On May 31 2013 13:14 BlackPride wrote: Not a good change. Won't impact Protoss lategame which is the biggest problem. By then they should already have warp-prism speed. They need to think of changes that will take away from the late game deathball.
Protoss has a really strong lategame though. As a Zerg player when it gets to the late-mid to late game I found that at max food with enough money and injects to COMPLETELY rebuild is the only way to beat it. I will usually lose all my army and toss will lose ~75% and they're not even always at max food yet. Plus Toss has sooooo many strong unit comps that they can shift to late game.
What I mean is that we need to detract from the boring deathball sort of play. I agree completely it is really really hard for Zerg to beat a maxed protoss army, but with swarm hosts and viper it is doable. The biggest problem is the boringness of deathball play, and an automatically speedy warp prism is not the way to do it.
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
I think the ideal outcome from this buff would be that protoss players start opening with warp prism, allowing them to skip stargate in pvz and changing pvt such that it no longer relies on protoss defending for 13 minutes then a-moving their deathball.
expand -> robo -> warp prism harass -> third base instead of expand -> random tech building -> all in
I agree that protoss need another avenue to do some horas in the mid game but I don't think this is the right answer. This will help the PvT situation but will make ZvP an utter nightmare. Prisim immortal all-in are already stupid effective and like a cancer on ladder.
Also look at how much the speedvac changed terran's matchups, if this goes through this is not a minor buff but a MAJOR buff as it will allow the prisim to scoot around doing endless free horras in ZvP, trasnform warp in more crap and if the going gets hard just bail out with no losses as the only option for zerg at that point to snipe the prisim is queens
Late game in ZvP once muta and or hydra are out fine, but mark my words this goes through the 9min all in timing pushes in PvZ will become much worse
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
hard enough to survive on just storm and templars as is. Storms, templars AND DT's would be tough early. Late in the game its all about Templar/Collossus switches with heavy zealot support.
BUT
I do like the direction you're going with this
The question is how do we make the other pieces fit?
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
hard enough to survive on just storm and templars as is. Storms, templars AND DT's would be tough early. Late in the game its all about Templar/Collossus switches with heavy zealot support.
BUT
I do like the direction you're going with this
The question is how do we make the other pieces fit?
Well, we're obviously not going to get a total redesign of Protoss, so may as well try to work with what is available. I think a good general way of changing Protoss is to nerf their powerful stuff a bit, but make it more available and/or cheaper.
So, if you take Charge for example, split that into two upgrades, both for 100/100, one of which increases movement speed, and can be researched from the Cyber Core, and the other grants the "Charge" ability and stays on the Twilight Council. Or Sentries, how about we cut the price down to 50/75, but put a 10 sec cooldown on FF - so in effect, you could only have as many Forcefields active on the field as you have Sentries in your army. They'd still be fine for defensive purposes, and would free up gas for more stuff, but an all-in couldn't just have 8 Sentries gather energy the whole game, and then spam them everywhere during an attack, like SoulTrain would.
Just make the race a bit less extreme. I'm eager to accept a Warpgate nerf in return for stuff becoming cheaper as well.
On May 29 2013 05:55 phyren wrote: I feel like the main idea is still being missed. Certainly this will help, but the big problem is that protoss still doesn't have very effective small size engagements, especially for harass. A warp prism full of zealots doesn't compare to a runby of a dozen lings or a medivac of mm. It costs the toss more and does less dmg. Of course, there is the possibility of warping in an entire army, but this increases the risk quite a bit and still avoids the idea of SMALL scale engagements.
Storm drops were the option in bw, but storm is a very high tech in sc2, especially because it is the norm to go towards stargate or robo tech first and invest heavily in those. Also, storm damage is lessened by enough that you usually wont kill more than 8-10 workers, which at this end game stage that you have all these techs, is nice but not as impactful as early game harass.
The oracle was supposed to take on this role, but it hasn't quite done so.
tl;dr. REAVERS!!
I've been reading pages and pages of comments, and this is the one I agree with the most. Very well said.
At the least, this buff could provide some better harassment options... only time and testing will tell if it is enough to make Protoss more harassment friendly. But to be sure, it is an important goal to be met for the game - it'll be more fun to play and watch.
On May 29 2013 05:55 phyren wrote: I feel like the main idea is still being missed. Certainly this will help, but the big problem is that protoss still doesn't have very effective small size engagements, especially for harass. A warp prism full of zealots doesn't compare to a runby of a dozen lings or a medivac of mm. It costs the toss more and does less dmg. Of course, there is the possibility of warping in an entire army, but this increases the risk quite a bit and still avoids the idea of SMALL scale engagements.
Storm drops were the option in bw, but storm is a very high tech in sc2, especially because it is the norm to go towards stargate or robo tech first and invest heavily in those. Also, storm damage is lessened by enough that you usually wont kill more than 8-10 workers, which at this end game stage that you have all these techs, is nice but not as impactful as early game harass.
The oracle was supposed to take on this role, but it hasn't quite done so.
tl;dr. REAVERS!!
