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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:28 xokati wrote: Cheap banshee with range 6 vs more expensive Oracle with range 4. Call us back when the possibility of a Banshee in your mineral line by 5'10 forces every single Protoss build to take this threat into account. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
warp prism play only changes early warp prisms plays a bit which will pretty much only boost some PvZ all-ins a little, that's it. For lategame it doesn't matter at all and PvT or PvP they are still very wonky, just because there are not really any good units to drop anyway (plus nexus cannon still stomps it). Hellbat nerf is too big, this is just an overnerf for TvT, which arguably makes it a little better, that simply removes mech from TvZ and TvP even more. Don't let other matchups suffer for a mirror fix really. I do feel a nerf for them was a bit neccesary but this is just too harsh especially since it's just difficult to get a techlab while you're adding your hellbats. A small medivac nerf makes much more sense or remove the ability to make hellbats directly but buff transformation servos a bit. Banshee buff finally is just too big, banshee openings will really start to dominate TvT and become quite big in TvZ maybe even TvP with this. Banshee opening in TvT was always good until it got sort of replaced with hellbat drops being basically superior, nerfing hellbats hard while buffing banshee's will just make banshee opening a near must in TvT. You can do it off 1 gas now basically while expanding quickly, you are pretty much garanteed to at least equalize against a FE and you get scouting and you're safe at the same time. Buffing them a little is fine but 150/150 is enough, research time really doesn't need to be quicker either. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On June 17 2013 19:59 Xequecal wrote: Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts.You mean, like, in WoL? Yes, Immortal Sentry was very ridiculous against Zerg in WoL. Right now though? You get swarm hosts to crush it and Protoss hasn't gotten anything that can bolster the build against Swarm Hosts, like Terran gets 200/200 to buy a Raven to get a PDD against Nexus Cannon. | ||
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Lazzi
Switzerland1923 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:25 Tuczniak wrote: Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts. New hydras solve it. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:43 Sabu113 wrote: Still in shock that the 75/75 reactorable mines bypass immortal shields. They're not nukes. How- Argh. Nukes arent really nukes anymore ... they are just big bombs which kill workers and other stuff with low hp, but they dont kill any big buildings. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:25 Tuczniak wrote: Against proper immortal sentry you won't get swarmhosts in time. Of course many foreign protoss have timings wrong and you can make it, but against good players you will die before swarmhosts. Baneling carpet-bombing? Baneling landmines? All you need is to kill the initial huge amount of Sentries and then grow much bigger in economy and just keep swarming everywhere with Zerglings and constantly threat an attack on the wall of the Protoss base. TLO vs Squirtle in DH Ro16, games 2 and 3. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote: That's as good as in Wol. I'm not discussion if it's broken. I'm just correcting false things the person I quote said.Baneling carpet-bombing? Baneling landmines? All you need is to kill the initial huge amount of Sentries and then grow much bigger in economy and just keep swarming everywhere with Zerglings and constantly threat an attack on the wall of the Protoss base. TLO vs Squirtle in DH Ro16, games 2 and 3. | ||
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
, that simply removes mech from TvZ and TvP even more As a meching terran I can assure you it won't. You still get the damage with Blue Flame anyway and if anything I feel blue flame hellions are better at harass than Hellbats are past the first 10 minutes and this will promote that upgrade again. | ||
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Doomhunter
United States12 Posts
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldnt a single stargate out of Protoss pretty much hard counter a cloaked banshi even with the reduced costs? I think if you opened stargate you would be able to get your expand down a lot quicker than a terran who went cloak banshi and an Oracle + Phoenix would shut down the harass and allow your own harass. You could probably even cut the MSC and put that gas into tech. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
uhh no, new hydra's do absolutely nothing against it.. hydra's are still crappy for defense they only got an upgrade for off-creep movement.. only change that helped against the soultrain between wol and hots are the change in maps and muta's really. Muta basetrading is a slightly better option now and the more open maps make it harder to perform the sentry-immortal allin | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:08 TheDwf wrote: Call us back when the possibility of a Banshee in your mineral line by 5'10 forces every single Protoss build to take this threat into account. Every Protoss build does take this into account. More specifically, we take Widow Mines into account, which means every Protoss build either has an Oracle, Photon Cannons, or a fast Robo. Oracles are good units, don't get me wrong, and I have no problems with this Banshee buff, but Terran is in no way being unjustly pigeonholed by the possibility of an Oracle attack. Also, Hydras do counter the Immortal all-in. They always did. The reason it's viable now is because going Hydra is a viable tech path, whereas before you pretty much would auto-lose if the Protoss just macroed up and killed you. