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On June 10 2013 02:09 -Kyo- wrote:
Honestly... hellbat isn't the problem.. it's the fact you can get any harassment into a base nearly 100% of the time with the speed boost on the medivacs. Anyone who says 'protoss learned to deal with medivacs' either does not understand how the metagame has developed or 2. doesn't realize what units actually make up toss forces in the mid game. It's really depressing, but the vocal minority has been driving the balance in SC2 for quite some time, maybe even since the start of WoL. I really, really feel pro players need to be encouraged more to be open minded and share their thoughts on game balance without stepping outside the bounds of reason.
God, is there a reason why you can only balance whine about how protoss is to weak against everything? The only thing wich people complain here about, is that TvT becomes more and more to this 1 unit gimmic match up.
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I'd be happy with a small tweak to cost instead of some of the drastic changes being recommended. Even changing the cost to 125 minerals will have an impact. If that turned out not to be enough you could go to 150 minerals or consider adjusting something like build time.
Some of the proposed changes seem to be a bit too large imo, I'd rather Blizzard take the safe and steady approach rather than risk nerfing a unit to being useless.
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On June 10 2013 02:18 saddaromma wrote:
have no idea what to do with hellbat.
but if you want blizzard to look at something, they better look at colossi. That unit is so terrible. Forces protoss to play deathball, gateway units have lackluster damage inspite of it, boring units like viking, corruptor and tempest are introduced to the game for the sake of countering it.
/rant.
I hereby coin the term H.G. Wells' Law of Colossus Analogies: As a TL balance thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Colossi or Protoss deathballs approaches one.
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On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote:
I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Blizzard want mech vs Protoss. The change you propose will cause the drops to be very vulnerable against feedback. You could have it that the boosts costs energy but that will also cause bio to be weaker.
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If they had to morph back to hellions before being picked up by a medivac it would be fine, maybe lower the transform time a bit, so now drops look like: drop 4 hellions, morph to hellbats (or not if you prefer), attack.
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Really hard to change the Hellbat without affecting it too adversely in other situations - TvZ, TvP, and TvT mid/lategame (ie. the Hellbat in a straight up fight).
I think Blizzard should just wait a little, and let Terrans refine their anti-drop techniques before nerfing immediately. I think there's real potential in defensive widow mine openings.
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On June 10 2013 02:29 Lock0n wrote:
Hellbat drops are actually very hard to do, it actually requires a sick amount of multitasking and micro and macro to make sure you get the right balance of offense and defence, and separates the good players from the poor. I think hellbat drops are great fun to watch, and there's always an excitement when the drops hit to see how much damage they can do. If anything, it's added more versatility to the matchup, and there is still a large variety in the matchup.
Same was for the 4gate and it was finally changed for the good of the PvP...
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I am a terran player myself. I stated this thread to limit the hellbat change in TvT so we don't bring in balance debate.
I think if somehow hellbats 3 shots workers but still remain the same against other units is probably the most control-able way to balance the unit at first.
I like chaotic early/mid-game in TvT. Must be similar to baneling vs lings war in ZvZ. Chaotic, aggressive early games are fun to watch. But what sucks is Hellbat drops ignore so much map terrain. You just see medivacs ferry hellbats non-stop to the mineral lines. Hellbat is not a dance between your units and your enemies units. It is just dumping them into mineral line! Where is the positioning and strategy in that?
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On June 10 2013 02:17 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 02:11 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Lower damage to 16, with +10 to light. No more double shotting workers, now it takes 3 shots. Same vein the blue flame nerf came through, and was widely successful. yeah. i dont see why this wouldnt work.
Am I missing something or did you just claim that 2×26= less than 40?
If you instead suggested 16 and an additional +10 is you get Infernal Pre-Igniters, that might do what you wanted. 
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We've just now started seeing players but bunkers behind the mineral line, which - as stated in the op - is roughly the same cost as the incoming drop. I'd give it some more time before bringing out the nerf hammer.
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TvT isn't the matchup where hellbats are concerning....
It's like they wanted to make up for removing the terrible fucking idea that was the warhound by warhoundizing the hellbat.
Terrible design for an unintelligent audience.
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As a non mech player on TvT, i gave up trying to counter them cost effectively. From now on ill just 2rax all in every terran on ladder.
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Can anyone post a link with well defended hellbat drop? First only one medivac,then 2 ans 3....Wanna see this.
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On June 10 2013 02:27 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 02:24 Bagi wrote:On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote:
I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier. Remove the biological tag -> hellbats can now tank archons -> colossi are the only protoss unit who can really kill hellbats quickly. As a terran I would love to see that fix happen, but its not without its problems. Hellbats could probably tank Archons better while being healed then not being healed.
Yet medivacs are an investment in their own right and I'm pretty sure that 100/100/2 invested in army instead of healing to make up for extra damage will make a big difference too.
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On June 10 2013 02:34 J.E.G. wrote:
We've just now started seeing players but bunkers behind the mineral line, which - as stated in the op - is roughly the same cost as the incoming drop. I'd give it some more time before bringing out the nerf hammer.
Now just tell me how many workers die before your 4 marines+bunker kill two healed Hellbats.Maybe you got turret(100 mins more) and stll workers die...
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would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
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On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote:
would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
LOL
Edit: It really is the same problem as with the mutalisk. But how to alter the turret in a way that it's only stronger against Hellbat drops? XD
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Remove the biological tag. Regardless, it is a silly unit.
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I feel like the larger issue is the timing just comes too fast to where it's counter-intuitive to not go for HB drops. Maybe Blizzard can remove the ability to get them off reactor (thus making the hellion upgrade which no one gets more desirable).
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Forget about nerfing, the problem with Hellbats isn't that they're too strong; but that it's a dreadful unit on par with the Roach, Marauder and - yes - Warhound. I have hated it since I first saw it, and the way it's insidiously wormed its way into dominating what seems like 2/3rds of all Terran matches in a given tournament has done nothing to disabuse me of the notion. I have about 250 games played in HotS and I've not once made or transformed a Hellbat because the beta already told me all I needed to know - that this piece of shit is anathema to all I find fun, far more so than the others mentioned that are merely boring and lazy. How it passed the beta while the Warhound didn't I'll never know.
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EPT
