These are bullshit excuses..Terran doesn't overperform but we decide to nerf them because Innovation is too good. Protoss doesn't perform well at the highest levels but in reality next season of WCS Korea the least represented race is Terran and also let's not forget about PvProleague where 60% of the time you see only PvPs..David Kim will buff Protoss until they will win at least one GSL. I think this is a horrible approach to the game balance. It's only because Innovation 5-0d sOs...Now Proleague will be 80% PvPs and SKT1 will win it because it has the best (most) Protoses.
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
nah, it's more because bio is way better than mech right now
it's better for the fast players like Flash and Innovation. For slower players mech is more viable. Even MVP uses mech more often than before due to his wrist/neck hurt
On June 15 2013 18:40 Holy_AT wrote: Yeah, Zerg harass options are just lack luster in my opinion. Yeah we got the muta but you need some of them to be effective and if you got a bunch of them a small misstep will blow them up, thors, spidermines, stimmed marines ... Dropping is also a bad option, because zerg units run around like retards and get stuck and don't have the burst dps of other units. Maybe we should be able to get an AI research option for our unit because the other races units seem to be much more intelligent. In my opinion they nydus worm should be a core zerg unit in the zerg arsenal because it would make games much more interesting with it. Nydus worm should be changed in a way to fit this role.
Lackluster? As a zerg I completely disagree with this. Zerglings are fantastic at harass and cost basically nothing, Mutalisk are one of the fastest flying units in the game and can be easily massed, infestors can burrow and launch beachballs, roaches and burrow and pop up anywhere, overlords can drop banelings.. need I go on?
On June 15 2013 18:40 Holy_AT wrote: Yeah, Zerg harass options are just lack luster in my opinion. Yeah we got the muta but you need some of them to be effective and if you got a bunch of them a small misstep will blow them up, thors, spidermines, stimmed marines ... Dropping is also a bad option, because zerg units run around like retards and get stuck and don't have the burst dps of other units. Maybe we should be able to get an AI research option for our unit because the other races units seem to be much more intelligent. In my opinion they nydus worm should be a core zerg unit in the zerg arsenal because it would make games much more interesting with it. Nydus worm should be changed in a way to fit this role.
Lackluster? As a zerg I completely disagree with this. Zerglings are fantastic at harass and cost basically nothing, Mutalisk are one of the fastest flying units in the game and can be easily massed, infestors can burrow and launch beachballs, roaches and burrow and pop up anywhere, overlords can drop banelings.. need I go on?
just because something exists doesnt mean its usable. no pro uses burrowed infestors or roaches or ovidrop or nydus. its only lings and mutas that are used to harrass since well thats the only viable unit composition. nydus is too expensive, ovidrop is too slow (speedovis move with HT-speed....LOL). burrowed infestors or roaches would be usable if roach hydra or ling infestor would be viable...sadly it isnt on high level.
I like the adjustment to the warp prism, The hell bat change works for me because hellbat drops will still be a thing early but the delay to full power will help out. as for the banshee changes; yes to the cost, no to the time, we don't want banshees hitting earlier with cloak, but a cloak banshee harass that is not all-in will be good.
On June 16 2013 02:07 p14c wrote: Small balance changes..Yeah right. These are bullshit excuses..Terran doesn't overperform but we decide to nerf them because Innovation is too good. Protoss doesn't perform well at the highest levels but in reality next season of WCS Korea the least represented race is Terran and also let's not forget about PvProleague where 60% of the time you see only PvPs..David Kim will buff Protoss until they will win at least one GSL. I think this is a horrible approach to the game balance. It's only because Innovation 5-0d sOs...Now Proleague will be 80% PvPs and SKT1 will win it because it has the best (most) Protoses.
If you would actually look at Proleague stats you'll see that the winrates aren't overwhelmingly in favor of Protoss. There are simply so many Kespa Protoss that it looks bad. Hellbats need to be nerfed, look at their dominance in TvT and impending dominance on the non mirrors. Protoss IS performing poorly on the highest level, not just in Korea but in Europe.
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
On June 16 2013 04:43 Thor.Rush wrote: So now hellbats are going to be much worse in tvz and tvp, when it was only a TvT hellbat drop nerf that was needed..
why is "only a TvT hellbat drop nerf needed"? Hellbats are just as stupid in TvT as in TvZ and TvP. Go ahead and build a bunch of hellions and a viking and kite the hellbats all day. But somehow when Terran (pro-)players say that though there are possibilities to defend hellbats, the situation is stupid because how much easier it is to pull of hellbat drops than to stop them (like mouzIllusion in the last episode of meta) it's immidiatly valid. When Z/P (pro-)players say so, all we hear is "they are stopable, learn to deal with them".
Yeah, there is probably no need to patch them at all, because they are stopable by all races. That doesn't make Terran suffer more, just because they have the easy way out to just hellbat drop against hellbat drop and show the whole stupidity of those BOs. Learn to play or admit that they are stupidly easy to pull off and can just accidently win a game in 3seconds in any matchup.
With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
On June 15 2013 03:56 DifuntO wrote: Good,now every TvT will be Banshee vs Banshee.That's more fun than Hellbat vs Hellbat,right?
Yes because the player who goes Viking raven instead of banshee should be ahead. It is indeed a huge change of cost but I doubt it'll do much to tvt. You'll just end up seeing more "wings" builds where if they both go starport, it might not be both for banshee.
On June 15 2013 03:34 Plansix wrote: Sure, I will take it. I hate banshees with the white hot fire of 1000 suns, but we have so much detection now and the cannon, I don't mind a bit of a buff.
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
you can't load any form of summoned units (mule, IT, locust, changeling, broodling) into dropships or nydus worms. Nor uprooted spine crawlers or spore crawlers. Nor sieged tanks. Or a building archon. For the first category there is basically no solid explanation. Neither a real one for spines and spores (if they can walk and a thor, colossus or an ultralisk can load up... why not the crawlers?). Sieged tanks and building archons both probably lack the movement to enter a dropship - but then again, all of that stuff can be argued with beaming up and warping out/warping in and could work as well if they wanted to.
But apart from that, I think it is a terrible solution as well as way too much of a nerf.
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
you can't load any form of summoned units (mule, IT, locust, changeling, broodling) into dropships or nydus worms. Nor uprooted spine crawlers or spore crawlers. Nor sieged tanks. Or a building archon. For the first category there is basically no solid explanation. Neither a real one for spines and spores (if they can walk and a thor, colossus or an ultralisk can load up... why not the crawlers?). Sieged tanks and building archons both probably lack the movement to enter a dropship - but then again, all of that stuff can be argued with beaming up and warping out/warping in and could work as well if they wanted to.
But apart from that, I think it is a terrible solution as well as way too much of a nerf.
Or make them take 5 cargo space. So much options, and they took the wrong one.
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
you can't load any form of summoned units (mule, IT, locust, changeling, broodling) into dropships or nydus worms. Nor uprooted spine crawlers or spore crawlers. Nor sieged tanks. Or a building archon. For the first category there is basically no solid explanation. Neither a real one for spines and spores (if they can walk and a thor, colossus or an ultralisk can load up... why not the crawlers?). Sieged tanks and building archons both probably lack the movement to enter a dropship - but then again, all of that stuff can be argued with beaming up and warping out/warping in and could work as well if they wanted to.
But apart from that, I think it is a terrible solution as well as way too much of a nerf.
Or make them take 5 cargo space. So much options, and they took the wrong one.
They didn't even put that option in the editor, so I don't think they will ever consider designing a unit like that. All the cargo sizes have to be rectangles - and even those aren't all viable. You can only choose to make a unit 1, 2, 4 or 8 cargo. I guess, first and foremost it would look weird (how do you design a 5cargo picture in the current UI?) and be very hard to combine (what do you put into that dropship besides the 5supply? a marine and a hellion? - it would probably be very weird for anybody to play with, as there wasn't any multiplier of just one unit to fill up the drop, and you would have to produce weird unit combos to really use that cargo to its fullest)
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
you can't load any form of summoned units (mule, IT, locust, changeling, broodling) into dropships or nydus worms. Nor uprooted spine crawlers or spore crawlers. Nor sieged tanks. Or a building archon. For the first category there is basically no solid explanation. Neither a real one for spines and spores (if they can walk and a thor, colossus or an ultralisk can load up... why not the crawlers?). Sieged tanks and building archons both probably lack the movement to enter a dropship - but then again, all of that stuff can be argued with beaming up and warping out/warping in and could work as well if they wanted to.
But apart from that, I think it is a terrible solution as well as way too much of a nerf.
Or make them take 5 cargo space. So much options, and they took the wrong one.
They didn't even put that option in the editor, so I don't think they will ever consider designing a unit like that. All the cargo sizes have to be rectangles - and even those aren't all viable. You can only choose to make a unit 1, 2, 4 or 8 cargo. I guess, first and foremost it would look weird (how do you design a 5cargo picture in the current UI?) and be very hard to combine (what do you put into that dropship besides the 5supply? a marine and a hellion? - it would probably be very weird for anybody to play with, as there wasn't any multiplier of just one unit to fill up the drop, and you would have to produce weird unit combos to really use that cargo to its fullest)
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Design problem, and a warranted one. If you can load a thor into medivac, then don't you think it's a bit silly if you can't load Hellbats?
you can't load any form of summoned units (mule, IT, locust, changeling, broodling) into dropships or nydus worms. Nor uprooted spine crawlers or spore crawlers. Nor sieged tanks. Or a building archon. For the first category there is basically no solid explanation. Neither a real one for spines and spores (if they can walk and a thor, colossus or an ultralisk can load up... why not the crawlers?). Sieged tanks and building archons both probably lack the movement to enter a dropship - but then again, all of that stuff can be argued with beaming up and warping out/warping in and could work as well if they wanted to.
But apart from that, I think it is a terrible solution as well as way too much of a nerf.
Or make them take 5 cargo space. So much options, and they took the wrong one.
They didn't even put that option in the editor, so I don't think they will ever consider designing a unit like that. All the cargo sizes have to be rectangles - and even those aren't all viable. You can only choose to make a unit 1, 2, 4 or 8 cargo. I guess, first and foremost it would look weird (how do you design a 5cargo picture in the current UI?) and be very hard to combine (what do you put into that dropship besides the 5supply? a marine and a hellion? - it would probably be very weird for anybody to play with, as there wasn't any multiplier of just one unit to fill up the drop, and you would have to produce weird unit combos to really use that cargo to its fullest)
Okay, 6 cargo then.
well, that's the one rectangle <8 which they didn't put in either. I guess because 8 divided by 6 is not a natural number and therefore you can't load up a dropship solely with multiple such units.
kinda disappointing for Protoss recently: oracle buff denied, warp prism buff - almost denied. it seems that blizzard doesn't have clear idea what to do with Protoss.
I hope that in LOTV, warp gate will be removed and this race will finally become a solid one.
