|
On June 15 2013 09:49 CapTanObviOs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:35 mahO wrote:On June 15 2013 09:16 headnut wrote:On June 15 2013 09:12 mahO wrote:On June 15 2013 07:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:33 liatis wrote:
Wow terran are not overperforming in HOTS? OK sure this is why the win rate against zerg is up to almost 60% . . . Can these guys read the stats?
Banshee buff is insane, completely, ridiculously insane. Banshees can already pay for their investment and should do damage even if the player responds ok if microed right.
Hellbat realisation has taken this long? The blizzard recruitment team sure like people who are fast on the uptake, the consenus has been this in the sensible community since about a week into HOTs Show me Terran domination in Korea. Go ahead I'll wait. There's fewer Terrans than EVER in SC2's history in Code S next season. Soulkey a Zerg is a GSL champion. Where is the Terran domination? Show it to me please. Show me domination that doesn't include MVP roflstomping Europe or Innovation slaughtering Code A Zergs in Proleague. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yes, and how did Soulkey win? Oh... Thats right, he had to cheese 3 games in a row and wait for Innovation to suicide 3 full medivacs into him in the final game. Great exemple for how balanced the game is, terran is fine because Innovation never prepared for roach timings and make 2 tanks... The lack of great terran players in Korea (most legends are not in shape these days, MVP, MMA, Taeja, they all hit a slump BEFORE HotS) at the moment is the reason we dont see them rape everyone, but dont worry, 3 seasons of Innovation 4-0ing finals should be enough for you & David Kim to realize. in broodwar flash dominated, did anyone cry for nerfs? no, because the better player wins. even if innovation keeps winning, it doesnt mean terran is overpowered. Innovation winning isnt relevent, the way he will win the next 3 major tournaments he enters will be. Nestea vs Inca finals wasnt a proof zerg is op, just Inca playing like a diamond, when we'll see players like Soulkey, Life, Parting, Leenock etc. people dont realize the mechanics these guys have, they wont loose because Innovation macro is perfect, Innovation is insanely good dont get me wrong, I just wonder what would happen if they'd balance this game. Maybe he'd still win, maybe not, guess we'll never know. I just cant believe, after a stable ZvT match up in WoL, considered by most as a really interesting, skilled and balanced match up, you people dont realize that : TERRAN = +Mines +Turbovacs + Hellbats + No Siege research + Air & Ground mech defense upgrade /// ZERG = +Hydra Speed (bahaha) +Muta Buff (so useful when you're facing bio mine obviously, you're getting blind countered by metagame and just common sense,investing 2000 2000 to stop drops and deal mineral damage which isnt even guaranteed if T's defense is solid, mutas are greeeaaat, or just necessary so you dont instantly die to the new drops) +Ultras (have fun reaching Hive without being behind) -Infestors are useless now, barely a support unit OH! But we have burrow before Lair tech, solves it, thanks David Kim! yeah, I guess its balanced man, its all fine I cannot believe you think that is even a semblance of a rational argument. You begin by implying that Terran vs Zerg was a good matchup by the end of Wings of Liberty. Terran vs Zerg, while an incredibly entertaining exchange for the vast majority of its lifetime, was a piss-poor shadow of itself by the end of the last era, both balance-wise and entertainment wise. Terran was winning about 30 percent of the time in the GSL by the end of Wings of Liberty, and almost every game involved some failed 2 base allin thanks to range 5 queens, or a terrible lategame vs obviously broken broodlord infestor. The game is currently more balanced than it has been in a long time, not my words, the words of David Kim, the man you just insulted after nicely reaping the benefits of lategame Zerg in Wings of Liberty. Terran is favored by only 3 percent in the matchup according to the latest statistic, and you +/- chart fails to take into account the MASSIVE advantage Zerg had in the matchup in Wings of Liberty. Don't act as if balance design is a simple interaction of pluses and minuses, its an incredibly complicated affair having to do with current player mentality, map pool, and metagame positioning. I am not saying the game is currently perfectly balanced (asymetrical design makes this impossible) but it's sure as hell better than it used to be.
