On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
You, along with blizzard seem to miss the fact that hellbats have already failed in their role of tanky healy mech unit. All the healing from the medivac really provides is increased, unnecessary resilience in drop harassment.
Removing the bio tag targets the units harassment potential in a much better way, and could actually be considered a buff in TvP when dealing with archons.
I think it is a missed opportunity caused by stubborn refusal to go back.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
That was never the problem. Hellbats need to be healed or they are worthless as front line units. They were designed to tank/kill zealots for both bio and mech.
The actual problem is hellbats drops require very little micro on the attacker, and too much for their opponent. Changing them to 3-shot workers gives the opponent significantly more time to react compared to 2-shots.
And if you want to bring up THAT argument, marines are men in heavy mechanical suits very much like hellbats. Attacks against a marine would damage their suit first. How do you suppose a medivac heals a marine's suit? By that logic medivacs shouldnt be able to heal any Terran unit. BTW are you some kind of expert on magical healing beams?
Blizzard puts out some changes to be TESTED, and instantly people are crying like its the end of the world, like always.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
Exactly. I really wonder why they don't see it. Make healbats unhealable and everything is fine.
They do see it, and they reject it. Remember, Hellbats are supposed to be Mech's meat shields, hence why they can be healed. Blizzard opted to use the pre-existing Medivacs as the unit that helps you transition from some early bio to full mech so you don't lose their utility. If you remove their ability to be healed you need to do something else to give Mech a meat shield. That's why I like TheBorg's idea to replace the Servo upgrade with one to add the bio tag to Hellbats. This slows things down, but lets mech keep their meat shield, combined with the damage nerf from the blue flame change, early Hellbat drops would be quite nerfed.
You, along with blizzard seem to miss the fact that hellbats have already failed in their role of tanky healy mech unit.
Uh I literally just watched mech games during Dreamhack with lots of hellbats in the main army, against Protoss.
On June 16 2013 04:13 Decendos wrote: just because something exists doesnt mean its usable. no pro uses burrowed infestors or roaches
or ovidrop
or nydus.
You're welcome.
thanks but:
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
I feel like the Banshee change will affect TvT more than any other match up, and for that reason, I don't really like the change or see the need. The research time really doesn't need to change, and I'd be happy with a 150/150 cost.
The Banshee thing really kind of makes sense, as Z and P can get detection much easier than before (and when in the last year of WoL were Banshees outright winning games regularly?), but so much so that I'm not sure that it will really help in those match ups. For Terran mirror it will cause a gigantic shift in play, imo, as it's yet another aggressive opener that changes early threats in TvT whether it's gas first; 12rax 13/14/15 gas, etc.
To restate, Banshee usage fell off a lot vs Z and P towards the end of WoL. Then HotS made detection easier to get for Z and P, and while this change makes cloaked banshees more of a threat, it'll probably still be handled relatively easily by Z and P. TvT, on the other hand, has fairly large windows of having not many units in early game, while getting add-ons and often an in base CC.
However, this change is an overall positive. Banshees take more skill on the side of the attacker and aren't able to overwhelm 6 marines simply by dropping on top of them.
P.S. It would be really sick if you could get out cloaked banshees in TvT vs a marine/scv all-in, but I'm not sure that it's that fast. Of course, I'm not saying that your response to marine/scv would be fast cloaked banshees, but if people were going those builds blind, it could be quite amusing.
P.P.S. It would be really sick to get an Armory and reactored factory, then switch it back to a tech lab after being scouted, and get a thor (if you felt banshees were coming).
On June 15 2013 18:57 Foudzing wrote: The spore got an enormous buff, it's logic that the banshee get a buff aswell.
I'm not sure with the warp prism buff, but I'm ok overall.
Spore only got a buff for ZvZ, this Cloak buff affects all match-ups.
And in which matchup exactly is it hard to counter banshees. Recently for example I considered doing a cloakshee rush in TvZ, I used to do that long time in the past in WoL. Then I realized since the queen range boost still exist, it is pretty pointless. Cheaper cloak isn't going to change that. (Yes I know the queen range was ground attack, however that resulted in more queens being produced, which make banshees fairly useless for their investment).
You Terrans can never let go about that patch, lol. Seems like it did what it was supposed to do, as now not every random coinflip from Terran doesn't work anymore, yet the matchup is balanced because the real problems (infestors, lategame air armies) have been solved.
Yeah and we know you zerg like your queens to have siege tank range and splash damage.
However my point simply is that zerg still should have no problem with countering banshees.
why talk so much shit, we want a balanced game with several viable openings for both races, best player should win
right now terran has a few new openings and every hots unit is viable in the matchup, zerg has no new openings and both new units have hardly any use at all
on top, winrates so far have been at 55% every month
now terran gets a buff to banshee, why do u wonder zergs get upset?
