|
On June 15 2013 05:45 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused. Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Oracles can't attack air....
|
On June 15 2013 11:33 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt. QFT.. a stalker buff (especially antiair damage) is what I've been clamoring for since the beginning of WoL - its such a terrible unit by cost. Completely agree. Fuckin ground vikings do more dps than stalkers. I shit you not. Originally buffing stalkers would have broken 4 gate, but 4 gate is completely useless now. At least buff their upgrade dmg. They only get +1 per attack. What a joke.
|
On June 15 2013 12:21 Hellbat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 05:45 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused. Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD. Oracles can't attack air....
Which is why he mentioned the phoenix
|
Hellbats damage nerf is a bit too drastic for me as i think it will reduce their performance against chargelots. My beef with Hellbats is that they can be be healed.
|
On June 15 2013 08:06 eXdeath wrote: WP : Yes. Since the upgrade is now less significant, they could consider reducing its price slightly, or merging it with the observer speed.
What a brilliant idea.
|
The hellbat change is pretty good imo, It will forces terran who want better harass from hellbat to build a tech lab or another factory. This will somewhat promote mech play, because going bio + hellbat will be a bit limited in the beginning and this will however make hellbat more fit into mech play.
The other changes are just stupid lol. They should nerf sentry then buff zealot+stalker by allowing micro to increase their usability. Oh...
|
On June 15 2013 11:25 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt. You and me both! I've been wanting a stronger Stalker for a very long time. Any buff to the Stalker (straight base damage and hp for example) would have to be balanced by a corresponding nerf to Blink though. Anything less would not be fair. Anyway, sorry for the derail. I like all of these changes, with the exception of the cheapness of the Banshee cloak upgrade. But, like I said earlier in the thread, I think these changes are an extreme version of what eventually makes it to the patch.
Well, HotS seems like a good time to introduce such a change considering they have already nerfed blink. Would be a decent trade off.
On June 15 2013 12:35 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 12:21 Hellbat wrote:On June 15 2013 05:45 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote: I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable??? Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo? I'm confused. Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD. Oracles can't attack air.... Which is why he mentioned the phoenix
Yet he also said 2 oracles
Would be interesting if Oracles could attack air. In fact if they could, they would be a pretty decent counter to banshees considering the bonus damage it does to light (and banshee is a light unit)
|
Sucks to have to get a tech lab to upgrade hellbats when you really only had 1 reactored factory TvZ/TvP for dual hellbat production, but meh.
I like the idea of promoting more banshee usage but I think the cost the should be decreased to 150/150 with the research reduction OR the cost decreased to 100/100 and the research time is left the same. Feels like hellbat openings are just going to be replaced with banshee rushes every game.
I'm sure Blizzard will take note of stuff like this after people have played on the map and given feedback though, so we'll see. I like the initiative on proposing these changes at least though.
|
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote:PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.
Nerfed by requiring some research. By the time you've got an army to use Hellbats with, you'll already have the research.
The point is to make fast Hellbat drops slower or less damaging. That research cost means your Medivac is going to be that much slower coming out, or you're going to have to sacrifice something else in order to get the research upgraded before you drop.
That's how it weakens drops.
I honestly have no idea where they're going with the cloak buff though...
|
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote: I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
Sadly, I think the boat has long sailed on this.
|
I guess the cloak buff is similar to the dark shrine cost buff. So banshee build is not a heavy invested build, but more like an optional opener. Cloak banshee build is not too hard to stop in HOTS. TvZ, spores can be make without evo. Protoss have photon overcharge. TvT, Banshee is probably one of the easier thing to stop.
Have to test out the map. Seems positive overall.
|
What's the point with buffing another unit randomly just because one is getting nerf lol
|
I'm not feeling the banshee change really. I like Lukeeze's idea to merge the cloaks of ghost and banshee but i'm not sure how that could be done really as they're from different buildings. You definitely can't put the banshee cloak on the ghost building but I guess adding it to the tech lab wouldn't be a bad idea. I guess we'll see how it plays out though but it seems like dropping to 100/100 is pretty serious.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On June 15 2013 12:35 Hangman89 wrote: Hellbats damage nerf is a bit too drastic for me as i think it will reduce their performance against chargelots. My beef with Hellbats is that they can be be healed.
