Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
It's great that Blizzard held off on the nerf hammer for HOTS to let the metagame settle in. Now that the WCS season 1 is over, maybe it is time to look at Hellbats in TvT?
*This is not a balance talk, but more of a Terran's strategy options comparing Hellbat drop-play to other options. Are we doomed to see Hellbat drops non-stop in TvT?? So, let's talk about Hellbats strictly in TvT and put aside other race balance issues.
Problem: Hellbat drop is so efficient in its potential damage compared to other options in TvT.
Let's compare a Medivac of 8 Marines to 2 Hellbats: 8 Marines, 400 minerals 2 Hellbats, 200 minerals.
8 Marines, 25s x 4 build time 2 Hellbat 30s build time (It is ready to move out and deal massive damage!)
Hellbat drop only needs to drop out 2 units for maximum damage. Marine drop needs to drop out all 8 Marines as well as Stim to get full damage.
This is by far the biggest problem I see. The player can continue to attempt drops even if the opponent has already reacted to stop it. 2 Hellbats drop out so quickly.
Blizzard stated they balanced the game to favor the offensive side, but how much is too much? (SOTG EP94) A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game.
A Hellbat drop is by far the cheapest combo you can send to harass your opponent. It is not heavy in gas cost compared to a banshee.
A turret in the mineral line usually buys more time to react against a drop because it would force the Medivac to drop marines/hellions outside the mineral line, whereas Hellbat drops can ignore that by sacrificing the Medivac to get all units out right at the mineral line.
A turret + viking can completely shut down banshees and most early dropship plays.
The standard setup for Hellbat drops, however, seems to be a bunker and a turret in the mineral line. Bunker (100), 4 x Marine (200), 1 x Turret (100). Just around the same cost as a Hellbat drop.
Not saying Hellbat drops don't require good control, but compared to other forms of harassment, the micro seems to be simpler:
A successful Widow Mine burrow at the mineral takes more commands to execute, but the extra micro does not reward more.
A Banshee kiting her ass off can only 2 hit an SCV.
4 upgraded Blue Flame Hellions chasing all the running SCVs deal just about the same damage as 2 Hellbats.
The stakes are just not as high as losing a medivac full of marines, hellions or a single banshee. Because of the cost and rebuild time.
Metagame Observation: Gas into reactor hellions into armory + reactor factory + starport.
This opener is fairly standard now, since drop-play ignores ground terrain the strength of the build is less effected by map. (Of course, there are some maps where Hellbat drops are less effective, like the cross-spawn Whirlwind)
Opening with Hellbat drops is just so safe, so good and dominant.
So many problems with this unit the more you think about it: I feel the problem lies on its efficiency. It is relatively cheap/fast to get ready to be send out. It can deal damage even after defenses are set up. It is not a big loss even if completely shut down as it guarantees some lost mining time... etc...
Love it or hate it, lets talk about Hellbat!
Poll: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat?
Yes (3024)
82%
No (643)
18%
3667 total votes
Your vote: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat?
I think they should make it a little bit more expensive than it is now, maybe let it cost 125 minerals? It's quite hard to deal with in late game PvT also when it's included in compositions because of how cheap it is.
The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
The only problem with hellbat drops for me is that you need to have quick reactions or you lose everything, if you're paying good attention then you can get away with losing just a couple SCVs.
Personally I don't think they need looking at as it's possible to reduce the damage they do, you just need good reactions and to be prepared.
Edit: I think this attention required bit is a good thing, I only have a problem cause I'm not good enough
"Players were hoping for innovative new mechanics and play, reinvigorating what was becoming a relatively stagnated and uninteresting gain. I can speak from personal experience here, and from watching others play, that most of the HotS excitement died off in about one week"
Couple of months later hellbats form the core of terran play while vipers and swarmhosts are vital in zerg late game.Not bad for a game with stagnant gameplay.Not to mention the beautiful 4th game by innovation with tempest at the wcs finals.
Back to the topic at hand.As for the hellbat meta I think it tends to be a bit imbalanced at this time.Helbats are deadly against any type of bio,can harass worker lines and even absorb damage.I think a lower damage or hp would make them more easy to counter since that incredible aoe damage of theirs is sort of unparaleled in the z and p races.One might argue about oracles doing the same to bio but oracle is mostly an early game allinish strat while hellbats are viable form early to late game and can be massed.I personally see the helbats as a sort of "marine of mech":low price,high damage and viable all game round.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
who cares about TvT? Then answer me this who cares about ZvZ? Blizzard does. The hellbat is too strong and almost everyone knows it nerfing them would at least reduce the amount of strategies revolved around hellbat drop, and direct the meta game into a better place. This thread only talks about the TvT side of the Hellbat, not even including what it can do against Z and P.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
The real issue is that you can build hellbats on their own. They should be only buildable by building hellions and the upgrade.
Hellbats finally give me a way of going mech vs protoss and zerg as well as bio terran without being instantly behind as the composition that should be cost efficient (mech) isn't at all without hellbats.
My personal hope in the case of anything that seems that it may be to strong is...That blizzard has enough foresight and sense that even if they are not publicly saying they are going to adjust something, they are at least internally messing around with ideas should they need to.
With blizzards more wait in see approach in HoTS it's much more likely the game at the end of HoTS is better then it was at the end of WoL; where they were rather quick to nerf things and the game got stagnant at the end. Whether or not the hellbat ends up becoming the only go to unit (creating stagnation strat wise), remains to be seen, it's getting popular but it's not quite at the BL/Infestor level just yet.
Only if it becomes THE option like 99.9% of the time should blizzard be looking at nerfing it.
This is coming from a Zerg player who wouldn't mind one bit if hellbats did get nerfd mind you. Hard to complain about anything that makes my life in game easier
a small change that might help a little is, why on earth are hellbats bio? T_T Removing the heal they get while dropping could be enough to make them a slightly less annoying thing to deal with.
*This is not a balance talk, but more of a Terran's strategy options comparing Hellbat drop-play to other options. Are we doom to see Hellbat drop non-stop in TvT?? So, let's talk about HB strictly in TvT and put aside other race balance.
Poll: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat?
Yes (3024)
82%
No (643)
18%
3667 total votes
Your vote: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat?
Strictly speaking about TvT and hellbat drops, the most skilled player wins, also, as a spectator I find it very entertaining. So, for the sake of balance with the other races let's just not nerf the hellbat, not yet (maybe in Legacy of Void)
I think the medivac healing is the biggest deal but Hellbats are fundamentally too strong anyway. Only minerals for something that mauls zealots, lings, (sort of marines) and is basically even with a roach 1:1.
You can still fit four hellions in a medivac, so while people felt at the time that changing it to two for hellbats might have been enough, it doesn't change the fact that there wouldn't be a problem with four in a medivac if they were appropriately strong.
Avoiding talk of racial balance and instead focussing on for unit design, you can think about units needing to have generally similar strength and/or utility for minerals, gas and supply (maybe build time too) but you can forget about comparing cargo space taken up. How expensive are the other units that only a pair of can fit into transports? Immortals, Archons and Siege Tanks use 4, 4 and 3 supply, cost 250/100, 100/300 and 150/125 and take 55, ~67 (supposing two HT warped in at once) and 45 while Hellbats' stats are 2, 100/0 and 30(also ×2 production with a reactor, which is not possible for tanks).
Isn't it a fundamental flaw to increase the cargo size for a unit that supposedly isn't as strong as the others at that cargo size, in order to try to weaken the unit? Surely it should either - use this cargo size and have its cost significantly increased because it must obviously be worth more resources if it takes up so much supply OR (this one, please) - be appropriately weakened or made more expensive while going back to only using 2 cargo spaces.
For the same cost and supply, 1 zealot and 2 marines both take up two slots (although 4 zerglings use four when logically I guess a pair should use 1 ).
Hellbats are fine just give it more time. Nerf the cooldown time on medivac boosters and we'll be good to go. Hellbats are really immobile without speed medivacs and I don't see the issue with them as I find it relatively easy to spot drops in time to pull workers.
Even if you can't.... bunker 2-3 marines is fine as long as you have a turret as well. We have seen hellbats do almost no damage in TvT when the opponent actually invests in bunkers.
This is coming from a terran player who does Hellbat drops in TvT TvZ into bio and uses hellbats in TvP against chargelot templar
It seems to me that an important part of why the Hellbat is what it is is to encourage mech play. It gives that tech path an easier harass option and with that some mobility. That's also why they can be healed by medivacs imo; So that people are more inclined to build those also (mobility). (That and they tank well (against Zealots) of course).
I think the problem lies less with the hellbats themselves, and more with the early-game out-of-the-box potential of medivacs.
Off the top of my head, a few constructive suggestions - feel free to criticize:
- Remove hellbat's bio tag (simple, but not ideal for TvP & TvZ)
- Make speed-boost accelerate and decelerate in a bell-curve pattern instead of instant speed boost (starts off slowly, but peaks at a faster speed - taking more skill to enter the mineral line at peak speed, and limiting instant-escape potential). Quick MS Paint diagram
- Divide speed-boost and healing into two 'modes', with a transform time like thors. An upgrade enables both at once.
- Increase speed-boost's cooldown slightly, and make it start on cooldown.
It's always possible that someone will come up with a solution to these drops before any change is necessary, so I hope Blizzard takes their time - but if the next 2-3 tournaments' TvTs are like the ones we saw at WCS, something should be done.
Honestly... hellbat isn't the problem.. it's the fact you can get any harassment into a base nearly 100% of the time with the speed boost on the medivacs. Anyone who says 'protoss learned to deal with medivacs' either does not understand how the metagame has developed or 2. doesn't realize what units actually make up toss forces in the mid game. It's really depressing, but the vocal minority has been driving the balance in SC2 for quite some time, maybe even since the start of WoL. I really, really feel pro players need to be encouraged more to be open minded and share their thoughts on game balance without stepping outside the bounds of reason.
The transformation should just add armor rather than HP, remove the bio tag, and maybe enable a blue flame cone or some other spell (napalm grenade?) rather than just being able to a-move and own everything. It makes more intuitive sense that way and I think it would be much more exciting to play with/against and also to spectate.
Lower damage to 16, with +10 to light. No more double shotting workers, now it takes 3 shots. Same vein the blue flame nerf came through, and was widely successful.
On June 10 2013 01:44 Incognoto wrote: I really want to hear the opinion of tip top players on this really.
We already know what Idra thinks of Hellabts and Widow Mines. I'm curious to hear what other pros think.
IdrAs opinions on balance have always been useless, I dont know why you bring him up.
that is neither here nor there. this thread isn't about shitting on idra. i clearly stated that I was curious to know what pro players think of hellbats and i said that idra, as an example, has already stated what he thought about hellbats. idra (ie, most pro players) does have credibility, at least much more than most people posting in this thread. :/
On June 10 2013 02:10 Erik.TheRed wrote: The transformation should just add armor rather than HP, remove the bio tag, and maybe enable a blue flame cone or some other spell (napalm grenade?) rather than just being able to a-move and own everything. It makes more intuitive sense that way and I think it would be much more exciting to play with/against and also to spectate.
The idea was for it to be an A-move unit because terran already had the most difficult to handle lategame army.
On June 10 2013 01:45 Hypemeup wrote: Hellbats are fine.
On June 10 2013 01:44 Incognoto wrote: I really want to hear the opinion of tip top players on this really.
We already know what Idra thinks of Hellabts and Widow Mines. I'm curious to hear what other pros think.
IdrAs opinions on balance have always been useless, I dont know why you bring him up.
that is neither here nor there. this thread isn't about shitting on idra. i clearly stated that I was curious to know what pro players think of hellbats and i said that idra, as an example, has already stated what he thought about hellbats. idra (ie, most pro players) does have credibility, at least much more than most people posting in this thread. :/
You brought up IdrA, I just pointed out that his ideas about balance have always been ridiculous and biased. That is like asking Avilo on terran balance. But I am quite curious what Korean/Kespa pros think about the hellbat.
If you're thinking about nerfing the hellbat, which is the only thing thats keeping terran alive late game against protoss deathballs. Maybe you should consider looking at the fundamental problems of unit design for protoss first i.e. the colossus and warpgate.
The hellbat is there to punish areas that are poorly defended and actually takes a lot of pickup micro to be effective. Not to mention, it has created very entertaining games. Its a worthy replacement of reaver drops
On June 10 2013 02:08 sevia wrote: I think the problem lies less with the hellbats themselves, and more with the early-game out-of-the-box potential of medivacs.
Off the top of my head, a few constructive suggestions - feel free to criticize:
- Remove hellbat's bio tag (simple, but not ideal for TvP & TvZ)
- Make speed-boost accelerate and decelerate in a bell-curve pattern instead of instant speed boost (starts off slowly, but peaks at a faster speed - taking more skill to enter the mineral line at peak speed, and limiting instant-escape potential). Quick MS Paint diagram
- Divide speed-boost and healing into two 'modes', with a transform time like thors. An upgrade enables both at once.
- Increase speed-boost's cooldown slightly, and make it start on cooldown.
It's always possible that someone will come up with a solution to these drops before any change is necessary, so I hope Blizzard takes their time - but if the next 2-3 tournaments' TvTs are like the ones we saw at WCS, something should be done.
I really like your ideas on balancing the medivac boost.
Hellbats are great units, but the only problem is how easily they can access a mineral line thanks to the medivac
On June 10 2013 02:11 iAmJeffReY wrote: Lower damage to 16, with +10 to light. No more double shotting workers, now it takes 3 shots. Same vein the blue flame nerf came through, and was widely successful.
have no idea what to do with hellbat. but if you want blizzard to look at something, they better look at colossi. That unit is so terrible. Forces protoss to play deathball, gateway units have lackluster damage inspite of it, boring units like viking, corruptor and tempest are introduced to the game for the sake of countering it.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
who cares about TvT? Then answer me this who cares about ZvZ? Blizzard does.
Blizzard nerfed mutas in a way that only affected ZvZ. How do you suggest we do the same to hellbats?
Hellbats aren't even comparable to mutas, they are mostly an early game harass unit. Mutas were the only thing you would build in a ZvZ after the ling/bling phase.
I play terran and I can accept a relatively chaotic early/midgame that includes hellbat drops. What I can't accept is protoss/zerg players using this as an excuse to whine about hellbats and suggest sweeping nerfs that would make the unit utterly useless.
As a Terran mech player I agree that Hellbats are almost broken as a worker killer and needs to be nerfed. Remove the bio tag and maybe lower the damage output a little bit.
Then give siege tanks in siege mode increased single target damage or bonus damage vs shields.
The easiest fix would be to just not let you build them and charge a one time gas cost to transform them. That way you have to buy the upgrade, pay say, 50 gas to transform them, and THEN you can drop.
I'd like to see some kind of TvT-specific nerf for hellbats, not really sure how it could be implemented though. The matchup revolves around them far too much right now and has a bad tendency to prevent longer games, which is where all the fun of TvT is.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Remove the biological tag -> hellbats can now tank archons -> colossi are the only protoss unit who can really kill hellbats quickly.
As a terran I would love to see that fix happen, but its not without its problems.
On June 10 2013 02:11 iAmJeffReY wrote: Lower damage to 16, with +10 to light. No more double shotting workers, now it takes 3 shots. Same vein the blue flame nerf came through, and was widely successful.
You realize this would still 2 shot workers. 26 x 2 = 52. Probes/Drones only have 40 hp and SCVs have 45.
At the moment Hellbats do 30 splash damage to workers each attack. That seems much too high for a 100 mineral unit that can be reactored out and has a lower build time than a zealot.
On June 10 2013 01:51 JIJI_ wrote: Pretty much Z, P, non-mech T: hellbat is imba
Mech T: hellbat is fine
I play pure bio TvT... Hellbat is fine as long as you can actually look at the minimap. Also, they don't have stim, so they can't catch up to fleeing SCVs.
I don't think the hellbat is broken. I wouldn't go out and say its perfect either though. Look at?, sure but I wouldn't pressure them into changing anything too drastically just yet.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Remove the biological tag -> hellbats can now tank archons -> colossi are the only protoss unit who can really kill hellbats quickly.
As a terran I would love to see that fix happen, but its not without its problems.
Hellbats could probably tank Archons better while being healed then not being healed.
Not to forget that immortals would do what they do best - wreck mech units.
Hellbat drops are actually very hard to do, it actually requires a sick amount of multitasking and micro and macro to make sure you get the right balance of offense and defence, and separates the good players from the poor. I think hellbat drops are great fun to watch, and there's always an excitement when the drops hit to see how much damage they can do. If anything, it's added more versatility to the matchup, and there is still a large variety in the matchup.
On June 10 2013 02:09 -Kyo- wrote: Honestly... hellbat isn't the problem.. it's the fact you can get any harassment into a base nearly 100% of the time with the speed boost on the medivacs. Anyone who says 'protoss learned to deal with medivacs' either does not understand how the metagame has developed or 2. doesn't realize what units actually make up toss forces in the mid game. It's really depressing, but the vocal minority has been driving the balance in SC2 for quite some time, maybe even since the start of WoL. I really, really feel pro players need to be encouraged more to be open minded and share their thoughts on game balance without stepping outside the bounds of reason.
God, is there a reason why you can only balance whine about how protoss is to weak against everything? The only thing wich people complain here about, is that TvT becomes more and more to this 1 unit gimmic match up.
I'd be happy with a small tweak to cost instead of some of the drastic changes being recommended. Even changing the cost to 125 minerals will have an impact. If that turned out not to be enough you could go to 150 minerals or consider adjusting something like build time.
Some of the proposed changes seem to be a bit too large imo, I'd rather Blizzard take the safe and steady approach rather than risk nerfing a unit to being useless.
On June 10 2013 02:18 saddaromma wrote: have no idea what to do with hellbat. but if you want blizzard to look at something, they better look at colossi. That unit is so terrible. Forces protoss to play deathball, gateway units have lackluster damage inspite of it, boring units like viking, corruptor and tempest are introduced to the game for the sake of countering it.
/rant.
I hereby coin the term H.G. Wells' Law of Colossus Analogies: As a TL balance thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Colossi or Protoss deathballs approaches one.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Blizzard want mech vs Protoss. The change you propose will cause the drops to be very vulnerable against feedback. You could have it that the boosts costs energy but that will also cause bio to be weaker.
If they had to morph back to hellions before being picked up by a medivac it would be fine, maybe lower the transform time a bit, so now drops look like: drop 4 hellions, morph to hellbats (or not if you prefer), attack.
Really hard to change the Hellbat without affecting it too adversely in other situations - TvZ, TvP, and TvT mid/lategame (ie. the Hellbat in a straight up fight).
I think Blizzard should just wait a little, and let Terrans refine their anti-drop techniques before nerfing immediately. I think there's real potential in defensive widow mine openings.
On June 10 2013 02:29 Lock0n wrote: Hellbat drops are actually very hard to do, it actually requires a sick amount of multitasking and micro and macro to make sure you get the right balance of offense and defence, and separates the good players from the poor. I think hellbat drops are great fun to watch, and there's always an excitement when the drops hit to see how much damage they can do. If anything, it's added more versatility to the matchup, and there is still a large variety in the matchup.
Same was for the 4gate and it was finally changed for the good of the PvP...
I am a terran player myself. I stated this thread to limit the hellbat change in TvT so we don't bring in balance debate. I think if somehow hellbats 3 shots workers but still remain the same against other units is probably the most control-able way to balance the unit at first.
I like chaotic early/mid-game in TvT. Must be similar to baneling vs lings war in ZvZ. Chaotic, aggressive early games are fun to watch. But what sucks is Hellbat drops ignore so much map terrain. You just see medivacs ferry hellbats non-stop to the mineral lines. Hellbat is not a dance between your units and your enemies units. It is just dumping them into mineral line! Where is the positioning and strategy in that?
On June 10 2013 02:11 iAmJeffReY wrote: Lower damage to 16, with +10 to light. No more double shotting workers, now it takes 3 shots. Same vein the blue flame nerf came through, and was widely successful.
yeah. i dont see why this wouldnt work.
Am I missing something or did you just claim that 2×26= less than 40? If you instead suggested 16 and an additional +10 is you get Infernal Pre-Igniters, that might do what you wanted.
We've just now started seeing players but bunkers behind the mineral line, which - as stated in the op - is roughly the same cost as the incoming drop. I'd give it some more time before bringing out the nerf hammer.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Remove the biological tag -> hellbats can now tank archons -> colossi are the only protoss unit who can really kill hellbats quickly.
As a terran I would love to see that fix happen, but its not without its problems.
Hellbats could probably tank Archons better while being healed then not being healed.
Yet medivacs are an investment in their own right and I'm pretty sure that 100/100/2 invested in army instead of healing to make up for extra damage will make a big difference too.
On June 10 2013 02:34 J.E.G. wrote: We've just now started seeing players but bunkers behind the mineral line, which - as stated in the op - is roughly the same cost as the incoming drop. I'd give it some more time before bringing out the nerf hammer.
Now just tell me how many workers die before your 4 marines+bunker kill two healed Hellbats.Maybe you got turret(100 mins more) and stll workers die...
I feel like the larger issue is the timing just comes too fast to where it's counter-intuitive to not go for HB drops. Maybe Blizzard can remove the ability to get them off reactor (thus making the hellion upgrade which no one gets more desirable).
Forget about nerfing, the problem with Hellbats isn't that they're too strong; but that it's a dreadful unit on par with the Roach, Marauder and - yes - Warhound. I have hated it since I first saw it, and the way it's insidiously wormed its way into dominating what seems like 2/3rds of all Terran matches in a given tournament has done nothing to disabuse me of the notion. I have about 250 games played in HotS and I've not once made or transformed a Hellbat because the beta already told me all I needed to know - that this piece of shit is anathema to all I find fun, far more so than the others mentioned that are merely boring and lazy. How it passed the beta while the Warhound didn't I'll never know.
I don't like seeing hellbats every game, but as the OP goes over, there's no reason not to when you compared it to it's harass-counterparts. Difficult to make a change that would decrease the gap in effectiveness between hellbat drops and the other forms of harassment without affecting their other in-army uses and balance in other matchups, so I'm not quite sure what should be done.
Ideally I think something needs to be changed, but I'd rather sit and wait for an actual good change than just bug Blizzard to do something rash. I agree it's time for a "review" though.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
That was their reasoning with ZvZ, so why the hell not.
On June 10 2013 02:43 ssxsilver wrote: I feel like the larger issue is the timing just comes too fast to where it's counter-intuitive to not go for HB drops. Maybe Blizzard can remove the ability to get them off reactor (thus making the hellion upgrade which no one gets more desirable).
That's freakin' smart, forcing terrans to get more factories or get an upgrade so it doesn't get stupid as fast as it gets now.
Hellbats are transformed from hellions so it should be a mechanical unit...so how can a medivac heal a fucking car?!? I think that's the biggest problem...
On June 10 2013 02:34 J.E.G. wrote: We've just now started seeing players but bunkers behind the mineral line, which - as stated in the op - is roughly the same cost as the incoming drop. I'd give it some more time before bringing out the nerf hammer.
Now just tell me how many workers die before your 4 marines+bunker kill two healed Hellbats.Maybe you got turret(100 mins more) and stll workers die...
Depends on when you pull your workers, shouldn't be many.
On June 10 2013 02:34 Dvriel wrote: Can anyone post a link with well defended hellbat drop? First only one medivac,then 2 ans 3....Wanna see this.
Turret + WM. Boom1, boom2, no more medivac, no hellbats. Or kill them beforehand with vikings. And in pretty much every pro replay where hellbat drops are used the majority of the drops are well defended.
Personally I have no issues with hellbat drops. Don't use them often myself, and have no problem with defending against them. Now hellbats in a main army just tanking your siege line when they (a-)move forward, that is a whole other story. Let alone when they drop them from medivacs on top of your siege line. That is something I have really issues with countering with bio-mech. But hellbat drops is just a matter of how much you invest in defense.
And lets not forget if I look at the state of SC2 right now, I don't see a reason for any significant nerfs to terran. So for those who do want to heavily nerf the hellbat, also please consider how you would boost terran to compensate.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
That was their reasoning with ZvZ, so why the hell not.
I don't think that's a good idea. You can still easily drop both hellbats in the mineral with speedboost before the medivac dies even if the turret damage is buffed, while marine drops would get even less marines out while dropping, so I think that would do the opposite of wait we want: hellbat drops to not be so much more effective than bio drops. Yes hellbat drops would be slightly weaker, but bio drops would be even weaker.
On June 10 2013 02:45 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Hellbats are transformed from hellions so it should be a mechanical unit...so how can a medivac heal a fucking car?!? I think that's the biggest problem...
Meh, SCVs are also mechanical and biological at the same time. And they aren't just suits either, those are technically vehicles too.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Remove the biological tag -> hellbats can now tank archons -> colossi are the only protoss unit who can really kill hellbats quickly.
As a terran I would love to see that fix happen, but its not without its problems.
Hellbats could probably tank Archons better while being healed then not being healed.
Yet medivacs are an investment in their own right and I'm pretty sure that 100/100/2 invested in army instead of healing to make up for extra damage will make a big difference too.
You have a large amount of medivacs anyway due to your whole non hellcat army being bio :p. Besides there is nothing else to spend the gas on for Terran so I doubt they will cut back on medivacs if Hellbats get moved from a bio tag.
1) Not everyone plays bio, 2-3 base tank/hellbat timings can be very strong 2) A really sturdy hellbat can reduce the need for mass medivacs, instead a bio/hellbat army will be more viking-heavy taking out any colossi instantly
At least in TvP I'm pretty damn sure removing the bio tag would be a buff to the hellbat.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
Well, what's awkward is that hellbats are actually quite 'OP' in other matchups too. It's just that TvT shows a perfect comparasion how well the hellbats scale compared to other T units. I'm not saying that the other units sucks, the terran infantry was already very good but hellbats even tops it.
TvZ - hellbats marine mine is the most ridiculously cost-efficient army comp ever made. Not to mention that it's strong. TvP - hellbats marauder TvT - whatever + hellbats still stronk!
My two suggestions (not original, I know): 1. Increase the cost alot, to 150-200. 2. Require techlab. Both will nerf the hellbat drop but not the unit as an army component. It also has the benefit of basically requiring the transformation upgrade making army movement more dynamic and interesting to watch.
On June 10 2013 02:45 Existor wrote: Banner for good thread :D
I must use your epic picture instead of the shitty one I first thing googled
I like the hellbat a lot in all other forms. I wish they stay the same in most cases. It is really sick to see marauders hellbat vikings in TvP. It is a more robust composition, and definitely fix the late game TvP, mass zealots in WOL.
If hellbat is not biological, I seriously think it is a buff in TvP. Hellbats will soak up all archon shots. Did anyone actually test which hellbat is stronger against archon? Healing bat or non-bio bat?
On June 10 2013 02:34 Sabu113 wrote: TvT isn't the matchup where hellbats are concerning....
It's like they wanted to make up for removing the terrible fucking idea that was the warhound by warhoundizing the hellbat.
Terrible design for an unintelligent audience.
Hellbats are only an issue in TvT on a entertaining viewership level. The problem balance wise comes from the risk vs reward of Hellbat drops in all matchups really. Every tactic should have pros and cons. Hellbats cost 100 minerals and can decimate mineral lines instantly if you arent completely on top of your game. What is the risk in doing them though? It's relatively easy on your apm, it doesn't take you out of your way tech wise (what terran isn't going to make at least a couple of medivacs), if its held perfectly by your opponent it doesn't really put him in an advantageous spot. Why wouldn't you do hellbat drops every game? There is no downside to them and the upside is huge, you can end the game pretty much outright.
On June 10 2013 02:45 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Hellbats are transformed from hellions so it should be a mechanical unit...so how can a medivac heal a fucking car?!? I think that's the biggest problem...
How a fucking green beam shooted from the sky, heals deceases and wounds through the heavy armor of a marauder ?
It doesn't make sense in the first place, so I see no reason why the magical beam couldn't heal a car (unless the car is standing on 4 wheels of course.)
On June 10 2013 02:44 Insurrectionist wrote: Forget about nerfing, the problem with Hellbats isn't that they're too strong; but that it's a dreadful unit on par with the Roach, Marauder and - yes - Warhound. I have hated it since I first saw it, and the way it's insidiously wormed its way into dominating what seems like 2/3rds of all Terran matches in a given tournament has done nothing to disabuse me of the notion. I have about 250 games played in HotS and I've not once made or transformed a Hellbat because the beta already told me all I needed to know - that this piece of shit is anathema to all I find fun, far more so than the others mentioned that are merely boring and lazy. How it passed the beta while the Warhound didn't I'll never know.
Yes, although if there was only some way to make their drop play less ridiculous and effective as it is now while still retaining their mid-game power in a giant army, whether it be hellbat/marauder in tvp or marine/hellbat in tvz or hellbat/mech in tvt. Hellbat drops vs hellbat drops in tvt is getting really ridiculous atm, and it's also not very entertaining to watch either.
I don't understand why you are pinning it on "the Hellbat". It's not Hellbat runby's that are a problem, at all. It's not even Hellbats in armies, we still don't see that very often. People opt for Widow Mines vs Z or just pure Bio vs P more often than not.
