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On June 12 2013 17:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:16 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 12 2013 14:02 Crugio wrote:
Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings! Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so... Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand? We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK? So stop your whine, and get some experience.
Holy fuck, calm down.
If you name Stalkers and Marines, Vikings and Void Rays (which arent static defenses), why not also Hydras, Corrupters and Mutalisks?
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Because the zerg units can't enter the field as fast as the terran/protoss ones.
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scout it/anticipate current meta
Put units in mineral lines
micro workers
l2p issue
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On June 12 2013 16:09 xokati wrote:
So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes.
While I fully agree it is important to have balance at all levels of play (well as far as is reasonably possible, so at least some basic game knowledge), you really don't need 150apm. My apm is half of that (masters), and barely ever had mineral lines decimated by hellbats. Most hellbat drops that went in unnoticed were during a fight. Now the importance of static defenses: Sure I had then hellbat in my mineral lines. Guess what, still barely lost SCVs, simply because I didn't notice it because of the large fight happening, but my opponent also didn't have the ability to micro his main army and micro his hellbats. And unmicrod hellbats don't deal damage when there is static defense.
On June 12 2013 17:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:16 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 12 2013 14:02 Crugio wrote:
Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings! Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so... Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand? We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK? So stop your whine, and get some experience.
And zerg has early warning system: overlords.
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@Sissors
Actually i must agree with You. When bats are not micro they blindly try to get to static defense. In rest cases we need to learn ot react.
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On June 12 2013 19:03 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 16:09 xokati wrote:
So when blizz will think about balance I hope they will think not only about diamonds+ players that have great multitasking, 150apm and look every 1 sec to minimap to save workers. Those 40 apm golden player wants play too. Give this group similiar easy solution like way to shut down oracle harras. Expecial that hellbat harras needs 4-5 clicks to execute. No macro intense harass like marine drops, oracles or phoenixes. While I fully agree it is important to have balance at all levels of play (well as far as is reasonably possible, so at least some basic game knowledge), you really don't need 150apm. My apm is half of that (masters), and barely ever had mineral lines decimated by hellbats. Most hellbat drops that went in unnoticed were during a fight. Now the importance of static defenses: Sure I had then hellbat in my mineral lines. Guess what, still barely lost SCVs, simply because I didn't notice it because of the large fight happening, but my opponent also didn't have the ability to micro his main army and micro his hellbats. And unmicrod hellbats don't deal damage when there is static defense. Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 17:22 Foxxan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:16 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 12 2013 14:02 Crugio wrote:
Zerg PoV
Agree that Hellbat definitely needs a Review, particularly in Hellbat drop into the mineral line scenario.
Reasoning:
1) Static defence is costly and ineffective. Putting 1 spore and 2 spines at each hatch? 75+2x100 (+150 for drones [more with lost mining]) = 425 minerals x # of Hatch + good chance of losing drones anyway vs 200 minerals (the medivac will get away due to Speed boost with a small cost to SVC repair).
2) Just the threat of Hellbat drops puts Terran ahead. 425 minerals per hatch wasted that early in the game is hard to come back from.
Would love to see replays and VoD of well defended hellbat drops from zerg perspective. I.e. that doesn't put zerg behind.
How dare zerg have to build any static defense against harass! I mean, really! Protoss cannons and templar doesn't have to, and neither does Terran turrets, mines, bunkers, sensor towers, and floating buildings! Rushing hellbat drops is easily scouted, neuters defense if it's rushed with an expand, and can be defended easily by pulling workers away and building a unit that isn't zerglings to defend. Not only that, but zerg even gets another advantage by having overlords that they can use to see drops coming easily... Oh, and mutas can shut down drops really really really hard, so... Its not about the static defence for the zerg! You make that static defence, BUT STILL TERRAN DROPS THOSE FREAKING HELLBATS! Why? BECAUSE ITS STILL EFFECTIVE FOR HIM , you understand? We do not have Stalkers or marines or vikings or voidrays , phoenix to shoot up We only have Queen You understand a got damn thing iam saying? No, queens are not enough OK?? If we had like 6queens at one spot to nuke that medivac, SURE but in reality No. BECAUSE we have expansion. AND TERRAN makes more THAN 1DROPSHIP! OK? So stop your whine, and get some experience. And zerg has early warning system: overlords.
HOLY SHIT, i didnt think of that!!!!
Any point in this statement?
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A quick thought of pure spectator of this great game:
Why not make the Hellbat have 90 HP like the Hellion and require a Combat Shield like research at the armory for the full 135 HP (making it easier to clear drops in the early game)? Also nerf the dmg and reintroduce blue flame.
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On June 12 2013 19:26 xpldngmn wrote:
A quick thought of pure spectator of this great game:
Why not make the Hellbat have 90 HP like the Hellion and require a Combat Shield like research at the armory for the full 135 HP (making it easier to clear drops in the early game)? Also nerf the dmg and reintroduce blue flame.
One nerf at a time...
Suppose we decided marines are overpowered instead and we wish to nerf them. So by your logic we should remove both stim and combat shield from marines. As if removing one upgrade wouldn't hurt marines bad enough.
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I quite liked this explanation
On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote:
this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming.
EDIT: This was from the Innovation FPVOD thread
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On June 12 2013 19:34 Partha wrote:I quite liked this explanation Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote:
this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming. EDIT: This was from the Innovation FPVOD thread
great example! it's showing 3 medivacs with hellbats killing 0 workers =)
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On June 12 2013 19:38 Hemling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 19:34 Partha wrote:I quite liked this explanation On June 11 2013 23:38 Chrono000 wrote:
this is interesting because you get to see how hellbat drops work.
comparing it to any other drop it looks a little lame. he is pretty much charging in with the medvac+bats with the intent to do damage regardless of the loss.
you hardly see that kind of dropping intent with other units because it costs wayy fucking more to do it.
to me it seems clear not just from this video but from playing many games that terrans know or least subconsciously know its not a large cost to sacrifice the vac and the bat because the rewards is just so much higher than any other drop harass. (also easier)
ive read both current hellbat threads recently and was very happy to hear a possible change coming. EDIT: This was from the Innovation FPVOD thread great example! it's showing 3 medivacs with hellbats killing 0 workers =)
Well that's too many! Every time you defend a hellbat drop you should get something like a extra 5-worker drop to compensate for the lost mining time, sacrificed APM etc.
This should work just like mules, your new workers parachute down from the orbit but they don't have a timer.
Also, they should cost 0 supply.
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Rolling in some of the Hellbat damage into the blue flame upgrade might be a good solution but I think the cost of blue flame upgrade should then be lowered. The reason is that Mech is already very gas starved so being forced to sacrifice 150 more gas will really weaken mech.
The important part is delaying the timing for 2-shotting workers with hellbat drops, but this should be archived without weakening mech in early mid game.
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On June 12 2013 18:48 Hemling wrote:
scout it/anticipate current meta
Put units in mineral lines
micro workers
l2p issue
when you lose 100 minerals for 5 seconds of workers pull . and he lose nothing cuz of speed boost . tell me how is that ok ?
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On June 13 2013 00:23 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 18:48 Hemling wrote:
scout it/anticipate current meta
Put units in mineral lines
micro workers
l2p issue when you lose 100 minerals for 5 seconds of workers pull . and he lose nothing cuz of speed boost . tell me how is that ok ?
that's kinda how terran drops work...you'd have to pull the workers if they were dropping bio, and they would also get out for free.
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Just watched Meta and the idea of having the blue flame upgrade on Armory is GREAT. Doesn't punish as much the hellbat, that already require Armory.
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EPT
