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On May 29 2013 15:12 hli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:04 Ruined Gamer wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed Medivac with boosters - 4.25 (same as hellion) Medivac with no boosters - 2.5 (same as current warp prism) Warp prism - 2.5 Warp prism w/ upgrade 3.375 (same as stimmed marines) The medivac is either slower or faster and the new warp prism will be faster than no booster medivac but slower than booster-vacs last I checked, stim marines are faster than vikings, and stim marines are the same speed as stim marines. How do you propose terran chase these down? In the long run, medivacs even with boost can be caught when they run out (if they boost at a bad time). Speed WP can never be caught by T unless they have turret ring, or if P mismicros, thus making it "basically medivac boost speed", the epitomy of speed these days.
Acceleration and the transport / phasing mode switch would like to have a word with you.
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On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong.
When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. You cannot rely ONLY on HT storms as anti air man - lack of mobility + easily dodgable + if you skip stalkers theres really nothing from stopping the vikings to troll bait you storming your own army while killing everything in the air.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR.
But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army.
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Im pretty excited about this buff. Altho currently Protoss are tearing it up completely in Proleague so I dont know if its fair to say Protoss are not doing well in Korea... Do they just look at GSL ro8 and call that Korea?? Or is there some massive problem on the ladder for Korean Protoss?
Still think this is a positive change for the game either way. Blizzard is trying hard to buff Bisu!
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Austria24417 Posts
Anyway back to warp prism buffs, I do think it's worth testing and protoss should have something that really rewards skill like that. Protoss should never catch medivacs either unless the terran screws up so it's only fair to give protoss something similar. Can't be that hard to make a viking or two if you really feel like the warp prism is causing too much trouble.
The problem I can see are PvZ all ins though. Each one of those is gonna have a prism now.
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I think they should move the research to c core. That will do the job I think.
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Here comes the resurgence of 4 gate warp prism all in lol
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I think moving immortal to warpgate may work. Obviously, it will have a long warp in time and requirement of robo. This sounds the easiest solution without completely changing how game works.
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On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army.
You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part.
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On May 29 2013 15:26 foxmulder_ms wrote:
I think moving immortal to warpgate may work. Obviously, it will have a long warp in time and requirement of robo. This sounds the easiest solution without completely changing how game works.
Umm... def... NO
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part.
Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss.
And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary.
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On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part.
I do agree that if stalker needs any buff in the late game, making a reseach that requires robo bay or other higher tech will do.
(only if everyone think current stalker is s@#$@)
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On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part.
Granted it was WoL, but the longest GSL game (I think that record still stands, it might not), was a TvP with the Terran smashing the Protoss in the late-game. Smash. Not just beat. There was nothing the Protoss late-game army could do.
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On May 29 2013 14:34 Falling wrote:
Warp Gate isn't it entirely though. Imagine blink on dragoons. Yeah. Between sniping units and negating high ground advantage with vision, blink is too powerful to straight buff stalkers.
Warpgate is not it at all, and in itself is a very cool ability for Protoss. Protoss gateway units are fine. The only problem is the Stalker as it is countered hard by the Marauder, scales awfully (+1/0), and is balanced around Blink (an ability that marks it as a guerilla raider unit but then means that it can't really be used, in that role, as part of a Protoss army of Zealots/Sentries).
There were some interesting suggestions earlier in the thread regarding increasing range and increasing the value of attack upgrades. My personal wish, for a long time, has been an increase in the base damage and a small health buff to the Stalker in return for a nerf to Blink (a longer cooldown - I believe Idra may have suggested something similar in a SOTG a long time back, too). If this unbalances early game PvT (I am not sure why as the Marauder will still shit on the Stalker, but the Stalker is more powerful against early Marines as the overall Marine count is low) then I think buffing the upgrades (say +2/+1) and a small health buff may be the way to go. I think a range upgrade would be OP though and adversely affect too many unit relationships.
A stronger Stalker would mean that Protoss are not so reliant on a melee unit for successful small engagements.
Anyway, overall I think the WP change a good one. Besides the options it opens up in the mid-game (I'd love to see Immortal drops and Colossus drops) it also saves on the commitment for a bay (if not going Colo) and on gas/minerals.
Long live Auir! 
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I do like the idea of buffing protoss transportation but it would have been better if it was done in some other way than speed. Something like cargo space buff, new kinds of loading/unloading mechanism, etc
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On May 29 2013 15:34 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Granted it was WoL, but the longest GSL game (I think that record still stands, it might not), was a TvP with the Terran smashing the Protoss in the late-game. Smash. Not just beat. There was nothing the Protoss late-game army could do.
Is that the game in which byun could have beaten hero but dragged it out by like 40 minutes?
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:34 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Granted it was WoL, but the longest GSL game (I think that record still stands, it might not), was a TvP with the Terran smashing the Protoss in the late-game. Smash. Not just beat. There was nothing the Protoss late-game army could do.
This is still the case. Ghost/viking is still pretty much unbeatable. Granted, that scenario is really really rare and HerO had the right idea to transition into carriers but made the switch too late and kept getting his 6th base nuked on Daybreak (from Byun's main, which is terrible map design). So there might be something to do there. Still, a carrier transition is almost impossible unless terran sits back and lets you slowly throw away parts of your army and replace them with carriers.
One would think stalkers are good against mass viking/ghost, right? Well no actually, they suck against it.
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On May 29 2013 15:41 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:34 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Granted it was WoL, but the longest GSL game (I think that record still stands, it might not), was a TvP with the Terran smashing the Protoss in the late-game. Smash. Not just beat. There was nothing the Protoss late-game army could do. Is that the game in which byun could have beaten hero but dragged it out by like 40 minutes?
It was the game where Hero just could not break a 200/200 supply ghost viking army.
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On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary.
Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control.
Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army
Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition.
Buffing stalkers would seriously mean blizzard removing another unit because it would basically be like buffing marines.
If you continue to argue that stalkers fill no role late game Im gonna have to start arguing that marines actually have almost no role late game either due to them dying too damn fast to everything and instantly becoming empty supply, which is true to some extent but thats not gonna stop terrans from making marines late game is it?
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