It's Hellbats + Medivacs, only. So much so that we see people reactoring out Medivacs against Vikings. Terran simply doesn't have a cost effective way of keeping Medivacs from dropping anything in a mineral line.
Either nerf the Hellbat + Medivac combo, because that's what is strong. Not either unit alone. Or find some way for Terran to more cost effectively deny Medivacs from getting into a mineral line. If I know my opponent is going to fly Medivacs into my mineral line with a Medivac from minute 0, I should have some strategy that is able to deny that.
On June 10 2013 02:52 Mowr wrote: My two suggestions (not original, I know): 1. Increase the cost alot, to 150-200. 2. Require techlab. Both will nerf the hellbat drop but not the unit as an army component. It also has the benefit of basically requiring the transformation upgrade making army movement more dynamic and interesting to watch.
That is just a very bad idea. If you want that, then just remove hellbat alltogether and let it only be a transformation of hellion. (Make hellions from factory, as soon as armory is completed start researching transformation servos, send first medivac to forward hellions, transform them to hellbats, proceed to drop).
Or find some way for Terran to more cost effectively deny Medivacs from getting into a mineral line.
Widow mines.
How exactly is the hellbat a major part of TvP and TvZ excluding Hellbat drop cheeses?
Hellbats have enough of a role outside 'drop cheeses'.
So because the main TvZ composition does not use many hellbats, they have no role besides 'drop cheeses' (which is just another way of saying your are mad about hellbat drops). Does that also mean we already stopped complaining that early marauder/hellbat pushes are OP and uncounterable by zerg and that terrans should feel bad for using it? That went quite fast. Maybe in a few weeks this also won't be a problem for you anymore.
Tie the increased +light damage into blue flame. As mentioned, all that needs to happen is for the number of shots required to kill an SCV to increase a little and the timing required to do big fuck off doom drops to increase a little. More importantly it makes blue flame hellions much more competitive as well as making marines do the same.
Be wary of nerfing it outright because a lot of this clamouring for change is coming from protoss and zerg. Put money half the people in this thread complaining about hellbat "drop wars" are just complaining about hellbat drops, which are very easy to render toothless.
Yeah watching TvT and just seeing hellbats after hellbats was pretty disappointing. I also think they need to be addressed versus Z, not sure against P though because I never play that match up. Not sure how they should go about changing it, but something needs to be done.
Disable medivac boost when medivacs are carrying mechanical units. Done. All it affects is hellbat drops (and thor/hellion drops, hurhur), medivacs can still boost after dropping their cargo, etc.
Lore is ez. Mechanical shit too heavy for medivacs to boost.
It also gives players a strategic choice between faster drops with marines/marauders and more potent drops with hellbats.
might as well nerf it now. i dont want to practice strategies with this unit for over a year, then have it nerfed and be at square one. that would be exactly like WOL and my biggest frustration with this game is the amount of nerfs to terran/buffs to the other races which drastically changed the meta of how TERRANS playl (we saw the same old muta ling bane/double ups into infestors and hive every game, macro collosus into 3 base storm, take a 4th + move out at 3/3.) We still see the same strategies from Z/P.
no one in this tournament defended hellbats even acceptably well, there were way too many losses for this caliber of play in almost every game featuring hellbats. Until players realize that leaving a few supply + a turret/cannon/spore can shut this down cold, hellbats will be OP. People are spoiled and are so used to turrets/cannons/spores+spine defending everything and this is the only reason this poll is so massively in favor of nerfing this unit. it forces all ins constantly because players are bad and can finally be punished for it. l2p or nerf it now, nothing in between
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
DKim said the problem is not the medivac but the burst damage. This is indicated by the times when the scvs run but the medivac ends up dropping the hellbats on the fleeing, stacked up scvs. Due to the burst damage, many scvs still die. It's good tension however, reminds me of the reaver in brood war as you never know if the hellbat will get dropped off on the right spot and get the right shots off.
On June 10 2013 03:17 -Kaiser- wrote: Disable medivac boost when medivacs are carrying mechanical units. Done. All it affects is hellbat drops (and thor/hellion drops, hurhur), medivacs can still boost after dropping their cargo, etc.
Lore is ez. Mechanical shit too heavy for medivacs to boost.
It also gives players a strategic choice between faster drops with marines/marauders and more potent drops with hellbats.
But then you can speed drop 4 marauders and not a single SCV or hellion? Pfff
On June 10 2013 03:18 c0sm0naut wrote: might as well nerf it now. i dont want to practice strategies with this unit for over a year, then have it nerfed and be at square one. that would be exactly like WOL and my biggest frustration with this game is the amount of nerfs to terran/buffs to the other races which drastically changed the meta of how TERRANS playl (we saw the same old muta ling bane/double ups into infestors and hive every game, macro collosus into 3 base storm, take a 4th + move out at 3/3.) We still see the same strategies from Z/P.
no one in this tournament defended hellbats even acceptably well, there were way too many losses for this caliber of play in almost every game featuring hellbats. Until players realize that leaving a few supply + a turret/cannon/spore can shut this down cold. People are spoiled and are so used to turrets/cannons/spores+spine defending everything and this is the only reason this poll is so massively in favor of nerfing this unit. it forces all ins constantly because players are bad and can finally be punished for it. l2p or nerf it now, nothing in between
By the way I'm not joking when I say that even as a plat leaguer you can shut down hellbat "harass" cold with a single turret and a handful of marines. People panic for some reason when facing them which I will never understand. Just use the cold, hard calculus.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
DKim said the problem is not the medivac but the burst damage. This is indicated by the times when the scvs run but the medivac ends up dropping the hellbats on the fleeing, stacked up scvs. Due to the burst damage, many scvs still die. It's good tension however, reminds me of the reaver in brood war as you never know if the hellbat will get dropped off on the right spot and get the right shots off.
Uh reavers can actually miss. When you see a hellbat drop ask yourself this: Does Terran have a bunker with marines, a turret and units both on the ground and in the air to stop this? If not, it will probably do damage.
On June 10 2013 03:22 Fig wrote: One Baneling explodes to do 35 splash damage to light One Hellbat does 30 splash damage to light each attack
so buff hellbat to 35 dmg or what u tryin to say
David Kim buffed Hellbats today giving them +5 damage to light, ability to attack air and flight. When asked why he said, "We have only seen Hellbats used in only 80% of top level TvT's, 60% in TvPs and a pitiful 20% in TvZs. We wanted to increase the Terran offensive options and increase the percentages across the board to 90%."
I was thinking about this on the way to work, especially how awkward some of the things they implemented for hellbats (Biological, only 2 in the medivac) and I was thinking about how they could fix this.
Keep the cost the same Remove the biological from the hellbat, increase its HP to compensate. Decrease the hellbat damage from (18 + 2) to (14 +1), but allow 4 hellbats to go in a medivac.
Maybe the damage nerf is a little too much, but I feel like that way you invest more money into something that is scarier than what we currently have. Finding the right balance of damage for cost would be cool. Nerfing is not really my favourite way to go about balancing the game, and this might make hellbats boring to watch though.
I personally think that blizzard should sit back longer and slowly buff things, like the protoss warp prism buff while keeping an eye on all matchups (including tvt). If TvT stays this way for the long run, maybe try something with the regular hellion or doing something crazy like making landed viking runbys a thing.
On June 10 2013 02:45 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Hellbats are transformed from hellions so it should be a mechanical unit...so how can a medivac heal a fucking car?!? I think that's the biggest problem...
Hellbats are guys in transformed cars. Marines are guys in huge exoskeletons. How does a medivac heal anything with some magic beam of light? Reality is the weakest argument here.
On June 10 2013 02:08 sevia wrote: - Make speed-boost accelerate and decelerate in a bell-curve pattern instead of instant speed boost (starts off slowly, but peaks at a faster speed - taking more skill to enter the mineral line at peak speed, and limiting instant-escape potential). Quick MS Paint diagram
- Divide speed-boost and healing into two 'modes', with a transform time like thors. An upgrade enables both at once.
This almost warrants a thread of it's own :-). Really great idea having accel./decel. be a part of medivac boosting instead of the current insta-increase!
About hellbats I think one of the problems is that 1 medivac+2hellbats only cost 300mins/100gas and have relatively low build time, against the damage they can do. When the player reacts quickly and removes workers in time to avoid any losses the resulting loss of mining time affects him (50% reduction, since it most often hits well before establishing three bases (except for TvZ)). Most often there will be worker losses, because the medivac drops in motion and can follow workers being pulled somewhat. The second problem is the effort going into the drop against the effort going into defending it (this is a general issue with several harras options in SC2, but hellbats seem more problematic). static defense does not really prevent hellbat drops, since the two units are unloaded before the medivac dies and the hellbats themselves have enough HP to stay alive for several devastating attacks on workers.
I like the idea of making the light armor damage bonus require the blue flame upgrade (say 18+4, +additional 6 with blue flame), plus biological needs to be removed. Hellbats are too tanky when being dropped on siege tank lines. It takes equal or more shots to kill a hellbat than to kill nearby siege tanks with tank friendly fire, and that's before factoring in the hellbat's own splash attack. Being healed puts it way over the top.
A few points I'd like to add. First of all I main as Terran, and to hear terrans complain about hellbats in tvt makes me think "how do you think zerg feels?" Most of the issues sited apply to the unit in many matchups. I actually don't feel players are even using them to their full potential, they are not changing them from hellion to hell bat mode at the right times. I think alternating in blue hellion/hellbat drops is more powerful because they have to either pull or split their workers depending on which it is, the wrong choice is disaster. Also, walking them across the map is pretty silly when they go so fast as hellions.
Terrans need to use SENSOR TOWERS more in TvT. It is very very cheap to make a sensor tower compared to the dmg a surprise drop can do to the economy! Furthermore, I feel that getting the upgrade on turret range is well worth it to help crush drops. I also see many terrans making their 3rd's and 4th bases as orbitals. Make them PF's and build extra orbitls for mules in your main. Terrans often have the minerals to burn. A PF is so much safer against raids!
I think a lot of the reasons these things are underutilized is that many players are playing WOL with Hellbats. Instead of HOTS. This mentality and lack of creativity is hampering the races potential imo. But hey who am I? What do I know? This wouldn't be the first time I've posted ideas that got flamed, only to see them become popular or at least utilized months later......
It has been suggested to tweak the dmg output so that it requires 3 "sweeps" to kill a worker. This would make the drops pretty useless as any decent player wouldn't allow you to get more than one sweep from each hellbat before the workers have escaped, hence making it impossible to kill any workers aside from the occasional straggler. Hellbats would probably still have a place as part of an army composition, but the drop potential would be completely removed. Bad idea.
Maybe remove the ability to heal hellbats? That would nerf the drop potential since it would make them a lot easier to kill, but it would also weaken their place as part of an army. I feel this nerf might be too heavy.
The best way would probably to simply make them more expensive, maybe increase their supply cost by one. Another clever idea I heard was to make it so that they can only be made by transforming hellions, with the transformation requiring an upgrade. That upgrade would naturally be done in the armory or tech lab on a factory, with the side effect of making any hellbat drop build significantly slower and weaker, which again might be a nerf too heavy.
I think I would like to see the hellbat transformation upgrade play a bigger role. Maybe making the hellbat cost 100/25 out of the factory, but with the transformation upgrade, you can get it for 100 via hellions. That way it doesn't affect long term play, but you will have to put a high opportunity cost if you want them quicker.
Perhaps have them benefit some how from the blue-flame upgrade. I think stock hellbats are a bit too easy of an investment. At least this way, you have to pour some gas and time via upgrades if you want a drop of doom.
On June 10 2013 03:32 PerryHooter wrote: The best way would probably to simply make them more expensive, maybe increase their supply cost by one. Another clever idea I heard was to make it so that they can only be made by transforming hellions, with the transformation requiring an upgrade. That upgrade would naturally be done in the armory or tech lab on a factory, with the side effect of making any hellbat drop build significantly slower and weaker, which again might be a nerf too heavy.
In other words, bring back the Transformation Servos upgrade version from beta. Which is also clever in that if it's on the factory tech lab, you also limit production of the hellion/hellbat itself, because you can't double-build from that factory.
They really just need to make it so that hellbats cannot be made until the transformation upgrade is researched. This preserves their role as a mech fodder unit and holds back hellbat harassment until a slightly later stage in the game. I never fucking understood why you could build hellions immediately in hellbat mode. It's the simplest change in the world...
On June 10 2013 03:32 PerryHooter wrote: The best way would probably to simply make them more expensive, maybe increase their supply cost by one. Another clever idea I heard was to make it so that they can only be made by transforming hellions, with the transformation requiring an upgrade. That upgrade would naturally be done in the armory or tech lab on a factory, with the side effect of making any hellbat drop build significantly slower and weaker, which again might be a nerf too heavy.
In other words, bring back the Transformation Servos upgrade from beta. Which is also clever in that if it's on the factory tech lab, you also limit production of the hellion/hellbat itself, because you can't double-build from that factory.
I'd make hellbats 100/25 if going this route, while making it free to transform hellions into hellbats after researching the upgrade. It becomes cost-effective to make hellions first, then transform them, after roughly 6-8 hellions (depending how you value gas). It might be kinda weird to have a unit with effectively two different costs, but there's a tradeoff either way you choose to build them.
That would be kind of technical, so you could also just make it cost 25 gas to transform a hellion permanently into a hellbat, and in that case I'd lower the research cost of transform.
On June 10 2013 02:08 sevia wrote: - Make speed-boost accelerate and decelerate in a bell-curve pattern instead of instant speed boost (starts off slowly, but peaks at a faster speed - taking more skill to enter the mineral line at peak speed, and limiting instant-escape potential). Quick MS Paint diagram
- Divide speed-boost and healing into two 'modes', with a transform time like thors. An upgrade enables both at once.
I like this idea a lot. Although we see that hellbat drops are the main problem in tvt, I think nerfing the speedboost of the medivac is a better approach. We often see medivacs boost straight into the mineral line on a one-way mission just to drop off the hellbats. I think nerfing the medivac will fix this problem for the other two matchups as well.
hellbats aren't that great. they are easily kited and very immobile. you guys focus on the wrong unit. the unit that is the problem in tvt is the medivac speeding past turrets and vikings in order to deliver the hellbats to the mineral line.
I was hoping for a genuine Hellbat review. Here's mine:
Hellbat - 9/10
Out of all the units in Terran's arsenal Hellbat has to be my favorite. It's cheap, doesn't cost any gas, can be produced quickly with a reactor add-on, does splash damage and can be healed by medivacs just like bio units. Hellbats also do bonus damage to light units which makes them just perfect for killing enemy workers. One of strategies I often use, with a great success, is dropping Hellbats in enemy mineral lines. Even if I lose the hellbats and sometimes the medivac I usually come out on top as it's really difficult to prevent worker losses, even with static defense. This way I don't have to worry about complex strategic decisions or advanced tactics as I can just annoy my enemies to death with constant hellion drops.
I'm not giving Hellbat a perfect 10, because it's a bit too slow and can't shoot air, which is something Blizzard should consider adding in the future patches. Overall it's an amazing unit though, which has greatly improved my winrates in all matchups. Thanks Blizzard!
On June 10 2013 03:41 chaosfreak11 wrote: Why not just make hellbats unproduceble from the factory? That way the transformation upgrade may be remotely useful.
This.
Also i think they need to reduce hellbats damage against light (or change radius for splash damage). It is a bit awkward to see that they can be cost efficient even if you drop it over 50 lings.
On June 10 2013 03:49 1MaSsan wrote: according to OP, making it so that 4 or 8 hellbat will fit into meviac can fix the problem maybe?
That doesn't seem remotely like what OP said. It does seem like changing it so that it takes the same amount of time to get 2 hellbats out as it does to get 8 marines might be able to fix it though.
In general I don't have a problem with the hellbats. They have a good damage output, but are pretty immobile. The main problem is: They are biological and can be healed by speed medivacs.
I just love it how Zergs and Protosses try to sneak in Hellbatnerfs and pretend to care about TvT. Just admit that you don't give a shit and are only looking for an easier time in your MU.
When people start to learn how to react and scout hellbats will be no problem. Hellbat drops are strong in TvT because of Terran not having good static defense, warp-in capabilities, fast units on creep + Overlords.
Terrans are figuring this out though so nothing needs to happen imo.
Also on a side note, I rarely use hellbat drops myself but I'm pretty good at defending them.
The 1st match of sOs vs INnoVation during recent WCS finals shows exactly how Hellbat's efficiency can be abused. + Show Spoiler +
Even though sOs defends perfectly killing every drop and losing up to 2 probes each time, INnoVation gets to outmacro sOs and few minutes later he comes to sOs's base and simply kills him outright.
On June 10 2013 03:59 Snoodles wrote: I think hellbats need a bit of a buff. Give them blue flame upgrade or let them combine with tanks so that we have tanks that shoot fiery cannonballs.
you're ridiculous
Hellbats need to be able to burrow and have tissue regeneration much more. You have to follow the lore.
On June 10 2013 03:52 Greenei wrote: I just love it how Zergs and Protosses try to sneak in Hellbatnerfs and pretend to care about TvT. Just admit that you don't give a shit and are only looking for an easier time in your MU.
I think someone hellbat drops in every game and is mad.
On June 10 2013 03:59 Snoodles wrote: I think hellbats need a bit of a buff. Give them blue flame upgrade or let them combine with tanks so that we have tanks that shoot fiery cannonballs.
you're ridiculous
Hellbats need to be able to burrow and have tissue regeneration much more. You have to follow the lore.
Shovel mounted on one paw, flame thrower on the other. Would make for an awesome looking miner-badass
On June 10 2013 03:49 1MaSsan wrote: according to OP, making it so that 4 or 8 hellbat will fit into meviac can fix the problem maybe?
Or make it so that you can only fit one marine in the medivac. Boom! Instant max damage! XD
But to make the mega-marine that only can fit 1-per-medevac, you must combine 8 regular marines Power-Rangers style. Takes 5 seconds and units are immobile during animation, which is to balance it out ofc
When I first started facing, it was ridiculously strong. Now after some time I have become much better at dealing with it, it's still strong, but not in a way that it stands out from other things that you can face in this mu. So from my perspective, as time has passed they have become easier to deal with, so maybe they will be less strong in the future? Only time will tell.
Maybe the same is happening in TvT, I have no idea, but logic would dictate that they will become easier to deal with over time.
I say we wait some more time and if it's still by far the best strat in TvT then maybe it's time to mix it up.
At least it isn't as stupid as muta wars were in ZvZ -_-;;
But to be honest, my general stand on balance right now is that the game is almost perfect so I'm quite opposed to any changes right now..
On June 10 2013 04:02 Nah wrote: The 1st match of sOs vs INnoVation during recent WCS finals shows exactly how Hellbat's efficiency can be abused. + Show Spoiler +
Even though sOs defends perfectly killing every drop and losing up to 2 probes each time, INnoVation gets to outmacro sOs and few minutes later he comes to sOs's base and simply kills him outright.
sOs also lost his main nexus to a bio drop a couple minutes before the final attack. His decision making and army positioning weren't as good as they could have been in the final engagement.
He didn't really seem to over-invest in defense (only about 1 cannon at each, a few observers in key positions), and lost fewer than 15 workers overall.
I don't believe hellbats can be directly blamed for that loss, aside to mental factor of needing to defend from something that could decimate your mineral line.
On June 10 2013 03:59 Snoodles wrote: I think hellbats need a bit of a buff. Give them blue flame upgrade or let them combine with tanks so that we have tanks that shoot fiery cannonballs.
you're ridiculous
Hellbats need to be able to burrow and have tissue regeneration much more. You have to follow the lore.
Shovel mounted on one paw, flame thrower on the other. Would make for an awesome looking miner-badass
On June 10 2013 03:49 1MaSsan wrote: according to OP, making it so that 4 or 8 hellbat will fit into meviac can fix the problem maybe?
Or make it so that you can only fit one marine in the medivac. Boom! Instant max damage! XD
But to make the mega-marine that only can fit 1-per-medevac, you must combine 8 regular marines Power-Rangers style. Takes 5 seconds and units are immobile during animation, which is to balance it out ofc
And then bring in a second medivac containing the two combined tanks that form the mega-marine's mega-machine gun.
Also, I feel like people are whining about hellbat drops and neglecting the true problem with Terran, one that is going to become more and more obvious as every ZvT becomes a differently timed roach/bane allin...
I think the best nerf to the hellbat/medivac synergy would be to make dropping a hellbat reset its cooldown. That way there would be a 2 second response time to the hellbats where you could run your scvs before they fired. That would roughly put it on par with oracle/ blue flame hellion harrass.
This has been discussed to death. No nerf will do but making them 3-shoot workers. And that would require a DPS nerf of 1/3 and kill mech entirely. Blizzard messed up with mech and hellbat is the only band-aid that provides a way out.
On June 10 2013 01:34 Gladiator6 wrote: I think they should make it a little bit more expensive than it is now, maybe let it cost 125 minerals? It's quite hard to deal with in late game PvT also when it's included in compositions because of how cheap it is.
any straight nerf to the hellbat dmg or health would pretty much make it obsolete to make for your main army.
i mean hell 1 chargelot and 4 lings with surround already kill 1 hellbat.
given the hellbat is pretty much the only real unit terran gets in hots (mine is meh not a true attacking unit imo) it would be a shame for it to be haphazardly nerfed into extinction the way of the WoL reaper or ghost. rather see synergy with the medivac be toned down or boost be toned down instead of making the only new unit we get pretty much made useless.
Is this really a complaint about a drop that does too much damage? The solution isn't to nerf hellbats but raise the level of play against drops. Sensor towers + vikings + map awareness will put an opponent behind if they decide on this strategy. Widow mines definitely need more exploration as well. If you know hellbats are coming then they should stop working. It is nowhere near an invincible strategy and a competent terran should be able to take an advantage from it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I do think for some maps where bases have irregularly high surface area for drops to enter, hellbats can definitely feel abusive. I still think hellbats are just one of the many dangerous strats that will just be countered with time and experience. I'd rather see something like cheaper sensor towers to encourage more "defensive" plays in TvT.
On June 10 2013 04:02 Nah wrote: The 1st match of sOs vs INnoVation during recent WCS finals shows exactly how Hellbat's efficiency can be abused. + Show Spoiler +
Even though sOs defends perfectly killing every drop and losing up to 2 probes each time, INnoVation gets to outmacro sOs and few minutes later he comes to sOs's base and simply kills him outright.
sOs also lost his main nexus to a bio drop a couple minutes before the final attack. His decision making and army positioning weren't as good as they could have been in the final engagement.
He didn't really seem to over-invest in defense (only about 1 cannon at each, a few observers in key positions), and lost fewer than 15 workers overall.
I don't believe hellbats can be directly blamed for that loss, aside to mental factor of needing to defend from something that could decimate your mineral line.
It didn´t matter that he lost the nexus. The moment he lost the nexus when you looked at the supply tab innovation was already 30 supply ahead before the nexus died.
The problem all the time, even if you defend the drops, you always lose mining time because you withdraw all the time probes. In a pro vs pro situation this comes then down to a 30 supply lead. I think innovation was even in favor in upgrades and worker when i remember right.
Therefore hellbat drops in this games payed well. I mean just do the math if you withdraw a full saturated base. ~1,1 k per minute per worker everytime for lets say 5-15 (or even more) seconds. Now accumulate the time/mins lost everytime a drop happens and then how tech/supply could have been.
On June 10 2013 03:52 Greenei wrote: I just love it how Zergs and Protosses try to sneak in Hellbatnerfs and pretend to care about TvT. Just admit that you don't give a shit and are only looking for an easier time in your MU.
I love how Terrans keep on telling Zergs and Protoss players on how to counter hellbat drops with roaches/stalkers and static D, but somehow similar reactions for a Terran with tanks and bunkers and turrets are out of the question due to the invesment costs and how hellbats dropped on tanks counter them, while somehow Terrans feel like same thing is OK with roaches and stalkers.
But yeah, I think hellbats are fine. They also improved TvT macrogames a lot, where we don't see 20mins of deathball circling until someone fucks up and runs into tanks or forgets to siege anymore. Though the hellbat drop openings into each other are pretty silly...
On June 10 2013 04:10 Qwyn wrote: Also, I feel like people are whining about hellbat drops and neglecting the true problem with Terran, one that is going to become more and more obvious as every ZvT becomes a differently timed roach/bane allin...
Well what did you think would happen when zergs only real aoe gets nerfed to shit?
So i've read this elsewhere and wanted to bring it up as a suggestion;
Hellbats require the upgrade to be produced, But the upgrade can now be researched without armory.
This way, you'll have to dedicate time for the factory on the techlab, Slowing down the production. and delaying the timings a bit. It wouldnt change the later game composition in its strength, but rather push it back abit. which i feel is what is needed to deal with the drops
Why don't you just restore the blue flame bonus to hellbats? With the blue flame upgrade, they do their current damage. Without it, it requires 3 shots to kill workers. That way they aren't too strong in the early game and retain their position in mid-late game armies. Boom, problem solved.
I think you have to be very, VERY careful about nerfing Hellbats. Right now they make early game so exciting to watch, I don't think they need a major nerf, but something minor that makes them easier to counter could be looked at
I think Hellbat drops are a problem in both TvT and ZvT and it's time to do something about it. Last night's TvTs could of been much more entertaining if it wasn't so centered on dropping hellbats. It's interesting once in a while but when it's so strong that it's always used, you know there must be a problem.
On June 10 2013 02:09 -Kyo- wrote: Honestly... hellbat isn't the problem.. it's the fact you can get any harassment into a base nearly 100% of the time with the speed boost on the medivacs. Anyone who says 'protoss learned to deal with medivacs' either does not understand how the metagame has developed or 2. doesn't realize what units actually make up toss forces in the mid game. It's really depressing, but the vocal minority has been driving the balance in SC2 for quite some time, maybe even since the start of WoL. I really, really feel pro players need to be encouraged more to be open minded and share their thoughts on game balance without stepping outside the bounds of reason.
God, is there a reason why you can only balance whine about how protoss is to weak against everything? The only thing wich people complain here about, is that TvT becomes more and more to this 1 unit gimmic match up.
What? Can you find me a post where I 'whine' about balance rather than lay out an explanation and conclusion for why I think it's too strong? And just for the record, I've said many, many times over that I think air toss is still too strong so I don't understand your post very much.
How about instead of trying to attack me look at what I said and provide a reasonable response based on evidence from pro players?
If you look at every match up right now it almost completely revolves around whether the speed medivacs get in or not - regardless of the units; it's not like the problem is exclusive to TvT. Obviously the game will always revolve around drops but the question is if they're too strong or not.
Suggestion: Hellbats require factory with tech lab to be produced. With this change, hellbats will not be massively produced or you have to upgrade also the transformation servos for the helions in order to produce 2 at a time and transform them to hellbats. So the hellbat drop will not be so forgiving as it is now, as you have to invest either to the servos upgrade or to multiple factories with techlabs.
Between the massive amount of HP the healing and the way their splash works I'm finding the biggest problem with hell bats is the sheer amount of lost mining time while I'm dealing with the drops. Stalkers take FOREVER to kill them and I need to keep my probes not mining while dealing with them or sustain massive damage. So the terran more than makes up the 200 minerals for the hellbats in the time I'm required to not be mining from that base.
The fact that hellbat/tank can be caught out of position by rauder/tank compositions but the hellbats, ahving 10more HP, can allow the mech composition to seige up in time that your egnagement doesnt matter is extremely frustrating from a Terran players pt of view. That being said, hellbats also require little to no skill to use effectively.
We got our dark swarm version in PDD and now we have our Reaver drops in form of Hellvacs. Take this BW Zerg and Protoss ! Besides this Hellvacs are extremely hard to control and most of the time just deal damage if your opponent messes up. They are also easy to hold off unless you go for aggression yourself. So it is more a problem of Terrans being used to always attack which carries over into TvT. It is funny though that the 4 slots made Hellbats so much cooler together with Medivacs. But I guess Medivacs will soon need an upgrade for the speed boost. Just like Mutas will need an upgrade for the regene. Oh wait they want to remove upgrades and make early game defense super hard instead of super easy like in WoL. And from the recent Mvp vs Innovation series I would say Hellvacs are not worth it, there Mvp got ahead because of them, but got behind as soon as he tried to do something on his own, which thinned out his defense.
On June 10 2013 04:32 FeyFey wrote: We got our dark swarm version in PDD and now we have our Reaver drops in form of Hellvacs. Take this BW Zerg and Protoss ! Besides this Hellvacs are extremely hard to control and most of the time just deal damage if your opponent messes up. They are also easy to hold off unless you go for aggression yourself. So it is more a problem of Terrans being used to always attack which carries over into TvT. It is funny though that the 4 slots made Hellbats so much cooler together with Medivacs. But I guess Medivacs will soon need an upgrade for the speed boost. Just like Mutas will need an upgrade for the regene. Oh wait they want to remove upgrades and make early game defense super hard instead of super easy like in WoL. And from the recent Mvp vs Innovation series I would say Hellvacs are not worth it, there Mvp got ahead because of them, but got behind as soon as he tried to do something on his own, which thinned out his defense.
