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On June 01 2013 03:40 SC2John wrote:
Also, there is no reason why a speed prism will make all-ins stronger other than it forces players to be more on their toes (much like they have to do against speedvacs). Because phase mode and warping in still cost a lot of time, it's quite easy to shut down warp prism warp ins and eliminate any threat of warpins in the back + a bust at the front. No all-in in dependent on a speed prism and no all-in would really get any stronger other than catching players MORE unprepared (once again, though, if a player is unprepared, they'll lose to slow prisms too).
This keeps popping up from both sides, but one way to think about is this: What is the most important ingredient in protoss all-ins?
I would say the answer is - arguably - "Probe(s)."
This is why all match-ups involving P (including PvP), opposing player look for probes and hidden pylons. Often times, killing a probe accompanying a protoss army in the middle of the map ends or severely weakens protoss all-ins. If you think about that, then how speed prism can augment that specific weakness in protoss all-in is easier to understand. It also allows protoss to completely wall-off main base in certain circumstances during all-ins.
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On June 01 2013 22:57 wUndertUnge wrote:Guys, guys, guys! What IF they gave the warp prism a new ability that allowed it to temporarilly have increased speed, say for 8 seconds, or even to warp through space and time, almost like a blink, . BUT this ability didn't need to be upgraded AND it came with a cool down. We could call this ability, oh, let's call it Warp Prism Warp. Or Warp Prism Boost. 
I would like to see the animation of "warp through space and time!"
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After testing warp prism play a bit more I feel this is a bit too good for protoss.
The problem with this change is that it doesn't work in the way as intended, in PvZ warp prism all-ins will just get too strong imo. People who say the warp prism speed doesn't matter much for those all-ins are silly, first of all the higher speed just lets you hit earlier and makes it much easier to micro the prism during the all-in. It's basically move-warp-move-warp-move during the all-in with occasionally picking something up and the speed buff matters a lot.
Against terran the change is great but honestly I still don't see warp prism play getting lots of play there, the problem is still that vikings completely deter the warp prism play eventually.
I do think a buff is needed to the unit but more something that focusses on it's lategame use in PvT / PvP especially not some aerly game buff so much.
For example any of these:
- change the armor type to light or just none at all. Stalkers, vikings (and voidrays) don't do bonus damage against them anymore which are typically the units that keep it out of the game later on.
- put the speed upgrade at the cybercore. Giving it for free is a bit too much in PvZ I think but making speed prisms available without going the colossus route is a cool option, going colossi now just forces too much units that also counter the prism. Even immortal drops in PvP are gone because of the MsC basically
- increase the cargo a little to 12 pop for example, perhaps as an upgrade. It's always a bit of a deterrent for the warp in drops that you can't just pick up most stuff when you leave.
- increase the shields, decrease it's hitpoints. It's much more microable if it were 50/150 hp/shields for example
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On June 04 2013 09:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 08:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 04 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Why would removing either be a good thing?
Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. I dont understand your logic Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned Because Zealots hurt marauders and stalkers kite marines? In the early game, terran can't leave their base without either upgrades (shield/stim) or Medivacs (requires 300/200 worth of buildings to start one, usually built 2 at a time at 200/200) Because walking out with naked troops will get them killed by stalker/zealots. As upgrades come online, things change. As more tech becomes available, things change. It costs 450/300 to get the tech needed for Ghosts + Medivacs and usually requires the 100/100 energy upgrade as well. 300/300 is all the tech buildings needed for templars. There's a reason pro players can send out 1-2 stalkers in PvT and if the terran player tries to move out they lose 2-3 marines before running back home to 1 stalker. There's a reason 1Rax Marauder Pressure no longer works just by making 1 zealot and stalkers. Bio needs their higher tier units to overcome gateway units. Gateway units then use higher tier units to even the score. No! You talk in circles, what do u not understand? Its when protoss adds sentries, its the sentrie that makes the gateway tier1 destroy terran tier1 Pure stalkers,zealots die vs marins/marauders You are mentioning now very different scenarios like marins dont move out vs 1-2 stalkers, if they do they die This is somethinng entirely different, you are not staying on topic
The sentries simply make it impossible. Even numbers of zealot/stalker vs marine/marauder tips in favor of Protoss up until shield/stim/medivacs is finished.