Dat banshee change nice. They have kinda gone exstinct in every other match up minus the odd TvT. I do love a good banshee build :3 Nothing beat the nada 1-1-1 opening into banshee into mass marine siege timing was yummy
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
You, along with blizzard seem to miss the fact that hellbats have already failed in their role of tanky healy mech unit. All the healing from the medivac really provides is increased, unnecessary resilience in drop harassment.
Removing the bio tag targets the units harassment potential in a much better way, and could actually be considered a buff in TvP when dealing with archons.
I think it is a missed opportunity caused by stubborn refusal to go back.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
That was never the problem. Hellbats need to be healed or they are worthless as front line units. They were designed to tank/kill zealots for both bio and mech.
The actual problem is hellbats drops require very little micro on the attacker, and too much for their opponent. Changing them to 3-shot workers gives the opponent significantly more time to react compared to 2-shots.
And if you want to bring up THAT argument, marines are men in heavy mechanical suits very much like hellbats. Attacks against a marine would damage their suit first. How do you suppose a medivac heals a marine's suit? By that logic medivacs shouldnt be able to heal any Terran unit. BTW are you some kind of expert on magical healing beams?
Blizzard puts out some changes to be TESTED, and instantly people are crying like its the end of the world, like always.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
You, along with blizzard seem to miss the fact that hellbats have already failed in their role of tanky healy mech unit.
Uh I literally just watched mech games during Dreamhack with lots of hellbats in the main army, against Protoss.
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
I feel like the Banshee change will affect TvT more than any other match up, and for that reason, I don't really like the change or see the need. The research time really doesn't need to change, and I'd be happy with a 150/150 cost.
The Banshee thing really kind of makes sense, as Z and P can get detection much easier than before (and when in the last year of WoL were Banshees outright winning games regularly?), but so much so that I'm not sure that it will really help in those match ups. For Terran mirror it will cause a gigantic shift in play, imo, as it's yet another aggressive opener that changes early threats in TvT whether it's gas first; 12rax 13/14/15 gas, etc.
To restate, Banshee usage fell off a lot vs Z and P towards the end of WoL. Then HotS made detection easier to get for Z and P, and while this change makes cloaked banshees more of a threat, it'll probably still be handled relatively easily by Z and P. TvT, on the other hand, has fairly large windows of having not many units in early game, while getting add-ons and often an in base CC.
However, this change is an overall positive. Banshees take more skill on the side of the attacker and aren't able to overwhelm 6 marines simply by dropping on top of them.
P.S. It would be really sick if you could get out cloaked banshees in TvT vs a marine/scv all-in, but I'm not sure that it's that fast. Of course, I'm not saying that your response to marine/scv would be fast cloaked banshees, but if people were going those builds blind, it could be quite amusing.
P.P.S. It would be really sick to get an Armory and reactored factory, then switch it back to a tech lab after being scouted, and get a thor (if you felt banshees were coming).
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
nah, it's more because bio is way better than mech right now
Because Vipers make it really hard to make mech work. Also Vipers and the changed Ultra are the reasons that we don't see a lot of tanks anymore in TvZ. I think Zerg has a lot more 2/3 base options than Terran has to be honest.
Changed ultras still do the same damage to tanks now as they did before.
Why does everyone think that terran HAVE to have 2 completely viable variants available to them with Mech and Bio? I have never understood the argument about needing mech to be completely viable by itself.
I like their idea though about nerfing hellbat while as the same time buffing banshee to help compensate. Although I think it might be too big of a change maybe 50 instead of 100 is better.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
I basically agree with this. Blizzard is careful about making changes to the metagame then out of the blue they want more banshees?
On June 16 2013 12:26 MrSnuffy wrote: Why does everyone think that terran HAVE to have 2 completely viable variants available to them with Mech and Bio? I have never understood the argument about needing mech to be completely viable by itself.
Because the Terran upgrade path is divided into vehicles and barracks. Unlike the PZ who are air/land and can continue to upgrade from the same building as long as the tech requirements are met as soon as the prior one is done.
A Terran who wishes to have ALL land units, such as marine and tanks, to have the same upgrade of 1/1 Must not only spend more and be significantly late due to having to spend on two upgrades to pursue (+1 bio & +1 mech Attack), build both armory AND engineering bay, the Terran is delayed because the armory is only available upon completion of the factory, equals more delays.
Just played a TvT on the normal ladder maps. Amazing how SCVs surrounding the Hellbats still resulted me in losing EVERYTHING in the early game. If Hellbat drop #1 with two Dropships designed to hit the main doesn't work, make 4 and drop them randomly! It'll work!
They have no clue what the hell they're doing. Banshee cloak change. Nrgh. 150/150 but the timing is going to be a huge huge error if they let it go through. Lets see what the warp prism change does. The quality of WoL could be called from the end of beta same with HoTS. There's a reason why the pimpest plays aren't as plentiful nor as pimp.
On June 16 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote: Just played a TvT on the normal ladder maps. Amazing how SCVs surrounding the Hellbats still resulted me in losing EVERYTHING in the early game. If Hellbat drop #1 with two Dropships designed to hit the main doesn't work, make 4 and drop them randomly! It'll work!
Get turrets and Vikings to kill the drop before it lands? Oh and scout your perimeter. If he can have Medivacs you can have Vikings ... two of them at least.
I think the Banshee change could turn out to be really positive, I like the idea of Terran having multiple, equally effective harass options- as opposed to "YOLO hellbat drops"
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
yeah you are right. "no pro uses it ever" was a bad argument. what i was trying to say is no pro uses roach hydra, ling infestor or SHs (vs MMMM + hellbat) or nydus or ovidrop or burrow moevement in a standard kind of way. standard doesnt mean it has to be used in every 2nd game but roach hydra is used like every 10-20th (in reality it maybe every 50th or so). game and the other stuff maybe every 100th-1000th game (not counting 2 base roach nydus all in since nydus needs to be a non-allin harrassment tool which zerg lacks a lot). so yeah it would be just more fun to watch and i also think to play for both T and Z if Z had more different viable compositions and harrassment options. if you are honest you know that pretty much every ZvT is muta or roach bane (semi) allin.
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
Well...Im only reading the first page of comments and I like the fact that we have new sc2 players apparently
Banshee will indeed affect TvT, but terrans can easily transition and adapt since its a mirror matchup, but it will also affect the other matchups - first banshee will arrive WITH cloak at the opponents base. Hellion banshee openers? Check. With a faster expo too.
On June 16 2013 15:06 Crownlol wrote: I think the Banshee change could turn out to be really positive, I like the idea of Terran having multiple, equally effective harass options- as opposed to "YOLO hellbat drops"
If any race has multiple equally effective harass options it's terran. The hellbat was an unnecessary cherry on the top.
On June 16 2013 16:30 Ambre wrote: Has anyone on this thread actually played the test map ?
I played quite a few games T (me) vs P with a clanmate. I was doing a gas first reactor hellion opener into cloak banshee (note, that build worked better cause he doesn't probe scout... his bad I guess). I also play mech TvP and used to play it in WoL where I used Banshees regularly. I definitely helps with this style. I never flat out killed him because he always had detection, but being able to harass somewhat (keeping the banshee alive at all costs) and then adding them into my army later seemed to work nicely.
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Yes! Lets replace Hellbats with Banshee rushes Warp Prisms everywhere, all those allins that will be created because of this buff.. T_T
Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Not being able to load them in seems a good idea balance wise, but not in terms of making the game authentic. You can load in a Thor but not a Hellbat, sounds rediculous!^^
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Yes! Lets replace Hellbats with Banshee rushes Warp Prisms everywhere, all those allins that will be created because of this buff.. T_T
Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Not being able to load them in seems a good idea balance wise, but not in terms of making the game authentic. You can load in a Thor but not a Hellbat, sounds rediculous!^^
I also dont think blizzard wants to get rid of the hellbat drops, they want to push it back slighty so a resonse can be made. countering hellbat drops with hellbat drops was getting kinda old anyway
On June 16 2013 08:38 DyEnasTy wrote: 100/100 on cloak cost is quite drastic from 200/200. Im thinking that 100/200 would be much better.
100/200 would not change anything, its the gas that hinders you not the minerals..
encouraging earlier ghost use would be something i'd like to see aswell, ghost transitions are not fluent at all
they need a building which serves no other purpose than the unit itself, and on top of that they need 2 farily expensive upgrades aswell if you compare that to the protoss/zerg counterpart both feel way more fitting in their tech route and offer different upgrades/units (t2 path and archons on protoss side aswell as t3 requirement, swarmhosts + upgrades on zergs)
maybe switch out the armory and ghost academy as a requirement for bio t2 upgrades - this would naturally sort out hellbat drops aswell, since ppl would have to build an academy for t2 and an armory for extra hellbats (or at least make the hellbat thing even costlier if you dont plan to play mech)
we prolly would see less hellbats and more ghosts and a way way better progression route if you want to rush bio upgrades with a single ebay. maybe even more diversal upgrade preferences, like 2-0 or 0-2 straight up, which itsself can lead to interesting meta changes
back on topic im fine with the hellbat nerf, banshee buff seams reasonable considering how many more detection is ingame aswell as better and cheaper static d
i dont like the warp prism buff at all, protoss 1 base play is already strong vs terran, and a speed buff will not really help vs zerg in the early stages anyway
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Which do you prefer ... - being harrassed by 1 Banshee OR - being harrassed by 2 Banshees?
With that reduction in cost you can get an additional Banshee for not that much more compared to now AND cloak arrives 20 seconds earlier.
---
Personally I am happy because Blizzards changes sound really ridiculous and will make the game more volatile. This might be enough for people to realize how badly the game is designed and that pushing sooo much for offense will make "random chance" decide games more than actual playing skill. The other option is that players will be pushed into "overdefending" against harrassment which doesnt come and then lose to the big attack at the front. It is a lose-lose design when it comes to quality, because you can hide stuff too easily on the maps which will favor chance more than skill.
The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So looking at TvP. my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
On June 16 2013 08:38 DyEnasTy wrote: 100/100 on cloak cost is quite drastic from 200/200. Im thinking that 100/200 would be much better.
100/200 would not change anything, its the gas that hinders you not the minerals..
encouraging earlier ghost use would be something i'd like to see aswell, ghost transitions are not fluent at all
they need a building which serves no other purpose than the unit itself, and on top of that they need 2 farily expensive upgrades aswell if you compare that to the protoss/zerg counterpart both feel way more fitting in their tech route and offer different upgrades/units (t2 path and archons on protoss side aswell as t3 requirement, swarmhosts + upgrades on zergs)
maybe switch out the armory and ghost academy as a requirement for bio t2 upgrades - this would naturally sort out hellbat drops aswell, since ppl would have to build an academy for t2 and an armory for extra hellbats (or at least make the hellbat thing even costlier if you dont plan to play mech)
we prolly would see less hellbats and more ghosts and a way way better progression route if you want to rush bio upgrades with a single ebay. maybe even more diversal upgrade preferences, like 2-0 or 0-2 straight up, which itsself can lead to interesting meta changes
back on topic im fine with the hellbat nerf, banshee buff seams reasonable considering how many more detection is ingame aswell as better and cheaper static d
i dont like the warp prism buff at all, protoss 1 base play is already strong vs terran, and a speed buff will not really help vs zerg in the early stages anyway
I really like you're Ghost Academy Suggestion, I would even go a step further and suggest that 2/2 mech and upward require a Fusion Core, to encourage more BC usage as well. However I want to correct you on the topic of upgrades. Basically as terran you will never, ever get 0-2, because bio with stim has such wonderful synergy with attack upgrades, and your bio has no particular synergy with armor upgrades. You also will never want to stay on just 1 engi bay against any race, because not getting armor upgrades will make your bio too squishy vs anything.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
How does that work exactly? You still need a factory and a starport. Cloack won't be out faster than usual.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
How does that work exactly? You still need a factory and a starport. Cloack won't be out faster than usual.