On June 10 2013 04:32 FeyFey wrote: We got our dark swarm version in PDD and now we have our Reaver drops in form of Hellvacs. Take this BW Zerg and Protoss ! Besides this Hellvacs are extremely hard to control and most of the time just deal damage if your opponent messes up. They are also easy to hold off unless you go for aggression yourself. So it is more a problem of Terrans being used to always attack which carries over into TvT. It is funny though that the 4 slots made Hellbats so much cooler together with Medivacs. But I guess Medivacs will soon need an upgrade for the speed boost. Just like Mutas will need an upgrade for the regene. Oh wait they want to remove upgrades and make early game defense super hard instead of super easy like in WoL. And from the recent Mvp vs Innovation series I would say Hellvacs are not worth it, there Mvp got ahead because of them, but got behind as soon as he tried to do something on his own, which thinned out his defense.
You heard it here first folks, medivac + hellbat combo will now be termed "hellvacs"
Maybe they could make it so you can only make hellbats from transforming hellions to hellbats, which requires the upgrade from factory, then no nerfs would be needed dmg wise imo.
On June 10 2013 04:24 Steel wrote: I think Hellbat drops are a problem in both TvT and ZvT and it's time to do something about it. Last night's TvTs could of been much more entertaining if it wasn't so centered on dropping hellbats. It's interesting once in a while but when it's so strong that it's always used, you know there must be a problem.
I'm inclined to agree. I thought it was dull as hell and a little bit sad to watch a constant stream of hellbat drops. There's very little investment, very little micro and even at the highest level, eventually one of the pulls isn't quite good enough and the games effectively over. I don't think its entertaining at all. Its the early blue flame helion thing again only worse, its actually easier to do. At best the micro is scooping them back up and boosting to where the scv's ran to and redropping. There's next to no investment so there's little reason to try too hard to get them out.
I think that damage cone is way too big, the splash ends up being absolutely huge and a flank does next to nothing to negate it. Anything that makes micro pointless is bad IMO.
I also don't think the medivac healing adds anything other than in those silly situations where you see a single hellbat sitting there duking it out with a stream of roaches... that just feels silly.
every single one of you guys proposing ridiculous nerfs to the hellbat, reduce the unit right back to what it was originally - the hellion.
but a WORSE hellion with melee range and slow movement speed. The hellbat is *supposed* to own if it can reach its target. And you know what counters hellbats? Oddly enough, the hellion.
On June 10 2013 04:39 D_K_night wrote: every single one of you guys proposing ridiculous nerfs to the hellbat, reduce the unit right back to what it was originally - the hellion.
but a WORSE hellion with melee range and slow movement speed. The hellbat is *supposed* to own if it can reach its target. And you know what counters hellbats? Oddly enough, the hellion.
leave it be
Indeed. The ONLY nerf that seems legitimate at this point is maybe a movement speed nerf. The hellbat drops are "all in" when a turret is up, since it's a guaranteed one way trip. In other matchups, they simply don't do enough damage to everything else to be worth it.
On June 10 2013 03:47 habermas wrote: I was hoping for a genuine Hellbat review. Here's mine:
Hellbat - 9/10
Out of all the units in Terran's arsenal Hellbat has to be my favorite. It's cheap, doesn't cost any gas, can be produced quickly with a reactor add-on, does splash damage and can be healed by medivacs just like bio units. Hellbats also do bonus damage to light units which makes them just perfect for killing enemy workers. One of strategies I often use, with a great success, is dropping Hellbats in enemy mineral lines. Even if I lose the hellbats and sometimes the medivac I usually come out on top as it's really difficult to prevent worker losses, even with static defense. This way I don't have to worry about complex strategic decisions or advanced tactics as I can just annoy my enemies to death with constant hellion drops.
I'm not giving Hellbat a perfect 10, because it's a bit too slow and can't shoot air, which is something Blizzard should consider adding in the future patches. Overall it's an amazing unit though, which has greatly improved my winrates in all matchups. Thanks Blizzard!
I laughed, this was pretty funny. Though, +1 at someone mentioning that mineral line drops in TvT are the same as in the other two match ups
instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT
im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT
im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans
On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote: You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
Mech was always superior to Bio in face to face battles.
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT
im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans
You were serious with those suggestions... ?
sure. Im only talking about PvT and ZvT
in PvT and ZvT, hellbats are extremely powerful in drop tactics.
Many want to NERF the hellbat, but I feel hellbats are balanced in armies and the power comes from the drop tactics.
So my solution was, instead of nerfing the hellbat, why not simply buff the drop tactics of the other 2 races. I buffed their ability to drop by making it cheaper. Now instead of needing 2 warp prisms to drop 4 immortals, you only need 1 prism to drop 4 immortals, so thats 200 mineral cheaper investment to drop a certain amount of power. Or for zerg instead of spending 300/300 to drop some units, you only spend 50/50.
On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote: You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
Mech was always superior to Bio in face to face battles.
Indeed but the difference was that with a rauder/tank army you could always slow and pick away at the army as it cross the map (the other opponent would have to seige unseige) and in doing so you could stim in, kill 10-15 hellions and maybe grab a tank and run back and this would happen for 2-3 minutes as the mech tried to cross the map. NOW if you catch a mech army out of position the hellbats > rauders, more HP so they just stand there healing and your tanks get free seige with negligible losses.
What use to be an interesting MU of a push and shove contest turned into a 1a move across the map with a few occassionaly seiges.
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT
im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans
You were serious with those suggestions... ?
sure. Im only talking about PvT and ZvT
in PvT and ZvT, hellbats are extremely powerful in drop tactics.
Many want to NERF the hellbat, but I feel hellbats are balanced in armies and the power comes from the drop tactics.
So my solution was, instead of nerfing the hellbat, why not simply buff the drop tactics of the other 2 races. I buffed their ability to drop by making it cheaper. Now instead of needing 2 warp prisms to drop 4 immortals, you only need 1 prism to drop 4 immortals, so thats 200 mineral cheaper investment to drop a certain amount of power. Or for zerg instead of spending 300/300 to drop some units, you only spend 50/50.
This is why I've always been an advocate of any balance suggestions being met with your relative league... Those are the two worst suggestions I've ever read regarding a balance of anything... Not only is it terrible, it is completely off topic for this thread and has no barring on the hellbats effectiveness.
At first I thought you were just messing around and trolling... now? My laughter died to a subtle... "He really thinks that's a good idea"
I'm not going to pretend that I have a great insight into top level TvT. But from an obvserving prospective, Hellbats just get boring and they are frustrating to watch. Even with defences in place, a Hellbat drop - which is not a large investment - can decide a game if they get a few big hits off. Although its exciting, it is also a bit bitter to watch a Terran (or another race) to lose because they didn't pull their workers immediately or they were unlucky with some of the worker pathings.
Outside of drops Hellbats are slow, beefy and (don't appear) to require much micro in battles. I like that Hellbats make mech more viable, but I think it is a bit out of hand.
I think I would like to see a change either centred around a direct nerf (such as lowering health, stopping medivac healing, lowering damage) or a change aimed at delaying hellbats (such as requiring certain upgrades for a arc attack or to increase the damage.
Objectively, if I was to say that a unit cost 100 minerals, had 135hp, and did 18(+12 to light) damage, can be healed by medivacs; that does sound overpowered. There needs to be either a greater counterbalance (such as possibly reducing the range or the speed) to those stats, or those stats need to decrease
well obviously it's way too cost effective and even when u dont do direct dmg, you do it on other ways...either hellbats should get nerf dmg and bfh back so dmg with bfh is even to the current one...or bring back that hellbats require upgrade to be made&transformed(maybe put back cost to 100/100).
what i'd like the most is cargo 5/6. we all know it's dumb that hellbat is getting healed but i think it's ok because it gives nice buffer to mech army.what is terrible that u can bomb opponent's army with hellbat drops and that is way too effective, as effective as hellbat drop harrass. this way u could load only 1 hellbat and 2/3marines/mine in medivac...so id like this change the most, hellbat cargo increase to 5 or 6.
On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote: You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
Mech was always superior to Bio in face to face battles.
Indeed but the difference was that with a rauder/tank army you could always slow and pick away at the army as it cross the map (the other opponent would have to seige unseige) and in doing so you could stim in, kill 10-15 hellions and maybe grab a tank and run back and this would happen for 2-3 minutes as the mech tried to cross the map. NOW if you catch a mech army out of position the hellbats > rauders, more HP so they just stand there healing and your tanks get free seige with negligible losses.
What use to be an interesting MU of a push and shove contest turned into a 1a move across the map with a few occassionaly seiges.
On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote: instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops.
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran.
im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT
im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans
You were serious with those suggestions... ?
sure. Im only talking about PvT and ZvT
in PvT and ZvT, hellbats are extremely powerful in drop tactics.
Many want to NERF the hellbat, but I feel hellbats are balanced in armies and the power comes from the drop tactics.
So my solution was, instead of nerfing the hellbat, why not simply buff the drop tactics of the other 2 races. I buffed their ability to drop by making it cheaper. Now instead of needing 2 warp prisms to drop 4 immortals, you only need 1 prism to drop 4 immortals, so thats 200 mineral cheaper investment to drop a certain amount of power. Or for zerg instead of spending 300/300 to drop some units, you only spend 50/50.
This is why I've always been an advocate of any balance suggestions being met with your relative league... Those are the two worst suggestions I've ever read regarding a balance of anything... Not only is it terrible, it is completely off topic for this thread and has no barring on the hellbats effectiveness.
I am master league.
I dont see whats wrong with my logic.
1) I think hellbats are well balanced in combat stats / price / movement speed / damage / etc
2) I think the problems people think exist with hellbats, mainly stem from DROP capability
3) So I think the solution lies in drop capability. either nerf hellbats drop capability, or buff the drop capability of the other 2 races. Either would be a fine solution to me. I honestly dont care. I do feel hellbat drops are a little too strong which is why i support some change in droping mechanics for the races, but I dont think the hellbat itself needs a nerf.
Hellbats are okay for now, balance wise. Players are already starting to adapt to the drops with better map awareness, hellions, and well placed defense. Hellbats actually do require a lot of attention to effectively micro in and out of the medivac.
The problem is that the TvT metagame looks really dumb right now with all of the back and forth dropping. This will change. The hellbat is not the most creatively designed unit, but it is not imbalanced.
On June 10 2013 03:52 Greenei wrote: I just love it how Zergs and Protosses try to sneak in Hellbatnerfs and pretend to care about TvT. Just admit that you don't give a shit and are only looking for an easier time in your MU.
I think someone hellbat drops in every game and is mad.
No. They aren't that great against P and Z. You guys are just too bad to defend them and now give some BS argument why they should be nerfed because of TvT. But most of those proposals are a clear nerf and not something that would only affect TvT like the Sporechange in ZvZ.
I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Cargo 5 would be acceptable for me. A 25 gas cost too. But a health / damage nerf: no, really, no. Then it's just a hellion.
Another acceptable thing would be the transform upgrade: remove the hellbat from the factory, so hellbats can only be made by transforming hellions (which requires the upgrade).
On June 10 2013 01:37 TheSayo182 wrote: the biggest shame is that it doesn't require gas, how can a car who spit fire run without gas?
uhh if it costed gas, then you could jjust by hellions with the transform upgrade and transform them... i guess it matters in the early game though so maybe
hm... and i also wonder how many players that are complaining about hell bats are like plat and lower.... maybe even dia and lower
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
I honestly don't see why Blueflame upgrade isn't required for some of that +Light damage. I mean, why have an upgrade for a unit that doesn't actually upgrade it?
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Lol! How dare you bring logic in here Snowbear?!?!?! Know ye not that those whom reside here don't have the concept of such a thing?
On June 10 2013 05:20 freetgy wrote: you know something is broken, when Hellbats can head on take on marines (which were considered the cause of the most design related balance issues)
It just funny, that Hellbats are so broken, that it even is an issue for Terran, which usally has the best defensive capabilties.
What are the other races supposed to say?
Nothing, because they have much better tools to handle Hellbat drops efficiently.
What I really don't like about the hellbat (besides everything else, especially the stormproof marauder-hellbat composition) is that given a drop, the first choice of action against the line of defense is to drop it in the middle of the defensive line to fuck it up. I mean, small drops are supposed to be fragile and cost-effective. Zealot drops don't last long, but they fuck shit up. Zergling/roach drops don't last long, but they fuck shit up. You can drop hellbats into the middle of a group of marines/zerglings to destroy it, then continue on trucking. It's quite worse than a reaver in BW, where you know that although they are quite powerful, you can kill it or chase it away easily. You can do neither with a hellbat because the best option is for the dropping player to shove the hellbats into your face.
When I saw Innovation always with a well placed bunker and turret just not to completely die from Hellbats I shed a tear..
I still want to know why you should be able to carry Hellbats in Medivacs. If it's whats needed for Mech to be successful well then the problem is the Mech transition and not how much silly damage you could do with Hellbat drops.
I have always thought they should get a damage reduction but be given the blue flame upgrade. That means drops are not as strong opening but still have some utility. It also makes hellions and the transform option more interesting.
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Well, you terrans, were surely not complaining at the beginning of WoL. Hmm, I wonder why?
I said this in another thread, but you're just as bad these zergs defending their OP mutas(vs P, anyway)
You never really needed the medivac buff to begin with and the same can be said mutas.
This hellbat unit is just another warhound in disguise.
On June 10 2013 03:32 Reborn8u wrote: A few points I'd like to add. First of all I main as Terran, and to hear terrans complain about hellbats in tvt makes me think "how do you think zerg feels?" Most of the issues sited apply to the unit in many matchups. I actually don't feel players are even using them to their full potential, they are not changing them from hellion to hell bat mode at the right times. I think alternating in blue hellion/hellbat drops is more powerful because they have to either pull or split their workers depending on which it is, the wrong choice is disaster. Also, walking them across the map is pretty silly when they go so fast as hellions.
Terrans need to use SENSOR TOWERS more in TvT. It is very very cheap to make a sensor tower compared to the dmg a surprise drop can do to the economy! Furthermore, I feel that getting the upgrade on turret range is well worth it to help crush drops. I also see many terrans making their 3rd's and 4th bases as orbitals. Make them PF's and build extra orbitls for mules in your main. Terrans often have the minerals to burn. A PF is so much safer against raids!
I think a lot of the reasons these things are underutilized is that many players are playing WOL with Hellbats. Instead of HOTS. This mentality and lack of creativity is hampering the races potential imo. But hey who am I? What do I know? This wouldn't be the first time I've posted ideas that got flamed, only to see them become popular or at least utilized months later......
You are so damn right!!! I was playing Mech in TvP from the Beta and was dforced to upgrade turrets and build Sensor towers in each base to cover the Warp Prism and finally found this thigs very usefull in TvT as well,when the BIO drops were so common and now the Hellbats. With this help,you just need to see them coming and rect sending vikings or marines to snipe the medivacs incoming...
In PvT i have learned my lesson. When faced with Hell bat drops. 3 cannons in hte mineral line before i even attempt to move out because of these drops.
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Well, you terrans, were surely not complaining at the beginning of WoL. Hmm, I wonder why?
I said this in another thread, but you're just as bad these zergs defending their OP mutas(vs P, anyway)
You never really needed the medivac buff to begin with and the same can be said mutas.
This hellbat unit is just another warhound in disguise.
What has the beginning of WOL to do with this? We don't need a medivac buff, but meanwhile our protoss opponent got a nexus cannon so we can't shine in the midgame (like we should do). Our zerg opponents got better ultralisks, cheaper burrow tech, blind cloud, etc. So again, we don't need the medivac buff?
I'm actually fine with the damage output of the hellbat. I don't think it needs to be nerfed in terms of damage, but I do think it needs to be reclassified as a higher tech unit. Something like a Thor but maybe. Increase its cost and/or its supply.
My main question is if they nerf the hellbat what place will it have?? its not very good outside of drops tbh, so if there was a nerf to damage orcost you would see widow mine and never hellbat. maybe a good idea would be to disable the boost for medivacs while hellbats are in them. this would nerf the drop power, but keep the unit viable.
Why not just make medivac speed boost have a temporary negative impact on speed after the effect wears off.
So basically: - Medivac cruising along at 2.5 speed - Ignite's afterburners to speed up to 4.25 for 8 seconds - After effect wears off, speed is reduced to 1.875 (Battlecruiser speed) for 2-3 seconds
This would still incentivize utilizing afterburners to gtfo of tight spots with drops and would also discourage abusing the boost too much offensively. On the other hand, you could still use it to drop hellbats onto armies as is currently done but once they're dropped the medivacs are sitting ducks.
Im quite sick of TvT hellbat style. To be honest, hell bats shouldn't be able to be loaded into a medivac. I think its fair, you can still load hellions and with good micro do good damage.
Im sick of TvT with hellbat drops as a player and also as a spectator.
I wonder what would happen if you made Hellbats cost say 25 gas or so. This would encourage you to get the transformation upgrade to then make hellions and transform them to save on gas in the long run. Early game though it would tone them down a bit because you couldn't just mineral dump on them and spend your gas on everything else, upgrades/medivacs/tech.
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Well, you terrans, were surely not complaining at the beginning of WoL. Hmm, I wonder why?
I said this in another thread, but you're just as bad these zergs defending their OP mutas(vs P, anyway)
You never really needed the medivac buff to begin with and the same can be said mutas.
This hellbat unit is just another warhound in disguise.
What has the beginning of WOL to do with this? We don't need a medivac buff, but meanwhile our protoss opponent got a nexus cannon so we can't shine in the midgame (like we should do). Our zerg opponents got better ultralisks, cheaper burrow tech, blind cloud, etc. So again, we don't need the medivac buff?
YOU brought up the END of WoL. As for the nexus cannon, it was supposed to keep P from dying to T all ins. (And it doesn't do that well for it's cost) ULTRALISKS CANNOT FLY. It is a weak(at best) comparison.
I think that hellbats make tvt a little boring for the moment, but I can't think of a change that wouldn't impact all the other matchups, which don't need a hellbat change.
On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote: I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Well, you terrans, were surely not complaining at the beginning of WoL. Hmm, I wonder why?
I said this in another thread, but you're just as bad these zergs defending their OP mutas(vs P, anyway)
You never really needed the medivac buff to begin with and the same can be said mutas.
This hellbat unit is just another warhound in disguise.
What has the beginning of WOL to do with this? We don't need a medivac buff, but meanwhile our protoss opponent got a nexus cannon so we can't shine in the midgame (like we should do). Our zerg opponents got better ultralisks, cheaper burrow tech, blind cloud, etc. So again, we don't need the medivac buff?
YOU brought up the END of WoL. As for the nexus cannon, it was supposed to keep P from dying to T all ins. (And it doesn't do that well for it's cost) ULTRALISKS CANNOT FLY. It is a weak(at best) comparison.
Lol nexus cannon is not good at stopping allins for its cost? Are you fucking joking.
Please uninstall starcraft and never set foot in it again.
On June 10 2013 05:47 sparklyresidue wrote: I think that hellbats make tvt a little boring for the moment, but I can't think of a change that wouldn't impact all the other matchups, which don't need a hellbat change.
turrets can attack ground units that are mechanical and biological
I don't want them to nerf the hellbat. I want them to buff stuff around the hellbat. Dota 2 had a bunch of OP heroes. The response, they buffed everyone else is subtle ways and it all better now(or at least there is new broken shit to find).
Nerfs are bad and just make people stop using the unit until they can find a weird role for it to fill. Buffing other units is better. If hellbats drops rock to hard, buff all the base defenses with extra damage for mechanical air units. Do anything but hard nerf the unit.
Hellbats shouldn't be healable by medivacs, that would make the drops FAR more manageable, and it would make hellbats useless in bio compositions = win
It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
On June 10 2013 05:50 SheaR619 wrote: It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
The heal is needed in bio TvP to handle swarms of Zealots with superior upgrades coming from unpunishable super fast forges.
It's a mineral only unit that does splash damage has over 100 hp and can wreck a mineral line in 3 flame bursts. Terran always has a ton of gas to spend on medivacs because of their low gas costing units and not needing to tech insanely high to get to their high damage units. That is just how terran plays.
It's a strong unit that probably needs a gas cost increase. Currently I can do a hellbat drop in plat/diamond and win the game as long as I don't get dropped myself.
On June 10 2013 05:54 Kid-Fox wrote: Prolly the healing at least should be removed. I hear a hellbat healed by a medivac can solo a tank? That's pretty wack
Well if it's healed by a medivac it's not solo. Hellbat+Medivac is 200/100 4supply, Tank is 150/125 3 supply, and unsieged tanks are not the way they are supposed to be used anyways, so seems it seems more than fine to me.
On June 10 2013 05:50 SheaR619 wrote: It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
I don't think that's the core problem in TvT though, medivacs often die to a turret while dropping but the hellbats still manage to kill a ton of workers if the opponent doesn't react quickly. It may be a problem in TvZ, since with proper positioning between mineral fields you just can't kill a hellbat with lings until the medivac run out of energy.
Anyway, I don't like the general concept of terrible terrible damage. In non-pro games it is just frustrating, a couple of seconds too late and you don't even know what has just killed your entire mineral line.
Again, just make it so a +1 weapons upgrade or blue flame is needed to 2-shot workers, so that a hellbat drop comes later in the game and it's a bigger commitment. The base damage may remain as it is, I like when hellbat drops are used to disrupt siege tank lines (which ironically was the purpose of the Warhound!).
I'm surprised by how overwhelmingly this is in favour of yes. I mean, I can understand it being yes favoured. Hellbats are pretty strong in their current incarnation and the combined force of zerg and protoss voters made a 'yes' outcome pretty likely. But the votes would indicate that terrans too think the hellbat needs looking at.
Personally I love the unit as it is currently. Early game TvT is a bit rough but hellbats seem to have made mech so much stronger. TvP and TvZ they don't seem too bad and they've given mid/late game terran an (overdue) buff.
On June 10 2013 03:17 -Kaiser- wrote: Disable medivac boost when medivacs are carrying mechanical units. Done. All it affects is hellbat drops (and thor/hellion drops, hurhur), medivacs can still boost after dropping their cargo, etc.
Lore is ez. Mechanical shit too heavy for medivacs to boost.
It also gives players a strategic choice between faster drops with marines/marauders and more potent drops with hellbats.
I don't think getting rid of the healing is going to fix anything in TvT but will be a big nerf in TvP and TvZ where straight up fighting with hellbats and medivacs is much more important. Maybe the turret needs a buff specifically against medivacs :p.
On June 10 2013 05:50 SheaR619 wrote: It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
I don't think that's the core problem in TvT though, medivacs often die to a turret while dropping but the hellbats still manage to kill a ton of workers if the opponent doesn't react quickly. It may be a problem in TvZ, since with proper positioning between mineral fields you just can't kill a hellbat with lings until the medivac run out of energy.
1. 5% chance that enemy ranged hit insta kills Hellbat AND 2. kills one air unit nearby randomly AND 3. make it global cooldown to avoid mass vaporize of medivacs.
On June 10 2013 05:50 SheaR619 wrote: It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
I don't think that's the core problem in TvT though, medivacs often die to a turret while dropping but the hellbats still manage to kill a ton of workers if the opponent doesn't react quickly. It may be a problem in TvZ, since with proper positioning between mineral fields you just can't kill a hellbat with lings until the medivac run out of energy.
Which isn't a problem since Roaches exist.
That's why I said that it MAY be a problem, design-wise, like every other hard counter in the game.
On June 10 2013 05:50 SheaR619 wrote: It should jsut not get healed...I think that is the main problem with them and why the drop is so powerful. Take away the heal and it not as bad anymore.
The heal is needed in bio TvP to handle swarms of Zealots with superior upgrades coming from unpunishable super fast forges.
I agree with both of you, thats why i think they should make it an upgrade. To discurage drops a bit, or at least make it harder unless you get the upgrade. And if you get it, it takes more damage for it to pay off. And give longer time until healable hellbats would hit the field.
But still making hellbats viable against toss, i dont think getting the upgrade would be that big of a deal. If you are planning to have a hellbat composition against toss.
I would be really curius how this would play out, and if it would discurage helion drops a little / make them less effective. And if people would actualy get the upgrade, if they just planned on dropping them and not actualy using them in army much. Not sure how long the upgrade should take, or the cost, but maybe like 150/150 or 100/100.
You could also combine the upgrade with the transformation upgrade (which we arent seeing alot). That would maybe make it a little more bang for the buck, and we would see more helion transformation hopefully. I would like to see more of it...
I thought the TvT's were the most exciting of the tournament, and I still think TvT is the best match to watch. If not, then TvZ.
.......Come on, this isn't about TvT, but nice try Protoss fans. It would be better to talk about how Protoss could be changed, because they are always the ones so boring to watch with the need to turtle or all-in.
I have no idea how to fix it without screwing up lategame TvP and certain parts of TvZ, but TvT right now is utterly boring to watch, and the emphasis on mech right now is just absurd. I'm sorry, but mech is only entertaining in small doses. If I wanted to see 4 hour turtle fests to play out three games, I'd watch Avilo's stream, not the WCS. In my opinion, the strength of Hellbat openings almost forces Terran players to favour mech (especially on certain maps) which really just makes what was once the best mirror a super drawn out game of turrets and Ravens and all this other boring stuff that grows old really fast.
On June 10 2013 06:12 Too_MuchZerg wrote: More radical solution for Hellbat drop issue.
1. 5% chance that enemy ranged hit insta kills Hellbat AND 2. kills one air unit nearby randomly AND 3. make it global cooldown to avoid mass vaporize of medivacs.
Really hope this is a joke Cause its the absolute worst idea in the thread...
The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
I agree with what XenoRC said. Hellbat is fine and the speedvacs too. Its the combo that is hard to handle. The slow movementspeed that the hellbat has is compensated.
So in general, the hellbat is louzy unit. The speedvac is not a problem, its the compensated movementspeed of hellbats. Fix the combo, fix the world my man
Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
Just a thought from TvP only. Hellbats were supposed to make mech viable. They didn't. Instead, they made bio more powerful. That's not something that needed to be done.
If Hellbats don't serve their purpose of making Mech better TvP, they don't really have a place in the game. If Mech still isn't viable TvP, and Hellbats only make Bio better... Blizzard definitely needs to take a look.
I have had some suggestions before. These include:
1. A gas cost to make 2. Standard Helion damage (before blue flame). The benefit of transforming is more health and a wider spread of damage (still great against lings). Blue flame gives them the same damage against light as Blue Flame on helions. 3. Stop Medivacs from healing them! Put a clock on the Hellbats at least... when you damage them it means something.
On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote: The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price.
There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ.
If we already have a rule for medivacs specially,it wouldn't make it more complicated to just say hellbats cannot be transported. Also removing biological and healing would make the unit more logical, if this makes it too weak, buff it in some other way.
You can even put landed vikings in medivacs, it makes no sense if hellbat was excluded.
If Hellbats don't serve their purpose of making Mech better TvP, they don't really have a place in the game. If Mech still isn't viable TvP, and Hellbats only make Bio better... Blizzard definitely needs to take a look.
I have had some suggestions before. These include:
1. A gas cost to make
So, your solution is nerfing them when used with mech while leaving them alone with bio? (Since mech is gas limitted and bio mineral limitted). That makes no sense.
And really people, opening fast hellbat drop does set you significantly behind compared to other openings. If they don't do real damage it was just a bad trade (and no, you having to walk your workers away for a bit is not real damage).
The hellbat is stupid in every mu as far as I can tell. Zerg players need to go roaches just to be able to not die to the drops and as we saw in the WCS, it is incredibly hard to stop hellbat marauder pushes.
The extreme reaction time you need to prevent massive damage from those drops is the same for all races, while the execution is pretty simple and cheap.
I also think the healing is stupid, mainly because its totally illogical but also because hellbats are cheap and AoE - they don't need to be immortal as well.
Adding a gas cost would be an option, but is probably not doable since hellions can transform into hellbats. Unless that is changed.
And while removing the healing would not weaken the drops it would make mass hellbat drops much less viable since they will be much less effective when facing terran bio for example. Right now it seems in TvT you can totally get away with going mass hellbat because medivacs make up for their immobility and also make them cost-efficient in every battle...
I like the idea of making the medivacs unable to boost when carrying mechanical units
if not then they have to address the damage or health of the hellbat...I think those are okay but one of these has to be altered for the drops to be easier to deal with...either you keep the damage and lower the health (which would probably ruin the initial reason why hellbat exists in hots) or you lower the damage it does and keep the health (make it where it takes 3 or 4 shots on probes)
or you can just buff other race units to combat that but that might alter the other matchups too significantly as this game is nearly perfect when it comes to balance imo
On June 10 2013 06:35 Freeborn wrote: The hellbat is stupid in every mu as far as I can tell. Zerg players need to go roaches just to be able to not die to the drops
So? Certain techs force certain answers units-wise, where is the problem exactly? It's not like defensive Roaches force Zerg to play Roaches/Hydras afterwards...
Not boosting while carrying mech unit solves nothing. They still come to your base and obliterate everything. Once dropped, the medivacs just mostly stand there and don't move, so nerfing boost does nothing, except preventing dropping hellbats on top of other units (which I'm not sure I like or dislike) and maybe delaying the first drop by a bit.
On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote: The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price.
There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ.