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On June 17 2013 21:14 Qikz wrote: As a meching terran I can assure you it won't. You still get the damage with Blue Flame anyway and if anything I feel blue flame hellions are better at harass than Hellbats are past the first 10 minutes and this will promote that upgrade again. noone get's much hellions with mech nowadays, you are wasting money on blueflame and transformation serves if you do which are far better to spend on actually useful upgrades, medivacs etc. Blue flame hellions are ok for harass but at the moment you can just as well use medivacs. To use blueflame hellions you basically need to spend 300/300 since you also need the transformation upgrade then which is way too much, instead any decent mech player just only makes hellbats straight away and doesn't bother with hellions after the first few used in the opening... I've seen blueflame maybe twice in pro games (forGG) and never saw transformation servos, they are just shitty upgrades considering you can make hellbats right away and there is such little need for hellions when hellbat drops harass just as well basically. With mech you're on a clock because air transitions hurt you badly so you don't have time for marginally useful upgrades like blueflame. Now you will have to get it which makes mech even more unplayable in TvZ and TvP than it was.. | ||
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IMR
70 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
Cheaper faster banshees basically does what hellbat drops do, but earlier and slightly less emphasis on cannons if they stop at one banshee. From the Innovation SoS games, we see that when Terran forces enough defense out of Protoss, the P cannot handle the front push after T gets on 3 bases. Even David Kim admitted the banshee was already better than the DT in that state of the game interview. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:59 RemrafGrez wrote: Banshee buff is bad because Protoss has terrible anti-air. You'll never actually kill a banshee if it's controlled well. Then you are forced to go robo, build extra observers early, a cannon in each base if he commits to more than one banshee, and several stalkers which you would not want to ever make. Stalkers are terrible vs. T in the midgame... they put you so far behind on being able to take a 3rd. Cheaper faster banshees basically does what hellbat drops do, but earlier and slightly less emphasis on cannons if they stop at one banshee. From the Innovation SoS games, we see that when Terran forces enough defense out of Protoss, the P cannot handle the front push after T gets on 3 bases. Even David Kim admitted the banshee was already better than the DT in that state of the game interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSwuNHFX4A protoss have terrible anti air? planetary nexus and stalkers is far more than what you need against banshees | ||
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woopr
United States110 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:59 RemrafGrez wrote: Even David Kim admitted the banshee was already better than the DT in that state of the game interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSwuNHFX4A i forgive DK for saying this because it was a speed round and it's easy to not really give it much thought, but you have to be fucking delusional to actually think banshees are currently better than DTs. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On June 18 2013 08:38 woopr wrote: i forgive DK for saying this because it was a speed round and it's easy to not really give it much thought, but you have to be fucking delusional to actually think banshees are currently better than DTs. Well, Banshees are not as useful for Terran as DTs are for Protoss. But that's because Terran has so many cheaper, harass options that are just as effective. DTs are one of only a few options for Protoss, so you see them more. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On June 18 2013 02:05 Shiori wrote: Every Protoss build does take this into account. More specifically, we take Widow Mines into account, which means every Protoss build either has an Oracle, Photon Cannons, or a fast Robo. Oracles are good units, don't get me wrong, and I have no problems with this Banshee buff, but Terran is in no way being unjustly pigeonholed by the possibility of an Oracle attack. Also, Hydras do counter the Immortal all-in. They always did. The reason it's viable now is because going Hydra is a viable tech path, whereas before you pretty much would auto-lose if the Protoss just macroed up and killed you. The thing is, banshees can run away from detection and widow mines can't. If you have an oracle against a banshee, you're now really behind because Terran can just stop at that 1 banshee and macro while you have to switch tech paths and get obs just in case he makes more, because that oracle can't detect forever. A single cannon will also defend your minerals against a mine, you need two per base to protect against banshees. The real issue is that anything that makes banshees semi-viable is a huge problem for Protoss because now they have to assume banshees are coming in every vs. Terran game they play. | ||
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Rhuubarb
Australia102 Posts
On June 18 2013 09:40 Xequecal wrote: The thing is, banshees can run away from detection and Widow mines can't. If you have an oracle against a banshee, you're now really behind because Terran can just stop at that 1 banshee and macro while you have to switch tech paths and get obs just in case he makes more, because that oracle can't detect forever. A single cannon will also defend your minerals against a mine, you need two per base to protect against banshees. I don't understand how you are "really behind" if you have an oracle when they have a banshee. The fact you have a stargate and a detector that moves faster than a banshee seems like you are in a better position than if you didn't have those things. Also I don't think you need 2 cannons per mineral line, the sight range on the single cannon is enough to detect banshees and allow other units (stalkers) to hit them. You only need multiple if you don't plan on using units to defend. | ||
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