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On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote:
If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all...
-_-;;
This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
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I like the banshee change, cause that opening wasnt used anymore by Ts. Against Z and P it should be ok (detection and nexcannon), in TvT we have to see how this change develops.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On June 16 2013 19:49 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote:
If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all... -_-;; This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
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On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 19:49 Cereb wrote:On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote:
If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all... -_-;; This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger. Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad. Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
For the toss, I'd add that now they go robo way quicker after expand because they are simply safer with MSC, so it's better against banshee.
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On June 16 2013 19:49 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote:
If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional Yeah, just like other "small changes" such as a bit extra range on the queen didn't really impact balance at all... -_-;; This change is completely over the top. Nothing has actually changed that has made banshee play bad, it's just that the other option such as hellbat drop and the medivac in general has become much much stronger.
apples and oranges... the banshee as a unit is not changed at all, while the queen was buffed by a tremendous amount, the only thing that can happen now is a faster and cheaper cloak, meaning all the opponent has to account for is faster detection and antiair, that should pose no problem at all... zerg can get a spore each base and has queens, protoss has more techpathes with detection now, and terran can have a turret and a viking ready so he desires.
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So where are the options for zerg to harass?
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On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote:
So where are the options for zerg to harass?
It's called the muta and the banelingdrop.
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On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote:
So where are the options for zerg to harass?
if you go ling bane muta all those units can harrass. if you go anything else...no harrass possible  sadly nydus, ovidrop (HT-speed lol), burrowed roaches and infestors arent viable harrass at all and not used by pros therefore (at least not in a standard way like WP and medivacs). hopefully blizz will realize this soon since it would add a lot of fun to playing Z.
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On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote:
So where are the options for zerg to harass?
Right up there with tech switch options for terrans and worker production for protoss. Having different playstyles is kinda sorta the point of having different races.
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I think all these changes are completely fine and reasonable. The banshee change might be in the low end though, as have been pointed out. 150/150 90s would be fine imo, or 100/100 110s, but both is a bit too much.
I really would like to see more banshee play, since that unit hasn't been produced since medivac/hellbat became a thing. And controlling banshees are a hell of a lot harder than controlling a hellbat drop.
Warp Prism looks really nice currently, hopefully we will see more protoss harass after this. No one will ever get the Gravitic Drive (WP speed) though until protoss very late-game. If protoss all-ins turns out to be too strong with the new warp prism, theres always the possibility to disable warp-in with the WP, until Gravitic Drive has been researched.
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On June 16 2013 20:22 Qikz wrote:
Actually, a lot of stuff has changed that makes banshee play bad.
Spores no longer need an evo chamber and lair tech is more prevelant faster and Protoss have easier detection now no matter what opening they go, so they don't just instantly die to banshees if they go the wrong build (well unless they 4 gate or something).
The thing most people don't realize is 1/1/1 was never really nerfed out of existence in WoL. It's still extremely overpowered on the maps used during the time when it was dominant. Even after the immortal range change and observer cost change, it was still utterly dominant in the matchup. It eventually died because Blizzard changed the map pool to maps that are very hostile to 1/1/1. Most importantly, they made sure to put a ramped choke somewhere on every single map that Protoss could use to seperate their SCV blob from their main army and pick them off. If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC. These maps were completely flat and open, leaving nowhere where you could cut them off with forcefields. Other maps HAD a ramped choke, but on basically every single one of these the expansion nexus was either close enough to the ramp or positioned such that they could reach it with siege tanks on the low ground. Shakuras Plateau, Steppes of War, and Taldarim Altar all had this problem. 1/1/1 died when they eliminated these features from every map in the pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again. In WoL Terran had to pay 200/200 more to execute the 1/1/1 than they do now. They needed siege tech, and 100/100 more for cloak research. Protoss has the nexus cannon now, but that 200/200 can be spent on an additional Raven to deploy a PDD to negate the nexus cannon. Moreover, we have maps again that are really favorable to 1/1/1 play. Star Station has no ramps where Terran can be cut off. Neo Planet S also has no ramps, and much worse they can siege up their tanks behind that little rock outcropping by your natural choke and hit your expansion from there. Akilon Wastes is also really bad, the tanks can be placed on the low ground such that they can hit the natural and be out of range of stalkers/immortals on the high ground.
There's also the risk that by making cloak cheaper and easier to get, you'll allow Terran to force a low-economy game where the opponent has to expand very late, and Banshees utterly dominate low-economy games. The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things. One is that incredibly hard counters to it (Templar, Phoenix, Devourer, Mutalisk, etc) exist at higher tech levels. The other is that it takes forever to build, which makes it impossible to mass up early before the hard counters come out. But if you can force a low economy game, neither of these matter. Your opponent won't have the resources to tech, and you'll have all the time you need to get a bunch of them out.