I played 3 TvZ today and got dropped three times. The third one was the most fun. I saw the drop coming, had 1 spine + 1 spore, 2 queens and one roach in the mineral line. I still lost 6-8 workers... It just seems a little strong to be able to drop against that and still do damage. But since you might be talking about pros, you could maybe be right.
On June 10 2013 06:42 quirinus wrote: Not boosting while carrying mech unit solves nothing. They still come to your base and obliterate everything. Once dropped, the medivacs just mostly stand there and don't move, so nerfing boost does nothing, except preventing dropping hellbats on top of other units (which I'm not sure I like or dislike) and maybe delaying the first drop by a bit.
I agree changing boost probably won't solve problems. But it's a pretty important part of hellbat drops. The correct hellbat usage is dropping them without using the boost, and when the workers are running away to another base (stacked), pick up, boost, and drop on them to instant all-kill.
On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote: The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price.
There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ.
I played 3 TvZ today and got dropped three times. The third one was the most fun. I saw the drop coming, had 1 spine + 1 spore, 2 queens and one roach in the mineral line. I still lost 6-8 workers... It just seems a little strong to be able to drop against that and still do damage. But since you might be talking about pros, you could maybe be right.
Then he microd his hellbats, while you didn't micro at all.
Maybe nerf initial damage, but allow them to acquire blueflame, much like hellions, to make up for the damage lost via the nerf. This would make them less powerful early game, (which, is where they are most abused, especially in TvT.) while still allowing them to be as good as they should be mid game, for Protoss, and maybe Zerg armies. By the mid game, income should allow you to easily defend if you prepare for them.
On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote: Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
On June 10 2013 06:23 EvanC wrote: Just a thought from TvP only. Hellbats were supposed to make mech viable. They didn't. Instead, they made bio more powerful. That's not something that needed to be done.
If Hellbats don't serve their purpose of making Mech better TvP, they don't really have a place in the game. If Mech still isn't viable TvP, and Hellbats only make Bio better... Blizzard definitely needs to take a look.
I have had some suggestions before. These include:
1. A gas cost to make 2. Standard Helion damage (before blue flame). The benefit of transforming is more health and a wider spread of damage (still great against lings). Blue flame gives them the same damage against light as Blue Flame on helions. 3. Stop Medivacs from healing them! Put a clock on the Hellbats at least... when you damage them it means something.
What do you guys think?
Mech IS VIABLE DUE to Hellbats and Speedvacs.I use medivacs with mines with the WM upgrade to keep the protoss home,while building army of Hellbat/tank/Viking and push when maxed,preparing Air transition home.The hellbats are what Mech needed to allow the siege lines survive the Chargelots/Archon/Immortal and are the perfect buffer to all of this.In my TvP I only use Medivacs for drops,not to heal the hellbats in fight...so the "healing" can be removed perfectly
On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote: Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
Why not lower their damage too, the unit still seems viable with your two suggested nerfs (which is obviously a major drawback).
Most changes suggested are massive sweeping ones that would have horrible repercussions on balance. At most the change should be something small, such as larger units taking longer to unload from transports (IE, 1 hellbat takes as long as 2 hellions takes as long as 4 marines). Realistically the only issue with Hellbat drops is that even if your Medivac gets taken out, you're going to drop most of your payload regardless, whilst other drops take much longer to activate.
The problem with Hellbat drops is that they do damage in 90% of the time. As long as the medivac drops them on the ground its guaranteed damage. The way that Innovation is doing it is really funny too... He just sends one drop after another and is not even trying to hide them. After the initial drops every single medivac is sent through the middle of the map... and he never stops. Its like conveyer of doom. If you ask me(just an opinion of a humble protoss player) the hellbat has 2 problems: 1)Too much HP(with heal on top of that) 2)Too much damage One of these should go. At the end of the day David Kim knows best, so I'm not worried
Imo, the overall problem is the overwhelming mobility of the booster that makes drops early game so hard to stop and prevent taking damage. Personally the hellbats is kind of okay unit, still silly that it get healed but I could live with that. Nerfing the booster of the medivac seem more logical to me as that is the main issue, imo. So I would suggest to lower the duration of the booster and not change the hellbat.
On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote: Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
Why not lower their damage too, the unit still seems viable with your two suggested nerfs (which is obviously a major drawback).
nvm not reading what you say right, but lol i dont want to completely gut them which you think i do. Also increasing cost has to happen somewhere imo since they are so cost efficient, and i dont really think a mineral cost increase is a big deal unless it goes to 175/200 minerals per hellbat.
On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote: Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
Why not lower their damage too, the unit still seems viable with your two suggested nerfs (which is obviously a major drawback).
nvm not reading what you say right, but lol i dont want to completely gut them which you think i do. Also increasing cost has to happen somewhere imo since they are so cost efficient, and i dont really think a mineral cost increase is a big deal unless it goes to 175/200 minerals per hellbat.
No Terran would ever pay 100/50 for a Hellbat which can't be healed.
I know whats really on all of our minds. We all know that there's only one thing that can truly bring balance to the game and its name is the Warhound. I know David Kim is just too shy to bring it up but I think if we really could show our support to him of how much we really want this fantastic unit back then maybe there is chance that this game could be saved.
On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote: Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
Why not lower their damage too, the unit still seems viable with your two suggested nerfs (which is obviously a major drawback).
nvm not reading what you say right, but lol i dont want to completely gut them which you think i do. Also increasing cost has to happen somewhere imo since they are so cost efficient, and i dont really think a mineral cost increase is a big deal unless it goes to 175/200 minerals per hellbat.
No Terran would ever pay 100/50 for a Hellbat which can't be healed.
if it can still outright win them the game from a drop then we would still see early timings although a little later.
On June 10 2013 06:35 Freeborn wrote: The hellbat is stupid in every mu as far as I can tell. Zerg players need to go roaches just to be able to not die to the drops
So? Certain techs force certain answers units-wise, where is the problem exactly? It's not like defensive Roaches force Zerg to play Roaches/Hydras afterwards...
I never like the idea of nerfing something. Instead I think Blizzard should look at buffing protoss to deal with the Hellbats more efficiently or a way to make dropping hellbats a risk for Terran early on. Not only this but somehow find a way to make mech viable versus toss (or at least top level) The reason why I say this is b.c I think if we nerf them we will just see the same old bio every game or possibly bio mech mix in that's become popular lately.
On June 10 2013 07:02 Pr0wler wrote: The problem with Hellbat drops is that they do damage in 90% of the time. As long as the medivac drops them on the ground its guaranteed damage. The way that Innovation is doing it is really funny too... He just sends one drop after another and is not even trying to hide them. After the initial drops every single medivac is sent through the middle of the map... and he never stops. Its like conveyer of doom. If you ask me(just an opinion of a humble protoss player) the hellbat has 2 problems: 1)Too much HP(with heal on top of that) 2)Too much damage One of these should go. At the end of the day David Kim knows best, so I'm not worried
So you say that the problem is that it's too strong as a harass unit. Then you proceed to nerf it, so it's useless in an army. Why not change the cargo space to 5? That would make it a much weaker harass unit, but still a unit that is decent in an army.
Hellbats require tech lab, this slows down early game production of hellbats and prevents the stream of hellbats in medivacs flying to the enemy base.
If you want reactor'd hellbats you have to get the upgrade to transform hellions, so in mid game the tech lab req doesnt affect anything. Just make the upgrade research time reasonably long and from the armory.
when compared to p v p or z v z, hellbats in t v t are not that broken.
the problem in TvT is the hellbat everywhere. Seriously look at MVP vs Innovation the two best terran. What they just did was hellbat drop and to defend hellbat drop they use..... defensive Hellbat drop WTF!!!!!! Seriously this TvT is a total nonsense right now it's like there is 3 units in the MU : hellbat medivac and vikings to shoot at hellbat drops. and the worst in this it promotes the mech vs mech which is one of the most boring thing to watch.
On June 10 2013 02:04 HomeWorld wrote: Strictly speaking about TvT and hellbat drops, the most skilled player wins, also, as a spectator I find it very entertaining. So, for the sake of balance with the other races let's just not nerf the hellbat, not yet (maybe in Legacy of Void)
Yes, it may be entertaining for some people, but not for the players. I can see it now... all the Terrans who have to deal with hellbats are slowly dying from it. All while we watch in joy at their agony. They are slaves to the viewer, much like actors in a circus.
On June 10 2013 07:02 Pr0wler wrote: The problem with Hellbat drops is that they do damage in 90% of the time. As long as the medivac drops them on the ground its guaranteed damage. The way that Innovation is doing it is really funny too... He just sends one drop after another and is not even trying to hide them. After the initial drops every single medivac is sent through the middle of the map... and he never stops. Its like conveyer of doom. If you ask me(just an opinion of a humble protoss player) the hellbat has 2 problems: 1)Too much HP(with heal on top of that) 2)Too much damage One of these should go. At the end of the day David Kim knows best, so I'm not worried
So you say that the problem is that it's too strong as a harass unit. Then you proceed to nerf it, so it's useless in an army. Why not change the cargo space to 5? That would make it a much weaker harass unit, but still a unit that is decent in an army.
Or why not make it so it kills workers in 3 shots, or just dies faster ? That rewards the players that can react faster to the drop and punishes the ones that are slow. I never said that the only problem I see is the harass aspect. 5 cargo space is just dumb... It kills this tactical move entirely, kills the hellbat drops on tanks in mech vs mech/mech-bio, kills hellbat drops on top of swarm hosts etc etc.
Watching the WCS games this weekend between the creme de la creme in attendance, it still seems like players are getting a hang on dealing with hellbats. I think given a few more months, they will be insanely good, but only if unscouted or something like that. I think they can only continue their reign of terror for so long before people get pretty decent at dealing with them, assuming they know they're coming.
On June 10 2013 05:34 dnld12 wrote: In PvT i have learned my lesson. When faced with Hell bat drops. 3 cannons in hte mineral line before i even attempt to move out because of these drops.
Yep. That's fine. Do you think terrans get a planetary fortress for fun or what? I hellbat dropped a platinum zerg and his direct response was a spore and one (yes, one) spine crawler. That was enough to completely decimate my drop. I did bits of damage, maybe one or two drones but certainly nowhere near as much as an 8 marine drop.
A single bunker with 4 marines or a turret + whatever units you have handy is enough to kill off any hellbat drop you would care to do. If they are that intent on mass hellbat drops then just overwhelm them with stalkers/roaches/whatever.
People need to stop playing so damn greedy.
What's more, it's not like hellbats and medivacs are free. You kill a medivac with a pair of hellbats, that's 300/100 gone right there. Kill two, that's 600/200. I think that's worth a spore and a spine, don't you?
They should definitely take a look at Helbats (especially in TvT), but to be honest I'm more worried about Void Rays in PvZ... Void Rays are kind of silly and they aren't fun to play or to watch at all. It's like watching a bronze league player massing one unit then a moving.
i think it's one of the cases that it's a lot harder to defend the drops then then execute, if your'e not paying attention for 2 seconds you're whole mineral line is gone and as a spectator it's gets a little bit boring when terrans are going hb drops 80 percent of the games
On June 10 2013 05:34 dnld12 wrote: In PvT i have learned my lesson. When faced with Hell bat drops. 3 cannons in hte mineral line before i even attempt to move out because of these drops.
Yep. That's fine. Do you think terrans get a planetary fortress for fun or what? I hellbat dropped a platinum zerg and his direct response was a spore and one (yes, one) spine crawler. That was enough to completely decimate my drop. I did bits of damage, maybe one or two drones but certainly nowhere near as much as an 8 marine drop.
A single bunker with 4 marines or a turret + whatever units you have handy is enough to kill off any hellbat drop you would care to do. If they are that intent on mass hellbat drops then just overwhelm them with stalkers/roaches/whatever.
People need to stop playing so damn greedy.
What's more, it's not like hellbats and medivacs are free. You kill a medivac with a pair of hellbats, that's 300/100 gone right there. Kill two, that's 600/200. I think that's worth a spore and a spine, don't you?
your in platinum.... I made a na account and 6 drone rushed and won the first 14 games... At that skill level balance does not really matter.
The point is the hellbat is too cost efficient. For 100 minerals they are too good. Skilled players can drop them and then out macro their opponent. Even if you kill 0 workers, they either lost mining time or lost mining time+ invested in static d. With medivac boost it is easy to look away for a second and lose workers. Not to mention they have do well vs units that are supposed to counter them.
I don't think people are fully utilizing the widow mine which is a great counter to the drops. One viking + one widow mine completely annuls the first drop, and mines are cheap enough and effective enough throughout the game so you are not at a disadvantage building them. Most maps you can pretty accurately determine where their Medi is going to come into your base from.
I do think it is pretty silly from a lore perspective for Medivacs being able to heal hellbats. From a gameplay perspective, it would hurt more in TvZ than in any other MU because they would lose some effectiveness against lings.
On June 10 2013 07:51 sparklyresidue wrote: Watching the WCS games this weekend between the creme de la creme in attendance, it still seems like players are getting a hang on dealing with hellbats. I think given a few more months, they will be insanely good, but only if unscouted or something like that. I think they can only continue their reign of terror for so long before people get pretty decent at dealing with them, assuming they know they're coming.
I think it's exactly the opposite.
It's more down to terran learning how to implement hellbats on their strategy than people learning how to fight it, see hellbat drops, just the worker mineral pull is already 100-120 mineral damage, you add up occasional worker kills, force of static defense you come to the conclusion why the hell not drop them?
The unit is just so good if you can force engagements with other mineral units, maybe if zealots and zerglings had higher range, but they don't so adding 0/0 hellbats to whatever comp always seems worthwhile, I don't think it's possible to micro around it either.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
Except hellbat is a problem in other MU as well....so yes, hellbat does need to be looked at. Way too cost efficient for what it is
Not saying this is the end all be all of the discussion but Demu himself just stated he felt Hellbat drops are too strong. Good to hear from a pro, particularly one of the best Foreign Terrans.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
Except hellbat is a problem in other MU as well....so yes, hellbat does need to be looked at. Way too cost efficient for what it is
How is it a problem in other MU's? Terrans are doing very poorly against Z and P.
On June 10 2013 05:34 dnld12 wrote: In PvT i have learned my lesson. When faced with Hell bat drops. 3 cannons in hte mineral line before i even attempt to move out because of these drops.
Yep. That's fine. Do you think terrans get a planetary fortress for fun or what? I hellbat dropped a platinum zerg and his direct response was a spore and one (yes, one) spine crawler. That was enough to completely decimate my drop. I did bits of damage, maybe one or two drones but certainly nowhere near as much as an 8 marine drop.
A single bunker with 4 marines or a turret + whatever units you have handy is enough to kill off any hellbat drop you would care to do. If they are that intent on mass hellbat drops then just overwhelm them with stalkers/roaches/whatever.
People need to stop playing so damn greedy.
What's more, it's not like hellbats and medivacs are free. You kill a medivac with a pair of hellbats, that's 300/100 gone right there. Kill two, that's 600/200. I think that's worth a spore and a spine, don't you?
Well medivacs are used in main army regardless since they're also healers so u gotta take that out of equation. And you should only factor in 1 drop units, meaning only 2 hellbats (enough to decimate mineral line) so thats only 200 mineral cost.
So its 200 minerals vs cost of spine+crawler+2 drones used to build them. Now we can see what all the fuss is about
Just watch Bogus vs sOs, defending those drops (perfectly) cost a lot to sOs, and Bogus got his 3rd very fast and safe while taking a big suply leads (20-30 suply). Hellbats are borderline op in PvT too.
On June 10 2013 05:34 dnld12 wrote: In PvT i have learned my lesson. When faced with Hell bat drops. 3 cannons in hte mineral line before i even attempt to move out because of these drops.
Yep. That's fine. Do you think terrans get a planetary fortress for fun or what? I hellbat dropped a platinum zerg and his direct response was a spore and one (yes, one) spine crawler. That was enough to completely decimate my drop. I did bits of damage, maybe one or two drones but certainly nowhere near as much as an 8 marine drop.
A single bunker with 4 marines or a turret + whatever units you have handy is enough to kill off any hellbat drop you would care to do. If they are that intent on mass hellbat drops then just overwhelm them with stalkers/roaches/whatever.
People need to stop playing so damn greedy.
What's more, it's not like hellbats and medivacs are free. You kill a medivac with a pair of hellbats, that's 300/100 gone right there. Kill two, that's 600/200. I think that's worth a spore and a spine, don't you?
Well medivacs are used in main army regardless since they're also healers so u gotta take that out of equation. And you should only factor in 1 drop units, meaning only 2 hellbats (enough to decimate mineral line) so thats only 200 mineral cost.
So its 200 minerals vs cost of spine+crawler+2 drones used to build them. Now we can see what all the fuss is about
That must be why Zergs are doing horribly as of late...
i really am not sure why they don't consider some cost to transform, like maybe 25 gas to enable transformation for a hellbat (kinda like baneling) and 50 gas to build directly? something like that could be toyed around with i'm sure
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
Except hellbat is a problem in other MU as well....so yes, hellbat does need to be looked at. Way too cost efficient for what it is
How is it a problem in other MU's? Terrans are doing very poorly against Z and P.
Not that I agree with this statement at all, but it's largely irrelevant. You can have below 50% winrate and still have broken units. If TvX was terran dominating early and X dominating late, but the matchup was 50% all across the board I wouldn't call that balanced. If what you say were true then I believe hellbats still need something done to them and perhaps buff T some other way.
On June 10 2013 08:26 Belha wrote: Is not only TvT.
Just watch Bogus vs sOs, defending those drops (perfectly) cost a lot to sOs, and Bogus got his 3rd very fast and safe while taking a big suply leads (20-30 suply). Hellbats are borderline op in PvT too.
Two Cannons = a lot? Terran taking his third before Protoss and being up in supply is nothing new.
Lolol just played a couple TvTs. All Hellbat drops. Don't even bother trying to defend. I just went straight for their gut and hope I can do just as much damage, which luckily I did. Hellbats seriously need to be nerfed. I'd like to have the bio tag, and damage vs light nerfed.
On June 10 2013 08:26 Belha wrote: Is not only TvT.
Just watch Bogus vs sOs, defending those drops (perfectly) cost a lot to sOs, and Bogus got his 3rd very fast and safe while taking a big suply leads (20-30 suply). Hellbats are borderline op in PvT too.
Two Cannons = a lot? Terran taking his third before Protoss and being up in supply is nothing new.
Faster third isn't a big deal, but being up 30 supply definitely is, unless the Protoss is going for a Liquid Hero type build.
Maybe just lengthen the cooldown on medivac boost. It seems like medivacs are boosting almost half the time. The medivac boosts to get into the base, then boosts on top of the workers, then boosts again to get out all in the same minute. Make the boost more of a decision. So you could use it to boost into the base OR boost on top of the workers OR boost out of the base.
make the medivac boost upgradable at starport tech lab and i think this fixes the issue. its not the hellbats that are the problem, its their mobility with warp speed medivacs.
Alright, this is what clearly needs to be done. First off, no changes to any units at all. Instead, Blizzard should implement an achievement called something like..."Defense of Awesomeness". This achievement can only be acquired by successfully defending against your opponents Hellbat drops and continuing on to win the match. This must be achieved in at least 10 different matches on ladder and must be performed at least once with each race. Once that is done you will then be granted the ability to perform Hellbat drops yourself. This change will surely make everyone and their grandmother hate the living shit out of Hellbats and the bitch flood that follows will force a change once and for all.
either remove the biological attribute or require the transformation servos. they have their place in the later stages of all matchups, but as an early game unit they're just too strong and punishing.
1. Hellbat + Medivac drop - boosters negate static defence, and Hellbat splash does a lot of damage 2. With healing, Hellbats tank far too cost effectively for a mineral only unit.
Therefore: the Medivac is the problem (in all 3 matchups) rather than the Hellbat directly - the synergy is just far too strong.
The other problem with the speedboost is the retention of medivacs into late game is far higher than it was in WoL, this makes bio based strategies significantly stronger in the mid to late game. Also means with Hellbats being minerals only, Terran can drop the Hellbats, sac them to save the medivac and be ahead through (a) retaining the Medivac, (b) Worker kills, (c) Lost mining time through worker pull.
It is a little more of a commitment to go early hellbat drops than other drops, since you have to buy a quick armory to get hellbats. So that's like 150 gas extra for the armory, right (don't play terran)? Don't know how much that actually influences the discussion, but I feel like it should be said.
The problem with hellbats and with hellions is that they are built to fulfill the role that two different units fulfilled in BW. This is a huge design flaw in sc2 in my opinion.
Hellbats and to a lesser degree hellions are supposed to be: 1. Vultures: a mineral dump for a mech army with high speed and harassment capabilities. They have upgrades for speed and to plant spidermines etc. This was really interesting and led to innovative plays.
2. Firebat: infantry unit used straight line aoe. This unit was slow (without stim) and was able to effectively counter light units such as zerglings. Oh the firebat also cost gas.
The real issue here is that hellions and hellbats come into the game way too fast. Because they are mineral only, this leaves the terran an avenue to tech straight to medivacs (consolidated medic and dropship, which imo was not a good idea) and start harass. In my opinion hellions should cost 25 gas much like firebats did. This would solve a lot of issues.
-Make it costs gas; -Make the damage output be that high only if blue flame is researched, -Transformation Servos as a requirement to produce Hellbats;
Medivac boost makes hellbat drop comes way too early, pick up and reposition the drop becomes too easy compared to the defending side, the static defense needed to defend early hellbat drop is really high while hellbat drop is by no means an all in type of early aggression.
Personally I think if the medivac boost is slower or there is a longer cool down or shorter duration, then hellbat drop would be ok.
Medivacs are also a problem, but we knew that DURING the BETA stages. I guess the community is the type who needs to learns these things the hard way first.
I'm not happy with hellbats in TvT (since they are dominating the matchup, doing anything else means loosing) but other matchups are really balanced atm. Doing anything to hellbats to fix TvT will screw with the other matchups and screw the balance.
Making hellbats cost gas is pretty bad. The problem with hellbats is that they are tanky light units that just about do better dps than even roaches. This is pretty ridiculous. From a balance standpoint, there's no actual weakness to the hellbats for terrans or protoss. Zerg has banelings, but that's it.
You'll need to give a viable weakness to the hellbats for both Protoss and Terrans. Or you could reduce the damage and make blue flamed upgrades actually help deal extra damage.
On June 10 2013 09:14 Kvz wrote: The problem with hellbats and with hellions is that they are built to fulfill the role that two different units fulfilled in BW. This is a huge design flaw in sc2 in my opinion.
Hellbats and to a lesser degree hellions are supposed to be: 1. Vultures: a mineral dump for a mech army with high speed and harassment capabilities. They have upgrades for speed and to plant spidermines etc. This was really interesting and led to innovative plays.
2. Firebat: infantry unit used straight line aoe. This unit was slow (without stim) and was able to effectively counter light units such as zerglings. Oh the firebat also cost gas.
The real issue here is that hellions and hellbats come into the game way too fast. Because they are mineral only, this leaves the terran an avenue to tech straight to medivacs (consolidated medic and dropship, which imo was not a good idea) and start harass. In my opinion hellions should cost 25 gas much like firebats did. This would solve a lot of issues.
lol cmon now. this is just stupid. regular hellions have had their place in the game for years now, there's no need to change the cost to both units when we're capable of making cleaner changes that address the early game directly.
hellbats i really don't like a gas change just because it's going to make the whole transformation relationship really weird, but i'd be kind of open to it.
Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.
i think they really need to change it back to mech, it would make the drops weaker which is the main problem with them and it would also make mech more viable vs protoss as archons wouldnt do extra damage to them
This is an unrelated issue. When a player has time to prepare for a best of 1, Protoss shines because of the variety of timing attacks Protoss can do and engineer. This is due in part to the fact that they have the only macro mechanic which can speed a long units or tech, and not just help them bring in more income.
I'm thinking decreasing hellbat movement speed on the PTR could yield some really interesting results
Would increase viability of hydralisks being used as anti-air
Even though siege tanks are the main unit to help against hydralisk, hellbats are certainly used mid-engagement. With this change hydras could be used as defense, but able to move out of the army in engagements until tanks are taken out. Zerg has recently been a little forced into a bane/ultra running around the base to defend drops, with a little muta help. Considering hydras have fantastic DPS to air and the more viable +1 range upgrade they could be used in small numbers for base defense- especially killing the medivac before it can drop on them
Would decrease hellbat's viability in drops on the mineral line
When hellbat drops still occur in this change, they would require much more micro by the terran player player (and very visible micro as well- fun to watch). To keep the hellbats from being killed before they can actually engage after workers are pulled (due to the low speed), terrans would have to pick them up and drop them on the enemy again. The defender would most likely spread their units away from the hellbat's AoE so the terran would have to pick them up numerous times to keep the engagement happening.
Would keep hellbats viable against chargelots:
The need for chargelots has been keeping protoss on gateway tech, and also keeping terran away from mech in TvP. It could be very interesting to see what happens when people experiment with new tech trees in that matchup
On June 10 2013 09:49 EFermi wrote: Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.
Yeah I guess we can leave the cheap, extremely tanky close range units with the ability to travel quickly when teched into to Zealots and Roaches.
As a terran who thinks protoss is a stupid race, I agree hellbats should be nerfed somehow. If it is possible to be efficient against them, it's neither easy nor consistent, and the mind games are playing hell with my thinking. Appreciate that they were not nerfed immediately though.
I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I think they should just make the hellion and hellbat seperate units altogether. no transformation, then they can make it cost more without messing with the hellion
On June 10 2013 09:49 EFermi wrote: Hellbats are just a horribly designed unit. Terran shouldn't have a cheap tanky close range unit, that on top of everything, does ridiculous amounts of damage.
Yeah I guess we can leave the cheap, extremely tanky close range units with the ability to travel quickly when teched into to Zealots and Roaches.
Except they don't do aoe damage, nor do protoss and zerg have an even cheaper, massable unit that does crazy amounts of DPS and can be microed like a boss.
Does anyone think that giving the hellbat a minor gas cost could balance things out? maybe even have a gas cost for helion transformation itself (Hellbat requires a fuel boost? :D )
On June 10 2013 09:51 CeliosB wrote: i think they really need to change it back to mech, it would make the drops weaker which is the main problem with them and it would also make mech more viable vs protoss as archons wouldnt do extra damage to them
And how would you address the issue with the Hellbat as a tank vs Protoss then ? As you rightly said Archons would lose their bonus damage against them. Protoss had issues dealing with Hellbats in Bio compositions in the beta, because Zealots and Archons could not engage anymore and the Bio could do what it wanted. That was one reason why the Hellbats got the Bio tag and became pretty useless against Toss. Afterwards Hellbats got optimized to not rip through lings that hard but do darn well against Zealots. Removing the Bio tag only would make Hellbats even better against Protoss as the first version before the Bio change.
But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks. Medivac drops would still work but it wouldn't be the drop and pick up instantly anymore, but give a timing to snipe the hellbats.
The thing about comparing mutas wars to hellbat wars...
Muta vs muta is the the most boring thing to watch next to WOL's roach wars. No one wants to engage and both players just dance around for 5-10 minutes until finally a fight is forced and the winner is instantly decided.
Hellbat vs hellbat is anything but boring. Leave hellbats alone, they make for good TvTs, and are fine in every other matchup.
On June 10 2013 10:30 FeyFey wrote: But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks.
I think the game is pretty balanced at the moment, why would you say Hellbats need a nerf...? The game is in a decent condition now compared to the last era of WoL, I think even pro gamers say the game is nicely balanced right now
On June 10 2013 10:32 ottoottoottootto wrote: I think the game is pretty balanced at the moment, why would you say Hellbats need a nerf...? The game is in a decent condition now compared to the last era of WoL, I think even pro gamers say the game is nicely balanced right now
Idra said the game is balanced, of all people.
Well, at least in his indirect way. Instead of mass insulting every Terran and Toss unit he's limiting it to Hellbats, from what I've heard.
On June 10 2013 10:30 havok55 wrote: The thing about comparing mutas wars to hellbat wars...
Muta vs muta is the the most boring thing to watch next to WOL's roach wars. No one wants to engage and both players just dance around for 5-10 minutes until finally a fight is forced and the winner is instantly decided.
Hellbat vs hellbat is anything but boring. Leave hellbats alone, they make for good TvTs, and are fine in every other matchup.
fuck this.
hellbat vs hellbat is just stupid. it's throwing medivacs at your opponent and not caring whether you lose them or you get a big hit. both players are put into a situation where they keep doing this until they hit a windfall, and at that point it doesn't matter how many resources they lost.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I don't remember exactly either. But I remember Theognis says that Hellbat is really important in late game against Z and P. If they have high mineral late game, mass re-max zealots/zergling is really hard to deal with. Hellbat really helps Terran in that case. This is a interesting point.
On June 10 2013 10:16 bhfberserk wrote: I really hope to see Hellbat been discussed by Terran players on artosis meta. To really see some insights from the pros.
Right now I think the best idea is actually to not allow the medivac to boost while carrying mech units. But this does shut down hellbat drop completely. or, lower the damage of the hellbat, and increases the splash radius. So that it is still good in battles, but require to drop all 4 hellbats out to deal that insane 2 hits an scv. Also raise the risk of carrying 400 minerals worth of hellbat in one cargo.
