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On June 15 2013 09:12 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 07:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote:
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait. There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion. Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize.
in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On June 15 2013 09:06 aZealot wrote:
Does this thread also have to devolve, yet again, into another bout of nauseating nostalgia for Mech? Good god! >_<
I'm sorry, I don't know about you but I just find watching pretty much only bio every single game incredibly boring. I've never liked Bio play, even in BW as although it takes a lot of micro I really find it hard to appreciate the minor details as it's more about trying to force mistakes rather than winning through more clever play.
I really just want the game to have as many options as possible and if they make mech stronger, which they said they wanted to do, then maybe we'd see Stargate play and TvP wouldn't be the same game every single time. People complain about ZvP from WoL, but in my opinion TvP is much worse. Pretty much every single game might as well just be moulded together because to me, that's what it looks like. Nothing ever changes and the metagame has been the same since WoL was released. It's terrible.
Either way, these changes seem pretty fine to me. Better banshees could lead to some more banshee openings again which is actually enjoyable to watch and it could be a somewhat stealth buff to mech. With Hellbats just having their damage moved to BFH I think that works out fine too since BFH are better at harass anyway and it means it'll be more likely we'll be seeing it and the transformation if for some reason we do get to finally see mech outside of TvT.
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On June 15 2013 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:19 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 07:49 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote:
Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard. Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective. Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps. Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what? This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there). Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine. Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway. Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use? Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice.
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Warp prisms, according to Blizzard, are being considered to address Protoss 'weakness'. This is arguable. I personally think this change has more to do with allowing differing play styles for a race that is relegated to 'defend until 200/200' or hit a timing you pulled off your build-order wheel. A restriction that the other two races do not have to the same degree.
Pretty simple.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On June 15 2013 09:22 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 08:19 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 07:49 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote:
Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard. Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective. Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps. Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what? This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there). Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine. Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway. Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use? Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice. Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics. Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.Pretty simple.
The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people.
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On June 15 2013 09:16 headnut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:12 mahO wrote:On June 15 2013 07:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote:
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait. There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion. Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize. in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered.
Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know.
I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that :
TERRAN =
+Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade ///
ZERG =
+Hydra Speed (bahaha)
+Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops)
+Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind)
-Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit
OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim!
yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
User was banned for this post.
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David Kim: We've noticed that it's taking a little too long for Protoss to fulfill their intended role of sacrificing thousand of minerals so we made the Warp Prism faster.
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Banshees are pretty easy to defend with few turrets so I don't really think it's that much of a problem except you miss the timing.
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On June 15 2013 09:35 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:16 headnut wrote:On June 15 2013 09:12 mahO wrote:On June 15 2013 07:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote:
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait. There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion. Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize. in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered. Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
Zerg was OP in WoL.
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On June 15 2013 09:35 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:16 headnut wrote:On June 15 2013 09:12 mahO wrote:On June 15 2013 07:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote:
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait. There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion. Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize. in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered. Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine
I cannot believe you think that is even a semblance of a rational argument.
You begin by implying that Terran vs Zerg was a good matchup by the end of Wings of Liberty. Terran vs Zerg, while an incredibly entertaining exchange for the vast majority of its lifetime, was a piss-poor shadow of itself by the end of the last era, both balance-wise and entertainment wise. Terran was winning about 30 percent of the time in the GSL by the end of Wings of Liberty, and almost every game involved some failed 2 base allin thanks to range 5 queens, or a terrible lategame vs obviously broken broodlord infestor. The game is currently more balanced than it has been in a long time, not my words, the words of David Kim, the man you just insulted after nicely reaping the benefits of lategame Zerg in Wings of Liberty. Terran is favored by only 3 percent in the matchup according to the latest statistic, and you +/- chart fails to take into account the MASSIVE advantage Zerg had in the matchup in Wings of Liberty.
Don't act as if balance design is a simple interaction of pluses and minuses, its an incredibly complicated affair having to do with current player mentality, map pool, and metagame positioning. I am not saying the game is currently perfectly balanced (asymetrical design makes this impossible) but it's sure as hell better than it used to be.
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I like the terran changes, not really the protoss changes. Watch moons zepplin micro if you want to see one of a few reasons a faster warp prism can be problematic.
Hellbat too strong obvious nerf, banshee may be a bit drastic but will hopefully bring back hellion banshee tvz
Blizzard NEEDS to add widow mine priority target w/e it is called fix.
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On June 15 2013 08:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:51 headnut wrote:On June 15 2013 08:48 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2013 08:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 08:45 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2013 08:42 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote:
Says you Zenith. I love Mech. Blizzard doesn't :/ Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that. Yes, exactly. And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game. watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling? his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive. What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint).
As opposed to legion of players who demand that they can amove their army into siege lines and win (which is actually true in tvp) ?
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On June 15 2013 10:01 1raxexpand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:53 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2013 08:51 headnut wrote:On June 15 2013 08:48 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2013 08:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 08:45 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2013 08:42 ZenithM wrote:On June 15 2013 08:41 Vindicare605 wrote:
Says you Zenith. I love Mech. Blizzard doesn't :/ Blizzard hates tank walls and people turtling behind auto firing AOE damage until victory. I can't really blame them for that. Yes, exactly. And with modern AI, auto firing and pathing, would it be good for the game if people could? Doubtful. But there will always be legions of players who want to build 25 tanks play the waiting game. watch streloks wcs games and tell me where he is turtling? his mech play vs zerg looks like its bio. his mech play vs toss is super aggressive. What are you talking about? I am talking about the legion of players who keep asking for a tank buff over and over, demanding that it kill all units if it gets seiged(or some level of that complaint). As opposed to legion of players who demand that they can amove their army into siege lines and win (which is actually true in tvp) ?
I don't see anybody asking for that.
Because we can already a-move siege tanks like they're nothing YEAHHHHHH!!
;D
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We don’t feel the overall strength of Terran is an issue at this point
hahahahahah
hahahahHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
User was warned for this post
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lol cloak banshee is gonna be sick fast lol
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could we see a return of the 111 in tvp? free seige, cloak that much more accessible..
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On June 15 2013 10:11 Aveng3r wrote:
could we see a return of the 111 in tvp? free seige, cloak that much more accessible..
Nexus cannon is the hardest counter imaginable for 1-1-1.
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Can Hellbats have blue flame too to show they have the upgrade please?
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On June 15 2013 09:22 Brett wrote:
Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics.
Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.
Warp prisms, according to Blizzard, are being considered to address Protoss 'weakness'. This is arguable. I personally think this change has more to do with allowing differing play styles for a race that is relegated to 'defend until 200/200' or hit a timing you pulled off your build-order wheel. A restriction that the other two races do not have to the same degree.
Pretty simple.
Agree with most of this. I doubt a huge change will go through on banshees after the balance testing. Hopefully some sort of hellbat refinement and a protoss change will go through.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On June 15 2013 10:31 Chicken Chaser wrote:
Can Hellbats have blue flame too to show they have the upgrade please?
The upgrade doesn't give Hellbats blue flames?
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EPT
