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On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
Are you kidding? Changes to immortal, okay. Alot of love (read: buffs), hell no.
The immortal is meant to be a tank against units that deal alot of damage. Besides that they also rip through armored units. But look at how they do against non-armored units which deal little damage per attack, so the units that counter immortals: It has twice the dps and close enough to twice the HP of a stalker, for twice the cost/pop. Then add that a single unit is almost always better than two units with half the HP/dps, and immortals do just as good against their direct counter as stalkers do.
Of course in reality there are more factors. Such as mobility and production facilities, and stalkers are way more flexible. But at the same time it also has its hardened shields and its huge damage bonus vs armored, so really I don't see any reasons to overall boost immortals.
@Big J, problem is you cannot make voids/phoenix good against ground units, since they also are good against air units. In theory banshees could be good against ground units (currently they aren't), since you can always hardcounter them with air to air. But if you have phoenix that counter most air units, and aditionally also make them good against ground units, it really is a bad idea.
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On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit.
That is a very good point. Nice way to think about protoss tech. I think they are doing a better job with the void ray making it at least ok against most stuff, when you mass it at least. But having a unit straight out of the robo that is more cost effective all-around would make rushing to splash damage less necessary. We may have to wait for LotV for a unit that does that though.
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On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
What?? Immortals are very powerful and do not need any buff. Why do Immortal busts even exist if they're "weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time"? Did you even check numbers to see that an Immortal deals +78% damage (50 vs 28) to Armored targets compared to 2 Stalkers? And last I checked, Hardened shield makes Immortal a stupid hardcounter to Tanks, so no it's definitely not a bad tradeoff.
On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens
Storm already does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Want KA back? Get rid of Warpgate.
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Due to me being a protoss player, its hard for me to look at the change objectively. With that being said, I dont think it will have that great of an impact on gameplay. This is because currently, warp prism speed can be researched pretty quickly and cheaply in the first place. I believe the reason why it isnt used a lot is because in games is because it isnt a very strong investment. I personally would much rather get observer speed before wp speed. So the change is aimed at giving protoss a little more viability to have better harrass (which even with the oracle, protoss is still really lacking) and open up more timing windows early-mid game. It will also allow for more map control, which imo protoss has the least of the 3 races. Will it be game breaking? No. will it add more variation to gameplay/ meta? Yes, at least to some degree. I think its an overall good change.
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On June 05 2013 03:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Storm already does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Want KA back? Get rid of Warpgate.
That would actually solve a lot of problems by forcing Blizzard to change the game to a much slower and much more manageable speed ... and away from MACRO (mass-producing and re-producing units) being more important than MICRO (keeping your units alive while being more efficient at killing your opponent).
I just recently started the campaign of BW again and BCs are STRONG ... compared to the papier mâché ones in SC2 (because they are simply shot down by the massive numbers of easily produced ground units). A much reduced production capacity for the races would really make tough units - like Stalkers and Immortals and Siege Tanks - more important and stronger. This distinction sadly got lost with SC2.
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On June 05 2013 04:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:54 TheDwf wrote:On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Storm already does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Want KA back? Get rid of Warpgate. That would actually solve a lot of problems by forcing Blizzard to change the game to a much slower and much more manageable speed ... and away from MACRO (mass-producing and re-producing units) being more important than MICRO (keeping your units alive while being more efficient at killing your opponent). I just recently started the campaign of BW again and BCs are STRONG ... compared to the papier mâché ones in SC2 (because they are simply shot down by the massive numbers of easily produced ground units). A much reduced production capacity for the races would really make tough units - like Stalkers and Immortals and Siege Tanks - more important and stronger. This distinction sadly got lost with SC2.
Alot of things got lost, some few KEY things. Sadly, wrong thread about it but as an oldschool Bw player, its really sad tbh! damn you blizzard
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On June 05 2013 04:06 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 04:01 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2013 03:54 TheDwf wrote:On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Storm already does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Want KA back? Get rid of Warpgate. That would actually solve a lot of problems by forcing Blizzard to change the game to a much slower and much more manageable speed ... and away from MACRO (mass-producing and re-producing units) being more important than MICRO (keeping your units alive while being more efficient at killing your opponent). I just recently started the campaign of BW again and BCs are STRONG ... compared to the papier mâché ones in SC2 (because they are simply shot down by the massive numbers of easily produced ground units). A much reduced production capacity for the races would really make tough units - like Stalkers and Immortals and Siege Tanks - more important and stronger. This distinction sadly got lost with SC2. Alot of things got lost, some few KEY things. Sadly, wrong thread about it but as an oldschool Bw player, its really sad tbh! damn you blizzard
This has been suggested before but honestly I would love it if you could only warpgate through warp prisms...keep the cool mechanic (because warpgate is cool), but it would force it to be an aggressive mid and late game technique (or all in if you rush to warp prism), as opposed to the catch all production that it is now.