I am a terran myself. So this thread is not about balance whine, but more like "is mutas too strong in ZvZ" kind of thing.
I think theognis already said that the hellbat may need adjusting in a previous episode of meta.
EDIT: I may be wrong and imagining things, but I think I remember this from a few episodes ago.
I don't remember exactly either. But I remember Theognis says that Hellbat is really important in late game against Z and P. If they have high mineral late game, mass re-max zealots/zergling is really hard to deal with. Hellbat really helps Terran in that case. This is a interesting point.
That is true as well.
What about adjusting the hellbat in some way such that hellbat drops actually cost something or adjusting their ability to kill workers while changing the zealot to have more shields and less hp so that EMP is more effective against that composition? Maybe instead of 100hp/50 shield 80 hp/70 shield? Or 90 hp/60 shield? This will also effect the midgame as well though as zealots will have less hp to use armor with so it'd be tricky.
I don't play much TvT, but hellbats are such a cheap and effective investment to wipe out a mineral line, either another form of drop needs to be buffed, risking messing up the meta game that way, defenses against hell bats needs to be buffed, or hellbats need to be nerfed. Right now they are just so much better than every other form of TvT worker harass.
i think every single person in this thread can universally agree that hellbat drops in the early game are just retarded.
whether they're imbalanced in the later stages of the game, or whether the medivac itself is a problem is up for debate, but because it's pretty clear that early game worker massacres are just stupid, they should just require transformation servos for hellbats.
it addresses everything wrong with the earlygame while leaving the other issues alone.
I think hellbats are too cheap for the amount of damage they can outright deal. Nerfs I would recommend is either decreasing its damage to light, or making hellbats cost gas aswell (e.g. 25 gas). Healing is not the problem, its just the outright damage it can do as it drops, and how quickly it comes. For you to successfully defend it with very little casualties you'd need to invest way more into defense then the hellbat player. This goes for all races.
The problem is how early they come out. If they made it so they couldn't be built out of factories you would be forced to get transformation servos. Also its pretty stupid that they are biological.
On June 10 2013 10:55 Pursuit_ wrote: Removing the biological tag from Hellbats is the only change I think is needed. And I think it was stupid to add the tag in the first place.
Have they ever explained how or why hellbats got the biological tag in the first place? Is there a logical or balance related reason of any kind?
It's funny how Blizzard nerfed blue flame hellions because they were too good at killing workers and then made another unit that does exactly the same thing.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Yes. Even with imba hellbats, TvT is still MOSTLY a fun matchup. I had a game the other day where a Diamond protoss trying out terran just dropped hellbats nonstop. I had 1 turret per mineral line and 1 bunk each, and I was babysitting a group of marines trying to spot drops, all while spamming my camera hotkeys to make sure there weren't hellbats killing my full-time laborers.
I won, but only after holding off no less than 12 back to back hellbat drops before finally pushing out at 15 minutes. Uugh. So painful to play against. And he didn't even really know how to play Terran
On June 10 2013 01:34 Gladiator6 wrote: I think they should make it a little bit more expensive than it is now, maybe let it cost 125 minerals? It's quite hard to deal with in late game PvT also when it's included in compositions because of how cheap it is.
if you increase the cost of hellbat, you also have to increase the cost of hellions else you would just build hellions and purchase the upgrade to change to hellbats, thus costing you 100 minerals again. I don't think changing the cost is a good way to go about balacing them, if they even need a balance... really players just need time, nearly everything "OP" turns out not to be given enough time for other players to figure out how to deal with it
On June 10 2013 10:55 Pursuit_ wrote: Removing the biological tag from Hellbats is the only change I think is needed. And I think it was stupid to add the tag in the first place.
Have they ever explained how or why hellbats got the biological tag in the first place? Is there a logical or balance related reason of any kind?
Medivac energy would useless for Mech players if they couldn't heal something. I suggested in the HOTS beta to remove the healing aspect and call them Drop Ships (and also remove the gas cost), and add Medics into the game.
On June 10 2013 10:55 Pursuit_ wrote: Removing the biological tag from Hellbats is the only change I think is needed. And I think it was stupid to add the tag in the first place.
Have they ever explained how or why hellbats got the biological tag in the first place? Is there a logical or balance related reason of any kind?
Medivac energy would useless for Mech players if they couldn't heal something. I suggested in the HOTS beta to remove the healing aspect and call them Drop Ships (and also remove the gas cost), and add Medics into the game.
This happened instead.
That doesnt make sense because drop play would still be useful even without the ability to heal mech. People dropped hellions in WoL...
On June 10 2013 10:55 Pursuit_ wrote: Removing the biological tag from Hellbats is the only change I think is needed. And I think it was stupid to add the tag in the first place.
Have they ever explained how or why hellbats got the biological tag in the first place? Is there a logical or balance related reason of any kind?
Medivac energy would useless for Mech players if they couldn't heal something. I suggested in the HOTS beta to remove the healing aspect and call them Drop Ships (and also remove the gas cost), and add Medics into the game.
This happened instead.
That doesnt make sense because drop play would still be useful even without the ability to heal mech. People dropped hellions in WoL...
Its true, but it does put a clock on how useful medivacs are when factory units are in play. With the seperate upgrades as well, there is a point with factory based units that building medivacs would not make sense(paying for an ability you are not using).
Its really no that big of a deal. SCVs and marauders are healed by medivacs and they are mostly just huge robots. Hell, SCVs can be repaired and healed at the same time.
If they could somehow make hellbats a more micro intensive unit, I think that would be the best possible change. They just seem kind of boring to use atm, and they drain the opposing players' apm without requiring that much micromanagement themselves.
Edit: I think the bio tag on hellbats should be removed, everyone agrees it doesn't really make sense and this contributes to hellbat drops being very strong.
On June 10 2013 10:55 Pursuit_ wrote: Removing the biological tag from Hellbats is the only change I think is needed. And I think it was stupid to add the tag in the first place.
Have they ever explained how or why hellbats got the biological tag in the first place? Is there a logical or balance related reason of any kind?
Medivac energy would useless for Mech players if they couldn't heal something. I suggested in the HOTS beta to remove the healing aspect and call them Drop Ships (and also remove the gas cost), and add Medics into the game.
This happened instead.
That doesnt make sense because drop play would still be useful even without the ability to heal mech. People dropped hellions in WoL...
Its true, but it does put a clock on how useful medivacs are when factory units are in play. With the seperate upgrades as well, there is a point with factory based units that building medivacs would not make sense(paying for an ability you are not using).
Its really no that big of a deal. SCVs and marauders are healed by medivacs and they are mostly just huge robots. Hell, SCVs can be repaired and healed at the same time.
It IS a big deal....the units are not distanced enough for there to be a logical, justifiable explanation for the hellbat's bio-tag and the hellion's mechanical tag. The unit should be internally consistent. The hellbat is akin to the hellion in the same way that a sieged tank is a transformation of an unsieged tank. The fact that the hellbat somehow gains a bio-tag does not justifiably make sense.
And I don't understand how not being able to use medevac energy has any influence on medevac use with mech. It acts as terrain-passable transportation. That in itself will always be invaluable. Coupled with the fact that it land and ship upgrades are merged, now...Hellions in WoL were effective all game long. There is never not a reason to harass an opponent's mineral lines with hellbats/hellions.
The argument of deteriorating use holds the least weight with mech, of all compositions. Mech is a gas based composition. A drop of hellions or hellbats costs 100 gas. A terran player can AFFORD to throw away mineral only units all game long in order to cause substantial economic damage.
On June 10 2013 11:05 tomatriedes wrote: It's funny how Blizzard nerfed blue flame hellions because they were too good at killing workers and then made another unit that does exactly the same thing.
They made the warhound. This isn't exactly rocket science design going on in Irvine.
I think their damage (either base or against light) should be reduced a bit. TTheir damage is kinda high for a unit that doesnt cost gas.
How about make Hellbats require the Transformation upgrade? Maybe this will help prevent Terran from getting super fast Hellbats. This will force Terran players to put a tech lab on factory early AND the transformation upgrade won't be so useless like neosteel frame.
On June 10 2013 09:52 btwr wrote: I'm thinking decreasing hellbat movement speed on the PTR could yield some really interesting results
Also, it means that transforming them in and out of combat is a factor. I think making them really slow, but increasing transformation time would be intresting
On June 10 2013 12:15 ilikeredheads wrote: I think their damage (either base or against light) should be reduced a bit. TTheir damage is kinda high for a unit that doesnt cost gas.
How about make Hellbats require the Transformation upgrade? Maybe this will help prevent Terran from getting super fast Hellbats. This will force Terran players to put a tech lab on factory early AND the transformation upgrade won't be so useless like neosteel frame.
That was how it was once upon a time in the beta, and then no-one used hellbats because it wasn't worth the time getting the upgrade. (by the time you have armory and tech lab, you'd be getting drilling claws instead)
Hellbats seem like a braindead unit that is only good because of two things: It does tons of damage to workers, and it can be healed/repaired. It's in the same breath as the oracle/colossi/void ray. Uninteresting and only good because it kills stuff fast, which is incredibly boring to me. I think it needs to cost gas, take longer to build, not be able to be healed by medivacs, or do less damage. I'd suggest no healing for hellbats so they still remain relevant as a harass unit.
I think the problem is hellbat drops. Specifically the fact that medivacs give the hellbats near guaranteed access to the mineral line. The terran employing the drops is dumping predominantly minerals for guaranteed damage to the opponent's economy. You force the player to run all their workers, while also potentially forcing static defence, killing workers, or some combination of the three. The time spent not mining alone, because of live hellbats near your mineral line and geysers, is potentially enough to balance the cost (since hellbats are tanky and being healed by the unit that ferried them there, they do not die in a second or two). People comparing hellbat drops to reaver drops really didn't understand BW at all.
I don't think that hellbats are a problem as part of the general army composition. Nor do I consider medivac boosters a problem either. It is the interaction between the two, particularly at earlier sections of the game where investment in static defence has a higher opportunity cost. And I think that is where any fix needs to be targeted; somehow impacting on the combination of the two units.
On June 10 2013 12:26 Brett wrote: I think the problem is hellbat drops. Specifically the fact that medivacs give the hellbats near guaranteed access to the mineral line. The terran employing the drops is dumping predominantly minerals for guaranteed damage to the opponent's economy. You force the player to run all their workers, while also potentially forcing static defence, killing workers, or some combination of the three. The time spent not mining alone, because of live hellbats near your mineral line and geysers, is potentially enough to balance the cost (since hellbats are tanky and being healed by the unit that ferried them there, they do not die in a second or two). People comparing hellbat drops to reaver drops really didn't understand BW at all.
I don't think that hellbats are a problem as part of the general army composition. Nor do I consider medivac boosters a problem either. It is the interaction between the two, particularly at earlier sections of the game where investment in static defence has a higher opportunity cost. And I think that is where any fix needs to be targeted; somehow impacting on the combination of the two units.
I generally agree with this. If you see it coming and react perfectly in the early game, they will still get to your workers unless you pull them before the medivac gets there and you hide them.
Remove the biological tag so medivacs can't heal them.
They stay a potent threat and promote harassment, multipronged style play but don't need a disproportionately large amount of defensive units/anti-micro to kill them.
i'm not naive enough to comment on the balance of the unit. all i know is that hellbat drops vs hellbat drops is annoying, frustrating, and boring to watch
The hellbat just doesn't make sense to me. I know there are 'meta' units in the game, but given how strong it is it should only fit into certain roles I think.
I think the damage is fine but maybe lower it's attack speed or make it only loadable as a hellion. The harass is too good.
-they could make medivac healing on hellbats an inexpensive but relatively long tech lab upgrade edit: what i mean by this is like 50/50 cost, bout same time as combat shields -they could make turbovacing cost 25 energy Kappa (could be an upgrade on tech lab starport again 50/50, same time as combat shields which would remove this cost)
then again im not even gm and these suggestions and better ones have already been suggested so meh
so, i know im gonna get a lot of flame for this and i'm not going to justify why but instead of storm doing 80 over 4 seconds, i honestly think it should do 50 over 2 seconds, then 3 over 2 seconds. it honestly just feels more right oo
Removing heal removes incentive to mix in hellbats with the Terran army, which presumably was Blizzard's whole purpose for putting them in the game. They'll become a gimmicky harass-only unit like the banshee. I'm as clueless as everyone else, but the only solution I can think of is to nerf medivac boost making it easier to kill the whole drop if it isn't microed properly.
On June 10 2013 12:45 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote: My recommendations: 1. 125 minerals, 25 gas (it has to have gas, right?) 2. Same HP as hellion 3. repair only, no heal
Done. HoTS is not perfect!
So... you want a slower shorter range hellion for more? That wont fly... it would make it pretty worthless outside of maybe a single early drop or something.
I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis?
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic.
I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2.
As a spectator, I don't like to see Hellbats used so much in TvT. TvT used to be the most vibrant match up, with a variety of relatively viable openings like banshee, hellion, hellion drop, mine drop, 15 cc, etc. Each of these builds had a certain level of risk attached, but none of them gets roflstomped out right by any ONE build.
Hellbat openings changed the entire dynamic by making EVERY OTHER OPENING not viable anymore. Every time MVP opened with something different than Hellbats, he was way behind and had to catch up in the mid game.
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis?
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic.
I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2.
The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game.
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis?
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic.
I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2.
Here's my solution. I thought of it about a month ago.
Hellions cost 100 minerals. Hellbats cost 100/50.
Servo upgrade stays the same.
This way players who like mass Hellbats can research the upgrade and have Hellbats for no gas cost while people who only want to build 6-8 for drops can spend the gas.
To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
On June 10 2013 13:21 _Search_ wrote: Here's my solution. I thought of it about a month ago.
Hellions cost 100 minerals. Hellbats cost 100/50.
Servo upgrade stays the same.
This way players who like mass Hellbats can research the upgrade and have Hellbats for no gas cost while people who only want to build 6-8 for drops can spend the gas.
I like this actually.
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
It does? Or is this like the same significant investment that happens in ZvZ when they open muta (pre spore buff)?
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops.
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Yeah, but thread is about TvT.
Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D).
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops.
This ought to be good.
Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro.
^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis?
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic.
I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2.
The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game.
from top of my head. I can come with these ideas: - redesign nuke, make it spammable, require 100 energy instead of building the bomb, less damage but same delay and maybe give longer range to cast. Good player with smart predicition can use it to maximum effect, for zoning or as an antideathball. Or maybe leave nuke as it is. And give this ability to some sort of artillery unit. - make a zerg melee unit, which spreads desease to bio when killed. It can have crap damage and slightly more durable. Forces more micro from both players. - increase armor and durablity for burrowed units. Increase unburrow time. There will be incentive to micro zerg units. - give an ability to thor to suicide with large fucking explosion. ...
Fuck ton of ideas, you just gotta choose the right one, not hellbats and warhounds ffs.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Yeah, but thread is about TvT.
Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D).
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops.
This ought to be good.
Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro.
I think a part of the problem is not that they hurt when not prepared for, that goes for a ton of things in SC2, but they hurt disproportionately to the risk taken to execute them. They annihilate mineral lines in a pretty nasty way without much margin for error from the defender.
Also, I'd like to imagine that the folks here aren't advocating that the opening be devalued to the point of uselessness. Just tuned so they're not so punishing. Nobody likes to have a mineral line incinerated because they looked away for a half a second.
Personally I would lament the loss of the Turbovac/Hellbat synergy a little, mostly because of the micro involved in picking them up and redropping to abuse Medivac speed. Its little examples of micro like that that make games fun to watch, its really NOT interesting to see someone just send in waves and waves of Hellbat drops unendingly without any real commitment to microing them.
So overall I have to imagine that whats best is something to tune the Hellbats so that they're not decimating mineral lines in duos. I admit I'm fond of the Hellbats occupying 5 Medivac slots, that way the only way two Hellbats are getting into your mineral line is with a heavier commitment, and it would likely lead to Marines going in the additional three slots, which could offer some interesting compositional micro between getting the Hellbat to dish out big AoE while the Marines finish the fleeing Probes off.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
I don't know about painting in such broad strokes, but I agree that if there is a problem in TvT, it's more the medivac than the hellbat.
In the other mu's I am still unsure, but marauder hellbat looks crazy good in PvT atm.
Just some fun numbers: You probably have 16 SCV's on minerals in your main by the time hellbats arrive. For every second that you pull all 16 away from mining, you are losing 10.66...7 minerals. So if you lose 0 SCV's and are forced to pull for 10 seconds, you have lost more than 106 minerals (I say more than because it takes time to re-establish mineral pairing). So if you get the medivac away, kill 2 SCV's and have them pull workers you have made a cost efficient trade (if not gained a lead) even with losing both hellbats.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for a metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
End of WoL: Blizz does nothing, complete mess Your opinion on if Blizz steps in: It will get worse
Basically, it will either get worse or be a complete mess? They allowed the game to develop for 3 months, is that not enough time?
On June 10 2013 12:53 saddaromma wrote: I can't still understand how in the earth blizzard came up with hellbat and warhound. The most boring one-dimensional units which you could possibly ask for. Are they so much deep in creativity crysis?
Also, terrans already were doing lots of drops, whereas P and Z hardly did any harass besides some run-bys. So they decide to give more drop-harass options to terran. Can't find any logic behind this. Sure they gave oracle to protoss, but they made it cheese unit rather than strategic.
I really question current dev.team's ability to maintain and grow SC2.
The problem is they want to do everything new and not use brood war units in expansions. They're limiting their pool of potential units to round out the game because they keep wanting to have "their units" in the game.
Which is stupid. Most units in BW had a nice creative spin on them, while in SC2 it's the dullest, yet flashiest things possible.
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Yeah, but thread is about TvT.
Yeah and removing hellbats as an opener in TvT just lowers the overall intensity of the match up no? It IS possible to shut it down btw, you need good map awareness and an idea of what exactly he is opening with (you know, the strategy aspect of the game :D).
On June 10 2013 13:21 AnomalySC2 wrote: To open with hellbat drops requires a significant investment on the aggressor's side, I think it's fair that if you aren't somewhat prepared for it then you will take a lot of damage. It's not like Terran is the only race with some extremely powerful options, all the races have some scary stuff up their sleeves in HoTS.
Wait, what? What extremely powerful harassment options do P has I wonder? That's not nullified by a single missile turret, by the way. Something's that's guaranteed to do damage to terran no matter what the preparation, like winbat drops.
This ought to be good.
Oracle openers are just as devastating if you aren't prepared for it. Just one example....yes even one missile turret doesn't stop oracle builds if you have good decision making and micro.
The problem is that its actually impossible to defend hellbat drops cost efficiently without hellbat dropping yourself. All other openers are obsolete as you invest way more in defending than they do attacking. It really makes the matchup stupid as there is only 1 playstyle due to hellbats.
Someone on the WCS stream chat was saying vikings can beat hellbat drops when grounded. Who wins, 4 hellbat or 4 grounded vikings?
If vikings do in fact beat hellbats 1v1, I think that could possibly be a counter considering they can easily snipe medivacs. Combined with depots around the edges of bases and some turrets, it seems like a plausible theory.
The only downside would be the time it takes for vikings to transform, which sometimes feels like ages.
On June 10 2013 02:18 MassTank wrote: I think they would be perfectly balanced if they didnt get healed from mediavacs. They would still be viable but they would get killed easier.
Blizzard want mech vs Protoss. The change you propose will cause the drops to be very vulnerable against feedback. You could have it that the boosts costs energy but that will also cause bio to be weaker.
If they want mech against Protoss, the answer is a better siege tank. Hellbats won't help.
Simple. Medivacs cannot ignite afterburners with hellbats inside, but they can with other units.
For example, they can give the medivacs a "weight limit" i.e with 8 marines or 4 hellions, they can still use afterburners. However, if units that take up 4 space or more like Hellbats, Siege tank or Thor, afterburners are disabled.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
according to game theory, the option with the lowest risk and high reward will always be the dominating strategy. And I am glad that you have figured out in order to outplay a hellbat drop player, you must go for banshee openi
Most of the metagame in WoL was aided by Blizzard patches, fixes and map changes, other than hellion opening in TvZ. some examples: Double forge -> cheaper upgrade Infestor ling -> infestor change Mass ghost in Late game TvZ -> gone after snipe patch 6 queens opening -> queen range buff which led to a quicker 3rd with 4 queens instead
The final era of WoL was a mess when Blizzard didn't fix infestor broodlords
When I first saw this post, I thought "let's give Hellbats some more time." After reading the post, it seems that this is not a bad time to talk about them.
On June 10 2013 09:51 CeliosB wrote: i think they really need to change it back to mech, it would make the drops weaker which is the main problem with them and it would also make mech more viable vs protoss as archons wouldnt do extra damage to them
And how would you address the issue with the Hellbat as a tank vs Protoss then ? As you rightly said Archons would lose their bonus damage against them. Protoss had issues dealing with Hellbats in Bio compositions in the beta, because Zealots and Archons could not engage anymore and the Bio could do what it wanted. That was one reason why the Hellbats got the Bio tag and became pretty useless against Toss. Afterwards Hellbats got optimized to not rip through lings that hard but do darn well against Zealots. Removing the Bio tag only would make Hellbats even better against Protoss as the first version before the Bio change.
But if people really think that drops are a problem. It is just dropping Hellbats on top of the opponent, because Hellbats fire almost instantly. They could easily add a crouch animation like with the Thors, which would result in the Hellbats being nearly useless in chasing situations, while still being the unbeatable tanks. Medivac drops would still work but it wouldn't be the drop and pick up instantly anymore, but give a timing to snipe the hellbats.
Fix the problem of it being able to be healed and if it is too strong in fights vs toss you can nerf damage, health ect. it is and easy fix from there
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
according to game theory, the option with the lowest risk and high reward will always be the dominating strategy. And I am glad that you have figured out in order to outplay a hellbat drop player, you must go for banshee openi
Most of the metagame in WoL was aided by Blizzard patches, fixes and map changes, other than hellion opening in TvZ. some examples: Double forge -> cheaper upgrade Infestor ling -> infestor change Mass ghost in Late game TvZ -> gone after snipe patch 6 queens opening -> queen range buff which led to a quicker 3rd with 4 queens instead
The final era of WoL was a mess when Blizzard didn't fix infestor broodlords
Infestor Broodlord only came about because of the constant nerfing (and in some cases buffing ^_^). It's a never ending road if they start going down it. One nerf will lead to the next, so on and so forth.
Just sitting like two hellbats with your tanks seems to make it impossible to drop marines on tank positions if their antiair is out of position, kind of lame that a fairly cool tactic is just gone from tvt because of some a-move unit.
On June 10 2013 13:46 Phoenix2003 wrote: ^^Well, I was wrong.(about your response being a good one) This is why you and fellow Ts fail. The key phrase" if you're not prepared" doesn't hold water since hellbat drops are guaranteed to do damage no matter what. Sorry, Try again. Now re-read my post again.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_-
have you completely skipped OP's post???
I will just list two here for you: We don't want to see hellbat drops 99% of the TvT why we are seeing it so often is because the cost of defense and the reward is much better than other aggressive build "A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game."
Some people want a more balanced viable multiple strategy in a matchup, not just one single dominating aggression build.
It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
according to game theory, the option with the lowest risk and high reward will always be the dominating strategy. And I am glad that you have figured out in order to outplay a hellbat drop player, you must go for banshee openi
Most of the metagame in WoL was aided by Blizzard patches, fixes and map changes, other than hellion opening in TvZ. some examples: Double forge -> cheaper upgrade Infestor ling -> infestor change Mass ghost in Late game TvZ -> gone after snipe patch 6 queens opening -> queen range buff which led to a quicker 3rd with 4 queens instead
The final era of WoL was a mess when Blizzard didn't fix infestor broodlords
Infestor Broodlord only came about because of the constant nerfing (and in some cases buffing ^_^). It's a never ending road if they start going down it. One nerf will lead to the next, so on and so forth.
then this is the perfect example on why the game cannot balance itself naturally. Infestors broodlords were a problem and even with all the nerf it is still an issue. Imagine if Blizzard didn't even patch anything.
Hellbats used to take up just 1 cargo space in the beta, would the game balance itself as well?
the real problem with hellbat is pretty much only their high burst damage which makes 2 hellbats oneshot a workerline. so why not make them shoot faster but lower their damage so in the end its the same DPS but the defender has a bit more time to react since the first shot wont instakill everything while they stay as good in a direct fight.
Nerf Speed Boost, shouldn't be a spammable ability. It is being used to get into a base quickly or escape with ease. There should be more of a choice on when you should use it.
On June 10 2013 15:05 CHOMPMannER wrote: Nerf Speed Boost, shouldn't be a spammable ability. It is being used to get into a base quickly or escape with ease. There should be more of a choice on when you should use it.
Or if it should be spammable, it should have some negative effect. Nice risk/reward to punish people who overuse and reward those who use it smartly.
This game needs more incentive to play smartly. :-D
On June 10 2013 07:49 Seiniyta wrote: Just add an upgrade to the Command Center which makes SCV's 50% more resiliant against fire attacks. 50 minerals/ 50 gas.
Yeah I like it, because it doesn't mess with other MUs in which Hellbats are NOT broken.
On June 10 2013 15:05 CHOMPMannER wrote: Nerf Speed Boost, shouldn't be a spammable ability. It is being used to get into a base quickly or escape with ease. There should be more of a choice on when you should use it.
Or if it should be spammable, it should have some negative effect. Nice risk/reward to punish people who overuse and reward those who use it smartly.
This game needs more incentive to play smartly. :-D
So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
On June 10 2013 15:05 Decendos wrote: the real problem with hellbat is pretty much only their high burst damage which makes 2 hellbats oneshot a workerline. so why not make them shoot faster but lower their damage so in the end its the same DPS but the defender has a bit more time to react since the first shot wont instakill everything while they stay as good in a direct fight.
I agree, the issue with a lot of these new units such as hellbats and oracles is that they roast worker lines so fast without giving the defender any real option of microing against them except pulling away all their workers which is a very costly move in itself and often not much of a choice itself with the medivac boost. They were quick to nerf the oracle even though Protoss is looking weak, and yet the only change made to hellbats has been the medivac space nerf which was as obvious of a change as anyone could imagine. They really need to start thinking about making some units weaker against workers because watching these constant drops is getting dizzying. I don't care if someone has great multitask, this game is supposed to be about more than that and this shit is getting annoying.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet.
the OP has posted a long ass post about hellbat drops in TvT and not other matchups. this whole thread is about hellbat drops in TvT.
I think the hellbat is one of the only cases where I'd tune down the unit instead of buffing something else to make up for it. The reason why is that you can currently not do much wrong if you go hellbats no matter what the situation. You don't have to include them but there's really no reason not to. Couple that with their low cost and how unforgiving they can be for the opponent, I'd really like a small nerf to them that makes them something you choose moreso than just including them because why not.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
On June 10 2013 14:44 Sky0 wrote: Easiest fix in the game. Just make it so they cant be picked up by medivacs
The main problem is the initial burst damage that allows them to man handle worker lines. Another problem is the fact they cant easily die. Their dps vs light should go down alittle so that it will match exactly as the hellion (But different attack speeds). This way hellbats stay true to their "tank" role. And since hellbat dps being same as hellion doesnt mean they cant destory mineral lines.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
I honestly feel like you shoulda been temp-banned for that post, but it's not my call to make.
There is no reference in the OP that states this is only concerning TvT matchup, in fact, one of the issues is that it concerns EVERY matchup. WIth 6000+ posts under your belt, id expect you to be a little less oblivious and a bit more respectful.
I think a very simple temporary solution is to nerf hellbat damage so it takes 3 shots to kill an SCV but 2 shots for the other races. Bring back blue flame upgrade to fix the damage nerf later in the game. For example 12 +10 to light with blue flame increasing damage back to +18.
On June 10 2013 15:38 FinalForm wrote: so like, you put a picture in the OP to make this a legit "review"? what makes this different than any other generic balance whine post?
The sheer fact that you would post that on page 23 of comments surrounding this "generic balance whine post" is in itself a statement.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_- It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
Lets be more specific, to keep the discussion logical: I am not sure if you are theory crafting or have some solid games played, can banshee build outplay Hellbat drops? Banshee can only be produced one at a time, it takes 6 shots to kill a Hellbat. More than enough time for hellbats to kill all the SCVs. Are your banshees on the aggressive or defensive? Your opponent have all the early marines at the main base to defend against your banshee + and reactor starport ready. Also I think the fastest hellbat drop build will get to your base before a banshee. With medivac speed + faster build time.
Making Banshees mean you are investing gas into harassing units. Whereas Hellbat drop's gas investment is actually just the armoury, which really nicely allow you to transition into mech with fast upgrades.
Hellbat drop can easily escape from a banshee because it can simply pick up. The Hellbat dropship can fly around to scout, pressure, and keep you contained.
These days I uses Forgg mass hellions + some vikings. Because hellions actually do quite well against Hellbat. They are fast to react. But you loses most of the aggression. At best, you really just come out even while losing most of the map control.
