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On May 29 2013 13:20 AstroPegnuin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea. Saying Protoss mechanics are easy is an example of peoples stupid ignorance to the race, Honestly I'm just going to stop responding because I'm guessing 95% of people on this forum aren't even low masters and I really doubt I will ever convince anyone otherwise despite the results of Protoss over the last 3 years being by large and far inferior to both Terran and Zerg.
i have played protoss as my main race in the past and have over 2k games played as protoss before i switched race. i know what i'm talking about.
protoss mechanics are the easiest by far and if you really want to argue against that then you're just in denial.
im high master btw, and was high master with protoss as well.
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On May 29 2013 13:20 AstroPegnuin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea. Saying Protoss mechanics are easy is an example of peoples stupid ignorance to the race, Honestly I'm just going to stop responding because I'm guessing 95% of people on this forum aren't even low masters and I really doubt I will ever convince anyone otherwise despite the results of Protoss over the last 3 years being by large and far inferior to both Terran and Zerg.
im a master random player and im telling you protoss has the easiest macro/micro but are much more build order/build counter/retarded all ins and timings dependent. Need to add more micro like taking auto cast off charge
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It can be added but I think it's unnecessary.
The greatest threat I can pose in a macro game as P is a maxed out "deathball" type army. Having inherent speed prisms isn't going to change that or encourage me not to focus on that (read: I'm not going to not make immortals/colossi in favor of making 6+ prisms for "drop" harass). Warp prism play will continue to be just as rewarding for zealot/dt warp-in's while positioning/pushing the deathball.
So, will this change the dynamic of how P plays mid-late game? Probably not.
Will this give P a new tool to deal with something the other races have or received in HotS? Not really.
Will this give P another option for all-in type builds? Kind of, but the option was already there.
So do I think it's needed? Not really.
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Canada11355 Posts
Whether not Protoss is easiest to play or whether there is some sort of racial balance, I don't really care. All I know is like drop play for BW Protoss. I would like to see more drop play* for SC2 Protoss. Whatever it takes to get there, I'm game.
*And I do see drop play as different from warping your entire production line into an enemy base.
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I think the reason why protoss is underperforming is how easy it is for the two other races to be extremely aggressive in the mid game (turbovacs and mass muta corruptor) and protoss is forced to do a specific response(giving up map control and massing ranged phoenixes/zoning with storms and archons). These responses simply dont synergize with protoss aggression(templars are slow and archons need to zone things out properly, having to have warp ins/units at home makes PvT aggression much weaker, phoenixes arent that good at aggression when zergs have a ton of spores/infestors in the late game) which means that the other two races can put on aggression and get a ton of value out of it, while protoss has no way to put the hurt back, thats why we are seeing so many all ins and timings from protosses nowadays because protosses are unwilling to allow the other two races to get to the mid game super aggressive stage unhindered and deal with a very fast harassment style because their defenses are either slow when it comes to stopping it, or fast but unable to put on aggression themselves, while mutas and turbovacs can both defend vs harassment and harass very effectively.
That being said, the warp prism change, in the current meta game, is only going to encourage more all ins and timings instead of proper mid game aggression vs T and Z because if the timings are stronger and work nicely, why would anyone do anything else? I would prefer something unavailable early. Personally I want flux vanes(void ray speed) back while nerfing its damage a little bit. The thing is, zerg and terran air based aggression can, once you get to a certain point, ignore static defenses entirely, while protoss air based aggression cant(oracles, phoenixes, warp prisms having to change into phase mode) unless you do a huge investment into it. Void ray speed is a more interesting option I feel like.
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As a amateur terran Im starting to get really scared about toss harrass + all ins and their unstoppable lategame that requires the terran to play greedy/unsafe to beat on ladder ~_~
7 gate robo incoming all day
But seriously people arguing in this thread on ladder vs pro is silly. Yes, toss skill ceiling drops while zerg and terran continues to benefit heavily all game long from a much higher skill ceiling, meaning against mechanically strong T/Z protoss will just get man handled. However, on ladder where everyones skill is limited to about 100-200 apm toss benefits the most.
If they continue buffing protoss harrass options what we will get soon is some sort of 2 base gateway with or without DT warp prism that transitions into archon/collosi chargelot all ins, and while the game might be more balanced in the pro scene, the ladder will actually favor toss heavily.
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On May 29 2013 13:45 Falling wrote:
Whether not Protoss is easiest to play or whether there is some sort of racial balance, I don't really care. All I know is like drop play for BW Protoss. I would like to see more drop play* for SC2 Protoss. Whatever it takes to get there, I'm game.
*And I do see drop play as different from warping your entire production line into an enemy base.
Most of protoss drop play died with the reaver. Also storm was much better in bw because the aoe was bigger and killed workers faster.
the 1-2 speed shuttle harass with reavers was balanced because it required pretty good micro and you had to be so careful with the shuttle. Added some nice harass, micro and multi-task to protoss. There just isnt a unit like that in SC2 sadly.
Maybe add a transform upgrade to colossus which shrunk them so you can put 2 in a warp prism and the lazer have a shorter range but fired more rapidly, would have to target fire to make it most effective and would add some nice pick up micro like reavers.
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Please reconsider the 50/50 Burrow Upgrade for zerg ^_^ it timed sooo well with my build...
The HotS approach seems to be make harassment faster, mutas, medivac, and the intended oracle, i like the speed on warp prism better than the oracle indeed.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
Reaver drops were great to both watch and to play with IMO
Poll: Which do you prefer playing with?Reavers (22) 88% Colossi (3) 12% 25 total votes Your vote: Which do you prefer playing with? (Vote): Colossi
(Vote): Reavers
Poll: Which do you prefer watching?Reavers (23) 88% Colossi (3) 12% 26 total votes Your vote: Which do you prefer watching? (Vote): Colossi
(Vote): Reavers
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates.