Let me guess, you play protoss? The words of Sir David Kid? Am I supposed to kneel? Ah mkay I guess its just for terrans. David Kim repeatedly prooved he isnt an expert, and that he mostly wanted the game to be "fun and exciting for the viewers" by increasing offensive strategies potency, what else do you need? Terran favored by only 3 percent, like I said, just wait 3 months, you'll get patched, and you'll look at your "the game is currently balanced" and make a sadface.
Of course its complicated, but right now, its not complicated to see the potential of the terran race, at all and thats why its shocking, the + and - still stands, it is so obviously unbalanced that it stands. I dont get how so many people can be such hypocrites...
So I guess you're terran, and I'm zerg, and this is getting useless, thing is, you'll get patched, maybe in a month, maybe in 5, maybe both since terran will dominate and as usual blizz will patch and patch and change bunkers, and yes I want it to change ASAP as a viewer, not a player, I dont intend to get above mid master, I never did, I play casually these days and have no interest in perfect balance personally, but as an esport fan, the next few months will turn to shit, dont worry, 6 months, just like in WoL, they'll kill terran and we will always go at it like that, overbuff, overnerf, overbuff, overnerf.
The race doesnt matter at that point, this game is already loosing a good amount of viewers because of various reasons, balance unstability, patches every 3 months will finish it off I guess.
|
That banshee change is pretty big and will change lot of the terran matchups o.o
|
On June 15 2013 09:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:22 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 08:19 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 07:49 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote:
Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard. Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective. Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps. Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what? This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there). Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine. Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway. Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use? Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice. Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics. Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.Pretty simple. The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people.
Its mainly because its too hard to balance to do that, in fact it may not even been litterally possible to balance a game that way. In fact, the legendary Brood War had units that were never usable in any matchup at any time.
|
On June 15 2013 10:56 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:26 Qikz wrote:On June 15 2013 09:22 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 08:19 Brett wrote:On June 15 2013 07:49 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 15 2013 07:19 Brett wrote:
Idiots... why the fuck would they touch banshee cloak? This is not WoW you are balancing here, Blizzard. Perhaps because Banshees are NEVER used in the current meta. Perhaps because Oracle detection, Mothership Core, and Spawning Pool Spore Crawlers directly impacted the usefulness of Banshee builds while nothing up till now was given to them to make them more effective. Perhaps they aren't idiots. Just perhaps. Even if I accept what you say about banshees not being used, so fucking what? This is not the sort of game to be bringing in little changes every few months because something has fallen out of favour in the current meta. I don't want SC to become another volatile, FOTM shitfest that swings around every time Blizzard decides to make a change to try and appease people with vested interests (like so many other competitive games out there). Then why nerf Helbat drops? By your logic, they shouldn't adjust the metagame at all since the balance stats say the game is fine. Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to nerf Helbat drops and yet they are anyway, Blizzard's statistics and professional results say there's no reason whatsoever to buff the Warp Prism and yet they are anyway. Why are you bitching about just Banshees if this is the kind of argument you're going to use? Here's how it is. Helbat drops are too strong, Banshees are too weak, those are both true and both issues are problematic. Rather than simply addressing one Blizzard is addressing both so that they are only changing the metagame once as opposed to twice. Hellbats need attention. There is information to suggest that it is necessary to change them and it's not balance statistics. Banshees do not need attention. There is nothing to suggest that is necessary to change them. Lack of use alone does not necessitate change. Not every unit has to be usable in every match up at all times.Pretty simple. The game would be a damn sight more interesting if they were though. I really don't understand why people want less options avaliable to people. Its mainly because its too hard to balance to do that, in fact it may not even been litterally possible to balance a game that way. In fact, the legendary Brood War had units that were never usable in any matchup at any time.