I really like Blizzard waited a long time before any nerf hammer. The last patch really changed one specific thing affecting only ZvZ. That is really cool to see. But will Hellbat drop really balance itself out? The last time DK speak about Hellbat was about a month ago. Do we need to wait another season to see the metagame really settle down? Shouldn't we at least get a PTR going on Hellbat. That's all I am asking Blizzard to do. Let's start looking into Hellbat!
the main problem is still the medivac, a unit like the hellbat with overbuffed stats because of super slow movement speed doesnt work too well in a race with a millenium falcon dropship thats also an army unit
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_- It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
Lets be more specific, to keep the discussion logical: I am not sure if you are theory crafting or have some solid games played, can banshee build outplay Hellbat drops? Banshee can only be produced one at a time, it takes 6 shots to kill a Hellbat. More than enough time for hellbats to kill all the SCVs. Are your banshees on the aggressive or defensive? Your opponent have all the early marines at the main base to defend against your banshee + and reactor starport ready. Also I think the fastest hellbat drop build will get to your base before a banshee. With medivac speed + faster build time.
Making Banshees mean you are investing gas into harassing units. Whereas Hellbat drop's gas investment is actually just the armoury, which really nicely allow you to transition into mech with fast upgrades.
Hellbat drop can easily escape from a banshee because it can simply pick up. The Hellbat dropship can fly around to scout, pressure, and keep you contained.
These days I uses Forgg mass hellions + some vikings. Because hellions actually do quite well against Hellbat. They are fast to react. But you loses most of the aggression. At best, you really just come out even while losing most of the map control.
I really like Blizzard waited a long time before any nerf hammer. The last patch really changed one specific thing affecting only ZvZ. That is really cool to see. But will Hellbat drop really balance itself out? The last time DK speak about Hellbat was about a month ago. Do we need to wait another season to see the metagame really settle down? Shouldn't we at least get a PTR going on Hellbat. That's all I am asking Blizzard to do. Let's start looking into Hellbat!
Hellions RAPE hellbats. They dont do "quiet well". They flat out DESTROY. If you go for forGGs build and lose to a hellbat opening (hellbat drop, dual hellbat drop, expansion delayed) you are doing crucial mistakes. A forGG followup with lots of hellions and 3-4 vikings to shut down hellbat drops onto your hellions cannot be defended with just hellbats. While I agree TvT is now shitty with everyone only dropping hellbats, I'd rather have a predictable TvT meta than unpredictable one.
MVP vs Innovation did show in some games that there can be very good games evolving from hellbat drops, not flat out stupid ones. You just need to be good enough ;-)
The biggest issue for hellbat harass is that is also shuts down vision in TvT SUPER HARD. You can no longer sacrifice a single marine or SCV to hold a watchtower or watch a drop path because you need all of your defenses at home. In addition, if a hellbat drop flies over a scouting unit, they can drop, immediately kill it, and then continue with the drops.
This forces the game into a really awkward position where both players are positioned way in the back of their base with all of their defense and poaching out with their own hellbat drops to see if they can get more damage done.
On June 10 2013 15:48 SC2John wrote: The biggest issue for hellbat harass is that is also shuts down vision in TvT SUPER HARD. You can no longer sacrifice a single marine or SCV to hold a watchtower or watch a drop path because you need all of your defenses at home. In addition, if a hellbat drop flies over a scouting unit, they can drop, immediately kill it, and then continue with the drops.
This forces the game into a really awkward position where both players are positioned way in the back of their base with all of their defense and poaching out with their own hellbat drops to see if they can get more damage done.
Viking as defence. Turret at edge or mineral line. The medivac is the problem, not the hellbats. Once the medivac is gone, threat is gone.
On June 10 2013 15:48 SC2John wrote: The biggest issue for hellbat harass is that is also shuts down vision in TvT SUPER HARD. You can no longer sacrifice a single marine or SCV to hold a watchtower or watch a drop path because you need all of your defenses at home. In addition, if a hellbat drop flies over a scouting unit, they can drop, immediately kill it, and then continue with the drops.
This forces the game into a really awkward position where both players are positioned way in the back of their base with all of their defense and poaching out with their own hellbat drops to see if they can get more damage done.
Viking as defence. Turret at edge or mineral line. The medivac is the problem, not the hellbats. Once the medivac is gone, threat is gone.
False. Hellbats are stronger than marines and if you have a hellbat lead, you'll also win the hellbat battle by a huge margin. In the meantime, the hellbats are wandering around in the mineral line and stopping mining until you can kill the hellbats without losing too much. We saw this several times in Innovation vs. Mvp where Innovation just had 6 hellbats in Mvp's base and Mvp just didn't have enough units to deal with it.
Sidenote: I think a good and easy fix for hellbats would be to just nerf the damage and apply the blue flame upgrade to them. This would make them less devastating in the early game while still making them potent later in the game.
On June 10 2013 15:48 SC2John wrote: The biggest issue for hellbat harass is that is also shuts down vision in TvT SUPER HARD. You can no longer sacrifice a single marine or SCV to hold a watchtower or watch a drop path because you need all of your defenses at home. In addition, if a hellbat drop flies over a scouting unit, they can drop, immediately kill it, and then continue with the drops.
This forces the game into a really awkward position where both players are positioned way in the back of their base with all of their defense and poaching out with their own hellbat drops to see if they can get more damage done.
Viking as defence. Turret at edge or mineral line. The medivac is the problem, not the hellbats. Once the medivac is gone, threat is gone.
False. Hellbats are stronger than marines and if you have a hellbat lead, you'll also win the hellbat battle by a huge margin. In the meantime, the hellbats are wandering around in the mineral line and stopping mining until you can kill the hellbats without losing too much. We saw this several times in Innovation vs. Mvp where Innovation just had 6 hellbats in Mvp's base and Mvp just didn't have enough units to deal with it.
Sidenote: I think a good and easy fix for hellbats would be to just nerf the damage and apply the blue flame upgrade to them. This would make them less devastating in the early game while still making them potent later in the game.
Its not false. If you shut down the first drop (or don't allow it to land) you will have enough and can properly respond. Even BoguS didn't go for his 8 hellbat drop on Newkirk once he saw 4 vikings. Its just not doable. You will lose 1 medivac before you unload if Terran is in position. You will lose the others after. If all you have is 8 marines, yes ofcourse the danger is from hellbats themselves but that shouldn'T be the case right?
I have never taken damage with vikings and hellions or my own hellbats in position. I only lost or took damage based on mistakes earlier that will snowball and lose. If he has 3 medivacs and 6 hellbats, I would assume you (with defenders advantage) have the same number on either your side or at his base.
If you previously did drop and lost engagements, you already made mistakes.
So you think no matter what you do it's not possible to come out ahead vs a hellbat opener?
-_- It will balance itself out naturally. You're new to metagames and trends or something? For instance, you can absolutely outplay a hellbat opener with a solid banshee build. There are many other options undiscovered, I'm sure....
If Blizzard steps in and starts nerfing whatever is currently the trend for the metagame then we will get a worse game in the long run. The final era of WoL was a complete mess for that exact reason.
Lets be more specific, to keep the discussion logical: I am not sure if you are theory crafting or have some solid games played, can banshee build outplay Hellbat drops? Banshee can only be produced one at a time, it takes 6 shots to kill a Hellbat. More than enough time for hellbats to kill all the SCVs. Are your banshees on the aggressive or defensive? Your opponent have all the early marines at the main base to defend against your banshee + and reactor starport ready. Also I think the fastest hellbat drop build will get to your base before a banshee. With medivac speed + faster build time.
Making Banshees mean you are investing gas into harassing units. Whereas Hellbat drop's gas investment is actually just the armoury, which really nicely allow you to transition into mech with fast upgrades.
Hellbat drop can easily escape from a banshee because it can simply pick up. The Hellbat dropship can fly around to scout, pressure, and keep you contained.
These days I uses Forgg mass hellions + some vikings. Because hellions actually do quite well against Hellbat. They are fast to react. But you loses most of the aggression. At best, you really just come out even while losing most of the map control.
I really like Blizzard waited a long time before any nerf hammer. The last patch really changed one specific thing affecting only ZvZ. That is really cool to see. But will Hellbat drop really balance itself out? The last time DK speak about Hellbat was about a month ago. Do we need to wait another season to see the metagame really settle down? Shouldn't we at least get a PTR going on Hellbat. That's all I am asking Blizzard to do. Let's start looking into Hellbat!
Hellions RAPE hellbats. They dont do "quiet well". They flat out DESTROY. If you go for forGGs build and lose to a hellbat opening (hellbat drop, dual hellbat drop, expansion delayed) you are doing crucial mistakes. A forGG followup with lots of hellions and 3-4 vikings to shut down hellbat drops onto your hellions cannot be defended with just hellbats. While I agree TvT is now shitty with everyone only dropping hellbats, I'd rather have a predictable TvT meta than unpredictable one.
MVP vs Innovation did show in some games that there can be very good games evolving from hellbat drops, not flat out stupid ones. You just need to be good enough ;-)
Well in my games they are not "flat out DESTROY" but yes! forGG build is quite good . But your opponent is not going to be behind. And here I am just saying really standard stuff. Lucifron Thor rush really shut down hellbat opener.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
Innovation vs sOs game 1? Innovation lost 4 medivacs of hellbats and killed only 9 probes and was still ahead. Personally, I can't quite explain that... but just sayin that it doesnt make you even come close to losing the game.
EDIT: He had 2/2 on the way and both sOs and innovation had their 3rd up at the same time with roughly even harvesters. The hellbats killed no units. It was basically perfect drop defense but he was still down 23 supply
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
Innovation vs sOs game 1? Innovation lost 4 medivacs of hellbats and killed only 9 probes and was still ahead. Personally, I can't quite explain that... but just sayin that it doesnt make you even come close to losing the game.
EDIT: He had 2/2 on the way and both sOs and innovation had their 3rd up at the same time with roughly even harvesters. The hellbats killed no units. It was basically perfect drop defense but he was still down 23 supply
As I said, I don't know if there is a bigger issue that needs to be fixed, all I'm saying is that on highest level its not always hellbats that are automatically a win. Innovation is right now one of the best, if not the best Terran player in the world. He proceeded to take all other games against sOs and those were not based on hellbats. He did it in a 4-0 sweep even. So yeah, while hellbats might be problematic, they are nowhere near autowin and losing 4 medivacs with only killing 9 probes, I guarantee Innovation didn't win the game because of those probes. sOs made other mistakes ... and Innovation played overall better. Not trying to defend hellbats alltogether but you will always find a small samplesize of games that render some units to be overpowered or too good
I think however, it shall not be changed right now. The game should have some perceptively OP units. I am fine with having standard strategies including the hellbat. If any unit would be considered of equally valid, we would just have some strategies with no real reason why they are standard.
"Since months it appears to strong, should Blizzard do something about it?" is the wrong approach in my opinion. Unless it is outright broken, Blizzard should not step in and rather let the players figure out how to deal with it.
Thing is, if the Hellbat would be the problem in TvT, a change in cost or build time would affect the other MU's as well and that's not the right way to approach "potential balance issues" (just think of the spore change in ZvZ, that's a more convenient way of doing it).
That said I agree the Hellbat is pretty strong and renders the Hellion more or less useless after the early-/midgame TvT due to inferior hitpoints, in addition to that lots of people tend to mech in TvT nowadays, but the crucial/fundamental problem is not the Hellbat itself, as many before me already concluded, it's the Medivac with it's short cooldown on boost which gives the Hellbats so much mobility. Medivacs should NOT be able to boost that often (and I play Terran as well).
It's not impossible to defend Hellbat drops without sustaining severe amounts of damage to your worker line(s), but it requires spot-on reactions and better static defenses to limit their mobility (aka=kill the Medivac), which is something you probably can't execute perfectly every time you happen to play against it.
But once you get rid of the Medivacs, Hellbats on their own aren't overpowered at all - OK, yes, they are pretty strong, but just look how slow and bulky they move, you can kite them with almost any unit that isn't a worker. What I discovered while playing/dropping against Protoss is that one or two Cannons behind your mineral line / in front of your Nexus can shut down Hellbat drops pretty nicely. Maybe not really cool to do so in Masters+, because it could be a rather heavy investment, but it definitely helps deflecting those pesky Medivacs and goofs around with the targeting A.I. of Hellbats, which gives the Protoss player more time to save his Probes.
Maybe the combination of two Hellbats and a speed Medivac is too cheap an investment to reconsider the attempt of harassing regardless of the opponents' defenses (because you boost into the base anyway), but what other possibilites aside from that has Terran really left in their arsenal? Banshees got pretty much figured out, Widow Mines got (sort of) figured out, reapers don't do shit after crossing the 5 min mark and Hellions CAN be good, but require really good micro and blunders from your opponent to work, so why bother ?
I'm loving tvt right now. I disagree that it is skilless or boring. If you want to defend hellbats, you CAN. Widow mines, vikings, and hellbats of your own coupled with missile turrets in the mineral lines shut them down. You can also defend with tank/marine if you insist on playing old school. The real fun starts when both terrans are dropping eachother simultaneously. Takes a lot of map awareness and micro.
On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote: The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
Kinda like this idea too... But to really make the hellbat drop less effective. The damage would have to be reduced so much that they dont two shot workers, and that would require alot of damage nerf! But maybe nerf the inital bonus to light hard, and increase the added bonus from blueflame would do the trick.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
The issue is about too much usage of hellbat in TvT.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
These are the kinds of post in this thread that are worth reading as they come from pr0 players who clearly explain their thoughts. Thanks for posting, Naruto.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
These are the kinds of post in this thread that are worth reading as they come from pr0 players who clearly explain their thoughts. Thanks for posting, Naruto.
Not that I disrespect any of pro opinions. But, mostly they look from competitive view point, whereas we care about fun and entertainment aspect.
I dont know how they should deal with hellbat drops becoming a dominant TvT strategy.. whether or not that is the issue of course. I personally think its not a good idea to nerf them in terms of stats (then they become useless) but thinking about it.. it could be a good reason to sort of make "sense" of the hellbat unit. By that I mean theres too many "rules" on the unit itself.
Some ideas: -Make blueflame upgrade relevant to the hell bat, synergize the unit more with the hellion etc. Maybe it needs to be cut in damage (so workers are 3 shotted) but the blueflame upgrade gives back the damage it does now (to all types). -Need servos upgrade, so hellbats are introduced later in the game. -Slightly reduce damage (so it cant 2 shot at no ups) for 1 base armor. OR Make medivac speed boost uses up energy (say x energy for y% speed boost for z amount of time) so you can't spam the heals on the hellbats or keep doom dropping with bio. It really becomes an "emergency" thruster.
Personally I think Medivacs are more of a problem if there was ever one.
However I have to admit that after watching years of BW, multiple messy hellbat drops on the fleeing SCV train sort of reminds me of reaver drops.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
On stargate: here's a the issue. For one, it's a really damn big investment, and phoenixes are basically awful against literally everything else. I personally think it would be silly to force protoss into investing tons of gas to defend a mineral based "harassment" unit (and wether T even needs such a unit is a whole other discussion altogether). A stargate and 1-3 (whatever) phoenixes are more expensive for the protoss than investing into hellbat tech rather than bio tech is for the Terran, especially because as you said while the Terran can play super greedy behind it, the protoss is left with no useful tech and a weaker standing army than normal. The fact that it's bad against the standard wol style bio builds (which are very viable) also doesn't help.
Additionally, we are already forced into stargate tech almost every game in PvZ, and it's an incredibly strong tech path in PvP too. Forcing P to go for the same tech path every game in every match up doesnt sound like the best game design (from both a spectator's and player's point of view it makes the race more stale), and P already has design issues in the first place. I feel like even if it turns out that going FE>2phoenixes>standard play shuts down hellbat drops (which it most likely does), that build would be terribad vs anything else terran might do so it would be a bandaid solution at best.
Regarding the hellbat itself, i think it's evident that it has some issues at least design wise for the simple reason that it makes hellions much, much less useful. I'm sure ideally in blizzard's mind you would have to choose between hellbat and hellions for different things, but realistically, right now for basically everything (except i suppose early game tvz and tvt, which are matchups i dont understand well so i cant comment) you would rather have hellbats. I mean, when a unit kills workers more efficiently than blue flame hellions for the same cost and is also stronger in a straight up fight, you should take a look at it imo.
As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
From the T perspective it was always byfar easiest to drop vs a T. Then I met smart terrans which just crushed the drops and left me far behind.
Hellbat drops are only effective if you make no decision to actually defend against them. Some terrans just go the mentality of "I'm confident in my mass hellbat drops. If he does it too, then I will just deal more dmg than him" so it goes into a mass hellbat drop vs mass hellbat drop, where neither side is actually defending against the hellbats. This leads to moronic games admittedly, but that is because you have 2 sets of players making a really stupid decision. This is really the only games where a terran can't defend the drops(well he could qutie easily, but he doesn't), and that is because they are taking a calculated risk.
People that complain the most about hellbats are generally the ones that don't try to defend hellbat drops at all and infact would've been just as fucked by 4 hellion drop(or god forbid 4 blueflame hellions). As soon as I started playing with hellbats in mind, defending them became a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, every now and then a drop does get through, but most of the time I can at worst force them to drop outside the mineral line and the hellbats never get in range of the scvs.
For me personally the issue with hellbat drops is not defending them, but that I am quite soon purely defending them, while my opponent is happily macro'ing up. But thats more a mindset issue from me, and means I should make more vikings .
On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote: Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform?
Edit: Making them cost gas would also kill them in TvP(the change on it's own), but the huge buff you'd give it by removing the bio tag would make up for it, so just really leaving hellbats in the shitter for TvZ mech(and like Scissor said below me, not change a thing for bio + hellbat combo).
On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote: Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform?
Yeah because of the transform thing you can either: 1) Keep their cost as it is now, nerf the stats as others have suggested (i personally think they should not kill workers more efficiently than hellions) 2) Keep their stats as they are now, nerf the cost, remove the transform (none uses it anyway, you always want hellbats and an armory is very easy to tech to).
On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote: Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
1. So boosting them vs toss, not complaining. 2. So directly nerfing mech vs toss, yet again. Was that really needed? In bio compositions vs toss you generally will have enough gas anyway 3. I thought it was raining, but then I realised it was just protoss tears. Really good luck finding any toss who thinks this is a good idea.
On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote: Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform?
Yeah because of the transform thing you can either: 1) Keep their cost as it is now, nerf the stats as others have suggested (i personally think they should not kill workers more efficiently than hellions) 2) Keep their stats as they are now, nerf the cost, remove the transform (none uses it anyway, you always want hellbats and an armory is very easy to tech to).
Don't forget that forgg is a nub, and no one uses hellions.
On June 10 2013 18:27 Zarahtra wrote: As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
From the T perspective it was always byfar easiest to drop vs a T. Then I met smart terrans which just crushed the drops and left me far behind.
Hellbat drops are only effective if you make no decision to actually defend against them. Some terrans just go the mentality of "I'm confident in my mass hellbat drops. If he does it too, then I will just deal more dmg than him" so it goes into a mass hellbat drop vs mass hellbat drop, where neither side is actually defending against the hellbats. This leads to moronic games admittedly, but that is because you have 2 sets of players making a really stupid decision. This is really the only games where a terran can't defend the drops(well he could qutie easily, but he doesn't), and that is because they are taking a calculated risk.
People that complain the most about hellbats are generally the ones that don't try to defend hellbat drops at all and infact would've been just as fucked by 4 hellion drop(or god forbid 4 blueflame hellions). As soon as I started playing with hellbats in mind, defending them became a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, every now and then a drop does get through, but most of the time I can at worst force them to drop outside the mineral line and the hellbats never get in range of the scvs.
This is a really good post that I whole-heartedly agree with.
I don't think Helbats are the problem here, it is the speedivac. Helbats have really short range and very slow movement speed. However, when paired with the speedivac, they suddenly gain easy access to the mineral and hence the currently helbats feasts in TvT. I think the correct way to solve the problem is to nerf the speed boost a little bit. They can either make it require an upgrade, or make the cooldown a little longer, or even use the gradual speed boost suggested by our fellow poster. This will help make drop plays a little less effective in all match up. In TvT this iwll mean helbats drop will not be as domainant , but still effective. In TvZ, this will give some breathing room for zerg, so the midgame period of 4M will not be as strong and hopefully the terran play can evolve past the 4M stage. In TvP, protoss will not be forced to fast tech on two base, giving more options on the match up. If this change proves to make terran too weak, blizzard can consider buff the terran late game.
tldr; nerf speed boost a little, buff other terran units if needed.
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
The issue is about too much usage of hellbat in TvT.
Not about protoss or zerg tears.
the problem isn't balance, but options and risk/reward. there arent many ways a terran can punish another terran for going hellbat drops, and hellbat drops are by and large, the best build, making it a go to build without much reason to not use it
On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote: So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet. Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[
the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game.
Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming.
If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark.
I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
These are the kinds of post in this thread that are worth reading as they come from pr0 players who clearly explain their thoughts. Thanks for posting, Naruto.
Absolutely agree. It would be great if more high level players (with patience and reasoning skills!) would contribute more to threads like this. I understand why they do not but It would certainly be great..
Pro players seem to be doing fine against hellbats. It always takes some time to adjust, because people (pros) are prone to risks because they want to get away with as cheap a defense as possible. Now we see one cannon in each mineral line and Terrans will start using vikings, turrets and small marine squads to zone medvacs out.
On June 10 2013 11:05 tomatriedes wrote: It's funny how Blizzard nerfed blue flame hellions because they were too good at killing workers and then made another unit that does exactly the same thing.
The thing is, this one is that same unit that killed workers fast but now is tanky and have twice dps, plus healling+boost support. Classic blizz.
I think hellbats are rather boring to watch and I hate seeing my favourite tvt matchup reduced to mass hellbat wars. Sure, it's possible that the meta game could change and people will stop them easily, but it doesn't change the fact that the hellbat is a boring unit. I love terran having exciting, micro intensive units =( Would be happy if they were nerfed in some way, I guess the most simple way is to remove its bio tag so it can't be healed by medivacs.
I don't think removing the bio tag from Hellbats would make any difference outside of engagements.
When a base has proper defense, a hellbat drop will do little to no damage. Most of the time when you see Hellbats take out a large amount of workers it's because there was nothing protecting the base from those drops; it could have been a marine or hellion drop and it would still do alot of damage.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game. If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
and a double/triple hellbat drop from the terran, versus zerg, cuts off _all_ mining, will get a few drone kills and zerg is stuck with speedlings/queens to deal with it. Spines don't nearly work well enough to be effective.
On June 10 2013 20:07 NapkinBox wrote: I don't think removing the bio tag from Hellbats would make any difference outside of engagements.
When a base has proper defense, a hellbat drop will do little to no damage. Most of the time when you see Hellbats take out a large amount of workers it's because there was nothing protecting the base from those drops; it could have been a marine or hellion drop and it would still do alot of damage.
Hellion and marine drops can be shut down by speedlings, and maybe a spore and a spine, and will only cause minimal annoyance/mining time lost.
Hellbat drops on the other hand, can kill infinite amount of speedlings and queens just slowly scratch them. a properly micro'd medivac can't be taken out by a queen, either. The costs of dealing with it (esp. early game), does not justify the cheapness of such harassive options.
The new crackivacs also make it so they can drop inside the mineral line and not lose their vac at all, because of the superlow spore damage (15 per hit).
Even the absolute professionals continiously die on the ladder because of helbat drops, or do you never watch professional Zerg streams? (I'm only a top 25 master EU myself)
On June 10 2013 18:27 Zarahtra wrote: As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
Spines and queens? am I going to build 3-4 spines at my mineral lines to kill them in a decently quick fashion? And what if they triple/double drop? One queen per base is not going to cut it, and lings just evaporate. If I just use one queen, the mining time lost will be so significant that I'd better tap out immediately.
Also they can just get out of range of the spine and continue to be a nuisance, spines don't have super range and queens aren't significant enough.
Or imagine building early game static defense, followed by no drops at all :O! Imagine how far you'd be behind then. They dont have to drop, when going hellbats sadly.
After watching innovation just endlessly rallying Hellbat-vacs to the enemies base, regardless of faction or map, it does get a little tiring. Not saying hes a bad player, but it's just really predictable.
Even if you know its coming its so effective it need a huge defense. Innovation himself even expends a full bunker on each mineral line just to counter it. Needing a bunker in your mineral line is a little OTT.
On June 10 2013 20:25 Nekovivie wrote: After watching innovation just endlessly rallying Hellbat-vacs to the enemies base, regardless of faction or map, it does get a little tiring. Not saying hes a bad player, but it's just really predictable.
Even if you know its coming its so effective it need a huge defense. Innovation himself even expends a full bunker on each mineral line just to counter it. Needing a bunker in your mineral line is a little OTT.
And as you can see EVEN the bunker cant prevent 6 hellbats to masacre your mineral line in 2 sec...
In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
On June 10 2013 20:25 Nekovivie wrote: After watching innovation just endlessly rallying Hellbat-vacs to the enemies base, regardless of faction or map, it does get a little tiring. Not saying hes a bad player, but it's just really predictable.
Even if you know its coming its so effective it need a huge defense. Innovation himself even expends a full bunker on each mineral line just to counter it. Needing a bunker in your mineral line is a little OTT.
And as you can see EVEN the bunker cant prevent 6 hellbats to masacre your mineral line in 2 sec...
I'd hope that 18 supply(or 900/300) would win/deal dmg against 4(or 300/0). There are so many people that just seem to want to go back to the old WoL-yawnfest where no aggression is possible before 3 bases.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
Yeah, learn to play MVP!
The issue, as mentioned 100 time before is that hellbats produce faster and are cheaper than any of the above option, rendering other builds inferior, hence making the MU stale. I do not care thoug as of now, since in masters you can get away with the stupidest shit, like the things you mentioned above. But for watching pros, variaty needs to be viable.
I stated Hellbats were clearly OP like over a month ago, and predicted the prevalence of Hellbat drops in every matchup due to their ridiculous cost efficiency. Not really surprised to see it coming to fruition.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
I'm sure Mvp losing all his workers in multiple games qualifies him as an 'unskilled terran'
Hellbats are expendable, your mineral line isn't. They kill too quickly, and as aforementioned, coupled with medivac boost, often means they get out with no damage..
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
L2p is not the issue. If you see the two best Terrans in the world going only this stuff and losing to it, its because they need to learn??? A turret cant stop 6 or 10 hellbats to kill all your mineral line.Mvp will drop on your MMM or tanks and will still be able to kill them without losign much.Bunkers do not prevent this as well.Banshees?? GL killing healed hellbats in lees tan 2 sec,before all your SCVs die.PF? Come on...build it in your main or natural and HF winning the game hehe
IMO, leave the health the same for the hellbat as the hellion and keep it mechanical, Give it a beefier armour profile (say +2) in the hellbat form and maybe slightly tone back the bonus dmg against light by ~3dmg so its 18(+9 light).
They're definitely too strong in the current meta game, if they werent you'd see more variety in TvT openings. Theres no need to ask pro terrans what they're opinion is - we've seen them play, if they didnt think it was that good you'd see a lot more variety in their play.
On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote: The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?
The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.
LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...
We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.
Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.
Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game. If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
and a double/triple hellbat drop from the terran, versus zerg, cuts off _all_ mining, will get a few drone kills and zerg is stuck with speedlings/queens to deal with it. Spines don't nearly work well enough to be effective.
On June 10 2013 20:07 NapkinBox wrote: I don't think removing the bio tag from Hellbats would make any difference outside of engagements.
When a base has proper defense, a hellbat drop will do little to no damage. Most of the time when you see Hellbats take out a large amount of workers it's because there was nothing protecting the base from those drops; it could have been a marine or hellion drop and it would still do alot of damage.
Hellion and marine drops can be shut down by speedlings, and maybe a spore and a spine, and will only cause minimal annoyance/mining time lost.
Hellbat drops on the other hand, can kill infinite amount of speedlings and queens just slowly scratch them. a properly micro'd medivac can't be taken out by a queen, either. The costs of dealing with it (esp. early game), does not justify the cheapness of such harassive options.
The new crackivacs also make it so they can drop inside the mineral line and not lose their vac at all, because of the superlow spore damage (15 per hit).
Even the absolute professionals continiously die on the ladder because of helbat drops, or do you never watch professional Zerg streams? (I'm only a top 25 master EU myself)
On June 10 2013 18:27 Zarahtra wrote: As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
Spines and queens? am I going to build 3-4 spines at my mineral lines to kill them in a decently quick fashion? And what if they triple/double drop? One queen per base is not going to cut it, and lings just evaporate. If I just use one queen, the mining time lost will be so significant that I'd better tap out immediately.
Also they can just get out of range of the spine and continue to be a nuisance, spines don't have super range and queens aren't significant enough.
Or imagine building early game static defense, followed by no drops at all :O! Imagine how far you'd be behind then. They dont have to drop, when going hellbats sadly.
So your post makes it sound that hellbats are too hard to stop in ZvT. Please explain to me: - why we see zergs winning tournaments. Every Z should lose to terrans using the hellbat drop. - why we see no terran ladder domination
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
L2p is not the issue. If you see the two best Terrans in the world going only this stuff and losing to it, its because they need to learn??? A turret cant stop 6 or 10 hellbats to kill all your mineral line.Mvp will drop on your MMM or tanks and will still be able to kill them without losign much.Bunkers do not prevent this as well.Banshees?? GL killing healed hellbats in lees tan 2 sec,before all your SCVs die.PF? Come on...build it in your main or natural and HF winning the game hehe
That was one set of game. The Pros will adapt and counter. Give it 2 - 6 months.
