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It's not drastic, so if it goes through I don't foresee big issues with things swinging in protoss' favor. But it neither addresses the fact that at some points protoss appears weak compositionally or what I would personally argue is the real reason protoss under-perform, which is the map pool.
Until there's a lengthy conversation about the fact that there are just not a lot of consistently defendable thirds in this map pool, it strikes me as irresponsible to throw around ideas for a balance patch (as a protoss player). That's in part because the map pool will improve, and the balance changes made with, for instance, whirlwind in mind would probably deserve being revisited when it goes out of the pool, but we already know that they most likely won't be. This mistake was made in the first year of WoL, I'd rather we didn't make it again.
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On June 03 2013 11:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point?
Ok.
Medivac needs: Barrack (150/0) Factory (150/100) starport (150/100)
The unit costs 100/100
High Templar needs: Gateway (150/0), Cybernetic core (150/0), Twillight Council (150/100), Templar Archives (150/200), and Psionic storm (200/200)
The unit costs 50/150
This.
My point is that high templar requires very high tech whereas medivac and marines don't. Therefore, of course Zealots with high templars are strong but what should Protoss do beforehand? high templars with Psionic storms are almost mid-late game units. I think this is why protoss tends to make death balls...Just wait till the time comes!
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On June 03 2013 12:25 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 11:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Why would removing either be a good thing?
Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point? Ok. Medivac needs: Barrack (150/0) Factory (150/100) starport (150/100) The unit costs 100/100 High Templar needs: Gateway (150/0), Cybernetic core (150/0), Twillight Council (150/100), Templar Archives (150/200), and Psionic storm (200/200) The unit costs 50/150 This. My point is that high templar requires very high tech whereas medivac and marines don't. Therefore, of course Zealots with high templars are strong but what should Protoss do beforehand? high templars with Psionic storms are almost mid-late game units. I think this is why protoss tends to make death balls...Just wait till the time comes!
Wait--you want to include storm but won't add in Stim/Shield/Conc + Tech Labs?
Fast Medivacs show up between 8-10 minutes unless you're one basing. Medivacs are midgame units.
Which actually is ignoring the initial exchange.
People compare Gateway + Cybernetics Core tech (Zealot/Sentry/Stalker) to Marine/Maruader/Medivac as if Marine/Marauder/Medivac is the same tech level as Gateway+Cybernetics Core.
When add 200/200 worth of upgrades, as well as Factory+Starport producing medivacs 2 at a time (200/200 every 40 seconds) as compare that level of tech with Zealot/Sentry/Stalker it completely ignores that fact that Terran has to use the majority of its tech (everything minus Fusion Core) to fight Gateway level protoss tech.
Its extremely dishonest.
Now, when you add High Templars, the tech is a bit higher and hence Gateway+Templar beats Barracks+Starport
Terran then gets ghosts
So Gateway+Templars is even vs Barracks/Starport/Academy
Now, you're getting upgrades
Gateway+Templars is even with Barracks/Starport/Academy/Armory
Seen side by side, both Terran AND Protoss have even strength armies and even levels of tech. Not a 1:1 ratio, but it's relatively even. But most people somehow pretend that a Terran getting Factory+Starport is "tier 1 tech" but a terran getting Factory+Starport+Fusion core is "tier 3" tech.
The truth is that Factory/Starport is tier 2/3 tech and yet its treated as tier 1 tech by non-terrans.
It's insulting.
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Still unsure about this change idea. I normally use the prism anyway and get the upgrade as well as it is needed in the lategame.
Since I was a bit bored I already played around with it abit and the speed gave me the opportunity to end the game quiet often in an anticlimactic way of: "oops you got a forcefield on your main ramp and you'll never prevent my sentry prism from keeping that up." And I choose a map where the ramp isn't that easy to abuse by this (Zerus).
Which can happen now already. But like the speedvac can suddenly turn around drop at a total different location, so can the speed prism. HotS Protoss is quiet capable of busting the front with brute force if the opponent splits. And unlike the Medivac even an empty Prism can be a danger.