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On June 05 2013 03:53 Sissors wrote:
@Big J, problem is you cannot make voids/phoenix good against ground units, since they also are good against air units. In theory banshees could be good against ground units (currently they aren't), since you can always hardcounter them with air to air. But if you have phoenix that counter most air units, and aditionally also make them good against ground units, it really is a bad idea.
Yeah, I agree. I think they have made the voidray as good as possible for an airunit. And the phoenix is by design an AtA counter, so it's not like they even should be really good. That's why I think they should adress the immortal.
On June 05 2013 03:53 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. That is a very good point. Nice way to think about protoss tech. I think they are doing a better job with the void ray making it at least ok against most stuff, when you mass it at least. But having a unit straight out of the robo that is more cost effective all-around would make rushing to splash damage less necessary. We may have to wait for LotV for a unit that does that though.
Just throwing it out as an idea to see what people think of this:
Immortal damage changed from 20+30 vs armored to plain 30.
Immortal speed from 2.25 to 2.9531 (stalker speed).
Immortal production time from 55 to 45.
Would this be workable? Like, it would be a nerf against stalker and roachheavy play and lategame mass ultralisk - but you would also be able to get out more immortals reactively. On the flipside, the immortal would become a little more stable against marines (now 2 shot them instead of 3shots them, unless they are healed, in which case they 3shot instead of 4shot them) and zerglings (1immortal+1stalker/sentry shot now kill a zergling) and hydras (3shots instead of 5shots) and workers (it already two shots probes, but 3shots drones/scvs). And it would be more kiteable and could keep up with stalkers, when going out on the map.
I know, 50damage vs 30damage sounds a lot, but the average damage when an immortal shoots half of the time on nonarmored units (and they do a lot, zerglings and marines are usually everywhere and hydras are used much more often as well) is only -5, while the immortal is now much better in certain scenarios.
Again, I guess the crux is probably blinkstalker rushes and roachrushes, but in both cases, immortals are still going to be very costefficient and I think the production time buff and the ability to kite makes up for that at least partly.
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On June 05 2013 04:12 GattAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 04:06 Foxxan wrote:On June 05 2013 04:01 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2013 03:54 TheDwf wrote:On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Storm already does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Want KA back? Get rid of Warpgate. That would actually solve a lot of problems by forcing Blizzard to change the game to a much slower and much more manageable speed ... and away from MACRO (mass-producing and re-producing units) being more important than MICRO (keeping your units alive while being more efficient at killing your opponent). I just recently started the campaign of BW again and BCs are STRONG ... compared to the papier mâché ones in SC2 (because they are simply shot down by the massive numbers of easily produced ground units). A much reduced production capacity for the races would really make tough units - like Stalkers and Immortals and Siege Tanks - more important and stronger. This distinction sadly got lost with SC2. Alot of things got lost, some few KEY things. Sadly, wrong thread about it but as an oldschool Bw player, its really sad tbh! damn you blizzard This has been suggested before but honestly I would love it if you could only warpgate through warp prisms...keep the cool mechanic (because warpgate is cool), but it would force it to be an aggressive mid and late game technique (or all in if you rush to warp prism), as opposed to the catch all production that it is now.
Well, if it didn't seem like such a BOOST to production it wouldn't be so common...
For example.
Terran Buildings have the option of being naked, reactored, or Techlabbed. Naked is cheaper, Reactored means more units, techlab means better units. You, as a player, make a choice as to how you want your base to run--although not really, tech and timings determine whether or not you get Reactor/Techlab/None, but you at least feel the sense of choice and get to make it.
Once you get warpgate you can never use gateways. Each naked barracks saves gas, saves minerals. 5 reactored raxes costs 250/250 which is more than it costs to get Thermal Lance. There is a cost attached to making add-ons and hence you can't just "make add-ons" on everything. Each one is a decision.