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
On June 10 2013 07:49 Seiniyta wrote: Just add an upgrade to the Command Center which makes SCV's 50% more resiliant against fire attacks. 50 minerals/ 50 gas.
Yeah I like it, because it doesn't mess with other MUs in which Hellbats are NOT broken.
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
So,what about more HP but less damage? 150 HP and less damage than BFH? This still will make TvP mech possible(I am one of the meching in TvP and without the hellbat buffer I am dead),because we can still use widow mines with the upgrade to harass and believe me,they are even better than hellbats with the 1sec burrow.Will be the next upgrade to disappear...
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
simple as that, case closed guys
This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day
On June 10 2013 01:44 NadaSound wrote: It think the hellbat is fine, but the healing by the medivac is the true problem. They are not so bad when there is no medivac around.
this can work but you have to remember that even then the drops in the mineral line are still really annoying. i would like to see this though because it is bullshit that a unit out of the factory can be biological. then i want to see my collosus becoming biological too so it can be healed in teamgames.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
simple as that, case closed guys
This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day
Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius.
On June 10 2013 01:44 NadaSound wrote: It think the hellbat is fine, but the healing by the medivac is the true problem. They are not so bad when there is no medivac around.
this can work but you have to remember that even then the drops in the mineral line are still really annoying. i would like to see this though because it is bullshit that a unit out of the factory can be biological. then i want to see my collosus becoming biological too so it can be healed in teamgames.
Yeah, they are annoying, so let's nerf them! On a serious note: 4 marines dropped in your mineral line do as much damage and are also annoying.
The main problem is not about the damage of Hellbat but its huge HP. With proper defense, the damage will not be so huge, but even though with proper defense, huge HP hellbat still takes a lot of mining time out of the opponent, making it's such an efficient harassment tool.
Com'on, a 135HP, 50dmg+ to light, fast speed when combine with speedvac, and production price is so cheap (100 mineral)???
If mech is not viable, it's the other MECH units' fault, and Blizz please go buff them, not create a monstrous tool like Hellbat.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
simple as that, case closed guys
This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day
Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius.
Indeed it is. Try thinking out of the box once in a while or you could spend the rest of your life being a "button pusher"
Basically i am stating too early for changes give it 6 months and let the Pros work it out
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
simple as that, case closed guys
This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day
Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius.
god fucking damnit, why didn't we discover this earlier?
On June 10 2013 21:24 MasterDrone wrote: The main problem is not about the damage of Hellbat but its huge HP. With proper defense, the damage will not be so huge, but even though with proper defense, huge HP hellbat still takes a lot of mining time out of the opponent, making it's such an efficient harassment tool.
Com'on, a 135HP, 50dmg+ to light, fast speed when combine with speedvac, and production price is so cheap (100 mineral)???
If mech is not viable, it's the other MECH units' fault, and Blizz please go buff them, not create a monstrous tool like Hellbat.
30 + 3 per upgrade actually, but you're right, a few hyperboles can't hurt.
On June 10 2013 03:22 Fig wrote: One Baneling explodes to do 35 splash damage to light One Hellbat does 30 splash damage to light each attack
Wow -_-
and banes cost gas
man thats a good comparison. the banling dies whilst the hellbat can continue attacking.
things are not adding up yo. dont even need to be good at maths.
different races are different, or do you want to compare roaches with marines now?
lol... u have compare units with relation.
the marine is 50 mins and no hp long range and high dps. the roach is super tank cost gas and has not range so you wouldnt compare them. instead u might compare the marine to the ling.
banes to the hellbat is a ok to compare because they do same damage just about and have very close range fighting with splash. id say the connection is sound enough to compare.
so dont go saying u cant compare units and races, its a huge part of the game to draw these ideas and comparisons out.
On June 10 2013 03:22 Fig wrote: One Baneling explodes to do 35 splash damage to light One Hellbat does 30 splash damage to light each attack
Wow -_-
and banes cost gas
man thats a good comparison. the banling dies whilst the hellbat can continue attacking.
things are not adding up yo. dont even need to be good at maths.
different races are different, or do you want to compare roaches with marines now?
lol... u have compare units with relation.
the marine is 50 mins and no hp long range and high dps. the roach is super tank cost gas and has not range so you wouldnt compare them. instead u might compare the marine to the ling.
banes to the hellbat is a ok to compare because they do same damage just about and have very close range fighting with splash. id say the connection is sound enough to compare.
so dont go saying u cant compare units and races, its a huge part of the game to draw these ideas and comparisons out.
Comparing Banelings and Hellbats makes no more sense than comparing Banelings and Archons because they're "(generally anti-bio) short-ranged AoE damage dealers".
Compare having hellbats in your economy line with having 4 hellions(blueflame or not) in your economy line. What do you like more? Seriously, one can defend vs. Hellbat drops by simply pulling off drones/scv/probes.
I just think that Hellbats do move SC2 more in a broodwar-esque direction, since you can die so quickly - whether by a hellbat drop, an oracle raging around for 5 secs (should be enough for 10 scvs..) or a bigger pack of speed mutas. or, wait, 2 banelings burrowed in the mineral line (why doesn't anyone do so?) before the base is planted down .
After all, stop crying, learn to deal with hellbats. Only thing that could be changed IMO: make them more fragile, remove like 20 hp or so. That change would require the attacker to have a better control, so that the attacker's skill should matter a bit more.
When you look at some games of MVP vs Innovation, you see that there is some kind of issue. when the only units made before 12ish minutes are only hellbats medivac and vikings that is close to absurd. Viking are only there to counter hellbat drop and as a ground defense against hellbat drop they use... guess what : DEFENSIVE HELLBAT DROP! WTF! seriously this strategy is so overwhelming the other kind of harass/ defense that it replace every kind of early game both defensively and offensively.
For the sake of this game they need to do something with hellbat drop. Like the idea of making medivac can't use afterburner when carrying mech units. But if you look in term of design perspective it makes too much specific rule for just 1 unit the hellbat! Hope they will use Lotv as an excuse to delete hellbat and replace it by something better
On June 10 2013 05:48 Big G wrote: Just tweak the damage so +1 weapons upgrade or blue flame is required to 2-shot workers.
This sounds quite smart to me.
Also the medivac boost if half the reason they are so good at killing workers. So either tweak that or remove the bio part, which is the more obvious, easier change.
On June 10 2013 05:48 Big G wrote: Just tweak the damage so +1 weapons upgrade or blue flame is required to 2-shot workers.
This sounds quite smart to me.
Also the medivac boost if half the reason they are so good at killing workers. So either tweak that or remove the bio part, which is the more obvious, easier change.
I'd agree with this change for sure. It's not knee-jerk, as 3 shots is still fine if you're dropping several hellbats and they dont react, but it's not instant 20 worker kills if you drop two of them and pickup in 2 seconds.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part
storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked.
baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to
i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong.
hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
how to deal with hellbat drops through good play and fast reactions rather than over-investing in defenses hellbat drops are defended more through reaction time and being prepared rather than having enough investment of defenses. 3 stalkers and a cannon with a quick probe pull gets you much farther than 3 stalkers 2 cannons and no probe pull. deal with the medivac, pull your workers and cleanup is the way to go rather than enough damage output to completely fuck this over before anything can drop, that amount of damage output investment is unrealistic against a boosted medivac into any mineral line at any point of the game.
hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least.
defending the hellbat drop -turret in your mineral line ensures the medivac dies if it hunts the evacuating scvs -widow mine in the mineral line close to guarantees killing the medivac
now to actually cleaning up the hellbats, you need either hellbats, hellions, marines, or marines in a bunker. things like landing viking or a flying banshee wont kill them quick enough to make the loss of miniing time not be damage enough (even if 0 scvs dies if they have to stop mining for 10-20 seconds it can be more damage done than the 2 hellbat investment)
metagame evolving hellbat drops used to be more effective way to play than trying to defend hellbat drops. but now people have learned so many ways to deal with them and ending up ahead after each failed drop that the defending player ends up ahead. its really all about having proper defenses at home while trying to hellbat drop your opponent to make sure he has proper defenses at home so you dont end up behind. i think this is not a big issue in tvt, the hellbat drop just dictates a lot just like gas first=> banshee or elevator tactics in early game. why does it have to be a bad thing that the threat is part of the game and you have to invest in proper defenses? the tvt's over course of few weeks now have evolved a lot, people have not tried to hellbat drop less but they have gone from "suicide hellbats into your opponent until he dies" to "ok this guy has a viking defenses and turret up, lets back off and play macro game"
what nerf exactly you had in mind? how exactly do you plan on "nerfing hellbat drops?". medivac boost doesnt seem to strong with bio i think, or in general. hellbats deal 30 damage, workers have 40~ hp, you need an insane nerf to make them not 2 shot workers that its not fair to consider it. the stats they have play out in a pretty fair way outside of hellbat drops. removing the heal doesnt change the fact that they destroy a mineral line instantly if they dont react quickly. not allowing hellbats into medivacs would for sure kill hellbat drops, however this mechanic is very good when it comes to terran vs terran fights. also dealing with bio drops as a mech user since turret rings dont drop boosted medivacs, you use your own boosted medivacs and drop hellbats on bio drops to defend. plus i dont think hellbat drops is ruining the game at all and that it should be impossible to load hellbats into medivacs. thats pretty much a wrap in my opinion, even if i thought it needed a nerf i cant come up with a nerf that is a good change or justifiable
conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
On June 10 2013 21:40 klup wrote: When you look at some games of MVP vs Innovation, you see that there is some kind of issue. when the only units made before 12ish minutes are only hellbats medivac and vikings that is close to absurd. Viking are only there to counter hellbat drop and as a ground defense against hellbat drop they use... guess what : DEFENSIVE HELLBAT DROP! WTF! seriously this strategy is so overwhelming the other kind of harass/ defense that it replace every kind of early game both defensively and offensively.
For the sake of this game they need to do something with hellbat drop. Like the idea of making medivac can't use afterburner when carrying mech units. But if you look in term of design perspective it makes too much specific rule for just 1 unit the hellbat! Hope they will use Lotv as an excuse to delete hellbat and replace it by something better
As long as there is the option to hellbat drop yourself and there is no BO-disadvantage possible from hellbat dropping, the obvious solution is to always hellbat drop. That's why TvT is hellbat drop vs hellbat drop. It's the easy way out, not the best way to deal with hellbats, but the one that always works against each of your opponents builds. (unlike a defensive roach build that is complete bullshit in ZvT if the Terran does not hellbat drop or hellion allin, or massing stalkers at home as Protoss instead of teching/upgrading and containing a Terran with few offensive stalkers)
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech vs toss in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
Hellbat wars are awesome, hellbat drops are the coolest thing in SC2. People just have to learm to adapt to them. Yes they are strong units, but they require a massive commitment in tech, and delays other tech by a long time. If you want an early game hellbat drop, then dont expect Stim and CS finished before 11mins. Oracles can kill workers just as fast as a hellbat drop.
It's all part of the Meta, and as usual, Protoss and Zergs are just looking for an excuse to nerf Terran just because T won a tournament and note how the whining starts immediately after the tournament ends. The Meta game should be left alone for at least a few months, if by then every single TvT is hellbats then yes Blizzard should look at it.
There is a massive vulnerability in defence in a standard hellbat drop rush build, I am sure players will start adapting builds to exploit this timing, just watch and see. Even something as crazy as fe into 2 port Viking/raven/banshee would destroy hellbat builds.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
Terran has the best unit to stop hellbat drops then why does e very pro terran seem to fail so hard and lacking in good response? Obvious answer is that it comes out to fast early, midgame you can't really afford that much static and leaving too many units in fringe expos. Late game is when hellbat drops should lose value since you can build turrets everywhere unless you get to the extrem late game when everything is mind out and every kill counts then hellbatdrop should be valid again. I don't really mind the hellbat drop thingy and drop TvT is really funny to watch but it is still too strong.
On June 10 2013 22:08 Lock0n wrote: Hellbat wars are awesome, hellbat drops are the coolest thing in SC2. People just have to learm to adapt to them. Yes they are strong units, but they require a massive commitment in tech, and delays other tech by a long time. If you want an early game hellbat drop, then dont expect Stim and CS finished before 11mins. Oracles can kill workers just as fast as a hellbat drop. + Show Spoiler +
It's all part of the Meta, and as usual, Protoss and Zergs are just looking for an excuse to nerf Terran just because T won a tournament and note how the whining starts immediately after the tournament ends. The Meta game should be left alone for at least a few months, if by then every single TvT is hellbats then yes Blizzard should look at it.
There is a massive vulnerability in defence in a standard hellbat drop rush build, I am sure players will start adapting builds to exploit this timing, just watch and see. Even something as crazy as fe into 2 port Viking/raven/banshee would destroy hellbat builds.
Well, hellbat drops don't die to 5 marines just saying.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
L2p is not the issue. If you see the two best Terrans in the world going only this stuff and losing to it, its because they need to learn??? A turret cant stop 6 or 10 hellbats to kill all your mineral line.Mvp will drop on your MMM or tanks and will still be able to kill them without losign much.Bunkers do not prevent this as well.Banshees?? GL killing healed hellbats in lees tan 2 sec,before all your SCVs die.PF? Come on...build it in your main or natural and HF winning the game hehe
That was one set of game. The Pros will adapt and counter. Give it 2 - 6 months.
This post by the OP is a balance whine.
He just says they're fine, that MUs are balanced overall but that hellbat are too strong in mineral lines, we've seen way worse here. For once it was an interested read on balance, which is not often. The problem is that if we remove this powerful weapon in terran's arsenal, do they need a slight compensation elsewhere? I'd rather wait and see.
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it?
No changes required for the following reasons:-
Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:-
Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats
The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :-
1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend
This is a learn to play issue simple as that.
Terran has the best unit to stop hellbat drops then why does e very pro terran seem to fail so hard and lacking in good response? Obvious answer is that it comes out to fast early, midgame you can't really afford that much static and leaving too many units in fringe expos. Late game is when hellbat drops should lose value since you can build turrets everywhere unless you get to the extrem late game when everything is mind out and every kill counts then hellbatdrop should be valid again. I don't really mind the hellbat drop thingy and drop TvT is really funny to watch but it is still too strong.
On June 10 2013 22:08 Lock0n wrote: Hellbat wars are awesome, hellbat drops are the coolest thing in SC2. People just have to learm to adapt to them. Yes they are strong units, but they require a massive commitment in tech, and delays other tech by a long time. If you want an early game hellbat drop, then dont expect Stim and CS finished before 11mins. Oracles can kill workers just as fast as a hellbat drop. + Show Spoiler +
It's all part of the Meta, and as usual, Protoss and Zergs are just looking for an excuse to nerf Terran just because T won a tournament and note how the whining starts immediately after the tournament ends. The Meta game should be left alone for at least a few months, if by then every single TvT is hellbats then yes Blizzard should look at it.
There is a massive vulnerability in defence in a standard hellbat drop rush build, I am sure players will start adapting builds to exploit this timing, just watch and see. Even something as crazy as fe into 2 port Viking/raven/banshee would destroy hellbat builds.
Well, hellbat drops don't die to 5 marines just saying.
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
Sorry, I miswrote that post, meant mech vs toss. But apparently there a good buffer isn't required...
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine cf. Marine/Tank play.
EDIT:
Defending this unit is far more "hilarious" than even the most retarded nerf suggestion could ever be
Fairly certain you were whining about hellbats the other day but the unit is pretty much fine. Probably needs a blue flame nerf to stop them instantly murdering entire worker lines but other than that? Nothing big.
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
how to deal with hellbat drops through good play and fast reactions rather than over-investing in defenses hellbat drops are defended more through reaction time and being prepared rather than having enough investment of defenses. 3 stalkers and a cannon with a quick probe pull gets you much farther than 3 stalkers 2 cannons and no probe pull. deal with the medivac, pull your workers and cleanup is the way to go rather than enough damage output to completely fuck this over before anything can drop, that amount of damage output investment is unrealistic against a boosted medivac into any mineral line at any point of the game.
hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least.
Hey, I wanted to ask a follow up question: Doesn't that mean that it is the exact same in all matchups? Like, in TvZ and TvP it is defendable if you play properly as P/Z. In TvT it is defendable without going hellbats yourself, if you play properly. You usually get to even footing if the defending P/Z/T does a good job.
So, would you say that the only reason why TvT is both players doing hellbat drops, is that the hellbat drop usually gets you on even footing if your opponent is prepared, so there is little reason not to hellbat drop. Ergo, hellbat drops are simply the best catchall build in TvT, though there would be other possibilities to get even with hellbat drops as well?
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
"Everyone likes it".
>_>
EDIT:
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
Agreed on that part. The hellbat has made all the TvX matchups less stale, but I am sure it kicks the shit out of some lower level players(hell, it kicks my ass). People who want to play a super-turtle-macro style must hate them. If anything, I think that all three races could use a little boost to some part of their anti-air suite, but that is it. I have always felt that anti air in SC2 is a bit lack luster(with the exception of the marine, but now they are a bit underwhelming in HotS too) and a little buff would go a long way.
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
"Everyone likes it".
>_>
EDIT:
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
Ok, then. We must stop complaining.Me, as a player find the "hellbat wars" boring, disgusting and chaotic to execute,but then you see ZvZ and there are lot of "baneling wars".Maybe we SHOULD adapt and learn that it has become part of the early game in TvT,as is the banshee,hellion or widow mine harass.Still dont like it,but if this is the way to go in TvT.. As a viewer...It is very micro intensive and pretty exciting for casters, but I still dont like it and find it too low skill to execute. Send the medivac,hope for a bad enemy defense and kill 12 workers almost instantly wont make me believe the T is one of the best in the world. If every game is like this...At least in ZvZ they can stop banelings with some roaches or spines and its difficult to reach the mineral line and thats why its so great to see...
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
"Everyone likes it".
>_>
EDIT:
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
Ok, then. We must stop complaining.Me, as a player find the "hellbat wars" boring, disgusting and chaotic to execute,but then you see ZvZ and there are lot of "baneling wars".Maybe we SHOULD adapt and learn that it has become part of the early game in TvT,as is the banshee,hellion or widow mine harass.Still dont like it,but if this is the way to go in TvT.. As a viewer...It is very micro intensive and pretty exciting for casters, but I still dont like it and find it too low skill to execute. Send the medivac,hope for a bad enemy defense and kill 12 workers almost instantly wont make me believe the T is one of the best in the world. If every game is like this...At least in ZvZ they can stop banelings with some roaches or spines and its difficult to reach the mineral line and thats why its so great to see...
Remember how long it took for players to build Evo Chambers in ZvZ to create chokes? People are obviously adapting as you can see at pro level. Not all strategies involve the same amount of micro, it´s always been like that. But a good defense renders a blind hellbat drop into the mineral line useless. E.g. what we´re seeing in PvT is Toss building one cannon per mineral line. Hellbat automatically attack the cannon and give you additional time to pull probes, same goes for spines.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part
storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked.
baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to
i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong.
hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat. Removing the heal would reduce the amount of time you need to kill them obviously, so it will be less stronger in fight against little amount of units, making it easier to defend, but this would not remove the threat of the Hellbat drop itself.
Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part
storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked.
baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to
i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong.
hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat.
Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL.
Which basically just means that hellbat drops are more or less a standard build. It usually doesn't fall behind against most things, but may straight up win sometimes. Which is not different to a 6queen build in TvZ, which may straight up win against an overagressive Terran and break even in most other cases. And still, even if it doesn't fall behind greatly, I think winning after perfectly defending hellbat drops is still a better situation, than not allinning against a 3CC double ebay.
I tried to make this post the least about whining post. But I guess people can believe what they want. I think they are totally fine in other MUs.
I am a Terran player myself. GO TERRAN METAL!
I just want to get more insight.
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
Comparing Hellbat drop to other Terran's options (Banshee, BFHellions drop/run by, widow mine...etc), do you think Hellbat is one of the most rewarding but also the safest strategy?
hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least.
I understand most TvT games that open with Hellbat doesn't end early, can often transition into mid-late game. But is Hellbat drop slowly becoming the dominant opener? If so, do you think it hurts the variety of early TvT. If not, what other standard builds are great to open TvT?
defending the hellbat drop -turret in your mineral line ensures the medivac dies if it hunts the evacuating scvs -widow mine in the mineral line close to guarantees killing the medivac
now to actually cleaning up the hellbats, you need either hellbats, hellions, marines, or marines in a bunker. things like landing viking or a flying banshee wont kill them quick enough to make the loss of miniing time not be damage enough (even if 0 scvs dies if they have to stop mining for 10-20 seconds it can be more damage done than the 2 hellbat investment)
Comparing Hellbat drop to other TvT options. Do you think it is true that Hellbat drop requires more defense investment to shut down? If so, does that mean opening Hellbat drop is favored because it forces your opponent to invest? I understand this doesn't apply to lower level play as one extra bunker and turret will not cause you the game. But what if it is the highest level?
conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
It is fair enough to wait and see. Respect everyone's opinion.
Again, not a post about "Let's nerf it right now, it is ruining Esport right this moment but "Is it time to look at hellbat? Is it becoming the best choice in TvT which makes the match up one dimension."
On June 10 2013 23:01 bhfberserk wrote: Comparing Hellbat drop to other Terran's options (Banshee, BFHellions drop/run by, widow mine...etc), do you think Hellbat is one of the most rewarding but also the safest strategy?
I'd say so, yes. Main reason is because Hellbat's naturally transition into a normal game, essentially going hellbats IS a normal game.
If you go for something like cloak banshee you're investing a huge amount of early game resource into something you'll probably never use again. Edit; not to mention if you don't do any damage with cloak banshee, you're almost guaranteed to lose.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part
storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked.
baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to
i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong.
hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat.
Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL.
Which basically just means that hellbat drops are more or less a standard build. It usually doesn't fall behind against most things, but may straight up win sometimes. Which is not different to a 6queen build in TvZ, which may straight up win against an overagressive Terran and break even in most other cases. And still, even if it doesn't fall behind greatly, I think winning after perfectly defending hellbat drops is still a better situation, than not allinning against a 3CC double ebay.
Well, then the question is to ask wether it is normal if it's a standard. it's seems to me, from my understanding of the game, that it's a build that either win you the game right when it's done, put you way ahead when it's done or, worst case scenario, a little bit behind and then the game continue. Proxy 2 rax, proxy reaper, good old 2 factory blue flame hellion and so on are all build that can also finish the game, but they are more risks involved to do it, defending them put you ahead, the ratio between reward/risk seems too big for the HB drop compared to other build.
there is one big thing that seems to be forgotten: Hellbats are slow as xxx. Workers are way faster than hellbats. The scary thing is pickup micro, which can easily be avoided by standard aa defense. A marine drop into a workerline is guaranteed dmg. A hellbat drop does hope for the opponent to not react to be able to do any dmg at all, except delay mining a little bit until the drop is cleared.
And the "good tactical positioning": a bunch of marines, a mine, a siegetank, a turret, all those deny hellbatdrops as well as any other drops. In tvt there is no dying to hellbat drops, as long as u care for defense. I am way more scared by Hellion runbays or early mine /marine assaults than by the easy to figure out hellbats. If both sides go nuts on offensive than its the same for both sides, but as long as you know the hellbats are coming, they are guaranteed to do zero dmg. Its the same as 1 base widowmine drop opener vs 1 base dts.
hellbats are stupid cuz they can be repaired and healed, take the freaking healing away from mech units so the drops can actually be killed without sacrificing so much plus the dropship speed makes it hard to react "in time" even if u see it kinda coming. the hellbeat itself isnt mega strong, its just the other stuff that makes them mindboggling retarded (imo)
I agree with everything that was said about the TvT hellbat drops. I was getting annoyed watching it happen over and over again during the Innovation and MVP match.
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats?
looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed
hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things.
oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part
storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked.
baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to
i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong.
hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this.
It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat.
Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL.
Which basically just means that hellbat drops are more or less a standard build. It usually doesn't fall behind against most things, but may straight up win sometimes. Which is not different to a 6queen build in TvZ, which may straight up win against an overagressive Terran and break even in most other cases. And still, even if it doesn't fall behind greatly, I think winning after perfectly defending hellbat drops is still a better situation, than not allinning against a 3CC double ebay.
Well, then the question is to ask wether it is normal if it's a standard. it's seems to me, from my understanding of the game, that it's a build that either win you the game right when it's done, put you way ahead when it's done or, worst case scenario, a little bit behind and then the game continue. Proxy 2 rax, proxy reaper, good old 2 factory blue flame hellion and so on are all build that can also finish the game, but they are more risks involved to do it, defending them put you ahead, the ratio between reward/risk seems too big for the HB drop compared to other build.
the difference is hellbat drop pretty much goes down to skill and your opponent being good at the game while a 2rax proxi is more of a flat out coinflip that loses or wins depending on your opponents build.
nexus=>stargate oracle can win you games if your opponent doesnt have 6 marines in position in the right location or doesnt have missile turrets up just like a hellbat drop can win the game. arriving with mutas without defenses can win you the game aswell. all of these things doesnt have to deal damage if you do them macro-oriented after expanding while doing them on 1base (or 2base muta) means you need to do serious damage. starcraft 2 is just a game where you can lose just like that if your not good enough, these things doesnt have to kill you - but they can. its heavy blow harassment that are macro oriented. an oracle helps you in the macro game alot, so does a medivac and hellbats and so does mutalisks.
a cloak banshee or dark templar rush or nydus networks are more in the category of allin because they are outside of the tools you want to have in the standard game
I agree with most of what has been said about the unit. This has been an issue since beta, that they tried to resolve by limiting it to 2 hellbats per medivac. However, it just isn't enough, I think. The 2 big issues, from my perspective are:
1. The cost effectiveness and potential risk/reward payoff everyone is talking about. It is just almost always a good gamble to risk 200 minerals for the chance to basically win the game. Even if nothing happens, what did you really lose?
2. The hellbat, stat-wise, is sort of an uber unit right now. Its original design was sold as a cheap unit for terran mech that could absorb damage for the more expensive units (tanks/thors), as well as deal with very zealot heavy play against protoss (which tended to destroy mech pretty easily in WoL). That is why it was given biological, so medivacs could heal it while it "tanked" damage for the... tanks. Then people realized if you put them in a medivac (esp back when you could fit 4 in), it became an insta-win if the opponent wasn't watching their mineral line. Its sort of "accidentally" the best harass unit terran has now (and they have amazing harass units). Now, I have no problem with units being used outside of their "intended" role, but they can't be amazing at everything; that just isn't balanced. Right now the hellbat is that tanky front line unit for mech, but it also just happens to outshine basically every other harassment option in the game as well. That is too strong of a unit.
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
"Everyone likes it".
>_>
EDIT:
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
I didn't realise that the OED changed the meaning of "everyone". Sorry.
As a pro player he is obviously going be talking about the peers he plays with/against, other pro players.
Not that other levels of player won't improve at stopping them.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
PS: As a zerg, a single spore and a spine & queen per mineral line is enough for deterrent hellbats drops. Good ovie positioning and just retreat the drones. Clean the mess (the medivac will die with the spore) and keep mining.
I think the power of the hellbat harassment comes more from the speedboost medivac then from the hellbat itself. As said before, hellbats are slow, it's really hard to get them into a good position. But when you can put them into a super fast medivac, the potential drop micro becomes really scary. Therefore I would lean towards a changing the medivac rather than the hellbat. I think significantly reducing the hitpoints of the medivac might be an option. That would be a reasonable trade-off to the higher speed medivacs gained in HOTS. Opinions on that?
Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops. And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
PS: As a zerg, a single spore and a spine & queen per mineral line is enough for deterrent hellbats drops. Good ovie positioning and just retreat the drones. Clean the mess (the medivac will die with the spore) and keep mining.
To be fair, a lot of people asking for the Reaver to be brought back didn't really know what they were asking for. That thing would make the Hellbat easy to stop. Reavers wouldn't even need to go into the mineral line. It would be like a widow mine that could fire from farther away without burrowing and did more damage.
Didn't Reavers in BW require two hits to kill workers? That by itself would mitigate the damage extensively as neither the Reaver nor the prism/shuttle would be able to run the fleeing workers down after the first shot.
On June 11 2013 00:19 Xequecal wrote: Didn't Reavers in BW require two hits to kill workers? That by itself would mitigate the damage extensively as neither the Reaver nor the prism/shuttle would be able to run the fleeing workers down after the first shot.
It could one a shot a blob of works if they were close enough together. It could also shoot glitter if it bugged out. The Reaver was a harsh mistress.
On June 11 2013 00:19 Xequecal wrote: Didn't Reavers in BW require two hits to kill workers? That by itself would mitigate the damage extensively as neither the Reaver nor the prism/shuttle would be able to run the fleeing workers down after the first shot.
It could one a shot a blob of works if they were close enough together. It could also shoot glitter if it bugged out. The Reaver was a harsh mistress.