Sentries mitigate the gap once those techs are reached (but still favors Terran)
Once Protoss gets their own tech, it pushes things back in their favor, in which case it means Terran needs even more tech.
As I posted earlier, the problem comes from the speed of tech availability. Stim/shields can be gotten early. Storm/thermal lance can be gotten late. This means stalker/zealot is only strong for about 1-2 minutes before stim finishes. But stim is strong for 5-8 minutes until storm/thermal lance finishes. This 1:5 ratio of unit dominance (in minutes of dominance) is what gives the feeling of weak tier 1 units.
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On June 04 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 09:22 Foxxan wrote:On June 04 2013 08:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 04 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. I dont understand your logic Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned Because Zealots hurt marauders and stalkers kite marines? In the early game, terran can't leave their base without either upgrades (shield/stim) or Medivacs (requires 300/200 worth of buildings to start one, usually built 2 at a time at 200/200) Because walking out with naked troops will get them killed by stalker/zealots. As upgrades come online, things change. As more tech becomes available, things change. It costs 450/300 to get the tech needed for Ghosts + Medivacs and usually requires the 100/100 energy upgrade as well. 300/300 is all the tech buildings needed for templars. There's a reason pro players can send out 1-2 stalkers in PvT and if the terran player tries to move out they lose 2-3 marines before running back home to 1 stalker. There's a reason 1Rax Marauder Pressure no longer works just by making 1 zealot and stalkers. Bio needs their higher tier units to overcome gateway units. Gateway units then use higher tier units to even the score. No! You talk in circles, what do u not understand? Its when protoss adds sentries, its the sentrie that makes the gateway tier1 destroy terran tier1 Pure stalkers,zealots die vs marins/marauders You are mentioning now very different scenarios like marins dont move out vs 1-2 stalkers, if they do they die This is somethinng entirely different, you are not staying on topic The sentries simply make it impossible. Even numbers of zealot/stalker vs marine/marauder tips in favor of Protoss up until shield/stim/medivacs is finished.
I do not agree at all with this. Even numbers means that protoss has an advantage (as long terran doesn't micro), right, but this also means that the army value is about twice the one of terran player.
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On May 30 2013 23:49 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 22:57 HolyArrow wrote:On May 30 2013 22:53 Crownlol wrote:
Odd idea, but this seems the right place for it. Why are Protoss t1 unit upgrades researched at a t3 building, while every other race can research their mechanic upgrades faster (stim/conc/ling speed/roachspeed)?
Currently, Protoss's biggest problem is weak Gateway units right? I believe this is universally agreed upon. Would moving Charge and Blink to Cybercore really be that OP? Stim and Conc shell are more gamechanging, and are researched from a t1.5/t2 building.
Blink might be a bit much, but putting Charge in Cybercore would encourage more aggressive play. At least Zealot drops would actually do some harassment. Yes, that would be quite OP. I'm a Toss player and that would pretty much break the game IMO. actually if warp gate tech was available later in some higher tech tree, but allowing toss to have blink/charger research, it might be interesting
Uh.... huh. Yeah actually I'd take that trade.
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On June 04 2013 23:38 SChlafmann wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 04 2013 09:22 Foxxan wrote:On June 04 2013 08:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 04 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They've done nothing of the sort.
Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. I dont understand your logic Pure marines alone eat zealots to breakfast, no gas invested at all equal minerals, marauders own stalkers. Whats left? Ghost vs templar=lets say its equal The sentire comes in hand, but the more time in game, the less useful it is Marauders+marines eat zealots/stalkers with slow. Without slow, iam pretty sure they still win but i can be at fault here But your logic says gateway units are not weak when in fact they are very weak. Equal cost, they melt to bio force You add hightemplars, terran adds ghosts And Slowzealots+storm vs bio with ghost and some medivacs MELT HARD, please explain, even with speed if ghost and hts get even they still get owned Because Zealots hurt marauders and stalkers kite marines? In the early game, terran can't leave their base without either upgrades (shield/stim) or Medivacs (requires 300/200 worth of buildings to start one, usually built 2 at a time at 200/200) Because walking out with naked troops will get them killed by stalker/zealots. As upgrades come online, things change. As more tech becomes available, things change. It costs 450/300 to get the tech needed for Ghosts + Medivacs and usually requires the 100/100 energy upgrade as well. 300/300 is all the tech buildings needed for templars. There's a reason pro players can send out 1-2 stalkers in PvT and if the terran player tries to move out they lose 2-3 marines before running back home to 1 stalker. There's a reason 1Rax Marauder Pressure no longer works just by making 1 zealot and stalkers. Bio needs their higher tier units to overcome gateway units. Gateway units then use higher tier units to even the score. No! You talk in circles, what do u not understand? Its when protoss adds sentries, its the sentrie that makes the gateway tier1 destroy terran tier1 Pure stalkers,zealots die vs marins/marauders You are mentioning now very different scenarios like marins dont move out vs 1-2 stalkers, if they do they die This is somethinng entirely different, you are not staying on topic The sentries simply make it impossible. Even numbers of zealot/stalker vs marine/marauder tips in favor of Protoss up until shield/stim/medivacs is finished. I do not agree at all with this. Even numbers means that protoss has an advantage (as long terran doesn't micro), right, but this also means that the army value is about twice the one of terran player.
1 zealot : 2 marines
1 stalker : 1 Marauder (stalker costs only 25/25 more)
In small numbers the marine maruaders are busy kiting zealots, stalkers pick them off. Warp ins means that both offensively and defensively the reinforcements will be even but Protoss trades zealots for marauders. Build up of stalkers eventually snowballs and Terran dies.
Hence why terran doesn't leave without upgrades/medivac
With stim and shields perfect forcefields "sometimes" counters it. But not enough to make it feel like an even fight.
Which means Terran turtles for about 3ish minutes until stim finishes, pushes out, and retreats back to medivacs.
Protoss, once stim shows up, turtles for 6-8 minutes as they build up storms/thermal lance.
That is a sucky trade-off.
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as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment
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On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment
that's actually a really interesting point, its small changes like these that are best for incorporating, just tweaks here and there, i like it!
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On June 05 2013 01:02 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment that's actually a really interesting point, its small changes like these that are best for incorporating, just tweaks here and there, i like it!
If it was good enough for ZvZ it's good enough for me 
+ Show Spoiler +Cannon/Spore/Turret buffs that is...
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On June 05 2013 01:02 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment that's actually a really interesting point, its small changes like these that are best for incorporating, just tweaks here and there, i like it!
Problem is that those small changes can have a huge impact. TvP pretty much revolves around terran ability to drop, a solid buff to cannons anti air will be a significant nerf, so it will have a large effect on balance.
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On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment
I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation.
Specifically talking about:
Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops)
Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground)
Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else)
So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases.
I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit.
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On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit.
The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
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On June 05 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 01:02 Pazuzu wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment that's actually a really interesting point, its small changes like these that are best for incorporating, just tweaks here and there, i like it! If it was good enough for ZvZ it's good enough for me + Show Spoiler +Cannon/Spore/Turret buffs that is...
Wouldnt it be easier to take out the stuff that "requires" these changes? If you buff the cannon against Medivacs the Spore Crawlers should get a buff too, right? Then those Spore Crawlers become too powerful against everything else (which the "vs bio air" buff limited to just the other Zerg air stuff) and thus non-Medivac/-Warp Prism air will need a buff again to make up for it ... which makes them tougher against regular ground units ... its an endless and rather stupid cycle of buffing and buffing.
Taking out the shitty stuff which makes things too good is the wiser choice ... stuff like regeneration and speed for Mutalisks, turbo-boost for Medivacs and healing for Hellbats. If you do that you dont need to add the speed boost to "give the Protoss something".
Blizzard seems to be in a "we have to add stuff for 'adding stuff's sake' " and that is the wrong reason to do it. "Don't fix it if it aint broken" would be a much better motto. The game will eventually reach a spot where no new unit will be added, so players and viewers should not be trained to expect changes just to "keep the game fresh".