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On June 17 2013 00:29 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote:
So where are the options for zerg to harass? It's called the muta and the banelingdrop.
Baneling drop... That's hilarious, do you make up these jokes yourself?
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On June 16 2013 05:36 Decendos wrote:
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable.
Irrelevant, burrow harass can be used against bio too. See for instance Bunny vs Leenock, Star Station, Up & Down (burrowed roaches) or MMA vs YuGioh, Whirlwind, ATC (burrowed infests).
game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
Then check Maru vs RagnaroK, Star Station, GSTL or Bogus vs EffOrt, Naro Station, SPL to find more macro-oriented Nydus builds. I have absolutely no idea why every Zerg and their mother comes here complaining about Nydus when you can get tons of cheap wins with 2-bases Roaches Nydus if Terran isn't super vigilant about those. Not everything has to be viable as a super fancy harass stuff, you know. Nydus has some use, for instance speeding up the traveling process for Swarm hosts (e. g. Bogus vs Action, Korhal Floating Island, SPL or, for a ZvP variant, TLO vs TaiLS (?), Bel'shir Vestige, ATC) on top of the aforementioned pressure/all-ins uses.
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
Lings/banes/mutas isn't the only viable midgame composition. Check the MMA vs YuGiOh game listed above to see that other things can work. Roaches/Hydras isn't as efficient, true, but it can be (somewhat) decent if played right, i. e. hitting the right timing(s) and having the right transition(s).
On June 17 2013 02:17 Xequecal wrote:
If you play WoL, 1/1/1 is still not realistically beatable on maps like Metalopolis or XNC.
Except (a) we're in June 2013 and everyone is playing HotS and (b) neither Metalopolis or XNC are part of the current map pool.
There's a real chance that the banshee change could lead to the whole 1/1/1 stupidity against Protoss all over again.
No. You understood nothing about the reasons the 1-1-1 could be succesful if you think that. The 1-1-1 could work because, among others, (a) Protoss were forced to play 3gR after their expand to be safe against all agressive Terran options, which means that (b) they generally could not get much tech out (especially if they had suffered some damage from the initial harassment phase) and could not or rarely use things like an early Forge for +1 armor or a quick Twilight to search Charge before the Marines/Tanks attack hit. Is this still the case now? No. This means 1-1-1 could now meet 1-0-0 Zealots (63 Marines hits to kill one under Guardian Shield, have fun), or several Oracles (which absolutely massacre unupgraded Marines), and the classic 5gR Immortals answer would be vastly improved by (a) the earlier robo and (b) the fact MSC can cast 2 Time Warps to prevent Marine micro, or (c) simply the fact the Nexus would now be able to single-handedly prevent the progression of the push (no way to build a Bunker or position a Tank in its range). So no, 1-1-1 would not come back.
The Banshee's raw stats are actually absurdly strong for what the unit costs. It does 2.5 times the DPS of a mutalisk and has more HP for only 50 more minerals, AND it cloaks. It's balanced by two things.
Plus Terran can build 10 of them at once from their Command Centers, so it's unbelievably OP. This comparison in a vacuum makes zero sense and you even wrote why yourself in your next sentences, so why do you even draw it in the first place?
On June 17 2013 02:20 Uni1987 wrote:
Baneling drop... That's hilarious, do you make up these jokes yourself?
Watch the Bogus vs Action game above, then do come back telling us where the hilarity lies.
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On June 17 2013 00:01 yocheco619 wrote:
So where are the options for zerg to harass?
Muta, the best harassment tool in the game?
Except Hellbats I guess.
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On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
Acctually this is quite genius.
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Terran suffering??? they still got marines and widow mines drop! not to mention hellions... it was the wings of Zerg and now it is the Heart of Terran Drops
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On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.
really great idea! might lead to more banshee openings in tvp now that nexus cannon has pretty much killed off early cloak harass in that matchup
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Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
Any advice? I'm REALLY worried about this..
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On June 17 2013 06:03 Snowbear wrote:
Has anyone thought about the idea that speedprisms will make terran never being able to move out? If I move out --> DT drop + zealot warpin --> you need a serious amount of army to defend vs that.
Meanwhile the toss can expo. If I attack him, he can defend behind nexus cannons. If I camp, then we get into lategame, where protoss shines.
Any advice? I'm REALLY worried about this..
No, if you move out, warp ins will be exactly the same as they are now (not affected by speed) and turrets will still do the exact same thing as they do now. Nothing will change regarding your worries.
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EPT
