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On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol.
The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself.
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On June 11 2013 02:04 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%. You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol. The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself.
The main build involving hellbats is reactor helion expand with 4 helions. Then, tech starport and armoury for double hellbat drops. This leaves you with 4 helions to keep the zerg on his side of the map. It's a flimsy build where A LOT can go wrong because you have minimal defense and you're teching hard. After losing more than I won, I just switched to regular helion harass and am doing far better. All this to say, the hellbat is not easy to use. It's micro intensive, the timing to do damage is small, and it leaves you weak at home.
On June 11 2013 02:04 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base. Maybe some Terran players don't like a hellbat-dominated metagame? Just because you can fight it off doesn't mean it makes the game more fun in its current state.
I wouldn't call it hellbat dominated. Demuslim only started playing mech last week. Before that he played bio 95% of the time. Bio/tank is still popular. Personally, I think mech is better, but time will tell. We need more time.
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United States2763 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote:
Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops.
And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf.
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros.... 
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How to counter hellbat drops - go gas fe 1/1/2 with 2 early starports, one reactored and one tech lab, make Vikings/banshee/raven ie Skyterran. Make widow mines for defence. Use Viking banshee to kill hellbat drops, push at 10min with 3-4 banshees + raven and Vikings. Bring along widow mines and hellions to zone enemy Vikings, PDD with absorb turrets and Viking shots. Auto turret or Viking to absorb widow mines. Seeker on Thor (unlikely to have early Thor with hellbat build) Transition into Skyterran with hellion mines for support, and mass raven.
New TvT meta right here, you heard it here first.
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On June 11 2013 02:17 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:01 Shibunbundit wrote:
Well, I am gold/platinum terran player and I haven't lost a game to hellbat drops.
And yes, I won some games with this strat.I don't think whinning about hellbat drops OP is an adequate thing to do.You just have to play more (get better).Even progamers do NOT know/play the game at its potential.In the begining of HotS I was thinking that Hellbats are too slow to be used effectively along with my bio play, so I thought terrans should pick up hellbats into medivacs and use their burners (so hellbats becomes really fast) and you can deploy them in the right position in the begininig of an engagement. So the more micro, the more effectivness you get.And in recent weeks we/I saw some top tier terrans exploit this.I personally think that the game is quite interesting this way and there's no need of changes neither buff, nor nerf. I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
What does that have to do with anything? Are you playing against those KR pros?
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On June 11 2013 02:15 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 02:04 Salteador Neo wrote:On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%. You are the disappointing % terran who want to keep the unit to feel good abusing it on ladder lol. The smart noble guys want to have TvT back, the best mirror matchup since broodwar. Even if that means nerfing one of their units. And I would like to watch the pros play it myself. The main build involving hellbats is reactor helion expand with 4 helions. Then, tech starport and armoury for double hellbat drops. This leaves you with 4 helions to keep the zerg on his side of the map. It's a flimsy build where A LOT can go wrong because you have minimal defense and you're teching hard. After losing more than I won, I just switched to regular helion harass and am doing far better. All this to say, the hellbat is not easy to use. It's micro intensive, the timing to do damage is small, and it leaves you weak at home.
Read again, he is talking TvT, not TvZ.
And lol @reactored hellion expand in TvZ. Noone - apart from Gumiho who got roflstomped with this build by zergs - plays that build. It has been bad since early 2012 and HotS did not change any of its nonviability.
The main hellbat build in TvZ is CC first into the regular reactored factory with 6 hellions, but instead of the 3rd CC, you take another gas and tech starport+armory and build 2hellbats and a medivac after the 6hellions and then either allin after several drops of two base with a fast stim, or start a 3rd CC and double ebays asap (or some factories if you prefer mech).
Back to TvT now...
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:21 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:42 Targe wrote:On June 10 2013 23:06 Sated wrote:On June 10 2013 22:30 Targe wrote:On June 10 2013 22:06 Sated wrote:On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote:
conclusion
i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it 27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it. "Everyone likes it". >_> EDIT: On June 10 2013 22:06 Sissors wrote:On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote:On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote:
Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game.
If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly. Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful". On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote:
They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used. Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks. Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution. Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please. In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP. This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers. Morrow is obviously referring to top level players. I didn't realise that the OED changed the meaning of "everyone". Sorry. As a pro player he is obviously going be talking about the peers he plays with/against, other pro players. Not that other levels of player won't improve at stopping them. I can call a cat a dog but it won't bark. Don't say "everyone" if you don't mean "everyone", words mean things.
No shit words mean things, but what if he was referring to 'everyone' in the pro scene huh?
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I feel as if Blizzard is just coming up with random solutions that have no bearing in reality. I pointed the Hellbat out back in Beta:
*Why the fuck does the Hellion become a Biological unit with Increased HP?*
The answer is "We wanted to bring firebats back but couldn't introduce them into Rax for [X reason here] because we found that [Y build here] was too imba."
I get what they were trying to do but it literally makes no sense. They need to bring Hellbats unto the same stats as Hellions.
ALSO
Please, please stop bringing up the pros, people...
None of us are Pro, none of us will ever be Pro, and the fact that everyone brings up "Pro Balance" causes Blizzard to remove the fun from the game for the other 99.8% of us which is fucking ludicrous.