You're absolutely right =) I'm just establishing that the new cloak shouldn't turn out op. I'm assuming for my post that the current accumulated gas lines up just about perfectly with the cost of every completing building and with cloak, which it won't necessarily do as you said. In that case, one won't even be able to cut time off from the build with the lower cost.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
Ummmm your analysis of the maths is flawed. 640 is to build a banshee and fly it across the map. A faster cloak is only really a factor in the rush if you're proxying it next to their base, which is the strongest argument against shortening the research time, cheaper shouldn't really be a problem.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
Ummmm your analysis of the maths is flawed. 640 is to build a banshee and fly it across the map. A faster cloak is only really a factor in the rush if you're proxying it next to their base, which is the strongest argument against shortening the research time, cheaper shouldn't really be a problem.
The banshee has 50 sec to fly while cloak is finishing (60 sec build time vs. 110 sec research). It'll have little wasted time as a result. And my point gets through. I'm assuming just about ideal timings to eastablish that the new cloak won't be op.
Hellbats and banshees are both fine, they don't need changing. Both of these changes are pretty terrible. Cloak being cheaper does make sense, so there is no need to delay banshee now to get cloak first.
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Which do you prefer ... - being harrassed by 1 Banshee OR - being harrassed by 2 Banshees?
With that reduction in cost you can get an additional Banshee for not that much more compared to now AND cloak arrives 20 seconds earlier.
---
Personally I am happy because Blizzards changes sound really ridiculous and will make the game more volatile. This might be enough for people to realize how badly the game is designed and that pushing sooo much for offense will make "random chance" decide games more than actual playing skill. The other option is that players will be pushed into "overdefending" against harrassment which doesnt come and then lose to the big attack at the front. It is a lose-lose design when it comes to quality, because you can hide stuff too easily on the maps which will favor chance more than skill.
I see what you mean, but they havent been buffed to come out quicker. They wont be arriving faster to your base than they ever have before. They will just be able to cloak a bit faster.
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all...
-_-;;
This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
I like the banshee change, cause that opening wasnt used anymore by Ts. Against Z and P it should be ok (detection and nexcannon), in TvT we have to see how this change develops.
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all...
-_-;;
This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all...
-_-;;
This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
For the toss, I'd add that now they go robo way quicker after expand because they are simply safer with MSC, so it's better against banshee.
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all...
-_-;;
This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
apples and oranges... the banshee as a unit is not changed at all, while the queen was buffed by a tremendous amount, the only thing that can happen now is a faster and cheaper cloak, meaning all the opponent has to account for is faster detection and antiair, that should pose no problem at all... zerg can get a spore each base and has queens, protoss has more techpathes with detection now, and terran can have a turret and a viking ready so he desires.
On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote: So where are the options for zerg to harass?
if you go ling bane muta all those units can harrass. if you go anything else...no harrass possible sadly nydus, ovidrop (HT-speed lol), burrowed roaches and infestors arent viable harrass at all and not used by pros therefore (at least not in a standard way like WP and medivacs). hopefully blizz will realize this soon since it would add a lot of fun to playing Z.
On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote: So where are the options for zerg to harass?
Right up there with tech switch options for terrans and worker production for protoss. Having different playstyles is kinda sorta the point of having different races.
I think all these changes are completely fine and reasonable. The banshee change might be in the low end though, as have been pointed out. 150/150 90s would be fine imo, or 100/100 110s, but both is a bit too much.
I really would like to see more banshee play, since that unit hasn't been produced since medivac/hellbat became a thing. And controlling banshees are a hell of a lot harder than controlling a hellbat drop.
Warp Prism looks really nice currently, hopefully we will see more protoss harass after this. No one will ever get the Gravitic Drive (WP speed) though until protoss very late-game. If protoss all-ins turns out to be too strong with the new warp prism, theres always the possibility to disable warp-in with the WP, until Gravitic Drive has been researched.
On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote: Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground.
There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
On June 16 2013 05:36 Decendos wrote: game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable.
Irrelevant, burrow harass can be used against bio too. See for instance Bunny vs Leenock, Star Station, Up & Down (burrowed roaches) or MMA vs YuGioh, Whirlwind, ATC (burrowed infests).
game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
Then check Maru vs RagnaroK, Star Station, GSTL or Bogus vs EffOrt, Naro Station, SPL to find more macro-oriented Nydus builds. I have absolutely no idea why every Zerg and their mother comes here complaining about Nydus when you can get tons of cheap wins with 2-bases Roaches Nydus if Terran isn't super vigilant about those. Not everything has to be viable as a super fancy harass stuff, you know. Nydus has some use, for instance speeding up the traveling process for Swarm hosts (e. g. Bogus vs Action, Korhal Floating Island, SPL or, for a ZvP variant, TLO vs TaiLS (?), Bel'shir Vestige, ATC) on top of the aforementioned pressure/all-ins uses.
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
Lings/banes/mutas isn't the only viable midgame composition. Check the MMA vs YuGiOh game listed above to see that other things can work. Roaches/Hydras isn't as efficient, true, but it can be (somewhat) decent if played right, i. e. hitting the right timing(s) and having the right transition(s).
On June 17 2013 02:17 Xequecal wrote: If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC.
Except (a) we're in June 2013 and everyone is playing HotS and (b) neither Metalopolis or XNC are part of the current map pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again.
No. You understood nothing about the reasons the 1-1-1 could be succesful if you think that. The 1-1-1 could work because, among others, (a) Protoss were forced to play 3gR after their expand to be safe against all agressive Terran options, which means that (b) they generally could not get much tech out (especially if they had suffered some damage from the initial harassment phase) and could not or rarely use things like an early Forge for +1 armor or a quick Twilight to search Charge before the Marines/Tanks attack hit. Is this still the case now? No. This means 1-1-1 could now meet 1-0-0 Zealots (63 Marines hits to kill one under Guardian Shield, have fun), or several Oracles (which absolutely massacre unupgraded Marines), and the classic 5gR Immortals answer would be vastly improved by (a) the earlier robo and (b) the fact MSC can cast 2 Time Warps to prevent Marine micro, or (c) simply the fact the Nexus would now be able to single-handedly prevent the progression of the push (no way to build a Bunker or position a Tank in its range). So no, 1-1-1 would not come back.
The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things.
Plus Terran can build 10 of them at once from their Command Centers, so it's unbelievably OP. This comparison in a vacuum makes zero sense and you even wrote why yourself in your next sentences, so why do you even draw it in the first place?
On June 17 2013 02:20 Uni1987 wrote: Baneling drop... That's hilarious, do you make up these jokes yourself?
Watch the Bogus vs Action game above, then do come back telling us where the hilarity lies.
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
Terran suffering??? they still got marines and widow mines drop! not to mention hellions... it was the wings of Zerg and now it is the Heart of Terran Drops
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
really great idea! might lead to more banshee openings in tvp now that nexus cannon has pretty much killed off early cloak harass in that matchup
Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
On June 17 2013 06:03 Snowbear wrote: Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
Any advice? I'm REALLY worried about this..
No, if you move out, warp ins will be exactly the same as they are now (not affected by speed) and turrets will still do the exact same thing as they do now. Nothing will change regarding your worries.
On June 17 2013 06:03 Snowbear wrote: Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
On June 17 2013 06:03 Snowbear wrote: Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
Any advice? I'm REALLY worried about this..
No, if you move out, warp ins will be exactly the same as they are now (not affected by speed) and turrets will still do the exact same thing as they do now. Nothing will change regarding your worries.
Except you won't be able to reliably kill said Prism by chasing him with a single Viking (Turrets are irrelevant since you have no minerals for complete Turrets rings, and Prisms can bypass the 1-2 you make), which does change everything.
On June 17 2013 06:03 Snowbear wrote: Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
Any advice? I'm REALLY worried about this..
No, if you move out, warp ins will be exactly the same as they are now (not affected by speed) and turrets will still do the exact same thing as they do now. Nothing will change regarding your worries.
Except you won't be able to reliably kill said Prism by chasing him with a single Viking (Turrets are irrelevant since you have no minerals for complete Turrets rings, and Prisms can bypass the 1-2 you make), which does change everything.
Yeah indeed. I've never been so worried about a buff as this one.
What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future.
Personally I never thought that the hellbat was the problem, but the high mobility of the medivac boost. Besides if you nerf something because it is considered too strong then you do not need to buff something else. You only buff something else if you think that it will make the race overall weaker. In this case there is the upgrade cost and research time of preigniter to make hellbat drops as effective as before. Which is perfect is ideal since espcially TvT it is the timing when you get hellbat drops that was scary. To make the first drop weaker and not something that always made some damage to something that can potentially deal damage is the way to go. There is no other "equalizing" buff incured imo. Sidenote, Hellion banshee anyone?
With that said the warp prism buff seem fine. I like that change when I am playing protoss and getting speed prism I always think that they are too slow. That they had same speed as viking when upgraded make no sense.
i dont agree with the hellbat nerf. not only does it nerf drops but it nerfs any kind of early-mid game hellbat play which will make terran even more stagnant in the strategies they can choose to put pressure on.
new cloak change will be nice against z/p since they are pretty much worthless right now, but might make tvt a little more unstable(but im fine with that since hellbat is getting nerfed)
I agree with everything except the decrease in research time for cloak(cost reduction is fine). Reducing the cost of the blue flame upgrade makes more sense but I guess they want to see more Banshees.
On June 17 2013 10:36 Sabu113 wrote: Just found out that mines go through hardened shield... o.O is Wtf?
WTF
What's the point of immortal shields then? Holy crap. Is that a bug?
it is not a bug. it bypasses hardened shields because the mine uses a spell, not an attack.
Thanks. It's kinda unintuitive considering that it's a simple smash unlike the ticks of storm or fungal. Holy crap. Did not realise that.
Don't know how I feel about it. hmn. No immortal mine clearing anyway.
For what it's worth, the same is true if you nuke immortals. The nuclear launch doesn't get reduced to 10 damage, because Tactical Nuke is a spell, not an attack
On June 17 2013 07:19 cerebralz wrote: What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future.