Warpgates are different. You get it once, and all your gateways now *HAVE* to be warpgates. There is no give and take, no decision making. No tangible advantage to skipping warp gates. The only "decision making" moments are "how many chrono boosts?" that's it--that's all you get. That's boring. Building placements stop mattering since you no longer need to worry about walking paths. High building clump happens which creates Artosis Pylon's because it feels inefficient to use up multiple pylons per gateway clumps. etc...
Terrans run out of space all the time, building their barracks farms in front of their natural trying to fit everything.
If there seemed like there is a cost to having warpgates, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But currently, there is only a cost to having gateways.
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On May 30 2013 22:53 Crownlol wrote:
Odd idea, but this seems the right place for it. Why are Protoss t1 unit upgrades researched at a t3 building, while every other race can research their mechanic upgrades faster (stim/conc/ling speed/roachspeed)?
Currently, Protoss's biggest problem is weak Gateway units right? I believe this is universally agreed upon. Would moving Charge and Blink to Cybercore really be that OP? Stim and Conc shell are more gamechanging, and are researched from a t1.5/t2 building.
Blink might be a bit much, but putting Charge in Cybercore would encourage more aggressive play. At least Zealot drops would actually do some harassment.
I think it is this way because:
1. This "tier" talk does not exist on reality, what can be considered tier? I can tell you that a tech lab is tier 2 ? lol, there is no point of this type of discussion. The only race that have clear "tier" divisions is zerg because of hatchery.
2. The zerg and terran upgrades that you mencioned are like "your units will SUCK without and if you move without them it's a huge risk of losing your entire army."
Ex: You will attack a T without roach speed? You can, but if you try to run, you are *****. You will attack a P without stim pack? Bitch, please.
But from a P point of view, you can attack a T without blink no problem right? Charge? Pretty ok.
So, i think the P upgrades feel really like upgrades, but T and Z upgrades are like primary features that were ripped off.
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On June 05 2013 04:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:53 Sissors wrote:
@Big J, problem is you cannot make voids/phoenix good against ground units, since they also are good against air units. In theory banshees could be good against ground units (currently they aren't), since you can always hardcounter them with air to air. But if you have phoenix that counter most air units, and aditionally also make them good against ground units, it really is a bad idea. Yeah, I agree. I think they have made the voidray as good as possible for an airunit. And the phoenix is by design an AtA counter, so it's not like they even should be really good. That's why I think they should adress the immortal.
I agree with your Immortal idea--I posted a similar one a page back.
But as for the AtA design of the Voidray--that's simply due to the void made by removing the Scout from BW. Protoss needed an AtA unit that isn't only good against Mutalisks and Scourge (Phoenix/Corsair) but could actually do well toe to toe against other air units. The Scout did this in BW wherein if you tried to "go Battlecruisers" against Protoss, they make Scouts and have a fighting chance in a fight above water (island maps were eventually removed removing this dynamic but would come back if they made more maps with big empty center areas)
The Voidray was used to fill this role but since it hits both air and ground, it has to be given a weakness unless you want AxiomAlicia to be the standard play on ladder.
If they give Protoss a Scout-esque unit in the next SC2 expansion they can make Voidrays the dedicated ground unit they really feel like they should be.
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Is it known if this is ever going to go through?
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On June 07 2013 08:04 Enemony wrote:
Is it known if this is ever going to go through?
I imagine they'll be making a decision post-WCS finals. We better keep our fingers crossed that the Protoss do really well. 
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On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad.
I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity.
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On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity.
I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields.
But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made.
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On June 08 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity. I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields. But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made.
Tempests aren't that hard to counter at all, PDD is ridiculously effective against them and even attacking before tempests numbers get out of hand works most of the time. Their dps is simply too low to be threatening.
The problem with immortals is that while they are only "very strong" in a maxed out fight, they become ridiculously strong in those scrappy situation where you've just taken a huge fight and try to deal some actual damage to the protoss infrastructure. Say you havent had enough time to replenish your hellbat wall, just a few immortals will waltz over and snipe all your tanks in seconds. Paired with archons mech just has a ridiculously hard time dealing any meaningful damage.
No, I didn't read every single post in this thread before replying to this one, I didn't think that was a prerequisite when answering to a post. I still think you are selling the immortal short, as it deals so well with certain armies so well that it has forces the entire meta against protoss towards small, low damage ground units. It's not a unit that "needs a lot of love" just because it can't deal with everything, in fact changing the damage to a flat 35 could have extremely unpredictable results in all phases of the game. Immortal busts could become unstoppable while mech armies might no longer have proper counters.