But in starcraft 2 they try to give nearly all units a role (except battlecruiser, Carrier, Mothership).
|
lol blizzard failing again at balancing stuff
|
On June 15 2013 11:06 Meerel wrote:
lol blizzard failing again at balancing stuff
You must be a prophet.
|
On June 15 2013 09:16 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 09:06 aZealot wrote:
Does this thread also have to devolve, yet again, into another bout of nauseating nostalgia for Mech? Good god! >_< I'm sorry, I don't know about you but I just find watching pretty much only bio every single game incredibly boring. I've never liked Bio play, even in BW as although it takes a lot of micro I really find it hard to appreciate the minor details as it's more about trying to force mistakes rather than winning through more clever play. I really just want the game to have as many options as possible and if they make mech stronger, which they said they wanted to do, then maybe we'd see Stargate play and TvP wouldn't be the same game every single time. People complain about ZvP from WoL, but in my opinion TvP is much worse. Pretty much every single game might as well just be moulded together because to me, that's what it looks like. Nothing ever changes and the metagame has been the same since WoL was released. It's terrible. Either way, these changes seem pretty fine to me. Better banshees could lead to some more banshee openings again which is actually enjoyable to watch and it could be a somewhat stealth buff to mech. With Hellbats just having their damage moved to BFH I think that works out fine too since BFH are better at harass anyway and it means it'll be more likely we'll be seeing it and the transformation if for some reason we do get to finally see mech outside of TvT.
Sorry, if I came across as acerbic. It's just that I am more than a little tired of Terran tears for Mech.
Of course, if would be nice to have more gameplay and unit options. But the fact is, that the realisation of these options would lead to massive churn in the meta for a period of many months as the changes and counters are worked through and as, inevitably, more patches are introduced. In the case of mech, I doubt it is worth it. I doubt it because SC2 is largely a different game from BW. This is to state the obvious, but it seems it needs to be stated due to the unvarying assumption on these boards, as far as I can see, that a stronger tank, for example, in SC2 will linearly lead to mech styles similar to BW.
There is nothing to indicate that this will be the case. Other than wishful thinking. What is more likely is that turtle mech play styles will be encouraged leading to yet more complaints - albeit of a different kind this time. What is also likely is that elements of mech in combination with bio will, in all probability, make Terran OP. This is because bio, again to state the obvious, is very strong in SC2 and is tailored to a mobile and aggressive style. It's not as simple as buff the tank, and suddenly we'll have positional mech engagements a la BW and everything else will be the same. This is very, very unlikely.
I understand the boredom aspect of playing the same play style. And I also understand the frustration of Terran players who do not have the mechanics to play the active bio heavy Terran style in SC2. But, this does not necessarily mean that Blizzard are obligated to (in all probability) overturn the game just so as alleviate these feelings on the part of a small fraction of the playing population. It is simply not worth it. The rather more obvious course to take, if you cannot play an optimal Terran style is to change race, or if you are bored with what the game can provide, simply stop playing.
|
Not sure why so many people are hating on the banshee change, the unit feels pretty dead in competitive play.
I do think cutting the research time seems a bit much but a cheaper cloak seems reasonable.
edit: aZealot I think everyone has seen on your opinion on mech by this point, its literally starting to feel like trolling with your snide comments and same rants over and over. You don't see people crusading against air toss or templar tech, give it a rest.
|
I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
|
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote:
I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
You and me both! I've been wanting a stronger Stalker for a very long time. Any buff to the Stalker (straight base damage and hp for example) would have to be balanced by a corresponding nerf to Blink though. Anything less would not be fair.