They're also saying protoss lacks harass options, which is weird. They now have the phoenix, oracle, and blink stalkers, on top of the warp prism. If anything protoss has great harassment tools and poor front line units. Flat out, I've always considered stalkers and colossus to be pisspoor substitutes for dragoons and reavers. Stalkers cost more than marauders/roaches and do much less damage. Without the reaver, protoss is the only race that does not have a unit that can instantly neutralize large amounts of front line infantry like siege tanks and banelings can do. Psi storm is the closest thing they have to that, and psi storm was nerfed pretty hard in SC2 so it's easy to dodge.
So what happens is protoss can't ever push out until they've built enough colossus to one-shot or two-shot enemy infantry and when they do push out it's a big game of protect the colossus while it slowly deals out its damage.
Zerg has the opposite problem, really great front line units and poor harassment options. Aside from mutalisks how is Zerg supposed to harass a main base? Contaminate? lol? So really, they're going about this whole thing backwards.
On June 17 2013 07:19 cerebralz wrote: What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future.
They're also saying protoss lacks harass options, which is weird. They now have the phoenix, oracle, and blink stalkers, on top of the warp prism. If anything protoss has great harassment tools and poor front line units. Flat out, I've always considered stalkers and colossus to be pisspoor substitutes for dragoons and reavers. Stalkers cost more than marauders/roaches and do much less damage. Without the reaver, protoss is the only race that does not have a unit that can instantly neutralize large amounts of front line infantry like siege tanks and banelings can do. Psi storm is the closest thing they have to that, and psi storm was nerfed pretty hard in SC2 so it's easy to dodge.
So what happens is protoss can't ever push out until they've built enough colossus to one-shot or two-shot enemy infantry and when they do push out it's a big game of protect the colossus while it slowly deals out its damage.
Zerg has the opposite problem, really great front line units and poor harassment options. Aside from mutalisks how is Zerg supposed to harass a main base? Contaminate? lol? So really, they're going about this whole thing backwards.
I hope we will have Raptors for Zergling mutation!!! (in LOV of course)
Anyway, I think that is one of the characteristic of Zerg. It lacks the harassment that bypasses the defence (e.g. Muta and drops) so have to run into the main army (They are also meant to utilize burrow/burrows move according to the Starcraft cinematic scenes). I'm not saying that the current harrassment options for Zergs are good but I think it is their race design: Mass, cheap and relatively less functional units.
On June 17 2013 07:19 cerebralz wrote: What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future.
They're also saying protoss lacks harass options, which is weird. They now have the phoenix, oracle, and blink stalkers, on top of the warp prism. If anything protoss has great harassment tools and poor front line units. Flat out, I've always considered stalkers and colossus to be pisspoor substitutes for dragoons and reavers. Stalkers cost more than marauders/roaches and do much less damage. Without the reaver, protoss is the only race that does not have a unit that can instantly neutralize large amounts of front line infantry like siege tanks and banelings can do. Psi storm is the closest thing they have to that, and psi storm was nerfed pretty hard in SC2 so it's easy to dodge.
So what happens is protoss can't ever push out until they've built enough colossus to one-shot or two-shot enemy infantry and when they do push out it's a big game of protect the colossus while it slowly deals out its damage.
Zerg has the opposite problem, really great front line units and poor harassment options. Aside from mutalisks how is Zerg supposed to harass a main base? Contaminate? lol? So really, they're going about this whole thing backwards.
Great harassment tools... What is this I don't even...
Phoenix = shut down by a single static defensive structure. Same with oracles. Blink stalkers have horrid DPS and are needed with your army to help defend colossi. Warp prisms are extremely slow, take time to phase in and out, and the units they harass with are nowhere near as strong as marines and marauders.
On June 17 2013 07:19 cerebralz wrote: What I don't understand is that if they're saying "we want Terran to have more harass options" why does zerg have so few harass options? The only thing that i can do early is attack the front, which is retarded 90% of the time or just all in.
I would have been ok with hellbats as they are if they changed the attack pattern a la reavers, with the cooldown starting as soon as the unit is dropped.
The other changes are /meh. I foresee a lot more auto losses to cloaked banshees in my future.
They're also saying protoss lacks harass options, which is weird. They now have the phoenix, oracle, and blink stalkers, on top of the warp prism. If anything protoss has great harassment tools and poor front line units. Flat out, I've always considered stalkers and colossus to be pisspoor substitutes for dragoons and reavers. Stalkers cost more than marauders/roaches and do much less damage. Without the reaver, protoss is the only race that does not have a unit that can instantly neutralize large amounts of front line infantry like siege tanks and banelings can do. Psi storm is the closest thing they have to that, and psi storm was nerfed pretty hard in SC2 so it's easy to dodge.
So what happens is protoss can't ever push out until they've built enough colossus to one-shot or two-shot enemy infantry and when they do push out it's a big game of protect the colossus while it slowly deals out its damage.
Zerg has the opposite problem, really great front line units and poor harassment options. Aside from mutalisks how is Zerg supposed to harass a main base? Contaminate? lol? So really, they're going about this whole thing backwards.
Great harassment tools... What is this I don't even...
Phoenix = shut down by a single static defensive structure. Same with oracles. Blink stalkers have horrid DPS and are needed with your army to help defend colossi. Warp prisms are extremely slow, take time to phase in and out, and the units they harass with are nowhere near as strong as marines and marauders.
Yep. I don't even get the description that Oracle was meant to a strong harassment unit. lol (well entomb/cloakin field was way op...). I hope oracle was a pure caster with some other 'time controlling' abilities! Quote: "Oracle pilots, as these brilliant individuals hail from an order of young dark templar dedicated to understanding--and controlling--time itself" What?
On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote: Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground.
There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
I lost to a 1-1-1 not too long ago on Neo Planet. PDD cancels out Nexus Cannon... and Siege Mode is free now. This Banshee buff might help make it even stronger.
On June 17 2013 12:45 Wingblade wrote: Great harassment tools... What is this I don't even...
Phoenix = shut down by a single static defensive structure. Same with oracles. Blink stalkers have horrid DPS and are needed with your army to help defend colossi. Warp prisms are extremely slow, take time to phase in and out, and the units they harass with are nowhere near as strong as marines and marauders.
What the... So if you build 4 phoenix and see 1 spore crawler in a mineral line you just give up? I'm not sure how you're using phoenix but when I open phoenix I almost always manage to immediately use up all their lift energy on drones and queens. If I don't it's usually because I don't have enough apm to go around. If I continue to mass phoenix then they can literally just sit there and lol at one spore while they lift and kill every worker in the base. In many ways it's easier to harass with phoenix rather than muta because they have greater speed, more HP, longer range, higher damage versus workers, and you don't have to shift queue workers when they are under fire.
Oracles definitely are vulnerable to turrets but are almost always devastating when unscouted. Besides think about what you're saying. How broken would this game be if banshees/mutas/phoenix could kill turrets 1v1? As for blink stalkers watch HuK's stream to see how he harasses terran armies with them sometime.
On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote: Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground.
There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
On June 17 2013 08:03 Patate wrote: Talk about promoting cheesy play. If anything, all upgrades should cost more and should take more time, not the opposite..
Nah ... you dont get it. Blizzard is on the "more aggression at all cost" trip. They dont care if the game gets more and more luck based, because "more explosions and faster games are good, right"? The sad part is that people dont realize this problem more and it can only be solved by Blizzard going totally wild and "balancing" the game into a totally random game which no one wants to play and watch anymore.
Blizzard fails to realize that you get more aggression if you reduce the risk of losing. Protoss for example risk losing large chunks of their army if they poke with Stalkers into enemy bases. Why? Because the absolutely ridiculous overproduction of units in the game ... which results in no chance of escaping from a handful of Zerglings or Marines once a certain production capacity is reached. 1 Stalker against 3 Marines is fair and the Stalker can win this with good micro, BUT there will be a lot more Marines coming in a short period of time and due to the "Marine dps = Stalker dps" (roughly) you get an absolute explosion of total army dps for the Marines because they are all moving perfectly and get in range almost instantly. This could be countered by adding forced unit spreading instead of forced unit clumping to the game ...
Harrassment units / tactics are only used because they offer a relatively small risk and a potentially huge reward. The same can not be said for regular army engagements because of the super tight formation and gigantic numbers of units involved. This increases the kill speed to ludicrous amounts and means that as soon as you engage stuff dies. Thus people wait and wait until they reach the "natural limit" of 200 supply before attacking.
As I have said many times before ... we really need a reduced unit density to get more engagements, because then each engagement is not "final" and due to the slower kill speed you can actually use your skill to influence the outcome by microing individual units back/burrow (to regenerate shields for example). With the huge numbers in the engagements we have now it isnt really possible and reproducing units is easier anyways since you have the capability and the economy for it.
They seem like reasonable balance changes to me, I for one am excited.
I've only very rarely gotten the cloak on the banshee in my sc2 career because the investment is so gigantic. Banshee's are fun to play and watch. And Banshee harrass will be shut down with viking raven and two turrets, unlike hellbat drops which will do damage if you don't leave a lot of units in your mineral line.
I can't believe people are already complaining about a banshee buff when it hasn't even been tested yet. The hellbats need changing, I totally support that, they're too strong.
The reaper isn't a harrass unit, it's a scouting unit. The banshee is no different to the oracle. The terrans main harrass unit should be the banshee. DT shrine was made cheaper too, so why not the banshee?
The 1-1-1 is a strong build. It's an all-in build. Much like one base blink stalkers The terran has to sack his expo when it happens so why should the protoss be able to defend 2 base against a 1 base terran build?
Oh right, protoss needs to comfortable get into the late game where even pro gaming terrans have a 30% winrate past 20 minutes.
As a toss player, I dont see any issue with the banshee cloak research buff, if anything, it seems like it still wont promote banshee play against toss, since mine drop / hellbat drops are imo still far superior and isnt really a huge commitment, as opposed to banshee play.
On the other hand, I fail to see why terran players are really worried about the warp prism buff. In all honesty, its a huge buff yes, but not against terran, rather against zerg. As a toss player myself, even with the buff, I dont really see myself using the warp prism against terran anyway (at a time where the speed buff matters)
Unlike zerg, terran dont take 3 bases fast, which means they wont be spread out. Defending a warp prism is honestly quite easy compared to medivac drops, because the units a toss can put inside really cant do much dmg. Stalkers are a joke, zealots are viable but they really dont do much dmg since they are slower than workers and cant chase after workers when you pull them away. Double immortal drop is the only one that can possibly do some damage at that stage of the game (tech labs / reactors etc) but its quite a big commitment, and it sucks up a lot of build time off the robo.
On the other hand, zergs tend to take a third against a 2 base toss very early, makes them spread thinner. They got queens and hatcheries that you can snipe, even if the drones run away, or even key tech buildings like a spire thats building if they are not careful.
If anything the banshee change will make protoss open stargate more often against gas openers now. But every standard protoss build involves 1 gate expand into something with detection anyway so I wouldn't say it affects the matchup much.
