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On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix  Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you.
Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
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On June 11 2013 09:44 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you. Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
Unfortunately thats not true either, because tip top players don't decide balance either. Blizzard does.
All we can do is discuss our thoughts about why we perceive the imbalance and offer ways through which it might be helped. Naturally the better the player the deeper the insight they will tend to be able to offer, but insight is also not limited to GM KR players.
Basically what I'm saying is Blizzard is the decider in this scenario and the best we can do is to appeal our thoughts in such a way that betters understanding of the issue for Blizzard and us.
Alternatively, pissing and moaning seems about as effective as that, so I dunno, really. :-P
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On June 11 2013 09:36 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 09:27 GhostOwl wrote:On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote:
why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time Oh god... Oh. oh god.. just so wrong. There are countless of threads on this so I will leave you to your own digging. Here just so you can get started.
?? What are you trying to say?
Broodwar TvP was the most balanced matchup of all non-mirrors. The link you posted verifies that with data. And bio did indeed drop out in standard TvP play because of storm, reavers. It still had its uses here and there with deep six, interceptor killing, and proxy cheese builds but didn't get much use because of powerful P spells/reaver splash
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On June 11 2013 09:54 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 09:44 ayaz2810 wrote:On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you. Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced. Unfortunately thats not true either, because tip top players don't decide balance either. Blizzard does. All we can do is discuss our thoughts about why we perceive the imbalance and offer ways through which it might be helped. Naturally the better the player the deeper the insight they will tend to be able to offer, but insight is also not limited to GM KR players. Basically what I'm saying is Blizzard is the decider in this scenario and the best we can do is to appeal our thoughts in such a way that betters understanding of the issue for Blizzard and us. Alternatively, pissing and moaning seems about as effective as that, so I dunno, really. :-P
@ayaz2810 Do you still stand 'you are' point? May I type here? You are right about one thing for sure. I don't decide SC2 balance. But this doesn't mean that I can't share my personal experiences, observations and opinion on this matter. So what are you trying to do here?
Your post was pointless. Title is: "Hellbats review", not "Only tip-top players discusing Hellbat balance, DO NOT POST YOUR THOUGHTS!!"
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Just saw that Blizzard is looking into it!
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On June 11 2013 09:44 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
You're right. I should be totally disregarded because I hastily typed a response while at work and didn't pay attention. Thanks for pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, and wasn't just in a hurry. I never would have known without you. Anyway, my point stands. If you're not playing at the tip top, you don't get to decide what is balanced.
To be fair, I didn't really notice your typo. I was more referencing the people who can't be bothered to use punctuation or spelling words correctly. Those arguments can be dismissed due to spelling. It is more a level of care, rather than minor errors in typing.
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On June 11 2013 09:27 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote:
why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
your proposal are bad, bronze league tier proposals. There is no influx of Terran being op in anywhere, just balance if not somewhat under zergs. An unnecessary nerf to medivacs or two will just kill the race and bring back stale meta again.
What you think "reasonable" is far from it. Only in mirror TvT hellbat seems too strong, but to say hellbat is strong in every matchup is just nonsensical as there is nothing concrete that indicates that there is this problem.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 11 2013 07:39 Shibunbundit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- What he typed, makes no sense. That was the reason for the dismissal, not the misuse of words, 'cause actually that wasn't a spelling mistake
He's implying that KR pros are able to execute hellbat drops with far more efficiency than people of our level.
It's a valid point.
On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
I think spelling is important but one spelling mistake on the internet, where spelling and grammar is usually ignored by a lot, should not render an argument moot. Your and you're is also a pretty common error.
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We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation
Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop.
But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of.
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On June 11 2013 16:27 Skiblet wrote:
We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation
Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop.
But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of.
Or innovation just has better macro, an easier explanation.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On June 11 2013 09:27 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:52 willstertben wrote:
why do terrans have this notion that all styles of play that they fancy to do should be viable in all matchups?
I agree. Sometimes mech shouldnt be viable in every matchup. Look at broodwar TvP, bio wasn't viable unless for early all-in's, but it turned out to be the most balanced matchup of all time People are complaining hellbats are too efficient for what they cost. Solution, take away medivac speed and raise cost of hellbats. 125 mineral/25 gas or 100 mineral/50 gas sounds very reasonable. Medivac speed is just unnecessary benefit T harassment has. Speed should either be taken away or cost 150 medivac energy to use so they cant be spammed
If you made hellbats cost gas then not only would it make mech not viable in TvP, which fair enough if you claim it shouldn't be viable (which I think is bloody stupid) then that's not a big deal, but mech is bad enough and gas heavy enough as it is without needing to add a gas cost to hellbats. It'd make mech impossible to play period.
Mech shouldn't be made more expensive, if anything bio should. Bio is far too cost efficient but nobody seems to give a damn because apparently moving bio units around is more exciting for some reason.
