On June 16 2013 04:13 Decendos wrote: just because something exists doesnt mean its usable. no pro uses burrowed infestors or roaches
or ovidrop
or nydus.
You're welcome.
thanks but:
game 1: mech game. roach hydra viper and therefore burrow movement viable. game 2: roach hydra ovidrop...loses. game 3: roach hydra nydus....loses. game 4: 2 base nydus allin. thats NOT harrass thats a 100% super allin.
so even your picked out examples arent viable vs MMMM + hellbat and those where the examples that are pro that strats. and there are many many games where roach hydra failed in the last months on prolevel. the thing is zerg needs only two things to be fun to play again:
1. more viable lairtech army compositions that can compete with ling bane muta (with other up- and downsides). mainly SH + support, roach hydra and ling infestor which already would be 4 comps and enough to have fun and bring some variety in the ling bane muta only lairtech.
2. better non-allin yet possibly effective harrassment strats: thats where small buffs to nydus (faster maybe supplywise unload or make it cheaper) and ovidrop (faster overlords that are faster than HT...) and burrow movement (also just make it a bit faster) come into play. T and P already got way faster drops in HOTS because players of all races got better in defending drops so each race needs faster dropships.
To be fair, he countered exactly what you initially said ("no pro uses ___"). Furthermore, just because a pro lost using it doesn't mean it wasn't viable. The very fact that a pro used it means that someone at the top level thought it worked, and that means that it must have worked on ladder/in practice. I hiiiighly doubt a pro would just use an unviable strat willy nilly for shits and giggles.
Well...Im only reading the first page of comments and I like the fact that we have new sc2 players apparently
Banshee will indeed affect TvT, but terrans can easily transition and adapt since its a mirror matchup, but it will also affect the other matchups - first banshee will arrive WITH cloak at the opponents base. Hellion banshee openers? Check. With a faster expo too.
On June 16 2013 15:06 Crownlol wrote: I think the Banshee change could turn out to be really positive, I like the idea of Terran having multiple, equally effective harass options- as opposed to "YOLO hellbat drops"
If any race has multiple equally effective harass options it's terran. The hellbat was an unnecessary cherry on the top.
On June 16 2013 16:30 Ambre wrote: Has anyone on this thread actually played the test map ?
I played quite a few games T (me) vs P with a clanmate. I was doing a gas first reactor hellion opener into cloak banshee (note, that build worked better cause he doesn't probe scout... his bad I guess). I also play mech TvP and used to play it in WoL where I used Banshees regularly. I definitely helps with this style. I never flat out killed him because he always had detection, but being able to harass somewhat (keeping the banshee alive at all costs) and then adding them into my army later seemed to work nicely.
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Yes! Lets replace Hellbats with Banshee rushes Warp Prisms everywhere, all those allins that will be created because of this buff.. T_T
Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Not being able to load them in seems a good idea balance wise, but not in terms of making the game authentic. You can load in a Thor but not a Hellbat, sounds rediculous!^^
On June 15 2013 03:31 Tobblish wrote: Yes! Lets replace Hellbats with Banshee rushes Warp Prisms everywhere, all those allins that will be created because of this buff.. T_T
Still want to know why changing so the Hellbat cant get loaded into the Medivac isn't a option. Design or Balance problem???
Not being able to load them in seems a good idea balance wise, but not in terms of making the game authentic. You can load in a Thor but not a Hellbat, sounds rediculous!^^
I also dont think blizzard wants to get rid of the hellbat drops, they want to push it back slighty so a resonse can be made. countering hellbat drops with hellbat drops was getting kinda old anyway
On June 16 2013 08:38 DyEnasTy wrote: 100/100 on cloak cost is quite drastic from 200/200. Im thinking that 100/200 would be much better.
100/200 would not change anything, its the gas that hinders you not the minerals..
encouraging earlier ghost use would be something i'd like to see aswell, ghost transitions are not fluent at all
they need a building which serves no other purpose than the unit itself, and on top of that they need 2 farily expensive upgrades aswell if you compare that to the protoss/zerg counterpart both feel way more fitting in their tech route and offer different upgrades/units (t2 path and archons on protoss side aswell as t3 requirement, swarmhosts + upgrades on zergs)
maybe switch out the armory and ghost academy as a requirement for bio t2 upgrades - this would naturally sort out hellbat drops aswell, since ppl would have to build an academy for t2 and an armory for extra hellbats (or at least make the hellbat thing even costlier if you dont plan to play mech)
we prolly would see less hellbats and more ghosts and a way way better progression route if you want to rush bio upgrades with a single ebay. maybe even more diversal upgrade preferences, like 2-0 or 0-2 straight up, which itsself can lead to interesting meta changes
back on topic im fine with the hellbat nerf, banshee buff seams reasonable considering how many more detection is ingame aswell as better and cheaper static d
i dont like the warp prism buff at all, protoss 1 base play is already strong vs terran, and a speed buff will not really help vs zerg in the early stages anyway
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Which do you prefer ... - being harrassed by 1 Banshee OR - being harrassed by 2 Banshees?
With that reduction in cost you can get an additional Banshee for not that much more compared to now AND cloak arrives 20 seconds earlier.