On June 17 2013 17:28 xokati wrote: Cheap banshee with range 6 vs more expensive Oracle with range 4.
The Banshee cost is totally unaffected by this. But nice trolling! And it's not like cloak was ever a problem to protoss or zerg. They need to get detection out soon anyway because of widow mines. So this change again only really effects TvT. And I agree, not in a good way!
Wow. I didn't see that one coming. Banshee's gonna get popular real fast. More aggressive harass with less risk. Faster reaper, faster banshee, and free siege to defend anything until air is out on the field. It's like asking zergs & protoss to either turtle more, or to all in more.
On June 17 2013 18:12 klup wrote: Banshee buff is too good atm. maybe 150 150 is fine. Just worried it will promote much more mech play over bio tank. Mech play is so boring
Why do people think this is the case? Mech requires so much more thought and it way more exciting than bio tank. The bio in bio tank is practically cannon fodder and is pointless. Watching bio a-move into tanks is incredibly boring too.
I think these changes make sense. I haven't seen many Banshees since HOTS came out, Hellbat drops were way more popular. I don't necessarily think the Banshee buff is a great idea, but I like that they're testing this.
On June 17 2013 18:18 Mista_Masta wrote: I think these changes make sense. I haven't seen many Banshees since HOTS came out, Hellbat drops were way more popular. I don't necessarily think the Banshee buff is a great idea, but I like that they're testing this.
Expensive units like the Banshee do not make sense in SC2 simply because they are killed too easily by many more units of lower cost. Thus Banshees are not part of an army unless the opponent has no anti-air, but once he switches they will die. The only refuge for them is to be used in harrassment, but as usual people pick the cheapest or most risk-free strategy to harrass.
On June 17 2013 18:43 Sabu113 wrote: Still in shock that the 75/75 reactorable mines bypass immortal shields.
They're not nukes. How-
Argh.
Well they're pretty much the only unit mech can get that actually does decent damage to shields, and immortals are immune to tanks so I think it's only fair.
I am just curious, will terran still add helbats into their bio deathball when they see a lot of chargelots in TvP if this change is implentment? We already rarely see mech in TvZ, may be still make helbats require blueflame upgrade but lower the cost like some posters have already suggested to make mech more effective?
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
warp prism play only changes early warp prisms plays a bit which will pretty much only boost some PvZ all-ins a little, that's it. For lategame it doesn't matter at all and PvT or PvP they are still very wonky, just because there are not really any good units to drop anyway (plus nexus cannon still stomps it).
Hellbat nerf is too big, this is just an overnerf for TvT, which arguably makes it a little better, that simply removes mech from TvZ and TvP even more. Don't let other matchups suffer for a mirror fix really. I do feel a nerf for them was a bit neccesary but this is just too harsh especially since it's just difficult to get a techlab while you're adding your hellbats. A small medivac nerf makes much more sense or remove the ability to make hellbats directly but buff transformation servos a bit.
Banshee buff finally is just too big, banshee openings will really start to dominate TvT and become quite big in TvZ maybe even TvP with this. Banshee opening in TvT was always good until it got sort of replaced with hellbat drops being basically superior, nerfing hellbats hard while buffing banshee's will just make banshee opening a near must in TvT. You can do it off 1 gas now basically while expanding quickly, you are pretty much garanteed to at least equalize against a FE and you get scouting and you're safe at the same time. Buffing them a little is fine but 150/150 is enough, research time really doesn't need to be quicker either.
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.
Baneling carpet-bombing? Baneling landmines?
All you need is to kill the initial huge amount of Sentries and then grow much bigger in economy and just keep swarming everywhere with Zerglings and constantly threat an attack on the wall of the Protoss base. TLO vs Squirtle in DH Ro16, games 2 and 3.
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.
Baneling carpet-bombing? Baneling landmines?
All you need is to kill the initial huge amount of Sentries and then grow much bigger in economy and just keep swarming everywhere with Zerglings and constantly threat an attack on the wall of the Protoss base. TLO vs Squirtle in DH Ro16, games 2 and 3.
That's as good as in Wol. I'm not discussion if it's broken. I'm just correcting false things the person I quote said.
, that simply removes mech from TvZ and TvP even more
As a meching terran I can assure you it won't.
You still get the damage with Blue Flame anyway and if anything I feel blue flame hellions are better at harass than Hellbats are past the first 10 minutes and this will promote that upgrade again.
Banshi definetly needs a boost as they are pretty worthless in HOTS. I dont really think it effects PvT or PvZ all that much because of the changes in HOTs.
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldnt a single stargate out of Protoss pretty much hard counter a cloaked banshi even with the reduced costs? I think if you opened stargate you would be able to get your expand down a lot quicker than a terran who went cloak banshi and an Oracle + Phoenix would shut down the harass and allow your own harass. You could probably even cut the MSC and put that gas into tech.
On June 17 2013 13:59 _Search_ wrote: I'll start taking this sort of talk seriously when Protosses start admitting that immortal/sentry is in the exact same boat. It was never fixed. It's still totally broken.
You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon.
Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.
New hydras solve it.
uhh no, new hydra's do absolutely nothing against it.. hydra's are still crappy for defense they only got an upgrade for off-creep movement.. only change that helped against the soultrain between wol and hots are the change in maps and muta's really. Muta basetrading is a slightly better option now and the more open maps make it harder to perform the sentry-immortal allin
On June 17 2013 17:28 xokati wrote: Cheap banshee with range 6 vs more expensive Oracle with range 4.
Call us back when the possibility of a Banshee in your mineral line by 5'10 forces every single Protoss build to take this threat into account.
Every Protoss build does take this into account. More specifically, we take Widow Mines into account, which means every Protoss build either has an Oracle, Photon Cannons, or a fast Robo. Oracles are good units, don't get me wrong, and I have no problems with this Banshee buff, but Terran is in no way being unjustly pigeonholed by the possibility of an Oracle attack.
Also, Hydras do counter the Immortal all-in. They always did. The reason it's viable now is because going Hydra is a viable tech path, whereas before you pretty much would auto-lose if the Protoss just macroed up and killed you.
, that simply removes mech from TvZ and TvP even more
As a meching terran I can assure you it won't.
You still get the damage with Blue Flame anyway and if anything I feel blue flame hellions are better at harass than Hellbats are past the first 10 minutes and this will promote that upgrade again.
noone get's much hellions with mech nowadays, you are wasting money on blueflame and transformation serves if you do which are far better to spend on actually useful upgrades, medivacs etc. Blue flame hellions are ok for harass but at the moment you can just as well use medivacs. To use blueflame hellions you basically need to spend 300/300 since you also need the transformation upgrade then which is way too much, instead any decent mech player just only makes hellbats straight away and doesn't bother with hellions after the first few used in the opening... I've seen blueflame maybe twice in pro games (forGG) and never saw transformation servos, they are just shitty upgrades considering you can make hellbats right away and there is such little need for hellions when hellbat drops harass just as well basically. With mech you're on a clock because air transitions hurt you badly so you don't have time for marginally useful upgrades like blueflame. Now you will have to get it which makes mech even more unplayable in TvZ and TvP than it was..
Banshee buff is bad because Protoss has terrible anti-air. You'll never actually kill a banshee if it's controlled well. Then you are forced to go robo, build extra observers early, a cannon in each base if he commits to more than one banshee, and several stalkers which you would not want to ever make. Stalkers are terrible vs. T in the midgame... they put you so far behind on being able to take a 3rd.
Cheaper faster banshees basically does what hellbat drops do, but earlier and slightly less emphasis on cannons if they stop at one banshee. From the Innovation SoS games, we see that when Terran forces enough defense out of Protoss, the P cannot handle the front push after T gets on 3 bases.
Even David Kim admitted the banshee was already better than the DT in that state of the game interview.
On June 18 2013 04:59 RemrafGrez wrote: Banshee buff is bad because Protoss has terrible anti-air. You'll never actually kill a banshee if it's controlled well. Then you are forced to go robo, build extra observers early, a cannon in each base if he commits to more than one banshee, and several stalkers which you would not want to ever make. Stalkers are terrible vs. T in the midgame... they put you so far behind on being able to take a 3rd.
Cheaper faster banshees basically does what hellbat drops do, but earlier and slightly less emphasis on cannons if they stop at one banshee. From the Innovation SoS games, we see that when Terran forces enough defense out of Protoss, the P cannot handle the front push after T gets on 3 bases.
Even David Kim admitted the banshee was already better than the DT in that state of the game interview.
i forgive DK for saying this because it was a speed round and it's easy to not really give it much thought, but you have to be fucking delusional to actually think banshees are currently better than DTs.
Well, Banshees are not as useful for Terran as DTs are for Protoss. But that's because Terran has so many cheaper, harass options that are just as effective. DTs are one of only a few options for Protoss, so you see them more.
On June 18 2013 02:05 Shiori wrote: Every Protoss build does take this into account. More specifically, we take Widow Mines into account, which means every Protoss build either has an Oracle, Photon Cannons, or a fast Robo. Oracles are good units, don't get me wrong, and I have no problems with this Banshee buff, but Terran is in no way being unjustly pigeonholed by the possibility of an Oracle attack.
Also, Hydras do counter the Immortal all-in. They always did. The reason it's viable now is because going Hydra is a viable tech path, whereas before you pretty much would auto-lose if the Protoss just macroed up and killed you.
The thing is, banshees can run away from detection and widow mines can't. If you have an oracle against a banshee, you're now really behind because Terran can just stop at that 1 banshee and macro while you have to switch tech paths and get obs just in case he makes more, because that oracle can't detect forever.
A single cannon will also defend your minerals against a mine, you need two per base to protect against banshees.
The real issue is that anything that makes banshees semi-viable is a huge problem for Protoss because now they have to assume banshees are coming in every vs. Terran game they play.
On June 18 2013 02:05 Shiori wrote: Every Protoss build does take this into account. More specifically, we take Widow Mines into account, which means every Protoss build either has an Oracle, Photon Cannons, or a fast Robo. Oracles are good units, don't get me wrong, and I have no problems with this Banshee buff, but Terran is in no way being unjustly pigeonholed by the possibility of an Oracle attack.
Also, Hydras do counter the Immortal all-in. They always did. The reason it's viable now is because going Hydra is a viable tech path, whereas before you pretty much would auto-lose if the Protoss just macroed up and killed you.
The thing is, banshees can run away from detection and Widow mines can't. If you have an oracle against a banshee, you're now really behind because Terran can just stop at that 1 banshee and macro while you have to switch tech paths and get obs just in case he makes more, because that oracle can't detect forever.
A single cannon will also defend your minerals against a mine, you need two per base to protect against banshees.
I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
If Terran goes for the fast banshee instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If Protoss goes for the fast oracle instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If the Oracle defends the banshee but doesn't get to do damage, the game is probably pretty even.