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On June 08 2013 20:33 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity. I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields. But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made. Tempests aren't that hard to counter at all, PDD is ridiculously effective against them and even attacking before tempests numbers get out of hand works most of the time. Their dps is simply too low to be threatening. The problem with immortals is that while they are only "very strong" in a maxed out fight, they become ridiculously strong in those scrappy situation where you've just taken a huge fight and try to deal some actual damage to the protoss infrastructure. Say you havent had enough time to replenish your hellbat wall, just a few immortals will waltz over and snipe all your tanks in seconds. Paired with archons mech just has a ridiculously hard time dealing any meaningful damage. No, I didn't read every single post in this thread before replying to this one, I didn't think that was a prerequisite when answering to a post. I still think you are selling the immortal short, as it deals so well with certain armies so well that it has forces the entire meta against protoss towards small, low damage ground units. It's not a unit that "needs a lot of love" just because it can't deal with everything, in fact changing the damage to a flat 35 could have extremely unpredictable results in all phases of the game. Immortal busts could become unstoppable while mech armies might no longer have proper counters.
The Flash vs Parting game begs to differ with your analysis. Tempests allow Protoss to pressure mech armies without engaging them. Which literally is the only thing that mech armies are supposed to do well. What the immortal needs to be is less swingy. With flatter damage little things like having 5 range stop feeling like too huge a drawback.
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Using one single game as proof, what could possibly go wrong? How about you just try a-moving towards the protoss while those 300/200 units shoot at you with the dps of an upgraded roach? If that proves impossible then just deny vision with scans and vikings.
You say you know what the immortal needs to be yet you have no idea, you can't just change a core unit so massively and think everything falls into place. What you are suggesting is a huge fundamental role shift to the unit, not even any of the units that got changed in HOTS were changed to that extent. Only possible exception being the reaper but it was a "safe" change because the unit got relegated to a relatively harmless scouting role.
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On June 08 2013 22:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 20:33 Bagi wrote:On June 08 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 07 2013 23:40 Bagi wrote:On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." The immortal is powerful as fuck against units its designed to counter, for example terran mech. They're the biggest reason mech is so bad. I could accept a redesign to give the unit more utility but make it weaker against mech but just outright buffing it is insanity. I actually believe that Tempests and Warp Prisms (as is) is the reason Mech is not that great. Once tanks reach a high enough number their range+splash more than compensates for Hardened Shields. But, saying that, I wonder if you read my listed suggestions such as reducing damaged against armored, increasing speed, etc... Ie, making it more a "general" unit like the Stalker, but beefier. Because if you just read that one sentence and replied the way you did--I feel like you probably responded before reading the whole series of posts I made. Tempests aren't that hard to counter at all, PDD is ridiculously effective against them and even attacking before tempests numbers get out of hand works most of the time. Their dps is simply too low to be threatening. The problem with immortals is that while they are only "very strong" in a maxed out fight, they become ridiculously strong in those scrappy situation where you've just taken a huge fight and try to deal some actual damage to the protoss infrastructure. Say you havent had enough time to replenish your hellbat wall, just a few immortals will waltz over and snipe all your tanks in seconds. Paired with archons mech just has a ridiculously hard time dealing any meaningful damage. No, I didn't read every single post in this thread before replying to this one, I didn't think that was a prerequisite when answering to a post. I still think you are selling the immortal short, as it deals so well with certain armies so well that it has forces the entire meta against protoss towards small, low damage ground units. It's not a unit that "needs a lot of love" just because it can't deal with everything, in fact changing the damage to a flat 35 could have extremely unpredictable results in all phases of the game. Immortal busts could become unstoppable while mech armies might no longer have proper counters. The Flash vs Parting game begs to differ with your analysis. Tempests allow Protoss to pressure mech armies without engaging them. Which literally is the only thing that mech armies are supposed to do well. What the immortal needs to be is less swingy. With flatter damage little things like having 5 range stop feeling like too huge a drawback.
As a mech TvPer, I never really understood why people fear tempests. There are so many things I'm afraid of in TvP mech, tempest is one of those units which I can actually counter effectively aslong as I scout it in time.
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They are making the warp prism start with what was the speed buff and giving it increased acceleration.
This is going to change a lot, and make Protoss more fun to watch. I still kind of hope they implement the oracle speed change too, so it won't always be a robo opening and no matter what opening there would be speed and aggression from Protoss instead of turtling.
I also remember back when there were double immortal drops and pickups for a moment in PvP. Those were fun to watch.
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EPT
