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On June 09 2013 02:12 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 22:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 08 2013 20:33 Bagi wrote:On June 08 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity. I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields. But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made. Tempests aren't that hard to counter at all, PDD is ridiculously effective against them and even attacking before tempests numbers get out of hand works most of the time. Their dps is simply too low to be threatening. The problem with immortals is that while they are only "very strong" in a maxed out fight, they become ridiculously strong in those scrappy situation where you've just taken a huge fight and try to deal some actual damage to the protoss infrastructure. Say you havent had enough time to replenish your hellbat wall, just a few immortals will waltz over and snipe all your tanks in seconds. Paired with archons mech just has a ridiculously hard time dealing any meaningful damage. No, I didn't read every single post in this thread before replying to this one, I didn't think that was a prerequisite when answering to a post. I still think you are selling the immortal short, as it deals so well with certain armies so well that it has forces the entire meta against protoss towards small, low damage ground units. It's not a unit that "needs a lot of love" just because it can't deal with everything, in fact changing the damage to a flat 35 could have extremely unpredictable results in all phases of the game. Immortal busts could become unstoppable while mech armies might no longer have proper counters. The Flash vs Parting game begs to differ with your analysis. Tempests allow Protoss to pressure mech armies without engaging them. Which literally is the only thing that mech armies are supposed to do well. What the immortal needs to be is less swingy. With flatter damage little things like having 5 range stop feeling like too huge a drawback. As a mech TvPer, I never really understood why people fear tempests. There are so many things I'm afraid of in TvP mech, tempest is one of those units which I can actually counter effectively aslong as I scout it in time.
It's not that Tempests can't be countered. The problem is the role of the Tempest and the nature of what people want mech to be (BW Mech play)
BW Mech play is about having an immobile army stuck to the ground being strong and scary because you can't engage it. Tempests circumvents that and forces mech to be more mobile. When mech is mobile, then it's just MMM with tracks instead of boots. The point of mech is its immobility, if you move around the map with it it stops being mech.
Immortals don't break the gameplay of mech, it simply makes it more vulnerable to pushes. You still play it like you expect "mech play" to work and you simply hope that you reached a critical mass of tanks where focus fire will kill immortals too quickly for thier 50 damage to matter. Versus tempests you actually have to stop playing mech until the Tempests are dealt with.
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On June 11 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 02:12 Zarahtra wrote:On June 08 2013 22:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 08 2013 20:33 Bagi wrote:On June 08 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity. I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields. But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made. Tempests aren't that hard to counter at all, PDD is ridiculously effective against them and even attacking before tempests numbers get out of hand works most of the time. Their dps is simply too low to be threatening. The problem with immortals is that while they are only "very strong" in a maxed out fight, they become ridiculously strong in those scrappy situation where you've just taken a huge fight and try to deal some actual damage to the protoss infrastructure. Say you havent had enough time to replenish your hellbat wall, just a few immortals will waltz over and snipe all your tanks in seconds. Paired with archons mech just has a ridiculously hard time dealing any meaningful damage. No, I didn't read every single post in this thread before replying to this one, I didn't think that was a prerequisite when answering to a post. I still think you are selling the immortal short, as it deals so well with certain armies so well that it has forces the entire meta against protoss towards small, low damage ground units. It's not a unit that "needs a lot of love" just because it can't deal with everything, in fact changing the damage to a flat 35 could have extremely unpredictable results in all phases of the game. Immortal busts could become unstoppable while mech armies might no longer have proper counters. The Flash vs Parting game begs to differ with your analysis. Tempests allow Protoss to pressure mech armies without engaging them. Which literally is the only thing that mech armies are supposed to do well. What the immortal needs to be is less swingy. With flatter damage little things like having 5 range stop feeling like too huge a drawback. As a mech TvPer, I never really understood why people fear tempests. There are so many things I'm afraid of in TvP mech, tempest is one of those units which I can actually counter effectively aslong as I scout it in time. It's not that Tempests can't be countered. The problem is the role of the Tempest and the nature of what people want mech to be (BW Mech play) BW Mech play is about having an immobile army stuck to the ground being strong and scary because you can't engage it. Tempests circumvents that and forces mech to be more mobile. When mech is mobile, then it's just MMM with tracks instead of boots. The point of mech is its immobility, if you move around the map with it it stops being mech. Immortals don't break the gameplay of mech, it simply makes it more vulnerable to pushes. You still play it like you expect "mech play" to work and you simply hope that you reached a critical mass of tanks where focus fire will kill immortals too quickly for thier 50 damage to matter. Versus tempests you actually have to stop playing mech until the Tempests are dealt with.
It's not that Carriers can't be countered in Brood War, but they do force Goliaths, a mech unit that is more mobile than Tanks,Thors,Battle Hellion and basically every mech unit exception made for the Hellion (Vulture) and Goliaths are forced to run around trying to zone out carriers, since carriers not only outrange them but can outmicro them...