Just had 2 test subjects though that were slightly weaker then me. But since they knew what was coming they basically had an advantage.
On the other hand I enjoyed the Immortal speed prims immensely, especially against Zerg who had to put all their tech close to each other, which makes it perfectly snipeable in the lategame.
But I don't like removal of upgrades anyway, since rushing through the tech is bad for the flow of the game in my eyes.
I would prefer to see the robo bay getting cheaper, but increasing the price of the range for colossus. Would make the obs speed and prism speed more accessible. It would make it easier to fake Colossus though and of course to get one out without range.
It is rather sad though that people disregard upgrades that force you to do something so they pay for themself or upgrades that only up your defense.
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why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it
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On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it
Each race has had its OP era.
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On June 03 2013 13:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it Each race has had its OP era.
In fairness, we still haven't had the year where most GSL's are won by Protoss.
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On June 03 2013 12:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 12:25 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 11:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point? Ok. Medivac needs: Barrack (150/0) Factory (150/100) starport (150/100) The unit costs 100/100 High Templar needs: Gateway (150/0), Cybernetic core (150/0), Twillight Council (150/100), Templar Archives (150/200), and Psionic storm (200/200) The unit costs 50/150 This. My point is that high templar requires very high tech whereas medivac and marines don't. Therefore, of course Zealots with high templars are strong but what should Protoss do beforehand? high templars with Psionic storms are almost mid-late game units. I think this is why protoss tends to make death balls...Just wait till the time comes! Wait--you want to include storm but won't add in Stim/Shield/Conc + Tech Labs? Fast Medivacs show up between 8-10 minutes unless you're one basing. Medivacs are midgame units. Which actually is ignoring the initial exchange. People compare Gateway + Cybernetics Core tech (Zealot/Sentry/Stalker) to Marine/Maruader/Medivac as if Marine/Marauder/Medivac is the same tech level as Gateway+Cybernetics Core. When add 200/200 worth of upgrades, as well as Factory+Starport producing medivacs 2 at a time (200/200 every 40 seconds) as compare that level of tech with Zealot/Sentry/Stalker it completely ignores that fact that Terran has to use the majority of its tech (everything minus Fusion Core) to fight Gateway level protoss tech. Its extremely dishonest. Now, when you add High Templars, the tech is a bit higher and hence Gateway+Templar beats Barracks+Starport Terran then gets ghosts So Gateway+Templars is even vs Barracks/Starport/Academy Now, you're getting upgrades Gateway+Templars is even with Barracks/Starport/Academy/Armory Seen side by side, both Terran AND Protoss have even strength armies and even levels of tech. Not a 1:1 ratio, but it's relatively even. But most people somehow pretend that a Terran getting Factory+Starport is "tier 1 tech" but a terran getting Factory+Starport+Fusion core is "tier 3" tech. The truth is that Factory/Starport is tier 2/3 tech and yet its treated as tier 1 tech by non-terrans. It's insulting.
My bad,,, Forget to includes upgrades for terran. And by the way I didn't mean to insult anyone. I was just trying to figuring out what would be a balance match in mid-games with vs MMM.
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On June 03 2013 13:21 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 12:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 12:25 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 11:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They've done nothing of the sort.
Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point? Ok. Medivac needs: Barrack (150/0) Factory (150/100) starport (150/100) The unit costs 100/100 High Templar needs: Gateway (150/0), Cybernetic core (150/0), Twillight Council (150/100), Templar Archives (150/200), and Psionic storm (200/200) The unit costs 50/150 This. My point is that high templar requires very high tech whereas medivac and marines don't. Therefore, of course Zealots with high templars are strong but what should Protoss do beforehand? high templars with Psionic storms are almost mid-late game units. I think this is why protoss tends to make death balls...Just wait till the time comes! Wait--you want to include storm but won't add in Stim/Shield/Conc + Tech Labs? Fast Medivacs show up between 8-10 minutes unless you're one basing. Medivacs are midgame units. Which actually is ignoring the initial exchange. People compare Gateway + Cybernetics Core tech (Zealot/Sentry/Stalker) to Marine/Maruader/Medivac as if Marine/Marauder/Medivac is the same tech level as Gateway+Cybernetics Core. When add 200/200 worth of upgrades, as well as Factory+Starport producing medivacs 2 at a time (200/200 every 40 seconds) as compare that level of tech with Zealot/Sentry/Stalker it completely ignores that fact that Terran has to use the majority of its tech (everything minus Fusion Core) to fight Gateway level protoss tech. Its extremely dishonest. Now, when you add High Templars, the tech is a bit higher and hence Gateway+Templar beats Barracks+Starport Terran then gets ghosts So Gateway+Templars is even vs Barracks/Starport/Academy Now, you're getting upgrades Gateway+Templars is even with Barracks/Starport/Academy/Armory Seen side by side, both Terran AND Protoss have even strength armies and even levels of tech. Not a 1:1 ratio, but it's relatively even. But most people somehow pretend that a Terran getting Factory+Starport is "tier 1 tech" but a terran getting Factory+Starport+Fusion core is "tier 3" tech. The truth is that Factory/Starport is tier 2/3 tech and yet its treated as tier 1 tech by non-terrans. It's insulting. My bad,,, Forget to includes upgrades for terran. And by the way I didn't mean to insult anyone. I was just trying to figuring out what would be a balance match in mid-games with vs MMM.
Sorry, I wasn't "exactly" venting at you but at TL in general.
There's a lot of thrown around phrases like "Gateway units too weak" or "Terran pure tier 1, Marine/Maruader/Medivac"
Here's what I've been mostly observing.
Ling Speed and Stim neuter Protoss' units early on. Poking with the first 1-3 stalkers is really strong as they can kite marines/lings for days. Add 1-2 Zealots in the mix and suddenly even marauders can't touch you.
But then the 4-6 minute mark hits and suddenly Protoss units gets gimped by ling speed/stim/shields/etc... and to make it worse, it's not until you get "tier 3" tech of Storm/Thermal Lance that you can finally match up.
With good enough mechanics blink greatly closes the gap between gateway units and stim/metabolic boost--but one misclick/positional mistake and you lose 12-24 stalkers in the blink of an eye.
The rhythm isn't fair. It takes about 2-3 minutes for a protoss player to get his stalkers out and he only has the "tier 1 advantage" for about 1-3 minutes before stim/metabolic boost finishes. That's a terrible. Since it will take protoss until about 8-10 minutes before they get their upgrades in which case protoss feels like they're units are useless for about 5-10 minutes while only feeling awesome with them for 2-3.
Entertainment wise, that is a terrible ratio.
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On June 03 2013 13:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 13:21 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 12:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 12:25 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 11:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness.
The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point? Ok. Medivac needs: Barrack (150/0) Factory (150/100) starport (150/100) The unit costs 100/100 High Templar needs: Gateway (150/0), Cybernetic core (150/0), Twillight Council (150/100), Templar Archives (150/200), and Psionic storm (200/200) The unit costs 50/150 This. My point is that high templar requires very high tech whereas medivac and marines don't. Therefore, of course Zealots with high templars are strong but what should Protoss do beforehand? high templars with Psionic storms are almost mid-late game units. I think this is why protoss tends to make death balls...Just wait till the time comes! Wait--you want to include storm but won't add in Stim/Shield/Conc + Tech Labs? Fast Medivacs show up between 8-10 minutes unless you're one basing. Medivacs are midgame units. Which actually is ignoring the initial exchange. People