---
Personally I am happy because Blizzards changes sound really ridiculous and will make the game more volatile. This might be enough for people to realize how badly the game is designed and that pushing sooo much for offense will make "random chance" decide games more than actual playing skill. The other option is that players will be pushed into "overdefending" against harrassment which doesnt come and then lose to the big attack at the front. It is a lose-lose design when it comes to quality, because you can hide stuff too easily on the maps which will favor chance more than skill.
The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So looking at TvP. my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
On June 16 2013 08:38 DyEnasTy wrote: 100/100 on cloak cost is quite drastic from 200/200. Im thinking that 100/200 would be much better.
100/200 would not change anything, its the gas that hinders you not the minerals..
encouraging earlier ghost use would be something i'd like to see aswell, ghost transitions are not fluent at all
they need a building which serves no other purpose than the unit itself, and on top of that they need 2 farily expensive upgrades aswell if you compare that to the protoss/zerg counterpart both feel way more fitting in their tech route and offer different upgrades/units (t2 path and archons on protoss side aswell as t3 requirement, swarmhosts + upgrades on zergs)
maybe switch out the armory and ghost academy as a requirement for bio t2 upgrades - this would naturally sort out hellbat drops aswell, since ppl would have to build an academy for t2 and an armory for extra hellbats (or at least make the hellbat thing even costlier if you dont plan to play mech)
we prolly would see less hellbats and more ghosts and a way way better progression route if you want to rush bio upgrades with a single ebay. maybe even more diversal upgrade preferences, like 2-0 or 0-2 straight up, which itsself can lead to interesting meta changes
back on topic im fine with the hellbat nerf, banshee buff seams reasonable considering how many more detection is ingame aswell as better and cheaper static d
i dont like the warp prism buff at all, protoss 1 base play is already strong vs terran, and a speed buff will not really help vs zerg in the early stages anyway
I really like you're Ghost Academy Suggestion, I would even go a step further and suggest that 2/2 mech and upward require a Fusion Core, to encourage more BC usage as well. However I want to correct you on the topic of upgrades. Basically as terran you will never, ever get 0-2, because bio with stim has such wonderful synergy with attack upgrades, and your bio has no particular synergy with armor upgrades. You also will never want to stay on just 1 engi bay against any race, because not getting armor upgrades will make your bio too squishy vs anything.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
How does that work exactly? You still need a factory and a starport. Cloack won't be out faster than usual.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
How does that work exactly? You still need a factory and a starport. Cloack won't be out faster than usual.
You're absolutely right =) I'm just establishing that the new cloak shouldn't turn out op. I'm assuming for my post that the current accumulated gas lines up just about perfectly with the cost of every completing building and with cloak, which it won't necessarily do as you said. In that case, one won't even be able to cut time off from the build with the lower cost.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
Ummmm your analysis of the maths is flawed. 640 is to build a banshee and fly it across the map. A faster cloak is only really a factor in the rush if you're proxying it next to their base, which is the strongest argument against shortening the research time, cheaper shouldn't really be a problem.
On June 16 2013 18:56 Hermanoid wrote: The math for how much faster cloak comes out in terms of gas is 100 gas / 242.3 gas per min* = 0.4127 min, which is roughly 24.8 seconds.
Assuming a fast and well executed cloaked banshee would normally hit at roughly 6.40, that time now becomes roughly 6.15. For less precise executions, let's assume the time 6.35.
I want to look primarily at the TvP scenario. I think this build here can be seen as a run-of-the mill gateway expand into robo. As can be seen the observer is started at around 6.20 and will be out at 6.50. This gives the terran roughly 15 seconds of time in the P base unchecked by observers, in which he gets a chance to try to do something with a rush tactic that impacts his economy negatively. That's definately not overly strong oddses.
So, my take on the banshee change is that it should work towards making HotS even deeper in terms of which builds are viable. I'm looking forward to the results.
*based on the amount of gas mined per minute from a saturated geyser according to Liquipedia
Ummmm your analysis of the maths is flawed. 640 is to build a banshee and fly it across the map. A faster cloak is only really a factor in the rush if you're proxying it next to their base, which is the strongest argument against shortening the research time, cheaper shouldn't really be a problem.
The banshee has 50 sec to fly while cloak is finishing (60 sec build time vs. 110 sec research). It'll have little wasted time as a result. And my point gets through. I'm assuming just about ideal timings to eastablish that the new cloak won't be op.
Hellbats and banshees are both fine, they don't need changing. Both of these changes are pretty terrible. Cloak being cheaper does make sense, so there is no need to delay banshee now to get cloak first.
On June 16 2013 17:53 Scones wrote: If you think that changing the cloak research cost by 100/100 is gonna be a massive deal and break the game, then you're delusional
Which do you prefer ... - being harrassed by 1 Banshee OR - being harrassed by 2 Banshees?
With that reduction in cost you can get an additional Banshee for not that much more compared to now AND cloak arrives 20 seconds earlier.
---
Personally I am happy because Blizzards changes sound really ridiculous and will make the game more volatile. This might be enough for people to realize how badly the game is designed and that pushing sooo much for offense will make "random chance" decide games more than actual playing skill. The other option is that players will be pushed into "overdefending" against harrassment which doesnt come and then lose to the big attack at the front. It is a lose-lose design when it comes to quality, because you can hide stuff too easily on the maps which will favor chance more than skill.
I see what you mean, but they havent been buffed to come out quicker. They wont be arriving faster to your base than they ever have before. They will just be able to cloak a bit faster.
EPT