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On May 29 2013 14:17 LegalLord wrote:
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates.
Remove the immortal or collosi then :/ (mostly collosi)
Immortals hard counter all ground armor units while having insane DPS and tankiness against everything else, while collosi forces opponents to make air to air units - basically dead supply vs ground. While immortal gateway may be dealt with on a ground to ground basis, and allowing toss to have the option to split push or having a small party of force similar to how terran plays bio vs zerg, having a buffed gateway comp and still having collosi will just make the deathball even more viable and stronger, and even more boring to watch
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that won't be necessary as proxygates would just stomp everything so it wouldn't get to that stage anyway.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On May 29 2013 14:20 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:17 LegalLord wrote:
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates. Remove the immortal or collosi then :/
Honestly, I'd prefer this.
The current protoss army basically serves as a wall to protect immortals/collossi, since it evaporates instantly and has no offensive strength.
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On May 29 2013 13:29 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:20 AstroPegnuin wrote:On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea. Saying Protoss mechanics are easy is an example of peoples stupid ignorance to the race, Honestly I'm just going to stop responding because I'm guessing 95% of people on this forum aren't even low masters and I really doubt I will ever convince anyone otherwise despite the results of Protoss over the last 3 years being by large and far inferior to both Terran and Zerg. im a master random player and im telling you protoss has the easiest macro/micro but are much more build order/build counter/retarded all ins and timings dependent. Need to add more micro like taking auto cast off charge
Nah, I think that type of thing would only add in "spam clicking" (which I don't think will be a big deal, it just makes people spam click). There are two types of mechanics:
1. One that is sort of mindless and is just requires massive clicking (lack of automining in BW for example).
2. And there is one of that requires practice and precise to get right (mutalisk micro, reaver shuttle micro, vulture micro, etc).
I say #2 should be added back for all 3 races if possible.
Add the Reaver back and adding something like shuttle micro from BW.
Also yes, it's been accepted that Protoss was the easiest mechanically in BW and also the same in SC2.
Does not mean it's the easiest race to play but it does mean that the race will need to rely on BOs and strategy way more than other races to win.
I say BW was kind of a good balance. Even though Protoss was still the easiest mechanical, it wasn't that much easier and there were plenty of ways to micro as a Protoss in BW (both actively like Reavers and Reaver drops and reactively against what your opponent was doing like defusing mines).
On May 29 2013 14:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:20 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:17 LegalLord wrote:
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates. Remove the immortal or collosi then :/ Honestly, I'd prefer this. The current protoss army basically serves as a wall to protect immortals/collossi, since it evaporates instantly and has no offensive strength.
I agree. I feel like the Colossus is the main problem with Protoss. Though, the Colossus does have a good side in that it encourages micro from the opposing races, so it's not really bad.
The Reaver is probably one of the greatest and most unique RTS unit. It's not just BW nostalgia either (I don't think the Lurker is that great, at least if it were to be added in SC2 for example).
The Reaver encouraged micro from "both" sides (which is rare for a unit to do). As a Protoss player, you need to aim your scarabs to where you think would do the most damage (while keeping it safe via shuttle and repositioning it whenever needed).
As the opponent, you want to watch where the Scarab follows/targets and try to move that unit away from the rest (scarabs can be blocked by other units, blocked by structures, etc, it was really fun).
My favorite RTS unit of all time is probably the Reaver.
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On May 29 2013 14:23 willstertben wrote:
that won't be necessary as proxygates would just stomp everything so it wouldn't get to that stage anyway.
Not necessarily, as this just makes sure other races will scout and open army production first (pool or rax wall off), similar to BW style.
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On May 29 2013 14:17 LegalLord wrote:
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates.
Ughh I've been pushing for this since season 2. But ya it's far too late for fucking blizz design team to admit they made such a big mistake.
GG. Add speedprisms, make their warp in time double for units that they power seems legit.
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Soon 2 base PvZ all ins will hit you sooner now!
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How about the opposite of a recall. Instead of bring back units, have a nexus ability to teleport units somewhere. Kinda plays in with the warp (prism) and the blink of the protoss. (also kinda something like the chrono in RA2)
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On May 29 2013 14:27 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:17 LegalLord wrote:
The problem with protoss is their weak T1 ground army. BW goon-lot is so much stronger than SC2 stalker-zealot, and I'm almost certain that the utterly cheesy warp gate mechanic is responsible for the change.
It won't happen, but I'd like to see buffed zealots, buffed stalkers (with higher range), and no warp gates. Ughh I've been pushing for this since season 2. But ya it's far too late for fucking blizz design team to admit they made such a big mistake. GG. Add speedprisms, make their warp in time double for units that they power seems legit.
That's another good idea.
A comproise is that units build by Gateways have higher stats (they can do easily by adding a behavior buff to units built/produced from gateways... or if they want to set the stats more exactly, they can have two copies of each unit, one that spawns from Warp Gates and the other from Gateways).
You can switch Warp Gates to Gateways but there is almost no reason to. Some sort of buff (or reason) to Gateways (not Warp Gates) have been suggested by none have really come through. I wouldn't mind to see something in the future.
Finally if they were worried about gateway cheeses (2 proxy gateways for example), the buff would only be unlocked maybe after the Cybernetics Core or Twilight Council is built (no upgrades needed, just need those tech structures to remain).
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Is it possible to add the reaver in the game and still have it balanced (even if you remove colossus)? Reaver worked in BW because whether or not it went off or was effective was somewhat random, and the pathfinding was pretty miserable. Imagine Reavers with SC2 pathfinding... it would ALWAYS hit its mark.
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