Replace Carriers with Tempests and Goliaths with Vikings, and you have a very similar mechanic on a theoretical basis, which is what you're concerned about, any problems stemming from this replacement are purely balance related ones.
BW Mech play is about having an immobile army stuck to the ground being strong and scary because you can't engage it.
Imho, StarCraft has never dealt in absolutes, and even mech has to run around when faced with a mobile aerial threat that is made exactly to force that.
Ps. the reason why it's Tempests having this role in Sc2 instead of carrier is that Vikings and Carriers share their attack range, so it's much harder to do that with carriers, althought they're quite dangerous to Vikings, which certainly can't be said for Tempests :D
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3815 Posts
I have no idea why anyone wants mech to be viable in its current form against Protoss. It's less interesting than watching paint dry. Amusingly, mech in TvP, were numbers tweaked so that it was more viable, would basically be like the way Protoss plays against bio, except mech is actually even more monotonous and less micro-heavy. Mech in TvP, even ideally in HotS, is basically turtling until 170-200 supply and pushing unstoppably across the map. It's not interesting, it's not a chess battle like people want to imagine it is, and it doesn't take very much talent to control as a composition. That's why I'm always amazed that people don't want only bio to be viable. Why not? Bio is fun as fuck to watch. The splitting, the EMPs, the dance with the Vikings, the constant threat of multi-pronged aggression from both players...that's awesome! Why would anyone want to trade that for a big mass of Siege Tanks in the middle of the map with 8 million turrets at every base and Planetaries everywhere? Who wants to watch Tempest/Carrier/Storm versus Viking/Ghost? It's just some slow-push, hour-long trade that culminates in the map being mined out.
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On June 11 2013 06:48 Shiori wrote:
I have no idea why anyone wants mech to be viable in its current form against Protoss. It's less interesting than watching paint dry. Amusingly, mech in TvP, were numbers tweaked so that it was more viable, would basically be like the way Protoss plays against bio, except mech is actually even more monotonous and less micro-heavy. Mech in TvP, even ideally in HotS, is basically turtling until 170-200 supply and pushing unstoppably across the map. It's not interesting, it's not a chess battle like people want to imagine it is, and it doesn't take very much talent to control as a composition. That's why I'm always amazed that people don't want only bio to be viable. Why not? Bio is fun as fuck to watch. The splitting, the EMPs, the dance with the Vikings, the constant threat of multi-pronged aggression from both players...that's awesome! Why would anyone want to trade that for a big mass of Siege Tanks in the middle of the map with 8 million turrets at every base and Planetaries everywhere? Who wants to watch Tempest/Carrier/Storm versus Viking/Ghost? It's just some slow-push, hour-long trade that culminates in the map being mined out.
I think its nostalgia mostly. BW Mech was a long line of tanks moving about 2-3 spaces at a time. Sure a carrier (much like a tempest now) forces them to move about, but people forget how hard and how boring it is to watch such an immobile force. The only thing that was really cool about BW mech was over-extension. You'd see this blob of death spread and grow until it stretches too thin and the counter-push breaks it.
But perfect mech play was suffocating to watch. It's only big merit was that it was the hardest play style to get perfect and so it was impressive to get right.
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On June 11 2013 06:48 Shiori wrote:
I have no idea why anyone wants mech to be viable in its current form against Protoss. It's less interesting than watching paint dry. Amusingly, mech in TvP, were numbers tweaked so that it was more viable, would basically be like the way Protoss plays against bio, except mech is actually even more monotonous and less micro-heavy. Mech in TvP, even ideally in HotS, is basically turtling until 170-200 supply and pushing unstoppably across the map. It's not interesting, it's not a chess battle like people want to imagine it is, and it doesn't take very much talent to control as a composition. That's why I'm always amazed that people don't want only bio to be viable. Why not? Bio is fun as fuck to watch. The splitting, the EMPs, the dance with the Vikings, the constant threat of multi-pronged aggression from both players...that's awesome! Why would anyone want to trade that for a big mass of Siege Tanks in the middle of the map with 8 million turrets at every base and Planetaries everywhere? Who wants to watch Tempest/Carrier/Storm versus Viking/Ghost? It's just some slow-push, hour-long trade that culminates in the map being mined out.
Because not everyone like the same things i quess. I watched enough bio TvP and this matchup was never that interesting too me, i prefer watching Terran build based around tanks.
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From Meta:
Artosis: "Have you tried out that new warp prism speed map?"
IdrA:"I'm scared of it."
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I think warp prism should be basically cheaper and should have some additional funcion...
This is so because both Z and T have ways of dropping big chunks of their armies at once in the enemy base. Z has overlords, T has medivacs. P does not have such option, because:
1. Warp prisms are too expensive
2. Too easy to be lost
3. Don't have as many basic functions as overlords and medivacs
In the end pro players never build more than 1-2 warp prisms and they never execute really big drops...
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EPT