I've been reading pages and pages of comments, and this is the one I agree with the most. Very well said.
At the least, this buff could provide some better harassment options... only time and testing will tell if it is enough to make Protoss more harassment friendly. But to be sure, it is an important goal to be met for the game - it'll be more fun to play and watch.
Well... there is a reason why 4 zealots are worse than 8 marines or 16 zerglings at killing probes....
Marines are ranged, so they can hit more for longer
Zerglings are fast, so they can keep up and chase down workers
Zealots are both slow and melee--terrible for workers.
The advantage is that if you bring 8 zealots to hit a base (as opposed to 8 marines) and have 2 Warp Prisms floating over them--T or Z have to turn most of the army around or assume a base trade. You can't stop that with a detachment of troops or 3-4 queens (especially if they have charge)
The problem is that that is boring. How do you play off of something that lopsided? Your choice is full retreat or base race. Those are terrible choices from a viewers standpoint.
I think this change should not be underestimated. This may make colossus, immortal and archon drops viable as a standard harass play, kind of like how we see terrans attempting a drop at least every game. Previously these kinds of drops were difficult because your prisms were slow, and it took a lot of time to reach the speed prism (especially when not going colossi). It even may make non-colossus openings better (like straight into ht or dt / archons) because harass becomes much better with those units.
Still, when going for colossus you had to research range first, and the speed upgrade wasn't free. In this situation, even if you did research speed by that time a lot of AA would be out - many vikings, possibly mutas, phoenix... higher numbers of hydras, marines and stalkers. You can now hit harass timings significantly faster (several minutes) and much safer because of the speed (still not 100% safe of course). Also many players did not get speed in the past, just because it is such a huge investment. Not so much the cost of the upgrade itself, but the costs of all the associated buildings.
If my theorycraft is correct protoss will have an easier time taking a third because the opponent is occupied with defending, or at least there will be the threat of harass. This would significantly reduce the amount of 2 base all ins. We currently see one of the hardest things for protoss is getting and holding a 3rd. Especially on some maps and against some kinds of play.
Also, this change does not have to cause a loss in robo production time. One can get a warp prism instead of an observer and scout with it quite well, while harassing at the same time.
On June 01 2013 06:39 H0i wrote: I think this change should not be underestimated. This may make colossus, immortal and archon drops viable as a standard harass play. Previously these kinds of drops were difficult because your prisms were slow, and it took a lot of time to reach the speed prism (especially when not going colossi). Still, when going for colossus you had to research range first, and the speed upgrade wasn't free. In this situation, even if you did research speed by that time a lot of AA would be out - many vikings, possibly mutas, phoenix... higher numbers of hydras, marines and stalkers. You can now hit harass timings significantly faster (several minutes) and much safer because of the speed (still not 100% safe of course).
Actually... I never thought about this till now (I should have)
If I scan a robo chrono-ing out an upgrade--my immediate assumption is Thermal Lance and I start massing Vikings.
However, if as you're getting thermal lance you also begin doing speed drops and force a turret or two, you can disrupt their ability to produce vikings and may even force them to spread them out too thinly. It allows Protoss to be aggressive while teching--which I love
On June 01 2013 04:42 Toadvine wrote: Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
There's a very good reason DTs are on a seperate tech. The Templar Archives only takes 50 seconds to build, that means the fastest possible detection (1 gate robo into obs) only comes 15 seconds sooner than a DT rush. If they did this any other build besides 1 gate robo or 1 gate stargate into oracle in PvP would automatically die to a DT rush.
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
hard enough to survive on just storm and templars as is. Storms, templars AND DT's would be tough early. Late in the game its all about Templar/Collossus switches with heavy zealot support.
BUT
I do like the direction you're going with this
The question is how do we make the other pieces fit?
Well, we're obviously not going to get a total redesign of Protoss, so may as well try to work with what is available. I think a good general way of changing Protoss is to nerf their powerful stuff a bit, but make it more available and/or cheaper.
So, if you take Charge for example, split that into two upgrades, both for 100/100, one of which increases movement speed, and can be researched from the Cyber Core, and the other grants the "Charge" ability and stays on the Twilight Council. Or Sentries, how about we cut the price down to 50/75, but put a 10 sec cooldown on FF - so in effect, you could only have as many Forcefields active on the field as you have Sentries in your army. They'd still be fine for defensive purposes, and would free up gas for more stuff, but an all-in couldn't just have 8 Sentries gather energy the whole game, and then spam them everywhere during an attack, like SoulTrain would.
Just make the race a bit less extreme. I'm eager to accept a Warpgate nerf in return for stuff becoming cheaper as well.
Sidenote: I've been thinking that charge needs some tweaking. I think allowing zealots to charge in any direction regardless of units would be a good change. In other words, it would be auto-cast like it is, but you could also target it on the ground in any direction. This would enable more mobile zealots with the ability to somewhat retreat after fights. It also allows more micro potential as the protoss can actually set up strong zealot flanks just before a battle begins.