Anyway, sorry for the derail. I like all of these changes, with the exception of the cheapness of the Banshee cloak upgrade. But, like I said earlier in the thread, I think these changes are an extreme version of what eventually makes it to the patch.
|
don't you guys see what they are doing? they are making a big change and will probably remove it or draw it back to 150/150. The last patch was the same, they wanted to make a drastic change to see how players reacted, they saw it's effectiveness and drew back the change half way and the change STILL isn't live, proving that blizzard is making these adjustments very carefully. Let's see how it plays instead of theorcraft, even though it's probably true, and see how blizzard responds.
|
On June 15 2013 04:53 Xequecal wrote:
This change breaks PvT. The standard Protoss 1 gate expand (gate core nexus gate gate robo) pops its first observer at 7:15. A gas-first Terran build can pop a banshee at 6:25 and finish cloak by 6:55. You can't even 1-gate expo anymore without dying or leaving yourself very vulnerable by making the robo before your second and third gates. Even if you do this, you have to produce three obs and the first two can't scout or Terran can just wreck your econ by bouncing between mineral patches as the banshee is faster than the observer. The fact that it's now mandatory to spend 150 gas to defend against the potential of 100 gas cloak is ridiculous.
I dunno how you're supposed to defend against the banshee at all on maps with a large distance between the main and natural mineral lines like Akilon wastes. The banshee can just head for the base where your observer isn't and kill a lot of probes.
You can't quite get 6:55 cloak on 1 gas, but you can take the second gas very late and then take the SCVs out afterwards. Before you had to take the second gas much earlier, losing more mineral income. That combined with the 200 mineral cost of the research meant your expansion was delayed a lot. Now you can mine more minerals and the research only costs 100 minerals so you can start an expansion way earlier. This build also conveniently gets cloak early enough to squash any void ray or immortal allins.
Lol, this is not standard protoss gate expand anymore. Shit dude, Super did a build in GSTL today that got his robo down at 4:50.
|
The banshee change is interesting and will allow for the option of cloaked banshee builds in TvZ and TvP which are never seen right now because of how far back they set you in economy. Overall I like all of the changes.
|
On June 15 2013 11:20 Drowsy wrote:
I would like it if stalkers no longer sucked so badly in every matchup. Annihilated in cost efficiency vs hydras, roaches, or lings (take your pic, really), crushed by the unit they're supposed to counter in pvp (vrs), and terrible against everything but small groups of marines in pvt.
QFT.. a stalker buff (especially antiair damage) is what I've been clamoring for since the beginning of WoL - its such a terrible unit by cost.
|
On June 15 2013 03:34 Plansix wrote:
Sure, I will take it. I hate banshees with the white hot fire of 1000 suns, but we have so much detection now and the cannon, I don't mind a bit of a buff.
Agreed with this. Super Nexus are crazy good, and Zerg has queens up the wazoo.
|
On June 15 2013 11:17 Bagi wrote:
edit: aZealot I think everyone has seen on your opinion on mech by this point, its literally starting to feel like trolling with your snide comments and same rants over and over. You don't see people crusading against air toss or templar tech, give it a rest.
Fair enough. Except it's not a rant. Although, I can, admittedly, be a little snide at times.
Anyway, I could easily the same about you, bud. 
Edit/ That said, I'm sorry to derail the thread, yet again. I'm done, and out.
|
What does it take to completely shut down cloaked banshees in TvT? Good scouting, a couple vikings and a couple turrets will 100% defend you mineral lines, and leave the other guy behind. We saw this in WoL all the time. Now the other guy wont be as behind from now on. Now tell me what units completely shut down a hellbat drop in TvT.
I would much prefer banshees being the go to with hellbat drops mixed in to all hellbats all the time because the banshee offers so much more room for counter play in the matchup.
|
Sad to see them nerf me.
Anyways, replace hellbat drops with 1gas banshee vs 1gas banshee every game !
|
hellbat nerf is reasonable i guess .. not nerfing the base damage to much is good so that its still viable ..
idk if the warp prism change will really reward multitasking .. it just endorses drop play
and the banshee clock buff is good .. perhaps too good they should just make it 125/125 or 150/150 .. and also banshee buff is good it rewards high skill ceiling play
|
sometimes I feel like Blizzard puts very little thought into balancing this game..
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