(and the Oracle is really the most exotic choice to defend banshee harass)
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
I don't agree it's useless, but regardless, the stargate being "useless" has nothing to do with banshees or the cloak changes.
Also when Protoss go stargate vs Terran it usually comes down before the starport or at least comes down blind. You don't go stargate necessarily because you are responding to their starport, you do it because you chose initially to get it (probably to do oracle harass). Given that you have a stargate, in my opinion, you are in a better position if they DO go banshee than if they don't.
It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
People. I wonder many people are aware of this fact but this nerf will make transformation upgrade even more useless. (I have posted similar post under the thread Davies' comment on hellbat)
Now players must upgrade blue flame AND transformation servos to have full functional hellbat. which is not desirable for many players unless they have additional techlabs on factory to reduce research time. And the fact that transformation requires 4 seconds, it really does not benefits either hellbat or hellions in immediate use.
So, I propose two changes on Hellion/Hellbat Transformation
1. Remove the transformation upgrade and enable hellion transformation when the armory is built (so hellbat is no longer buildable)
OR
2. Remove the Bio tag for Hellbat but Transformation Servos now grants bio for Hellbat as well as transformation
On June 18 2013 13:27 Survivor61316 wrote: It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
Yeah, whats the deal Blizz?? Terran should have a mineral only, spam-able, aoe unit that slices through workers like butter!
On June 18 2013 13:27 Survivor61316 wrote: It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
Lol I don't even know if this post is serious or not. Nothing is supposed to be guaranteed when you do something in Starcraft, but "I can't do damage if my opponent defends correctly, and this is unacceptable!", really?
Why don't they just remove the Hellbat from the factory? It makes it so that the transformation upgrade is needed to "produce" Hellbats and delays the push / raises risk accordingly (the risk being the investment in the transformation upgrade and the delay being however long it takes to finish the research).
Also, I still don't understand why Hellbats need to be healed. Even without healing, they rip through Zealots and Lings. I don't see why the Zealot and Zergling are throw-away units while the Hellbat is not. It's also not like you can't still repair Hellbats for minerals only.
On June 18 2013 09:53 Rhuubarb wrote: I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend.
You're behind because stargate is worthless for you in this matchup beyond early harass, and if you're spending energy on detection you're not harassing with the oracle. Their starport, however, is very useful. So you've already gone down a dead-end tech path and now have to go down a different one before you can start macroing simply on the off chance that they could be producing more banshees. Terran on the other hand can drop a third CC and just macro their ass off the second they see that oracle.
If Terran goes for the fast banshee instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If Protoss goes for the fast oracle instead of the fast natural he is obligated to do at least a little bit of damage to break even. If the Oracle defends the banshee but doesn't get to do damage, the game is probably pretty even.
(and the Oracle is really the most exotic choice to defend banshee harass)
I always wonder if there would be an advantage to exchange "fast" with the word "massive" in your sentences ... and do it after being greedy, i.e. getting the third. Sure enough the third is a risky base to hold, but I always wonder why people insist upon taking the obvious third instead of an "out of the way" one.
Protoss cant really produce that many Stalkers (because they dont have that many Warp Gates) early on and often enough they opt to get Sentries first to gather energy for an attack. What would happen if you were to hit them with 4+ Banshees at the time they really start producing stuff and want to move out? The Banshees can kill a lot of workers and be useful for defense (they dont care about Forcefields and cliffs for example). All you would need to do if you use them defensively against the Protoss army is to have SCVs to repair them in battle and try to position them at the edge of the concave. General base defense has to consist of a lot of bunkers, maybe an extra barracks to block off instead of a depot and a Siege Tank or two. Against Zerg you really need to hide the fact that you are building Banshees or else the Spore Crawlers - which will be built in response - will ruin your day. Thus a Viking or two to scare off Overlords and thus faking out "traditinal" mech might be helpful. Siege Tanks and a solid wall are needed to defend your bases from any counter. Building the wall out of Barracks seems a sensible idea since they have more hit points than depots (many more Banelings are needed to bust them) AND are larger, which means more SCVs can repair them. With a few Siege Tanks behind that it should be safe enough.
For the Protoss it doesnt seem to be as easy against Terrans because their cheapest units shoots air, but since you need quite a lot of Marines you could probably annihilate them if you had enough Oracles. In addition to the real ones you need to send a hallucinated or two as well and before the Terran realizes that and scans he has lost a few Marines; if he scans early you could retreat until it runs out. Against Zerg there is the question of how many Oracles you need to kill a Queen fast enough to be worth it. Phoenix + Void Ray might be better for that since they could also attack Spore Crawlers which are emergency-built for long enough to kill them.
Banshees would be more interesting if they were better in the midgame. Blizzard is too obsessed with filling their game with cheese and all-ins.
And why not skip the pretense and just make the hellbats from the barracks? We could even change their name to something else... fire... firesomething. Firebirds? Firerodents?
Anyway, obviously the numbers provided are fakes: they chose those numbers to get a knee jerk reaction from the community, so that everyone would be happier when they implement a lesser version of said changes...
What would happen if you were to hit them with 4+ Banshees at the time they really start producing stuff and want to move out? The Banshees can kill a lot of workers
They cast planetary nexus and move out? Not to mention by the time he has 4 banshees a toss should have plenty of stalkers to kill them.
Now players must upgrade blue flame AND transformation servos to have full functional hellbat. which is not desirable for many players unless they have additional techlabs on factory to reduce research time. And the fact that transformation requires 4 seconds, it really does not benefits either hellbat or hellions in immediate use.
I do think transformation servo's is way too expensive currently. But if you research it right now, you also have to upgrade blue flame. Otherwise your hellions are without blue flame.
On June 18 2013 16:38 Inimic wrote: Anyway, obviously the numbers provided are fakes: they chose those numbers to get a knee jerk reaction from the community, so that everyone would be happier when they implement a lesser version of said changes...
What numbers are you talking about? Also, tinfoil hats are not in style any more.
The speed upgrade on the warp prism won't feel significant anymore, since the base speed has already been increased while the max upgraded speed remains the same. I think that if Blizzard is going to keep upgrades in the game (and they should!), those upgrades should feel significant.
Maybe they could combine warp prism and observer speed into the same upgrade. It would make sense for both flying robotics units to benefit from the same drive tech.
On June 19 2013 01:34 Jerom wrote: Theoratically speaking, wouldn't a stargate opening completely obliterate any banshee openings ?
Well yeah, one oracle and one pheonix shuts down banshees completely
The cheaper cloak would make it play out differently, though. Cloak is almost a 100% certainty with that kind of cost and research time (you could start the cloak after the banshee and have it fast enough, also, there's a possibility to go banshee off of 1 gas, meaning more potential AA). By using envision with the oracle, it kinda removes the ability to use it for harassment, too. If anything, changes to banshee like this will weaken stargate play against banshee by making banshee less of a commitment.
Interesting that so many care about the Banshee nerf. Seems to be the fear that a unit gets useful again and has to be taken into account again, so the game gets harder through variety.
On June 18 2013 13:27 Survivor61316 wrote: It takes 3 hellbats to one shot a worker now?? Thats pretty weak considering the investment of 500 minerals and 200 gas it would take to get those three hellbats to the base. And then you're not even guaranteed to get any worker kills, especially if they have defenses waiting for the drop to take place.
Yeah, whats the deal Blizz?? Terran should have a mineral only, spam-able, aoe unit that slices through workers like butter!
What EFermni said, but I'd like to add a point. Back in the days of BW, the zerg had a unit that fired in a line. It had to be burrowed to attack, though that also meant you needed detection, but it wasn't super fast. These units killed workers in two hits. Oh, but wait...they cost 125/125. What are hellions and hellbats again?
On June 19 2013 05:52 FeyFey wrote: Interesting that so many care about the Banshee nerf. Seems to be the fear that a unit gets useful again and has to be taken into account again, so the game gets harder through variety.
Well the sad part about the Banshee is that - apart from some extremely rare Sky-mech-terran applications - the unit is more or less useless as is every other air unit. Easy to use - through smartcast - Storm and Fungal have made sure of that; sadly they are necessary to be easy to use and chaincastable due to the high amount of units on the battlefield.
I would rather like for the Banshee to be as useless as it can be ... because some more people might ask themselves why the unit is useless. Having it "enabled for early harrassment" only like they are trying to do now is a waste of the unit. At least the Reaper is cheap and will get scouting done, but the Banshee can be a total waste of resources if your opponent prepares for it ... at least if players arent changing the tactic and only start harrassing when they have 3+ Banshees (or whatever is enough to overcome early defenses which were built to deal with one of them). With 3+ Banshees you could even start harrassing the enemy army, because detection on the battlefield or outside a base is a little more difficult to come by.
Still too early to say banshee is useless though. In wol banshee were used by mvp as a safe mech opening against any roach attack instead of a pure worker line harassment unit. It annoys zergs third along with hellion poke etc. That plus wasting fungal energy was also extremely important for mvp mech. Didn't gumiho use banshee old school wol style mech recently
On June 19 2013 23:57 ETisME wrote: Still too early to say banshee is useless though. In wol banshee were used by mvp as a safe mech opening against any roach attack instead of a pure worker line harassment unit. It annoys zergs third along with hellion poke etc. That plus wasting fungal energy was also extremely important for mvp mech. Didn't gumiho use banshee old school wol style mech recently
The point is there is no point in building lots of Banshees as part of your army composition. No Terran air unit really has a point of being part of the core army and Vikings are only "needed" when you want to get air superiority ... but since the Banshee cant shoot air it has no place there. The good old Wraith was a much better flyer IMO, because you still had a pitiful ground attack in addition to the air attack.
On June 19 2013 23:57 ETisME wrote: Still too early to say banshee is useless though. In wol banshee were used by mvp as a safe mech opening against any roach attack instead of a pure worker line harassment unit. It annoys zergs third along with hellion poke etc. That plus wasting fungal energy was also extremely important for mvp mech. Didn't gumiho use banshee old school wol style mech recently
The point is there is no point in building lots of Banshees as part of your army composition. No Terran air unit really has a point of being part of the core army and Vikings are only "needed" when you want to get air superiority ... but since the Banshee cant shoot air it has no place there. The good old Wraith was a much better flyer IMO, because you still had a pitiful ground attack in addition to the air attack.
Pitful? look at this
Part 1 Part 2
Wraith could cloak and had high air dps with some ground attack that still kills workers. Banshee have only ground attack with no air attack what so ever. No wonder overlord had detections back in BW.
If terran have wraith now, no one gonna play other races!
hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted.
Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines)
On July 01 2013 15:21 Honeybadger wrote: hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted.
Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines)
You cannot remove damage bonus against only workers. The change would have to affect zerglings and zealots by cutting down DPS by a third against light units.
Hellbat nerf seems fairly positive (workers killed in 3 shots instead of 2), but in my opinion the HP needs to be nerfed more than the damage. A hellbat being healed by a medivac needs like 8 marines to take down (estimate) and your marines need to be spread out.