The new Zerg units are so strong against mech that you barely see any mech at all.
nah, it's more because bio is way better than mech right now
Because Vipers make it really hard to make mech work. Also Vipers and the changed Ultra are the reasons that we don't see a lot of tanks anymore in TvZ. I think Zerg has a lot more 2/3 base options than Terran has to be honest.
Changed ultras still do the same damage to tanks now as they did before.
Why does everyone think that terran HAVE to have 2 completely viable variants available to them with Mech and Bio? I have never understood the argument about needing mech to be completely viable by itself.
I like their idea though about nerfing hellbat while as the same time buffing banshee to help compensate. Although I think it might be too big of a change maybe 50 instead of 100 is better.
On June 16 2013 06:03 Perdac Curall wrote: With all due respect Blizzard you are not addressing the real problem with hellbats and are potentially creating a whole new set of banshee related problems.
The problem with Hellbats is simply that they can be healed with medivacs. It makes them overpowered vs units they should suck against (e.g: Stalkers) and it doesn't even really make sense. The Hellion drivers cannot be healed by medivacs but suddenly the hellbat's driver can be. And even if it can be healed, even if somehow you suspend disbelief that much, it still doesn't make any sense, because it is not Hellbat driver you are damaging when you're attacking it, it's the outer mechanical shell of the hellbat that is being damaged. The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Save yourselves all the trouble and just make this one simple change and the almost balanced game we currently have will get even better, instead of flipping coins with these new unnecessary changes to so many matchups with changed cloaked banshees.
I basically agree with this. Blizzard is careful about making changes to the metagame then out of the blue they want more banshees?
On June 16 2013 12:26 MrSnuffy wrote: Why does everyone think that terran HAVE to have 2 completely viable variants available to them with Mech and Bio? I have never understood the argument about needing mech to be completely viable by itself.
Because the Terran upgrade path is divided into vehicles and barracks. Unlike the PZ who are air/land and can continue to upgrade from the same building as long as the tech requirements are met as soon as the prior one is done.
A Terran who wishes to have ALL land units, such as marine and tanks, to have the same upgrade of 1/1 Must not only spend more and be significantly late due to having to spend on two upgrades to pursue (+1 bio & +1 mech Attack), build both armory AND engineering bay, the Terran is delayed because the armory is only available upon completion of the factory, equals more delays.
Because Vipers make it really hard to make mech work. Also Vipers and the changed Ultra are the reasons that we don't see a lot of tanks anymore in TvZ. I think Zerg has a lot more 2/3 base options than Terran has to be honest.
Changed ultras still do the same damage to tanks now as they did before.
but they do more damage to the bio supporting the tanks meaning maxing on marine tank sucks once they get ultras out.
the banshee change seems fine. they might get used more in TvZ for hellion banshee openings but just for map control and no direct damage should be done since spores only require a spawning pool.
protoss is still gonna 1 gate fe into a quick robo and nexus cannon will shut down banshees pretty hard. i have no idea why protoss players are actually crying about this.
Just played a TvT on the normal ladder maps. Amazing how SCVs surrounding the Hellbats still resulted me in losing EVERYTHING in the early game. If Hellbat drop #1 with two Dropships designed to hit the main doesn't work, make 4 and drop them randomly! It'll work!
They have no clue what the hell they're doing. Banshee cloak change. Nrgh. 150/150 but the timing is going to be a huge huge error if they let it go through. Lets see what the warp prism change does. The quality of WoL could be called from the end of beta same with HoTS. There's a reason why the pimpest plays aren't as plentiful nor as pimp.
On June 16 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote: Just played a TvT on the normal ladder maps. Amazing how SCVs surrounding the Hellbats still resulted me in losing EVERYTHING in the early game. If Hellbat drop #1 with two Dropships designed to hit the main doesn't work, make 4 and drop them randomly! It'll work!
Get turrets and Vikings to kill the drop before it lands? Oh and scout your perimeter. If he can have Medivacs you can have Vikings ... two of them at least.
I think the Banshee change could turn out to be really positive, I like the idea of Terran having multiple, equally effective harass options- as opposed to "YOLO hellbat drops"
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
yeah you are right. "no pro uses it ever" was a bad argument. what i was trying to say is no pro uses roach hydra, ling infestor or SHs (vs MMMM + hellbat) or nydus or ovidrop or burrow moevement in a standard kind of way. standard doesnt mean it has to be used in every 2nd game but roach hydra is used like every 10-20th (in reality it maybe every 50th or so). game and the other stuff maybe every 100th-1000th game (not counting 2 base roach nydus all in since nydus needs to be a non-allin harrassment tool which zerg lacks a lot). so yeah it would be just more fun to watch and i also think to play for both T and Z if Z had more different viable compositions and harrassment options. if you are honest you know that pretty much every ZvT is muta or roach bane (semi) allin.
EPT
