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This change is going to be pretty good. If you think about what it costs to actually harass with a warp prism its pretty costly. You have 200 minerals and precious build time from the robo bay. Not to mention that when you warp in their base, its those expensive protoss units. Also having your warp gates on cooldown puts you pretty vulnerable to drops yourself. If you can't warp in zealots, and are otherwise incapable of moving army into position in time, bio drop are really painful.
I think this will open up a new aspect of metagame in TvP where there will be alot of dropping and bluffing going on. On one hand you have terran drops doing a shitload of damage with almost nothing at home, and protoss deciding to dedicate a bunch of money to warp ins opening themselves up. It's also pretty easy for the terran army to retreat provided there medivacs aren't dead. Whereas if you warp in more than 4 units you can't escape with them all.
I haven't thought about how much it will affect PvZ. Then again, protoss doesn't seem to have much of a problem with zerg come late game with only their deathball. It will be interesting to see what becomes of zealot/DT harass with this new warpprism.. maybe even some risky immo drops taking out zerg tech.
seriously though, promoting battles to take place in multiple locations is what we want. It sets a higher skill ceiling.
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[QUOTE]On June 02 2013 06:48 Insoleet wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 01 2013 18:28 Snowbear wrote:
Blizzard needs to be careful with these changes. Remember the "zerg was underperforming at the highest level so we give queens more range"? It ruined the balance.
\EDIT : And comments like this makes me hope that this patch will be released.
[url=http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9165886752?page=6#115]http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9165886752?page=6#115[/url]
[/QUOTE]
Hey, that's one of my clan members! Go Medic!
Here's the text:
Hey Dayvie,
I am a mid masters protoss player. I played a handful of games against my terran clan mate last night testing the new warp prism. Here are a few of our thoughts on the change -
For reference: I used a standard 1g expand into robo in all of our games - he mostly used a reaper expand or hellion banshee opener.
- In the first few games I mostly used the warp prism like I do in the current mid game - attacking in one position with my main army and warping in another.
- As I got more comfortable, I began using the wp as an aggressive scouting tool (checking on 3rd timing, scouting his tech, etc.). It got to the point where I only needed 1 obs on his side of the map to keep track of his army, I kept 2 at home to spot drops.
- Ultimately I decided warp prism first out of the robo was most efficient. My terran friend suggested using the warp prism as an early game scouting tool instead of having the "element of surprise." For example, he did a standard widow mine drop into expo and my wp was at his base at the same time he dropped me. I deflected his mines (because I kept my 2nd obs at home), then I warped in 3 zealots immediately into his base after deflecting the attack. This sort of aggressive scouting was not possible in the current pvt early - midgame unless you went oracle (which puts you behind on robo tech + the possibility of not having detection at your base in case of mines).
Thoughts on balance: Is this imbalanced? I don't think so. My terran buddy and I were talking and we agreed that our games were more fun, dynamic. We even noticed that neither of us hit max in any of our 6-7 games we played. Our games were all about drops - I deflect his, then counter attack or scout with a prism. In the current metagame, it would have been I deflect his drops, then sit there and wait for the next one. The new warp prism speed opens up early-midgame aggression that makes the terran have to play safer and the protoss can play aggressive.
Terran Defense: It is worth noting, the terran does NOT have to *turtle* to defend against the new prism, my friend started putting 2 widow mines at common warp prism places, for example. He also suggested building a turret + leaving a couple marauders.
Alternative buffs: Some have suggested an oracle buff. I'll admit, the oracle right now is very difficult to make work in the current matchup. Turrets deny the oracle really hard. An acceleration increase definitely makes them easier to pick up scv kills, but they do not put pressure on the terran in the way the new prism will.
Army reinforcement: One more thing I want to touch on - I realized that if I had a couple cannons at home, I could have my army on the map more as long as the mama core was with me (I could recall in case there was a doom drop). The new prism makes this possible because I always have a presence on the map and a reliable way to reinforce in case of an engagement.
TL;DR - The warp prism change made games between me and my terran friend more exciting and dynamic (we never hit max). I used the new prism as an aggressive scouting tool and made the terran play safer. If he dropped me, I would drop him.
I hope this was helpful feedback - I'm looking forward to having a more aggressive option from the robo.
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I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up.
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On June 02 2013 14:49 wUndertUnge wrote: I used the new prism as an aggressive scouting tool ...
This is a really good point. I've always thought early prism play is great for scouting against zerg in lieu of eary obs because it threatens them and they have to build some serious AA if they really want to do anything but tickle it. However, I hadn't thought about it being fast enough to do the same vs terran.
You mentioned your opponent started building mines and turrets to deal with it, and this is a huge deal! Normally, terrans would have little use for turrets early and certainly wouldn't feel threatened enough to leave chunks of their army behind in a normal game. Mines are also pretty easy to see so this'll be quickly worked around by experienced players, I'd imagine.
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Would a metagame change scouting with hallucinated prisms create a back and forth laxness/tension as people go "just a hallucination scout, wtf!" Or they go "wtf! Drops!" And it just does to a turret.
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On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up.
They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)?
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On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)?
Why would removing either be a good thing?
Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break?
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On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break?
They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games.
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On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games.
They've done nothing of the sort.
Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play.
In TvP especially, this has meant that Terran literally attacks a protoss base from all sides in a dynamic and exciting back and forth that is kinetic.
Doesn't help much in PvZ unfortunately...
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The more I think about this the less I like this change. Terran needs to do damage or play greedy during the time Protoss is building up to take their third if at this timing you also have to deal with a speed prism I don't see how this doesn't turn this matchup heavily into Protoss favor since you cannot defend this without leaving units in your base constantly or building a full turret ring which is fine later in the game when speed warp prisms normally appear. If the warp prism was strictly a shuttle then maybe this would be fine but since it's basically a flying pylon I don't think this is a good idea at all.