I hate cloaked banshees too - Might be fun for spectators to see one banshee take out 15 workers, but it's not fun to play against.
Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much
On July 01 2013 16:18 Mongoose wrote: Hellbat nerf seems fairly positive (workers killed in 3 shots instead of 2), but in my opinion the HP needs to be nerfed more than the damage. A hellbat being healed by a medivac needs like 8 marines to take down (estimate) and your marines need to be spread out.
I hate cloaked banshees too - Might be fun for spectators to see one banshee take out 15 workers, but it's not fun to play against.
Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much
I think the problem is that you arent playing sc2 much, since what you say about warp prism pre-buff is outright wrong. Also the banshees would have a pretty direct counter in early ebays .. In WoL you would see alot of 1 rax expo vs cloak banshee. Sure the cost now favors the guy going for cloak, but i might add that the most used gas timings of the 1 rax fe was able to get out a viking + turrets in time-
On July 01 2013 15:21 Honeybadger wrote: hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted.
Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines)
The reason blizzard dont do nerfs like this is because its poor design to have a damage type which is really complicated. Im already kinda wierded out by the widow mine doing +35 to shields, this is without commenting on balance, but rather the design.
On July 01 2013 16:18 Mongoose wrote: Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much
That's because the change regarding warp prism is already live. So what you are seeing now (out running a viking) is after applying the buff in this patch note. They are not trying to make it go any faster than how fast it already goes.
I personally like hellbat change (whoohoo blue flame hellbats again!) It will make early drop less effective By the time they research blue flame, the opponent would have enough time to deal with it. But (as I have endlessly said) this would discourage transformation servo upgrade even further.
So I hope blizzard either remove this upgrade (just as beta) or make this upgrade viable. Terrans already have enough hardly-ever-useful upgrades.
On July 01 2013 16:18 Mongoose wrote: Hellbat nerf seems fairly positive (workers killed in 3 shots instead of 2), but in my opinion the HP needs to be nerfed more than the damage. A hellbat being healed by a medivac needs like 8 marines to take down (estimate) and your marines need to be spread out.
I hate cloaked banshees too - Might be fun for spectators to see one banshee take out 15 workers, but it's not fun to play against.
Warp prism buff - WTF? They're already really, really fast (can't even chase it with a viking). This further reinforces the fact that I won't be playing SC2 much
I think the problem is that you arent playing sc2 much, since what you say about warp prism pre-buff is outright wrong. Also the banshees would have a pretty direct counter in early ebays .. In WoL you would see alot of 1 rax expo vs cloak banshee. Sure the cost now favors the guy going for cloak, but i might add that the most used gas timings of the 1 rax fe was able to get out a viking + turrets in time-
On July 01 2013 15:21 Honeybadger wrote: hellbat nerf was preficted and done entirely wrong, also as predicted.
Remove the +12 vs workers. boom, unit balanced. making it do worthless damage in straight confrontations until blue flame comes out is just awful, and will severely limit lots of unique openings that rely on the hellbat as a frontline tank against zerglings and zealots. It'll no longer go toe to toe with those units, and thus, will start to be phased out. The only problem the unit has is the worker line drop, and keeping the +12 for everything EXCEPT workers (just make the blueflame add in the worker +12 if you want it) would keep the utility of the unit while removing it from the absurd forefront of drop priority (moving the priority back to widow mines and marines)
The reason blizzard dont do nerfs like this is because its poor design to have a damage type which is really complicated. Im already kinda wierded out by the widow mine doing +35 to shields, this is without commenting on balance, but rather the design.
Most of new hots units are cool but poorly designed (WM, Hellbat, Tempest, oracle perhaps?)
They are either recyled units from BW (Hellbat=better&no gas firebat from factory, Tempest=air attacking protoss Guardian) or just simply left with poor design because of constant changes in beta (Oracle- they should have time controlling ability according to their description. WM- it is not mine anymore! probably more close to static defence.)
Blizzard gave us some new units and I'm happy (not that every unit is balanced) to play with them. BETTER THAN NOTHING.
Quote, DK: "there is no imbalance in any level at the moment."
God I hate Blizzard. Terran's absurdly high winrate(late WOL zerg had 57% winrate when they were called OP. Now terran has 64% winrate. WTF?!) and their equally absurdly high stat of units.
remember warhound(basically unstoppable when combined with helbats), shredder(dps equal to storm and larger range, infinite lifespan), medivac heal boost(which makes a marauder to survive 26 seconds under full storm.).... if one of these made it into the final version of HOTS terran would have hit 95% winrate vs zerg or toss. I would have trashed those ideas the moment they were suggested if I were the developer.
I just don't trust Blizzard regarding their understanding of the game, given the list of ridiculous OP units they tried to introduce and their inabilty to grasp the imblance at the moment.
I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
On June 19 2013 05:52 FeyFey wrote: Interesting that so many care about the Banshee nerf. Seems to be the fear that a unit gets useful again and has to be taken into account again, so the game gets harder through variety.
Well the sad part about the Banshee is that - apart from some extremely rare Sky-mech-terran applications - the unit is more or less useless as is every other air unit. Easy to use - through smartcast - Storm and Fungal have made sure of that; sadly they are necessary to be easy to use and chaincastable due to the high amount of units on the battlefield.
I would rather like for the Banshee to be as useless as it can be ... because some more people might ask themselves why the unit is useless. Having it "enabled for early harrassment" only like they are trying to do now is a waste of the unit. At least the Reaper is cheap and will get scouting done, but the Banshee can be a total waste of resources if your opponent prepares for it ... at least if players arent changing the tactic and only start harrassing when they have 3+ Banshees (or whatever is enough to overcome early defenses which were built to deal with one of them). With 3+ Banshees you could even start harrassing the enemy army, because detection on the battlefield or outside a base is a little more difficult to come by.
Banshee, at least in TvZ, is not a waste of resources, it's not popular right know but it will come back when Hellbat will get nerf (we all know it will come someday) because it gives you map control while allowing you to be greedy. Not as greedy as we see these day with the 3 CC / 2 ebay off 4 marines until 11 minutes, but it's giving you map control and allows you to defend the various roach/ling bane all in and you can scout with it.
Quote, DK: "there is no imbalance in any level at the moment."
God I hate Blizzard. Terran's absurdly high winrate(late WOL zerg had 57% winrate when they were called OP. Now terran has 64% winrate. WTF?!) and their equally absurdly high stat of units.
remember warhound(basically unstoppable when combined with helbats), shredder(dps equal to storm and larger range, infinite lifespan), medivac heal boost(which makes a marauder to survive 26 seconds under full storm.).... if one of these made it into the final version of HOTS terran would have hit 95% winrate vs zerg or toss. I would have trashed those ideas the moment they were suggested if I were the developer.
I just don't trust Blizzard regarding their understanding of the game, given the list of ridiculous OP units they tried to introduce and their inabilty to grasp the imblance at the moment.
ps. sorry for double posting
.
Let the terran hunt begin! It's all imba right? Like in wol, right? Then blizzard nerfs terran and then we got a total year of pure zerg domination. Let's take a look at this "terran domination": http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues
Oh, it looks like terrans aren't dominating at all? So weird! I see more red and green then blue. I'm confused, can you please help me?
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
Also there was an enormous number of zergs in some of those tournaments like WCS season 2. There is nothing wrong with one race losing a lot more, if the initial distribution was so skewed. Ro32 was zerg dominated regarding distribution, Ro16 is much more evenly distributed. Zergs might have lost more, but there were more zergs as well.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
give me your source please?
I am on both korean/english forums and before Rain qualified, Terran had 11 game winsteak vs toss in Korea and it's been quite controversial as to how terran is overperforming at the highest level. honestly I'm surprsied by your win rates data and how people on TL don't even mention terran's winsteak, which makes me think protoss imba stat is probably including lower level leagues as well.
and I just copied/pasted from a thread in playxp.In korea, overall consensus seem to suggest that most fans don't consider Europe/America WCS results significant and they tend to ignore GSTL or deem it as a lower level proleauge due to Kespa players dominating in indivisual leagues, probably that's why the stat don't include some of leagues Koreans generally view as of 'lower level'. Most people's been complaining how Terran is overperforming in Korean forums.
so here it goes... using your website which seems accurate.
WCS 2013 Season 2 Korea Premier
PvT 5–9 (36%) PvZ 8–6 (57%) TvZ 8–1 (89%)
Terran absolutely crushing Z and P at the highest level WCS (up/down qualifier exlucded)
Proleague 2012-2013 Season 1 Round 6
PvT 11–12 (48%) PvZ 16–16 (50%) TvZ 9–6 (60%)
Terran still killing Z in the most recent proleauge
GSTL 2013 Season 1 Group Stage Week 13
PvT 1–4 (20%) PvZ 2–0 (100%) TvZ 2–1 (67%)
week 12
PvT 0–1 (0%) PvZ 1–2 (33%) TvZ 3–2 (60%)
week 11
PvT 3–1 (75%) PvZ 1–2 (33%) TvZ 2–1 (67%)
week 10
PvT 2–3 (40%) PvZ 1–0 (100%) TvZ 0–1 (0%)
I didn't cut WCS and Proleauge by 1 month but from these stats you can see that Terran is doing very well in the highest leagues of Korea.
I still don't know how one of above posters came up with P imba stat. I don't think including qualifiers count because there is a higher league format and unlike proleagues low-level progs can complete in qualifers and up/downs. They are code A and B level gamers.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Get it into your head ... SMALL SAMPLE SIZE (like yours) does NOT make a valid "statistic". The only thing you can do with that is shove it into the trash because it is NOT representative of the races. The skill of certain individuals, the "getting knocked out by lesser players" of certain other individuals shifts the balance in such a tiny community wildly around. There is also the "I didnt get to play against player X whom I can beat easily but rather met player Y who trashes me" part of any such tournament.
All your "statistics" prove nothing and are completely utterly worthless.
----
If you honestly want to "prove" something with a statistic you also need to work on your "presentation" of the data.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Get it into your head ... SMALL SAMPLE SIZE (like yours) does NOT make a valid "statistic". The only thing you can do with that is shove it into the trash because it is NOT representative of the races. The skill of certain individuals, the "getting knocked out by lesser players" of certain other individuals shifts the balance in such a tiny community wildly around. There is also the "I didnt get to play against player X whom I can beat easily but rather met player Y who trashes me" part of any such tournament.
All your "statistics" prove nothing and are completely utterly worthless.
----
If you honestly want to "prove" something with a statistic you also need to work on your "presentation" of the data.
well yes I copy/pasted and if the stat was flawed my opinion's premise was flawed to begin with. I did it again with the post before this. you can derive whatever conclusion you want yourself.
It would be nice if the people who want to nerf terran into the ground would find some kind of concensus. At one side you have the people who claim that only at the highest level people can counter the new terran units, so it is unbalanced for the 'normal' player (lets say everything from gold to masters). At the other hand you have people like highsis who claim it is unbalanced for only the top 30 or so players in the world. A completely arbitrary line only chosen so you can cherrypick statistically insignificant data of course. But which one is should we now be worried about? That it is unbalanced for everyone who isn't a pro, or that it is unbalanced for the top few players.