compare Gateway + Cybernetics Core tech (Zealot/Sentry/Stalker) to Marine/Maruader/Medivac as if Marine/Marauder/Medivac is the same tech level as Gateway+Cybernetics Core. When add 200/200 worth of upgrades, as well as Factory+Starport producing medivacs 2 at a time (200/200 every 40 seconds) as compare that level of tech with Zealot/Sentry/Stalker it completely ignores that fact that Terran has to use the majority of its tech (everything minus Fusion Core) to fight Gateway level protoss tech. Its extremely dishonest. Now, when you add High Templars, the tech is a bit higher and hence Gateway+Templar beats Barracks+Starport Terran then gets ghosts So Gateway+Templars is even vs Barracks/Starport/Academy Now, you're getting upgrades Gateway+Templars is even with Barracks/Starport/Academy/Armory Seen side by side, both Terran AND Protoss have even strength armies and even levels of tech. Not a 1:1 ratio, but it's relatively even. But most people somehow pretend that a Terran getting Factory+Starport is "tier 1 tech" but a terran getting Factory+Starport+Fusion core is "tier 3" tech. The truth is that Factory/Starport is tier 2/3 tech and yet its treated as tier 1 tech by non-terrans. It's insulting. My bad,,, Forget to includes upgrades for terran. And by the way I didn't mean to insult anyone. I was just trying to figuring out what would be a balance match in mid-games with vs MMM. Sorry, I wasn't "exactly" venting at you but at TL in general. There's a lot of thrown around phrases like "Gateway units too weak" or "Terran pure tier 1, Marine/Maruader/Medivac" Here's what I've been mostly observing. Ling Speed and Stim neuter Protoss' units early on. Poking with the first 1-3 stalkers is really strong as they can kite marines/lings for days. Add 1-2 Zealots in the mix and suddenly even marauders can't touch you. But then the 4-6 minute mark hits and suddenly Protoss units gets gimped by ling speed/stim/shields/etc... and to make it worse, it's not until you get "tier 3" tech of Storm/Thermal Lance that you can finally match up. With good enough mechanics blink greatly closes the gap between gateway units and stim/metabolic boost--but one misclick/positional mistake and you lose 12-24 stalkers in the blink of an eye. The rhythm isn't fair. It takes about 2-3 minutes for a protoss player to get his stalkers out and he only has the "tier 1 advantage" for about 1-3 minutes before stim/metabolic boost finishes. That's a terrible. Since it will take protoss until about 8-10 minutes before they get their upgrades in which case protoss feels like they're units are useless for about 5-10 minutes while only feeling awesome with them for 2-3. Entertainment wise, that is a terrible ratio.
+1 Thanks That's actually what I wanted to say. There are 'gaps' in protoss game play when they are forced to turtle and wait... Warp prism doesn't help at this point simply because we cant make it yet!
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I say having warp prism start with the upgrade maybe a bit much.
What I suggest is making the upgrade cost 50 mins 50 gas in cyber core, available after u build a robo.
If this doesn' t change the dynamics, then implement the speed prism change.
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On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it
How are you being punished? Above silver league zerg is still the most played race on the ladder, which is a reasonable indication that zergs haven't got that much issues. Aditionally zerg won Code S and half of global WCS finalists are zerg.
I also experience now myself that my fun with MM+hellbat pushes against zerg is over and that I have to get a new strat: Initially the reaction against hellbats was whining that terran is OP and wishing you would get a disease, but right now zergs are figuring out that there is a third option: just mass roaches, possibly with a whole bunch of speedlings.
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On June 03 2013 16:56 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it How are you being punished? Above silver league zerg is still the most played race on the ladder, which is a reasonable indication that zergs haven't got that much issues. Aditionally zerg won Code S and half of global WCS finalists are zerg. I also experience now myself that my fun with MM+hellbat pushes against zerg is over and that I have to get a new strat: Initially the reaction against hellbats was whining that terran is OP and wishing you would get a disease, but right now zergs are figuring out that there is a third option: just mass roaches, possibly with a whole bunch of speedlings.
not true, in grandmaster and gold Protoss overtook zerg.
But yeah, zerg doesn't have a lot of issues. Game is pretty much balanced.
Mass roaches/roachhydra is shit against a bio/biomech Terran. Just scout it, ball up, amove.