On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
This has nothing to do with the Immortal and everything with the unit control and movement mechanics. The massively tight and easily controlled armies even make Stalkers rather weak in larger numbers when compared to simple basic units like Zerglings, Marines and Roaches. Even they *should be* tough enough to handle a few because of their relatively high cost per unit ... but they arent and thus they NEED the crutches of Forcefield and Blink to be somewhat cost effective (even though the skill requirement to be so is very high compared to those other units).
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On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield."
You might want to have a chat with Parting about Immortals, this is one that certainly does not need buffing
What concerns me is that Blizzard introduced a unit dedicated to harass for Protoss in HOTS and look to have abandoned it completely. I guess they have ran out of ideas.
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Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens
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On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens
Instant warp-in-storms are bad ... no matter if it is only half the energy. "See what happens" is something you can do in a beta, but not with big money tournaments going on constantly.
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On June 05 2013 03:42 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 05 2013 02:30 Big J wrote:On June 05 2013 00:07 WaZ wrote:
as high master/ ex gm i'd really like to see a solid buff only to cannon's anti air as it would help a lot vs mutas and the endless hellbat drops that I feel are currently tosses biggest problem in each matchup, its a more macro focused change, shouldn't effect the balance of the game at all other than those 2 scenarios, and wont be that game changing where mutas and hellbat drops wouldn't still be very effective it would just buy a little extra time vs mutas and make drops a little more of a commitment I don't think that adresses the problems. Well, maybe to a small decrease as it gives Protoss a little more room to invest into something else. But I think the problem is more that the midgame units that should allow Protoss to take combats against low-midtier T/Z, don't do so unless used for specific allins or when made in the exact right situation. Specifically talking about: Immortals (good vs roaches, OK vs hydras and marauders; weak against marines, zerglings, mutas, drops) Phoenix (good vs mutas, OK vs drops; bad against anything on the ground) Voidray (good vs roaches and marauders; bad against everything else) So Protoss seems to be left with rushing Colossus or Templar every single macro game. Which forces Protoss into extreme deathball play, as there is little resources left for anything else if you have to rush heavy T3 from 2 bases. I actually think they should heavily tweak the immortal, as it is too much of a onesided counter, instead of being a good allaround GtG unit. The immortal needs a LOT of love. its weaker than simply having 2 Stalkers most of the time since you lose speed and air attack for +30 against armored. That's not a good enough tradeoff to lose blink but gain "hardened shield." You might want to have a chat with Parting about Immortals, this is one that certainly does not need buffing What concerns me is that Blizzard introduced a unit dedicated to harass for Protoss in HOTS and look to have abandoned it completely. I guess they have ran out of ideas.
I'm not asking for a buff--I'm saying that the trade-off is insufficient. Parting is very good at the immortal sentry all-in, because he hits a timing where Zerg HAVE to lean on Roaches and Spine Crawlers to survive and hence he brings immortals since they counter that dependency.
I'm actually asking for a different immortal, not a better one.
I don't think immortal needs hardened shields--for example, and I wish they gave it something else instead of hardened shields. I don't like that have a slow pivot speed as well as no air attack--I think one or the other is a good enough drawback, but not both. I think instead of 20 vs unarmored and 50 vs armored a flat 35 would be better. It would be strong against lings, but not useless against roaches all while making roaches not be so raped by immortals.
Etc...
It's not about them not having ideas. Its about them getting stuck making the immortal an equivalent to the stalker when they shouldn't make that comparison at all.
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On June 05 2013 03:47 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Instant warp-in-storms are bad ... no matter if it is only half the energy. "See what happens" is something you can do in a beta, but not with big money tournaments going on constantly.
Insta-Storms were fun to watch though, I'd rather they weaken storm radius/damage than remove insta-storms. It made games exciting to watch.
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On June 05 2013 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:47 Rabiator wrote:On June 05 2013 03:45 ooozer wrote:
Bring back KA, lower storm DPS (4 seconds, 80 dmg, instead of 2 seconds 80 dmg) and see what happens Instant warp-in-storms are bad ... no matter if it is only half the energy. "See what happens" is something you can do in a beta, but not with big money tournaments going on constantly. Insta-Storms were fun to watch though, I'd rather they weaken storm radius/damage than remove insta-storms. It made games exciting to watch.
Games are exciting enough without having to watch that bullshit, lol. Storms are pretty good right now.
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EPT