The only thing Hellbats are super cost efficient against are zealots and lings. Which I honestly don't have an issue with as tanks completely suck against them and without hellbats it makes mech worthless. A toss shouldn't be able to just warp in 50 zealots and run over my army, it wasn't fair and it almost made me quit the game as I had no way in hell of ever dealing with zealots as a meching terran.
The best nerf they could give to Hellbats is make them require the upgrade to get rather than have them buildable early.
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On June 11 2013 16:57 Aggnog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:27 Skiblet wrote:
We could see the problem with hellbat drops in the WCS finals. SoS vs Innovation
Innovation goes for hellbat drops - gets completely and utterly 100% shut down drop after drop.
But then hes ahead in supply and the third base timing without being in any risk whatsoever to a counter attack? This is because even though the drops were shut down, in the end they actually costed close to NOTHING. Obviously there are other reasons for SoS's loss but this is just an example of how ridiculously cheap hellbats are for what they are capable of. Or innovation just has better macro, an easier explanation.
Or, being even in supply is abnormal in TvP in the midgame to begin with, and already a sign that the Terran is not in as good of a situation as he would be in a normal macro game.
Not that even supply would imply that Terran is in a bad spot. But in a worse spot than he would be usually.
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[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 16:13 Targe wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 07:39 Shibunbundit wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros.... [/quote]
This just ain't serious...
"you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
[quote]
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"[/quote]
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix [/QUOTE]
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-[/QUOTE]
What he typed, makes no sense. That was the reason for the dismissal, not the misuse of words, 'cause actually that wasn't a spelling mistake [/QUOTE]
He's implying that KR pros are able to execute hellbat drops with far more efficiency than people of our level.
It's a valid point.
Well this ain't arguable, it's a fact, but it's irrelevant to what I have typed, which makes it pointless. He claims that, if I am not a tip-top player, I can't share what I think on this matter... and you are trying to explain obvious things and I'm not sure why..
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What you think to make a change that allow to transport only hellbat in helion mode? This would force transformation when dropped and when you will transform bats you are aware to pick up process require re-transformation. So Drop/load chase drop/load chase... micro will be not possible. If your workers will escape it will not be possible to take hellbats and redrop on them.
During drop at mineral line transformation will give a second to react. Time of transformation should be anyway reduced to 2 sec. Also first hellbat drop timing would be extended by researching transformation. Before that terrran may use other harras option - banshee, marine drop, hellion harras....
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On June 11 2013 22:44 xokati wrote:
What you think to make a change that allow to transport only hellbat in helion mode? This would force transformation when dropped and when you will transform bats you are aware to pick up process require re-transformation. So Drop/load chase drop/load chase... micro will be not possible. If your workers will escape it will not be possible to take hellbats and redrop on them.
During drop at mineral line transformation will give a second to react. Time of transformation should be anyway reduced to 2 sec. Also first hellbat drop timing would be extended by researching transformation. Before that terrran may use other harras option - banshee, marine drop, hellion harras....
No more arbitrary rules please. There are already so many stupid special rules in place for this unit.
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This is a slight tangent, but what if the only thing changed about the Hellbat is there was a cap on the number of units it could simultaneously damage? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that was done in Warcraft 3 (This with like War3's Shockwave and stuff had a damage limit I believe). So for example, 1 Hellbat attack can only deal damage to 6 units at most (and the 6 are taken in order of unit priority or something).
The reason I think this could be good is because it leaves most of the matchups untouched outside of worker harass. There won't be /that/ many engagements throughout any engagements where 1 Hellbat attack is dealing damage to more than 6 units at a time unless it's for a worker harass. And this just gives a direct cap to how fast you could lose your entire mineral line. 6 is just an arbitrary number I made up.
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Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
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On June 12 2013 14:02 Crugio wrote:
Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings!
Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
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You dont take in account that all players below master in most cases notice drop after few first seconds of damage. Maybe for diamonds and more thinks that removing bio tak is enough but for all below its not possible to track 3 base mineral lines all the time and single drop on any of those lines may usually cost platinium player 16-21 probes. In most cases this mean lost game. Expecial for toss who need plenty of time to rebuild so many probes(another case is cost).
To compare zerg and toss(even oracle) are not so strong in low lagues. And even oracle needs 10s+ to clean line and may be easy shut down by ONE static defense. And 3 photon cannons are not shuting down hellbat harras in low lagues while medi fly with burnsers, drop hellbats in line and player target probes, 2-3 shots kills half of probes, anoter few shots clean almost another half. Hellbats have enough hp to survive those 8-10 seconds, healing makes not difference in this scenatio. Expecial when first few shots tank medivac.
So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes.
btw. its interesting that hellbat harass is so tough and deadly.
Oracle is from glass, phoenixes are fregile and limited by energy. Hellbats hit really hard, have alot of HP and they are cheap. DT dies fast when detected.
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On June 12 2013 14:16 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:02 Crugio wrote:
Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings! Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so...
Its not about the static defence for the zerg!
You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why?
BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand?
We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up
We only have Queen
You understand a got damn thing iam saying?
No, queens are not enough OK??
If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK?
So stop your whine, and get some experience.
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EPT