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On June 03 2013 17:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 16:56 Sissors wrote:On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it How are you being punished? Above silver league zerg is still the most played race on the ladder, which is a reasonable indication that zergs haven't got that much issues. Aditionally zerg won Code S and half of global WCS finalists are zerg. I also experience now myself that my fun with MM+hellbat pushes against zerg is over and that I have to get a new strat: Initially the reaction against hellbats was whining that terran is OP and wishing you would get a disease, but right now zergs are figuring out that there is a third option: just mass roaches, possibly with a whole bunch of speedlings. not true, in grandmaster and gold Protoss overtook zerg. But yeah, zerg doesn't have a lot of issues. Game is pretty much balanced. Mass roaches/roachhydra is shit against a bio/biomech Terran. Just scout it, ball up, amove.
Yeah I noticed that, which is why I didn't say that in every league above silver zerg is most played, just the total 
But indeed, with the 3 WCS's have a toss, zerg and a terran winner it shows that while balance doesn't need to be perfect, it is in a fairly good state. Some individual units should probably still be adapted for the overall fun factor, but it should be done without really nerfing/boosting a race overall.
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On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units.
I dont understand your logic
Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all
equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal
The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is
Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here
But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force
You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts
And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned
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On May 29 2013 02:38 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 02:33 ReMiiX wrote:
I want medivacs to have speed boost all the time.
Seriously though, with the old buff on warp prism health this would be way way way to difficult to beat. Maybe if they dropped shield or health I could see the speed increase being fair. If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats. Imagine if the prism could heal the hellbats. That would be bat-shit crazyyyyy.
hahaha lol
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On June 03 2013 13:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it Each race has had its OP era.
Not for protoss unfortunately - unless you count 2 months as an era lol.
Anyways, I'm just wondering, how many people really play these test maps? Or is this all just for show that Blizzard cares about community feedback?
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On June 03 2013 13:12 Let it Raine wrote:
why am i being punished for zergs time of overpoweredness when i didnt even get to experience it
Just play WoL.
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On June 04 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. I dont understand your logic Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned
Because Zealots hurt marauders and stalkers kite marines?
In the early game, terran can't leave their base without either upgrades (shield/stim) or Medivacs (requires 300/200 worth of buildings to start one, usually built 2 at a time at 200/200)
Because walking out with naked troops will get them killed by stalker/zealots.
As upgrades come online, things change. As more tech becomes available, things change.
It costs 450/300 to get the tech needed for Ghosts + Medivacs and usually requires the 100/100 energy upgrade as well.
300/300 is all the tech buildings needed for templars.
There's a reason pro players can send out 1-2 stalkers in PvT and if the terran player tries to move out they lose 2-3 marines before running back home to 1 stalker. There's a reason 1Rax Marauder Pressure no longer works just by making 1 zealot and stalkers.
Bio needs their higher tier units to overcome gateway units. Gateway units then use higher tier units to even the score.
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On June 04 2013 08:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. I dont understand your logic Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned Because Zealots hurt marauders and stalkers kite marines? In the early game, terran can't leave their base without either upgrades (shield/stim) or Medivacs (requires 300/200 worth of buildings to start one, usually built 2 at a time at 200/200) Because walking out with naked troops will get them killed by stalker/zealots. As upgrades come online, things change. As more tech becomes available, things change. It costs 450/300 to get the tech needed for Ghosts + Medivacs and usually requires the 100/100 energy upgrade as well. 300/300 is all the tech buildings needed for templars. There's a reason pro players can send out 1-2 stalkers in PvT and if the terran player tries to move out they lose 2-3 marines before running back home to 1 stalker. There's a reason 1Rax Marauder Pressure no longer works just by making 1 zealot and stalkers. Bio needs their higher tier units to overcome gateway units. Gateway units then use higher tier units to even the score.
No!
You talk in circles, what do u not understand?
Its when protoss adds sentries, its the sentrie that makes the gateway tier1 destroy terran tier1
Pure stalkers,zealots die vs marins/marauders
You are mentioning now very different scenarios like marins dont move out vs 1-2 stalkers, if they do they die
This is somethinng entirely different, you are not staying on topic
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EPT