On July 05 2013 14:55 Sissors wrote: It would be nice if the people who want to nerf terran into the ground would find some kind of concensus. At one side you have the people who claim that only at the highest level people can counter the new terran units, so it is unbalanced for the 'normal' player (lets say everything from gold to masters). At the other hand you have people like highsis who claim it is unbalanced for only the top 30 or so players in the world. A completely arbitrary line only chosen so you can cherrypick statistically insignificant data of course. But which one is should we now be worried about? That it is unbalanced for everyone who isn't a pro, or that it is unbalanced for the top few players.
How's GSTL - Proleague - WCS premier 'arbritrary'? and I assure you, it's much more than 30 players, and
and there are leagues of difference between players from the above leauges and any other leagues. qualifier is basically code a, and up/down is equivalent to code b. foreign WCSs are much less competitive, so none of those results including foreign/qulaifer/up and down translate to the state of balance at the highest skill cap, and even if my stat doesn't indicate absoulte inbaance ,those over 50 or so games in each MU at least gives a hint of which race is overperforming these days at the highest level: terran.
So yes, DK has constantly stated that the balance should be centred on the highest level of play. If we are to discuss balance on that level, I think my data is much more accurate than anything that includes foreign scenes and code A/B level gamers.
Highsis, There are so few games in your sample size it's entirely meaningless. You're supposed to have that much variation! Try coin-flipping the same number of times per MU, do you get 50%? No, right. But the coin is obviously balanced. The variation is due to the fact that the sample needs to be larger.
You're reporting 3-2 as 60% imbalance towards TvZ, but that's nonsense. One more win by a Z, and it's perfect balance. 1 more win and it's ZvT imbalance! That makes no sense! In two days, given a few good ZvT's for someone, your entire data set can show ZvT imbalance because it only takes a few good games by a Z. Although, you won't have that in WCS Korea any time soon for the simple reason that Soulkey, Soo and Symbol are all in the same Ro16 group. All you can say so far about the Ro16 is that Supernova beat KangHo 2-0. Would I think that Supernova could do that to KangHo? Well, yes, he beat KangHo when they last met in September 2012, during the domination of Z against T.
I like the banshee change. Banshees are nothing like hellbats, with hellbats you can get lucky if your opponent sends workers the wrong way or doesn't react in time. Banshee is far more forgiving for the defender and takes a lot of micro and babysitting to be useful for the attacker.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
On July 05 2013 14:55 Sissors wrote: It would be nice if the people who want to nerf terran into the ground would find some kind of concensus. At one side you have the people who claim that only at the highest level people can counter the new terran units, so it is unbalanced for the 'normal' player (lets say everything from gold to masters). At the other hand you have people like highsis who claim it is unbalanced for only the top 30 or so players in the world. A completely arbitrary line only chosen so you can cherrypick statistically insignificant data of course. But which one is should we now be worried about? That it is unbalanced for everyone who isn't a pro, or that it is unbalanced for the top few players.
The point of view that its imbalanced for the normal player annoys me. Terran gets progressively less represented as you go up higher leagues - http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all That strongly suggests its actually harder to play terran.
On July 05 2013 15:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Highsis, There are so few games in your sample size it's entirely meaningless. You're supposed to have that much variation! Try coin-flipping the same number of times per MU, do you get 50%? No, right. But the coin is obviously balanced. The variation is due to the fact that the sample needs to be larger.
You're reporting 3-2 as 60% imbalance towards TvZ, but that's nonsense. One more win by a Z, and it's perfect balance. 1 more win and it's ZvT imbalance! That makes no sense! In two days, given a few good ZvT's for someone, your entire data set can show ZvT imbalance because it only takes a few good games by a Z. Although, you won't have that in WCS Korea any time soon for the simple reason that Soulkey, Soo and Symbol are all in the same Ro16 group. All you can say so far about the Ro16 is that Supernova beat KangHo 2-0. Would I think that Supernova could do that to KangHo? Well, yes, he beat KangHo when they last met in September 2012, during the domination of Z against T.
It's obviously true but the more data into account the more you're merging results and player of different caliber, and you washed out the information. Data of winrate like this are pointless to my opinion, because format (BO1/BO3/BO5), maps and player do play a huge role. And in the end, the question is alway to ask where do you stop your data, which player you take into account and which one you ignore.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
I Would like it if double hellbat was removed from reactors and only built on tech labs, then put back on the reactor when you research the transformation upgrade. Give a reason to upgrade it and puts quite a big investment on the player if the player decides he wants to invest in hellbats/hellbat drops.
I think it's pretty clear that the reason Terran does so well at the very tip top level is because for a while in both match ups they are just dropping and multitasking everywhere. This puts them in control of every game in the mid game, and lets players with better mechanics force mistakes out of the other player. These things are really difficult, and a good defense can beat pretty much anybody, but when innovation or flash is playing at their best they are almost impossible to beat. It kind of reminds me how in pro basketball, when a star player is shooting well, good offence always beats good deffence.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
I build statistical models for a living, I think you should show some humility. Basics of statistics, identify and remove anomalies FIRST even before any samples are collected. You won't learn this in statics 101 because most professors do not depend on the accuracy of their models for their rent money.
Where I come from, 300 sample size is THE MINIMUM before any analysis can begin.
All any pro needs to throw win ratios out of whack is an unfair advantage repeated over an extended period.
Which is why using average statistics without consideration of such factors will lead to bad decisions e.g. Queen buffs that massively affected Terran, eliminating an entire branch of harass because Zergs weren't using queens for anything but larvae duty.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
I build statistical models for a living, I think you should show some humility. Basics of statistics, identify and remove anomalies FIRST even before any samples are collected. You won't learn this in statics 101 because most professors do not depend on the accuracy of their models for their rent money.
Where I come from, 300 sample size is THE MINIMUM before any analysis can begin.
Quite frankly if highsis would have followed statistics 101 he wouldn't have made those claims in the first place, even in statistics 101 you learn something regarding significance of data.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
That is not necessarily true. You need to describe your sampling method as well. A large sample and its data may not mean anything if there is bias involved. Hence, a random sample (or a group of random samples) is much more important than a large one.
EDIT: Furthermore, I do not understand how you can ignore foreigners and Code A/B people when they can, and often do, contribute to the highest level of play
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
That is not necessarily true. You need to describe your sampling method as well. A large sample and its data may not mean anything if there is bias involved. Hence, a random sample (or a group of random samples) is much more important than a large one.
I think the point was that a larger same will always be more accurate than a small sample. You can't just assume the larger sample has bias, and hence the random smaller sample is better. If you have a larger random sample (with no bias), that is better than a small one of the same.. There is no case in which more data is a bad thing as long as it's equally accurate/useable. You can't just assume the larger data has bias and the smaller data doesn't. I think the point you were trying to make is that less data that unbiased is better than more data that is biased. That is usually true but that's not the point the other person was arguing. If both sets of data are equal on terms of accuracy, the larger set is better and more useful/accurate.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
You should take the hint if everyone is criticizing your claims and there's no-one rushing to your aid. I'll also add to criticism.
You said that you cannot take foreigners, Code A and Code B into account. But that doesn't correspond to your statistics which includes proleague and Code S. First of all, Code A feeds into Code S, and someone can play a Code S group, lose, but win the Code A match to return straight to Code S. Does that mean the player was significantly better in the Code S games, than in the Code A match. No.
Secondly, the proleague includes B-teamers (hello Bear) and foreigners (EG-Liquid guys), yet you included it into your sample, ignoring qualms people had with the format and maps used.
A small sample can be indicative of trends, but it might not be. For example, it's a true that you can exit poll a small proportion of the electorate to accurately predict the results of the elections that include significantly more people. Yet, even these can be false. On the other hand, it's not accurate to say that 3 T wins agains 2 zerg losses is indicative of anything except for random chance as the number of games is so small, it's extremely easy to add data and have the result be skewed in the opposite direction.
On July 05 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am confused, I thought the most recent winrates reported were pretty even across the board? I know what you posted is how it feels, but is it accurate?
its not accurate, he is totally bullshitting and cherry picking his data. This is Korea only win rates (international looks even more balanced)
Not "only PL RO 6, finals of WCS (all 6 matches of it), during raining days and only innovations" arbitrary picked data.
mine is stat of the highest level leagues from last 30 days or so
zerg/ protoss are not doing well at the top level
Learn to statistics. Your sample size is bad and you should feel bad. A proper sample size is to include ALL match ups since the last patch.
Also, Terran pros are insane. Hello, muthertrucking FLASH and INNOVATION?!!! A fair statistics will remove ALL TOP RACE Pros. That's because one star can bugger all the stats in the world. See Portugal soccer team's Cristian Ronaldo and Russian Chess teams.
Foreigners and code A/B level progamers don't represent balance at the highest level which is only relevant.
And pros at the very top represent the skillcap and potential that race has, which other pro gamers will eventually catch up. They shouldn't be excluded. if you ever watched BW, top players led to the imrpovement of their respective race.
Also about the sample size, you need to consider 'lengths' the data was collected from. ever since HOTS came out there must have been thousands of games that have been played between pros, and the on-screen games are the finest, best skill refined with countless practices and training. If for 3 months one race has been overperforming, that definitely indicate indicate something.
In addition, change in game strategy and trend makes it impossible to gain a data collectively representing the 'overal' balance because it shifts from time to time, so a compromise must be made as well as in defining the range of the highest level group.
If one player wins 9 games out of 10 you could still say that he was just lucky because there are only 10 games sample size, but it's more feasible to believe he is actually playing better than other players at the moment.
Larger sample size will provide more accurate answers, but even with smaller sample size you can get the flow of the balance.
And last for the love of mankind stop calling me ignorant or yelling me to learn. Some comments are unnecessarily aggressive, much more so than your average TL comments.
That is not necessarily true. You need to describe your sampling method as well. A large sample and its data may not mean anything if there is bias involved. Hence, a random sample (or a group of random samples) is much more important than a large one.
I think the point was that a larger same will always be more accurate than a small sample. You can't just assume the larger sample has bias, and hence the random smaller sample is better. If you have a larger random sample (with no bias), that is better than a small one of the same.. There is no case in which more data is a bad thing as long as it's equally accurate/useable. You can't just assume the larger data has bias and the smaller data doesn't. I think the point you were trying to make is that less data that unbiased is better than more data that is biased. That is usually true but that's not the point the other person was arguing. If both sets of data are equal on terms of accuracy, the larger set is better and more useful/accurate.
What the hell are you talking about? My point was that you need to state your sampling method if any conclusion you draw from the data is to be considered accurate. I'm not assuming that large data is always biased compared to a small one. That is just an example.
EPT
. This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
feels good, im very worried about the future of tvt tho
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/34/Eddard_Stark.jpg/250px-Eddard_Stark.jpg)