Nah, Hellbats should have blue flame just because... it's nice and it was from the start. Don't know why they removed blue flame for hellbats at some time
|
You don't need to chase it the Prism. Just intercept it? or prevent it from warping :3
|
Warp Prism: No idea why they seem fixated on buffing the warp prism. If it's harass options they want to give toss the warp prism is already decent at it. The oracle is what's pretty bad unless your opponent has no idea you are going to go oracle.
HellBat: While I'd of still liked to see them just remove the healing or something of that nature, at least early 1 base hellions won't be quite so powerful, which is really the big problem with them right now. Late game currently they are good but I wouldn't say broken, so the change could work.
Banshee: You could probably argue the HB drops were a large issue in all match ups, but cloaked banshee will be stupid in TvP and TvT with a change like this. It easily could replace the HB drop.
|
I feel like the Banshee change isn't that big of a deal. 250/200 is a huge investment compared to 300/100 and it can't do nearly as much damage as a Hellbat drop provided that scans exist. Two Banshees would probably balance it out, but that's 400/300. Even after the Hellbat nerf the drops will cost 450/250.
All in all Terran has more equally viable choices for harass (just when I thought it wouldn't be possible) and Hellbat drops arrive later.
|
People are making a bigger deal about the hellbat nerf then it really warrants. Hellbat drops early game were stupid. They ere practically impossible to defend against. You could just win simply by dropping Hellbats.
And guess what. Get the blue flame and bam you have your bonus back. So enjoy your free wins for now.
EDIT: As for the Banshee. I we don't need faster/cheaper cloak. What we need are faster banshees. Protoss and Zerg are pretty immune to banshee openers. The only thing Banshees are gonna do is make TvT really stupid. not to mention weaken Mech TvT because your so much better off getting a crap ton of marines.
Protoss: Stargate/Robo shut it down + MS Core
Zerg: Spores that require Spawning pool.
|
On June 15 2013 14:24 Antylamon wrote: I feel like the Banshee change isn't that big of a deal. 250/200 is a huge investment compared to 300/100 and it can't do nearly as much damage as a Hellbat drop provided that scans exist. Two Banshees would probably balance it out, but that's 400/300. Even after the Hellbat nerf the drops will cost only 450/250.
All in all Terran has more equally viable choices for harass (just when I thought it wouldn't be possible) and Hellbat drops arrive later. Ehhh I wouldn't agree with that.
Provided that scans exist? That's very vague. You still have limited scans, and if you don't kill the banshee with the scan you're going to have hardly any SCVs by the time you have another scan. Even with scans, you need stimmed marines and/or turrets and/or vikings to take down the banshee. Depending on the opening those may be things you don't have. Even in the pro scene there are games that last no longer than 10 minutes due to significant banshee damage.
If your opponent goes hellbat drop and you don't scout it, you lose some SCVs, then get your units in position to defend and the threat is thwarted. If your opponent goes banshee and you don't scout it, it's in your base killing stuff and much harder to effectively defend. It's not uncommon to see a banshee kill 15+ units in a game, and with even faster cloak and research time that only goes up.
I think it definitely compares to the damage hellbat drops do. If it was a banshee opening vs a hellbat opening the build order advantage probably goes to the hellbat player though just because you can make 2 vikings asap, but I would say both openings can do comparable damage to an assortment of other Terran openings.
|
The banshee buff is good. 150/150 might be better but it encourages other forms of harassment other than hellbat drops which is great. Everyone complaining that you could go cloak on 1 gas, yes that is true but you have to realize that you are going to get the necessary gas (100 for fact,100 for Starport, 100 for cloak, and 100 for banshee) much much slower. I think people should maybe wait til they've actually played the map before complaining that something is imba.
|
|
|
|