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
Honestly, Protoss harass is quite shit. But that doesn't mean that the game needs more "I don't have X. Now I'm plainly dead."-stuff, aka even stronger DTs. What Protoss needs is a way to harass even though marines, turrets and spores are out. Well, phoenix/overlord dynamic kind of allows for that in ZvP. But in the later stages of the midgame and the lategame, there is nothing useful apart from plain "mass warp-in" stuff, which is pretty much the opposite of costefficient harass, and rather along the lines of "counterattack against an immobile army" type of play (Broodlords, Swarm Hosts).
Honestly, DTs are good harassment units, and you can get a lot done with them even if there are turrets out, quite similar to how Phoenix do damage in PvZ despite the Zerg making Spores. The problem is rather that investing in DTs in the early/mid game of PvT sets your tech back so much, that it necessitates they do the kind of damage that's only possible if the Terran is completely unprepared.
If DTs were unlocked by the Templar Archives, you could kinda use a WP (even a slow one) with 2-3 DTs in PvT the same way Phoenix are used in PvZ - snipe some addons and outlying buildings, delay a third base, maybe kill some workers when the Terran moves out, force some scans along the way, that kind of thing. And then if you could have Storm in time and just not die on 2 bases vs a Medivac push, you could be in decent shape depending on how much you accomplished, and the game could proceed further. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.
hard enough to survive on just storm and templars as is. Storms, templars AND DT's would be tough early. Late in the game its all about Templar/Collossus switches with heavy zealot support.
BUT
I do like the direction you're going with this
The question is how do we make the other pieces fit?
Well, we're obviously not going to get a total redesign of Protoss, so may as well try to work with what is available. I think a good general way of changing Protoss is to nerf their powerful stuff a bit, but make it more available and/or cheaper.
So, if you take Charge for example, split that into two upgrades, both for 100/100, one of which increases movement speed, and can be researched from the Cyber Core, and the other grants the "Charge" ability and stays on the Twilight Council. Or Sentries, how about we cut the price down to 50/75, but put a 10 sec cooldown on FF - so in effect, you could only have as many Forcefields active on the field as you have Sentries in your army. They'd still be fine for defensive purposes, and would free up gas for more stuff, but an all-in couldn't just have 8 Sentries gather energy the whole game, and then spam them everywhere during an attack, like SoulTrain would.
Just make the race a bit less extreme. I'm eager to accept a Warpgate nerf in return for stuff becoming cheaper as well.
Sidenote: I've been thinking that charge needs some tweaking. I think allowing zealots to charge in any direction regardless of units would be a good change. In other words, it would be auto-cast like it is, but you could also target it on the ground in any direction. This would enable more mobile zealots with the ability to somewhat retreat after fights. It also allows more micro potential as the protoss can actually set up strong zealot flanks just before a battle begins.
IIRC that capacity did exist, in a form, and as a bug in the early days of WOL. It was quickly patched out.
Edit/ It was when Zealots could target charge each other and then swiftly target the ground to extend charge and flank.
On May 29 2013 05:55 phyren wrote: I feel like the main idea is still being missed. Certainly this will help, but the big problem is that protoss still doesn't have very effective small size engagements, especially for harass. A warp prism full of zealots doesn't compare to a runby of a dozen lings or a medivac of mm. It costs the toss more and does less dmg. Of course, there is the possibility of warping in an entire army, but this increases the risk quite a bit and still avoids the idea of SMALL scale engagements.
Storm drops were the option in bw, but storm is a very high tech in sc2, especially because it is the norm to go towards stargate or robo tech first and invest heavily in those. Also, storm damage is lessened by enough that you usually wont kill more than 8-10 workers, which at this end game stage that you have all these techs, is nice but not as impactful as early game harass.
The oracle was supposed to take on this role, but it hasn't quite done so.
tl;dr. REAVERS!!
REAVERS!!! I miss u that was actually the main reason why I betrayed mighty brotosses but submit myself to the Swarm!!! I hope I can see some units that behave like my cute reaver (something that is very slow and low health but deals massive damage. Colossi have already taken the role but not like my cute reaver...) Anyway, back to the topic, I hope some day the Blizzard will deal with the main concerns of players before LOV comes out.
On June 01 2013 03:25 Xacez wrote: Why not attempt a buff to Dark Templars instead?
Don't even try man, you'll open the floodgates of Terran tears, and let me tell you, those things do not close easily.
Honestly though, I'd take a major nerf to Colossus if I got DTs from Templar Archives back.
I don't mind Dark Shrine if it only had a fucking upgrade attached to it. I hate empty buildings without buttons or functions. Even the fucking supply depot has a button I can push!
Honestly, that bugs the heck out of me. Give it an extremely niche upgrade that we see once every 200 games just so poor Waffles and Magpie can sleep again at night
EPT
that was actually the main reason why I betrayed mighty brotosses but submit myself to the Swarm!!! I hope I can see some units that behave like my cute reaver (something that is very slow and low health but deals massive damage. Colossi have already taken the role but not like my cute reaver...) Anyway, back to the topic, I hope some day the Blizzard will deal with the main concerns of players before LOV comes out.