You probably have to take into account the fact that workers were far harder to run away in BW. In any case, the Reaver worked more like a Widow Mine drop than a Hellbat drop, right..?
The damage was widow mine-like, but the micro was similar to hellbats, drop, pick up, reposition, drop, pick up, etc.
On June 11 2013 00:19 Xequecal wrote: Didn't Reavers in BW require two hits to kill workers? That by itself would mitigate the damage extensively as neither the Reaver nor the prism/shuttle would be able to run the fleeing workers down after the first shot.
It could one a shot a blob of works if they were close enough together. It could also shoot glitter if it bugged out. The Reaver was a harsh mistress.
You probably have to take into account the fact that workers were far harder to run away in BW. In any case, the Reaver worked more like a Widow Mine drop than a Hellbat drop, right..?
The damage was widow mine-like, but the micro was similar to hellbats, drop, pick up, reposition, drop, pick up, etc.
I'm not gonna enter the debate because it's pointless, but if you want to compare units from differents games, might as well think about the unit walk speed, building time, costs, tech, AI...
On June 11 2013 00:19 Xequecal wrote: Didn't Reavers in BW require two hits to kill workers? That by itself would mitigate the damage extensively as neither the Reaver nor the prism/shuttle would be able to run the fleeing workers down after the first shot.
It could one a shot a blob of works if they were close enough together. It could also shoot glitter if it bugged out. The Reaver was a harsh mistress.
You probably have to take into account the fact that workers were far harder to run away in BW. In any case, the Reaver worked more like a Widow Mine drop than a Hellbat drop, right..?
The damage was widow mine-like, but the micro was similar to hellbats, drop, pick up, reposition, drop, pick up, etc.
And the Reaver did 100 Splash Damage and workers had similar health to what they do in SC2. The amount of damage one could do was life ruining. I never player BW at any reasonable level at all, but I did know that reavers drops were the thing of nightmares. Speed shuttles moved at warp speed across your 640x480 display and dropped a tiny hate cannon down in your base.
In many ways, hellbat drops look tame compared to that.
On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote: Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops. And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote: Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops. And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
No, he is saying, "I deal with it fine and pros seem to have it in hand too. People who are whining might want to look at their own play."
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
Ugh... recently I practice vs reality and he multitask multiple hellbat drop and macro very well, much like innovation can do. Even game where I only lose 2-4 worker, mining time lost puts zerg too far behind to win. Needs maybe 10-25 hp nerf, and or upgrade for the light damage. Anybody who think hellbat is not too cost efficient is just silly...
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
And I'm pretty sure people wanted the Reaver because the Colossus is so shit.
hellbat is fine imo, i dont even use them anymore in tvt, and with a bit of attention and preparation, i dont feel someone evenly matched can really hurt me with it (ok only platinum, but that means only platinum hellbatopponents)
in fact i am always surprised when progamers reorder their workers to the minerals way too fast or move chunks of them right through the hellbat, sure i move my worker not really efficient and probably too far away... but at least i dont run them back into hellfire...
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
And I'm pretty sure people wanted the Reaver because the Colossus is so shit.
I would take the Reaver. Hell, give it half damage from what it was in BW and I would still take it. I would be getting speed prisms and dropping that thing all over the place. Warp in some zealots, fire off some insta-worker killing blue balls of glitter and death.
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
And I'm pretty sure people wanted the Reaver because the Colossus is so shit.
I would take the Reaver. Hell, give it half damage from what it was in BW and I would still take it. I would be getting speed prisms and dropping that thing all over the place. Warp in some zealots, fire off some insta-worker killing blue balls of glitter and death.
Reavers would give protoss a high damage unit that has actual tradeoffs and thought required to use it correctly. Reaver micro was incredibly demanding and rewarding if you got a nice hit off on a worker line. Colossi are just really good almost regardless.
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
And I'm pretty sure people wanted the Reaver because the Colossus is so shit.
I would take the Reaver. Hell, give it half damage from what it was in BW and I would still take it. I would be getting speed prisms and dropping that thing all over the place. Warp in some zealots, fire off some insta-worker killing blue balls of glitter and death.
Reavers would give protoss a high damage unit that has actual tradeoffs and thought required to use it correctly. Reaver micro was incredibly demanding and rewarding if you got a nice hit off on a worker line. Colossi are just really good almost regardless.
My god. I just checked and Reavers costed 200/100 in BW. Why did they have to ruin it by making its attack terrible, putting it on stilts, and making it cost 300/200?
On June 10 2013 23:52 Eviscerador wrote: Everyone miss the Reaver.
Blizzard make something similar to reaver micro control with the hellbats medevac micro.
Everyone complains.
Fuck logic.
One is cheap, tough and has the versatility to be used in many stages of the game. The other is expensive, weak and has limited usefulness as the game proceeds. How's that for logic?
And I'm pretty sure people wanted the Reaver because the Colossus is so shit.
I would take the Reaver. Hell, give it half damage from what it was in BW and I would still take it. I would be getting speed prisms and dropping that thing all over the place. Warp in some zealots, fire off some insta-worker killing blue balls of glitter and death.
Reavers would give protoss a high damage unit that has actual tradeoffs and thought required to use it correctly. Reaver micro was incredibly demanding and rewarding if you got a nice hit off on a worker line. Colossi are just really good almost regardless.
My god. I just checked and Reavers costed 200/100 in BW. Why did they have to ruin it by making its attack terrible, putting it on stilts, and making it cost 300/200?
Yeah, the cost of two Hydralisk in SC2. I'll take that any day of the week and love it. Even if they did half damage, they could still one shot a blob of workers so good.
On June 11 2013 01:15 Ysellian wrote: The Reaver would be balanced if scarabs cost the same as a hellbat.
Or if they were incredibly slow and had a large delay after getting dropped.
lol. 2 sentries + reavers change things completely from BW. Oh and warp-ins to support the reavers.
If we're going to act like reavers would just be copy and pasted then you have to keep their same pathing and glitched shots too I guess, but colossi would be a better unit then.
On June 11 2013 01:15 Ysellian wrote: The Reaver would be balanced if scarabs cost the same as a hellbat.
Or if they were incredibly slow and had a large delay after getting dropped.
lol. 2 sentries + reavers change things completely from BW. Oh and warp-ins to support the reavers.
If we're going to act like reavers would just be copy and pasted then you have to keep their same pathing and glitched shots too I guess, but colossi would be a better unit then.
I don't know, the idea of reavers in Sc2 scares the shit out of me regardless of their lack of mobility and glitches I'd much rather play against the current colossi than a reaver.
I have a rather interesting idea: You can't build hellbats. After the armory is finished one hellion and one SCV can fusion into a hellbat.
-->explains more HP -->explains bio tag -->could be reversed to release SCVs for repair duty -->explains higher cargo slot
The numbers should be balanced around the increased cost. Hellbats are "self inflicted" harassment, similar to SCVs for bunker rushes or certain all ins.
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base.
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base.
Maybe some Terran players don't like a hellbat-dominated metagame? Just because you can fight it off doesn't mean it makes the game more fun in its current state.
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol.
The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself.
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol.
The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself.
The main build involving hellbats is reactor helion expand with 4 helions. Then, tech starport and armoury for double hellbat drops. This leaves you with 4 helions to keep the zerg on his side of the map. It's a flimsy build where A LOT can go wrong because you have minimal defense and you're teching hard. After losing more than I won, I just switched to regular helion harass and am doing far better. All this to say, the hellbat is not easy to use. It's micro intensive, the timing to do damage is small, and it leaves you weak at home.
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base.
Maybe some Terran players don't like a hellbat-dominated metagame? Just because you can fight it off doesn't mean it makes the game more fun in its current state.
I wouldn't call it hellbat dominated. Demuslim only started playing mech last week. Before that he played bio 95% of the time. Bio/tank is still popular. Personally, I think mech is better, but time will tell. We need more time.
On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote: Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops. And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
How to counter hellbat drops - go gas fe 1/1/2 with 2 early starports, one reactored and one tech lab, make Vikings/banshee/raven ie Skyterran. Make widow mines for defence. Use Viking banshee to kill hellbat drops, push at 10min with 3-4 banshees + raven and Vikings. Bring along widow mines and hellions to zone enemy Vikings, PDD with absorb turrets and Viking shots. Auto turret or Viking to absorb widow mines. Seeker on Thor (unlikely to have early Thor with hellbat build) Transition into Skyterran with hellion mines for support, and mass raven.
On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote: Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops. And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
What does that have to do with anything? Are you playing against those KR pros?
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol.
The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself.
The main build involving hellbats is reactor helion expand with 4 helions. Then, tech starport and armoury for double hellbat drops. This leaves you with 4 helions to keep the zerg on his side of the map. It's a flimsy build where A LOT can go wrong because you have minimal defense and you're teching hard. After losing more than I won, I just switched to regular helion harass and am doing far better. All this to say, the hellbat is not easy to use. It's micro intensive, the timing to do damage is small, and it leaves you weak at home.
Read again, he is talking TvT, not TvZ. And lol @reactored hellion expand in TvZ. Noone - apart from Gumiho who got roflstomped with this build by zergs - plays that build. It has been bad since early 2012 and HotS did not change any of its nonviability. The main hellbat build in TvZ is CC first into the regular reactored factory with 6 hellions, but instead of the 3rd CC, you take another gas and tech starport+armory and build 2hellbats and a medivac after the 6hellions and then either allin after several drops of two base with a fast stim, or start a 3rd CC and double ebays asap (or some factories if you prefer mech). Back to TvT now...
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it
27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it.
"Everyone likes it".
>_>
EDIT:
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly.
Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful".
On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used.
Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks.
Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution.
Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine
Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please.
In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP.
This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers.
Morrow is obviously referring to top level players.
I didn't realise that the OED changed the meaning of "everyone". Sorry.
As a pro player he is obviously going be talking about the peers he plays with/against, other pro players.
Not that other levels of player won't improve at stopping them.
I can call a cat a dog but it won't bark. Don't say "everyone" if you don't mean "everyone", words mean things.
No shit words mean things, but what if he was referring to 'everyone' in the pro scene huh?
I feel as if Blizzard is just coming up with random solutions that have no bearing in reality. I pointed the Hellbat out back in Beta:
*Why the fuck does the Hellion become a Biological unit with Increased HP?*
The answer is "We wanted to bring firebats back but couldn't introduce them into Rax for [X reason here] because we found that [Y build here] was too imba."
I get what they were trying to do but it literally makes no sense. They need to bring Hellbats unto the same stats as Hellions.
ALSO
Please, please stop bringing up the pros, people...
None of us are Pro, none of us will ever be Pro, and the fact that everyone brings up "Pro Balance" causes Blizzard to remove the fun from the game for the other 99.8% of us which is fucking ludicrous.
If Pro balance is such a goddamn issue then go back to making UMS maps for the WCS/ProLeague matchups with tweaked unit stats if that's that big a fucking deal.
The problem is that hellbat drops are so powerful in a match, say TvP, that the T can just continually suicide medivacs and hellbats while safely taking a 3rd and getting a great economy. Sure P can sort of defend with minor probe losses, but he'll never get ahead economically and never be able to harass or attack himself. Once T is ahead economically by being a whole base ahead despite throwing away units, then T can push and win or get further ahead. This is demonstrated clearly in game 1 of the WCS season 1 finals between sOs and Innovation. And this is the problem.
On many maps there is literally no way to defend "just enough" against hellbats. They are that powerful that you literally can do nothing else but keep up your normal macro, watch the skies, and pull workers when it is time. That is hardly a fun way to play the game... to defend and get further and further behind till you die.
I guess until it becomes such a huge problem, nothing will be done. Luckily I hear bronze through GM through Korean pros are starting to use them all the time. Patching time is coming sooner rather than later I expect.
In my opinion, the matchup is still evolving. Blizzard should be paying attention, but I would be surprised if there was a balance patch in the next month.
On June 10 2013 02:29 Lock0n wrote: Hellbat drops are actually very hard to do, it actually requires a sick amount of multitasking and micro and macro to make sure you get the right balance of offense and defence, and separates the good players from the poor. I think hellbat drops are great fun to watch, and there's always an excitement when the drops hit to see how much damage they can do. If anything, it's added more versatility to the matchup, and there is still a large variety in the matchup.
More attacking and drops is good, I agree. But if they are overwhelming, the game starts to become broken. By default the Starcraft community as a vocal whole just whines about anything that is hard to defend. That is wrong and is why WoL turned into trash by the end. I am pro action and pro aggression. But Terran aggression is just insane with things like the boosted medivac, and hellbats tip the scales a little in all matches. Time to do something about it I think.
On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base.
I personally find them boring. Heck, I called Hellions boring too if you go back far enough but come on man. Blue flame hellions and Hellbats almost serve the same purpose but with Hellbats you can heal them via medivacs. Nothing worse than having overlap.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
I'd rather judge someone based on their ideas rather than on that comma that the end of their sentence replacing the period, or the semicolon where the colon should be, but hey to each their own. It is the internet.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
I'd rather judge someone based on their ideas rather than on that comma that the end of their sentence replacing the period, or the semicolon where the colon should be, but hey to each their own. It is the internet.
How very free spirited of you. I judge peoples ideas based on their ability to convey them to me through the written word. If they suck at writing, I don't give their argument much thought.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
I'd rather judge someone based on their ideas rather than on that comma that the end of their sentence replacing the period, or the semicolon where the colon should be, but hey to each their own. It is the internet.
How very free spirited of you. I judge peoples ideas based on their ability to convey them to me through the written word. If they suck at writing, I don't give their argument much thought.
That's pretty stupid. If you can still easily comprehend what they're trying to say (i.e. if the spelling errors aren't egregious) then there's no reason to discount what they're saying just because the grammar isn't perfect. It's just you looking for a reason to ignore something rather than address it.
The reason this shit isn't permitted in a court of law is because it would create ambiguity where ambiguity is absolutely not allowed. A message board on a forum doesn't have that problem, especially when the error is as transparent as your vs you're.
On June 11 2013 01:43 submarine wrote: I have a rather interesting idea: You can't build hellbats. After the armory is finished one hellion and one SCV can fusion into a hellbat.
-->explains more HP -->explains bio tag -->could be reversed to release SCVs for repair duty -->explains higher cargo slot
The numbers should be balanced around the increased cost. Hellbats are "self inflicted" harassment, similar to SCVs for bunker rushes or certain all ins.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
What he typed, makes no sense. That was the reason for the dismissal, not the misuse of words, 'cause actually that wasn't a spelling mistake
On June 11 2013 01:43 submarine wrote: I have a rather interesting idea: You can't build hellbats. After the armory is finished one hellion and one SCV can fusion into a hellbat.
-->explains more HP -->explains bio tag -->could be reversed to release SCVs for repair duty -->explains higher cargo slot
The numbers should be balanced around the increased cost. Hellbats are "self inflicted" harassment, similar to SCVs for bunker rushes or certain all ins.
On June 11 2013 01:43 submarine wrote: I have a rather interesting idea: You can't build hellbats. After the armory is finished one hellion and one SCV can fusion into a hellbat.
-->explains more HP -->explains bio tag -->could be reversed to release SCVs for repair duty -->explains higher cargo slot
The numbers should be balanced around the increased cost. Hellbats are "self inflicted" harassment, similar to SCVs for bunker rushes or certain all ins.
upupupup!!!!
...I'd prefer the Terratron as a unit if we're going to start going power rangers on our terran mech units.
I'd think the main reason that the Hellbat may require some tweaking is that the only response to the Hellbat, in TvT, is the Hellbat. Other Terran openings seem to have been effectively neutered. It's only when the Hellbat strategies has been countered/neutralised by other Hellbat strategies does the mu seem able to develop further.
Hell, the super-powerful Marine, is toast when the Hellbat combines with the Medivac. There is no response than the HB.
Still, it's best that Blizzard waits a little while, though. If a tweak is required, though, I'd favour lowering the HP, and maybe tweaking the damage down a little. This will allow other units to counter it more effectively and facilitate other strategies, imo.
On June 11 2013 01:43 submarine wrote: I have a rather interesting idea: You can't build hellbats. After the armory is finished one hellion and one SCV can fusion into a hellbat.
-->explains more HP -->explains bio tag -->could be reversed to release SCVs for repair duty -->explains higher cargo slot
The numbers should be balanced around the increased cost. Hellbats are "self inflicted" harassment, similar to SCVs for bunker rushes or certain all ins.
upupupup!!!!
This is nice... but... What about the supply?... Hellbat being 3 supply?... or somehow when the fuse you get more supplycap? Making hellbat cost a staggering 50% more supply will take a huge toll on the potential of the hellbat late game (mainly 200/200)... But still mess up the designed builds where you rush hense you will have to cut something or get another depot
I still maintain that one of the best changes would be to simply have Hellbats take up five spaces of the Medivac, so that the drops require either a heavier Medivac commitment or do not have two Hellbats one shotting balls of workers.
Removes some of the crazy Medivac/Hellbat synergy without harming either unit as themselves.
I think the huge problem is the mining times lost, im too busy to get mathematical proof for this, but im pretty sure just the mining time lost alone for race X vs low investment from race T is totally worth it for T.
On June 11 2013 09:13 j4vz wrote: I think the huge problem is the mining times lost, im too busy to get mathematical proof for this, but im pretty sure just the mining time lost alone for race X vs low investment from race T is totally worth it for T.
not sure how blizzard should fix this.
I think someone in this thread did the math on that actually, I'll go back and find it when I have some spare time.
On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote: why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote: why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
Oh god... Oh. oh god.. just so wrong.
There are countless of threads on this so I will leave you to your own digging. Here just so you can get started.
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
Taking the medivac speed away would cripple terran's aggressive options so that's probably not going to happen. I agree with the energy cost thing but 150 is way too high maybe something more like 75 energy. Although that means templar feedback defense might not be as viable then
I'd agree with raising the cost to 125/25 or 100/50 while keeping the hellion the same 100 mins and still giving them the transform ability to be upgraded. This still provides meching players with the cheap beefy unit they need the just have to get the transform first and make hellions.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you.
Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you.
Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
Unfortunately thats not true either, because tip top players don't decide balance either. Blizzard does.
All we can do is discuss our thoughts about why we perceive the imbalance and offer ways through which it might be helped. Naturally the better the player the deeper the insight they will tend to be able to offer, but insight is also not limited to GM KR players.
Basically what I'm saying is Blizzard is the decider in this scenario and the best we can do is to appeal our thoughts in such a way that betters understanding of the issue for Blizzard and us.
Alternatively, pissing and moaning seems about as effective as that, so I dunno, really. :-P
On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote: why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
Oh god... Oh. oh god.. just so wrong.
There are countless of threads on this so I will leave you to your own digging. Here just so you can get started.
?? What are you trying to say?
Broodwar TvP was the most balanced matchup of all non-mirrors. The link you posted verifies that with data. And bio did indeed drop out in standard TvP play because of storm, reavers. It still had its uses here and there with deep six, interceptor killing, and proxy cheese builds but didn't get much use because of powerful P spells/reaver splash
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you.
Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
Unfortunately thats not true either, because tip top players don't decide balance either. Blizzard does.
All we can do is discuss our thoughts about why we perceive the imbalance and offer ways through which it might be helped. Naturally the better the player the deeper the insight they will tend to be able to offer, but insight is also not limited to GM KR players.
Basically what I'm saying is Blizzard is the decider in this scenario and the best we can do is to appeal our thoughts in such a way that betters understanding of the issue for Blizzard and us.
Alternatively, pissing and moaning seems about as effective as that, so I dunno, really. :-P
@ayaz2810 Do you still stand 'you are' point? May I type here? You are right about one thing for sure. I don't decide SC2 balance. But this doesn't mean that I can't share my personal experiences, observations and opinion on this matter. So what are you trying to do here? Your post was pointless. Title is: "Hellbats review", not "Only tip-top players discusing Hellbat balance, DO NOT POST YOUR THOUGHTS!!"
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you.
Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
To be fair, I didn't really notice your typo. I was more referencing the people who can't be bothered to use punctuation or spelling words correctly. Those arguments can be dismissed due to spelling. It is more a level of care, rather than minor errors in typing.
On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote: why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
your proposal are bad, bronze league tier proposals. There is no influx of Terran being op in anywhere, just balance if not somewhat under zergs. An unnecessary nerf to medivacs or two will just kill the race and bring back stale meta again.
What you think "reasonable" is far from it. Only in mirror TvT hellbat seems too strong, but to say hellbat is strong in every matchup is just nonsensical as there is nothing concrete that indicates that there is this problem.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
What he typed, makes no sense. That was the reason for the dismissal, not the misuse of words, 'cause actually that wasn't a spelling mistake
He's implying that KR pros are able to execute hellbat drops with far more efficiency than people of our level. It's a valid point.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
I think spelling is important but one spelling mistake on the internet, where spelling and grammar is usually ignored by a lot, should not render an argument moot. Your and you're is also a pretty common error.
We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop. But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of.
On June 11 2013 16:27 Skiblet wrote: We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop. But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of.
Or innovation just has better macro, an easier explanation.
On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote: why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time
People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
If you made hellbats cost gas then not only would it make mech not viable in TvP, which fair enough if you claim it shouldn't be viable (which I think is bloody stupid) then that's not a big deal, but mech is bad enough and gas heavy enough as it is without needing to add a gas cost to hellbats. It'd make mech impossible to play period.
Mech shouldn't be made more expensive, if anything bio should. Bio is far too cost efficient but nobody seems to give a damn because apparently moving bio units around is more exciting for some reason.
The only thing Hellbats are super cost efficient against are zealots and lings. Which I honestly don't have an issue with as tanks completely suck against them and without hellbats it makes mech worthless. A toss shouldn't be able to just warp in 50 zealots and run over my army, it wasn't fair and it almost made me quit the game as I had no way in hell of ever dealing with zealots as a meching terran.
The best nerf they could give to Hellbats is make them require the upgrade to get rather than have them buildable early.
On June 11 2013 16:27 Skiblet wrote: We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop. But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of.
Or innovation just has better macro, an easier explanation.
Or, being even in supply is abnormal in TvP in the midgame to begin with, and already a sign that the Terran is not in as good of a situation as he would be in a normal macro game. Not that even supply would imply that Terran is in a bad spot. But in a worse spot than he would be usually.
[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 16:13 Targe wrote: [QUOTE]On June 11 2013 07:39 Shibunbundit wrote: [QUOTE]On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote: [QUOTE]On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote: [quote] I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros.... [/quote] This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you! [quote] If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"[/quote] Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix [/QUOTE]
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-[/QUOTE]
What he typed, makes no sense. That was the reason for the dismissal, not the misuse of words, 'cause actually that wasn't a spelling mistake [/QUOTE]
He's implying that KR pros are able to execute hellbat drops with far more efficiency than people of our level. It's a valid point.
Well this ain't arguable, it's a fact, but it's irrelevant to what I have typed, which makes it pointless. He claims that, if I am not a tip-top player, I can't share what I think on this matter... and you are trying to explain obvious things and I'm not sure why..
What you think to make a change that allow to transport only hellbat in helion mode? This would force transformation when dropped and when you will transform bats you are aware to pick up process require re-transformation. So Drop/load chase drop/load chase... micro will be not possible. If your workers will escape it will not be possible to take hellbats and redrop on them.
During drop at mineral line transformation will give a second to react. Time of transformation should be anyway reduced to 2 sec. Also first hellbat drop timing would be extended by researching transformation. Before that terrran may use other harras option - banshee, marine drop, hellion harras....
On June 11 2013 22:44 xokati wrote: What you think to make a change that allow to transport only hellbat in helion mode? This would force transformation when dropped and when you will transform bats you are aware to pick up process require re-transformation. So Drop/load chase drop/load chase... micro will be not possible. If your workers will escape it will not be possible to take hellbats and redrop on them.
During drop at mineral line transformation will give a second to react. Time of transformation should be anyway reduced to 2 sec. Also first hellbat drop timing would be extended by researching transformation. Before that terrran may use other harras option - banshee, marine drop, hellion harras....
No more arbitrary rules please. There are already so many stupid special rules in place for this unit.
This is a slight tangent, but what if the only thing changed about the Hellbat is there was a cap on the number of units it could simultaneously damage? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that was done in Warcraft 3 (This with like War3's Shockwave and stuff had a damage limit I believe). So for example, 1 Hellbat attack can only deal damage to 6 units at most (and the 6 are taken in order of unit priority or something).
The reason I think this could be good is because it leaves most of the matchups untouched outside of worker harass. There won't be /that/ many engagements throughout any engagements where 1 Hellbat attack is dealing damage to more than 6 units at a time unless it's for a worker harass. And this just gives a direct cap to how fast you could lose your entire mineral line. 6 is just an arbitrary number I made up.
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
You dont take in account that all players below master in most cases notice drop after few first seconds of damage. Maybe for diamonds and more thinks that removing bio tak is enough but for all below its not possible to track 3 base mineral lines all the time and single drop on any of those lines may usually cost platinium player 16-21 probes. In most cases this mean lost game. Expecial for toss who need plenty of time to rebuild so many probes(another case is cost). To compare zerg and toss(even oracle) are not so strong in low lagues. And even oracle needs 10s+ to clean line and may be easy shut down by ONE static defense. And 3 photon cannons are not shuting down hellbat harras in low lagues while medi fly with burnsers, drop hellbats in line and player target probes, 2-3 shots kills half of probes, anoter few shots clean almost another half. Hellbats have enough hp to survive those 8-10 seconds, healing makes not difference in this scenatio. Expecial when first few shots tank medivac.
So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes.
btw. its interesting that hellbat harass is so tough and deadly. Oracle is from glass, phoenixes are fregile and limited by energy. Hellbats hit really hard, have alot of HP and they are cheap. DT dies fast when detected.
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand?
We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen
You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK?
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand?
We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen
You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK?
So stop your whine, and get some experience.
Holy fuck, calm down.
If you name Stalkers and Marines, Vikings and Void Rays (which arent static defenses), why not also Hydras, Corrupters and Mutalisks?
On June 12 2013 16:09 xokati wrote: So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes.
While I fully agree it is important to have balance at all levels of play (well as far as is reasonably possible, so at least some basic game knowledge), you really don't need 150apm. My apm is half of that (masters), and barely ever had mineral lines decimated by hellbats. Most hellbat drops that went in unnoticed were during a fight. Now the importance of static defenses: Sure I had then hellbat in my mineral lines. Guess what, still barely lost SCVs, simply because I didn't notice it because of the large fight happening, but my opponent also didn't have the ability to micro his main army and micro his hellbats. And unmicrod hellbats don't deal damage when there is static defense.
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand?
We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen
You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK?
On June 12 2013 16:09 xokati wrote: So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes.
While I fully agree it is important to have balance at all levels of play (well as far as is reasonably possible, so at least some basic game knowledge), you really don't need 150apm. My apm is half of that (masters), and barely ever had mineral lines decimated by hellbats. Most hellbat drops that went in unnoticed were during a fight. Now the importance of static defenses: Sure I had then hellbat in my mineral lines. Guess what, still barely lost SCVs, simply because I didn't notice it because of the large fight happening, but my opponent also didn't have the ability to micro his main army and micro his hellbats. And unmicrod hellbats don't deal damage when there is static defense.
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning: 1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair). 2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand?
We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen
You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK?
So stop your whine, and get some experience.
And zerg has early warning system: overlords.
HOLY SHIT, i didnt think of that!!!! Any point in this statement?
A quick thought of pure spectator of this great game:
Why not make the Hellbat have 90 HP like the Hellion and require a Combat Shield like research at the armory for the full 135 HP (making it easier to clear drops in the early game)? Also nerf the dmg and reintroduce blue flame.
On June 12 2013 19:26 xpldngmn wrote: A quick thought of pure spectator of this great game:
Why not make the Hellbat have 90 HP like the Hellion and require a Combat Shield like research at the armory for the full 135 HP (making it easier to clear drops in the early game)? Also nerf the dmg and reintroduce blue flame.
One nerf at a time...
Suppose we decided marines are overpowered instead and we wish to nerf them. So by your logic we should remove both stim and combat shield from marines. As if removing one upgrade wouldn't hurt marines bad enough.
On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote: this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming.
On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote: this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming.
EDIT: This was from the Innovation FPVOD thread
great example! it's showing 3 medivacs with hellbats killing 0 workers =)
On June 12 2013 19:34 Partha wrote: I quite liked this explanation
On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote: this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming.
EDIT: This was from the Innovation FPVOD thread
great example! it's showing 3 medivacs with hellbats killing 0 workers =)
Well that's too many! Every time you defend a hellbat drop you should get something like a extra 5-worker drop to compensate for the lost mining time, sacrificed APM etc.
This should work just like mules, your new workers parachute down from the orbit but they don't have a timer.
Rolling in some of the Hellbat damage into the blue flame upgrade might be a good solution but I think the cost of blue flame upgrade should then be lowered. The reason is that Mech is already very gas starved so being forced to sacrifice 150 more gas will really weaken mech.
The important part is delaying the timing for 2-shotting workers with hellbat drops, but this should be archived without weakening mech in early mid game.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NhrYUKY.png)
).
Which is also clever in that if it's on the factory tech lab, you also limit production of the hellion/hellbat itself, because you can't double-build from that factory.