If Pro balance is such a goddamn issue then go back to making UMS maps for the WCS/ProLeague matchups with tweaked unit stats if that's that big a fucking deal.
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The problem is that hellbat drops are so powerful in a match, say TvP, that the T can just continually suicide medivacs and hellbats while safely taking a 3rd and getting a great economy. Sure P can sort of defend with minor probe losses, but he'll never get ahead economically and never be able to harass or attack himself. Once T is ahead economically by being a whole base ahead despite throwing away units, then T can push and win or get further ahead. This is demonstrated clearly in game 1 of the WCS season 1 finals between sOs and Innovation. And this is the problem.
On many maps there is literally no way to defend "just enough" against hellbats. They are that powerful that you literally can do nothing else but keep up your normal macro, watch the skies, and pull workers when it is time. That is hardly a fun way to play the game... to defend and get further and further behind till you die.
I guess until it becomes such a huge problem, nothing will be done. Luckily I hear bronze through GM through Korean pros are starting to use them all the time. Patching time is coming sooner rather than later I expect.
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In my opinion, the matchup is still evolving. Blizzard should be paying attention, but I would be surprised if there was a balance patch in the next month.
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On June 10 2013 02:29 Lock0n wrote:
Hellbat drops are actually very hard to do, it actually requires a sick amount of multitasking and micro and macro to make sure you get the right balance of offense and defence, and separates the good players from the poor. I think hellbat drops are great fun to watch, and there's always an excitement when the drops hit to see how much damage they can do. If anything, it's added more versatility to the matchup, and there is still a large variety in the matchup.
More attacking and drops is good, I agree. But if they are overwhelming, the game starts to become broken. By default the Starcraft community as a vocal whole just whines about anything that is hard to defend. That is wrong and is why WoL turned into trash by the end. I am pro action and pro aggression. But Terran aggression is just insane with things like the boosted medivac, and hellbats tip the scales a little in all matches. Time to do something about it I think.
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TvT used to be the best matchup 
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On June 11 2013 01:59 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'm disapointed by all my Terran brothers voting against the hellbat. It's one of the coolest units in HOTS. If you don't want to adjust your play style, play WOL. So poll should be on 33%.
Protoss players. You guys get a mothership core which can activate phototon overcharge while being 10 range away from the nexus. Early storm builds are great vs medi drops and everyone should be doing them because it's no longer risky to tech storm on 2 base. Almost all protoss get at least 1 forge. Leave a cannon in the mineral line and you shut them down even harder. The options are endless, and once you stop a couple drops in their tracks, you just take a third and chrono out 3-3 before they get 2-2 because they invested in hellbat drops... So poll should read 66%.
Zerg players have it the worse. They have to scout it coming and prepare queen/roach/spore defense. But if you scout it and prepare, you will leave the terran in a bad spot. The idea that hellbat drops "cost nothing" is just ridiculous. The opportunity cost of going hellbats is a much later third and double e-bay. If you do the queen/spore/roach defense, you can keep full 3 base saturation going, while the terran is still on 2 base.
I personally find them boring. Heck, I called Hellions boring too if you go back far enough but come on man. Blue flame hellions and Hellbats almost serve the same purpose but with Hellbats you can heal them via medivacs. Nothing worse than having overlap.
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I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious...
"you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun
Thank You, Plansix 
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you! Show nested quote +
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix
Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
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On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.-
Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
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On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules).
Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
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On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.-
No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
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On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure."
I'd rather judge someone based on their ideas rather than on that comma that the end of their sentence replacing the period, or the semicolon where the colon should be, but hey to each their own. It is the internet.
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On June 11 2013 06:16 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 Zambrah wrote:On June 11 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 11 2013 05:59 Targe wrote:On June 11 2013 05:28 Shibunbundit wrote:
I'm sure you're gold/plat opponents execute hellbat drops with the exact same stellar timing and control of KR pros....
This just ain't serious... "you're" isntead of "your"? Even this is too much reply for you!
If you're a beginner, you don't have much room to say "I can deal with it just fine. The pros need to get better"
Even if I was just a fan who doesn't play, I still have world-much room to express my opinion on subjects and I haven't typed that the pros should get better. Btw look at the racial distribution in WCS Korea S2.. I somehow can not see a terran stacked tournaments and haven't seen TvT, TvT semifinals also. Hellbats are not IMBA, neither Hellbatdrops! have fun Thank You, Plansix Don't dismiss someone's argument because of spelling -.- Why not? We throw out peoples resumes all the time because they miss-spell stuff? I once had a motion denied in court because we used the wrong margins, font and paper-stock(fuck US appeals court and their weird format rules). Because the internet is a court of law right? -.- No, but is a place where people debate things. If someone makes a argument that is poorly spelled and formatted, they shouldn't expect to get a pass just because "Yo bro, its the internet. We can't be held back by the little things like spelling and sentence structure." I'd rather judge someone based on their ideas rather than on that comma that the end of their sentence replacing the period, or the semicolon where the colon should be, but hey to each their own. It is the internet.
How very free spirited of you. I judge peoples ideas based on their ability to convey them to me through the written word. If they suck at writing, I don't give their argument much thought.
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EPT