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On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play.
See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness.
The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed.
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On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed.
I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion.
Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3"
Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields
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On May 29 2013 12:38 jalstar wrote:
HerO will win WCS NA and this change will be canceled, similar to how a balance change was canceled when Life won MLG.
Let's see it Blizzard.
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On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields
I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts
Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units
No, gateway units are not strong, i continue
When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all
Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots
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On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots
Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units.
Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac
Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units.
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On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots
Zealot need one more research. Why?
Marine-combat shield and stimpack
Zergling-movement and attack speed upgrades
Zealot-charge and... nothing.
(im pretty sure they wouldn't add anything till Lov though)
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On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units.
You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar...
And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars
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I like this change, and personally think its for the better for SC2 in the long run.
Even if this makes the game un-balanced for a time, It will be figured out and countered by Z and T.
To those discussing balance, I think It's a timing issue and not a damage issue for them (therefore, not a game long head-ache). Its the same as moving up the earliest warp prism timing currently by 10 seconds earlier, bringing it up to par (just barely and a bit more all-inny) with 3-4-phoenix and oracle harass options if we go Stargate.
I think this change can be meta-game shifting, but, it does not tip the balance points adversely. It will just move around the standard and non-standard BOs and army movement mechanics, but the tools to react and counter are in-place and this will not go out of hand.
Also, aside from the offensive implications, I have the opinion that we Protoss veto maps with far away thirds because of poor army mobility. I think WP speed makes taking the far away third an equal ordeal for all races, basing on the test map. I think next season maps wont feel so bad.
Another point, what else can be changed for SC2 anyway, given the current metagame? I mean if you look at the current game, across all races and all units not just Protoss and try to find what can be nerfed or buffed, you end up with the warp prism as a very good choice for a buff.
The unit now feels usefull, but not really OP.
If the change sticks and it makes Protoss too strong, blizz can buff some points to Z and T as well to counter. Or maybe nerf transform speed. But I definitely think the early mobility is good.
Multi-prong-drop-crazy-play-all-the-way for AALLL the races!
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On June 03 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 10:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 10:04 Foxxan wrote:On June 03 2013 07:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 06:54 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On June 03 2013 05:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 03 2013 03:47 Sabu113 wrote:On June 02 2013 19:02 MoonCricket wrote:
I'm not certain whether or not the Warp Prism buff addresses the metagame balance/imbalance or not, but I have to admit the Warp Prism buff is a lot of fun in PvT where Protoss can build the Warp Prism first, use it as a scout and then keep it in close proximity to the Terran's main base in order to threaten a Warp In. Protoss gets to build less Oberserves and spend less energy on Hallucinations, which translated to more Immortals and Force Fields respectively. The Terran player would typically buid 1 Viking to deal with it as soon as possible, which was one less Medivac to contend with. I also found microing a Warp Prism and Colossus to be a lot easier and think it'll encourage Protoss to use the unit as a drop ship more than as a remote Pylon in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with the over emphasis on drops with the Medivac speed buff and now the Warp Prism speed buff, but regardless of whether or not you remove the Medivac speed buff or add the Warp Prism speed buff bringing the drops into parity in PvT improves the match up. They'll never do this but do you think that would be enough to eventually allow them to get rid of planetary nexus (I hate PFs too for consistency)? Why would removing either be a good thing? Both creates points of defensive strength on the map and forces positional play. How is that bad other than they're hard to break? They also make harass more difficult, supporting one-battle games. They've done nothing of the sort. Nexus cannon has allowed Protoss to survive early game rushes and has created a normalcy of getting to mid-tier play. See, it might do this, but that actually sidesteps the real problem: P's T1 weakness. The reason they don't survive is because their T1 is trash. NC has unpleasant side effects that should be removed, but it does serve as a defensive power P needs to supplement their weak T1. If their T1 were stronger, NC could be removed. I completely disagree that somehow Protoss units are these terrible and useless things that don't work. I completely disagree with that notion. Protoss were more than able to survive the early game in WoL and have many times shown the strength and flexibility of their race. The problem with Protoss T1 is not the units, it's that the upgrades needed are in "T2 and T3" Ever had marines and marauders fight protoss compositions without stim/shields? Because it is a massacre. The problem with protoss in TvP is that their techlab costs 150/100 instead of 50/25. The units themselves are fine and zealot armies are damn near unstoppable at times during the lategame. The problem is that protoss don't have a way to trade tech for tech with speed/stim/Shields I disagree, infact i disagree with alot of your posts Terran doesnt fight without stim or whatnot because they get slaughtered by gateway units No, gateway units are not strong, i continue When terran have stim and whatnot with medivacs, now pure gateway units(except ht) stands no chance at all Pure zealots with speed and upgrades in midgame-lategame is not hard for a terran to deal with alone,infact now in hots they would massacre if protoss went pure zealots with hellbat support. Even without hellbats they rape pure zealots Marines + 200/200 in upgrades + 6-10 units that cost 100/100 each will beat pure gateway units. Because its more expensive than pure gateway units, because its more tech than pure gateway units. Storm (200/200) + Zealots beats marine medivac Why? Because add upgrades and high tier units and gateway units get good--just like bio units. You forgot that high templars need additional building and 50/150 for each high templar... And marines can split to dodge storm but zealots will evaporate before they will have chance to use their mighty swords... And by that time terrans wil have Ghosts and they are good counter for high templars
Medivacs need 2 buildings and cost 100/100 for each. What's your point?
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EPT
