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On May 29 2013 12:31 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 12:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 29 2013 12:22 Falling wrote:
You can't just look at dps, you have to look at where the damge occurs. Front-loaded burst damage better allows units to be dropped off and picked up continually. Although I'm pretty sure that BW storms do more damage. But SC2 storms have been balanced around the ease of mass storms rather than balanced around burst damage on a couple storms. Easy carpet-bombing the entire screen needs the damage diffused to be balanced. But it doesn't lend itself as much for harass where you need concentrated burst damage in very specific areas. They are both very comparable when it comes to dropping mineral lines, they both deal damage in .5 second intervals so it isnt any more bursty in BW. There are things that made BW storm feel much better though: 1) Shuttle dropping speed and HT that always had the energy to storm 2) The radius meant that workers near the edge still took more damage 3) Game speed 4) The fact that you couldnt select ALL of your workers with a single mouse drag to save them I mean, if you buff storm damage or radius even a little in SC2, then storm drops would be OP and would always kill the entire mineral line if they were able to get out of the WP. EDIT: Dont forget about the era of khaydarin amulet in SC2, storm drops were much more prevalent and were usually pretty good. The removal of that basically removed storm drops in SC2 from what I can tell. I don't think storm drops becoming OP would be the problem. HT's are expensive (although the rate of income income in SC2, maybe losing 2HT isn't such a big deal) and you actually need to get the warpprism into the worker line. The opponent has a chance to pull workers or kill wp. And it's mid to late game harass, not early game timings. If anything, it would be a plus with more harass happening (which in my opinion is always a good thing. The big problem would be back on the main battlefield because of smart-casting.
Definitely agree.
I do like the concept of having WP's enable the harass though. Either via longer warpin time but more starting energy or through the energize ability somebody else mentioned. Speed prisms arent the answer and I am unsure of what buffs you can give to units without imbalancing something earlier in the game.
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HerO will win WCS NA and this change will be canceled, similar to how a balance change was canceled when Life won MLG.
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On May 29 2013 02:46 Supah wrote:
May end up de-stabilizing an already volatile MU in PvP though, think about Immortal/Warp Prism harass and how much stronger it will be when you don't even need a Robo Bay, much less the upgrade.
Did you ever play Pvp in BW?
Immortal drops would be a great thing for the match-up IMO.
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On May 29 2013 12:31 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 12:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 29 2013 12:22 Falling wrote:
You can't just look at dps, you have to look at where the damge occurs. Front-loaded burst damage better allows units to be dropped off and picked up continually. Although I'm pretty sure that BW storms do more damage. But SC2 storms have been balanced around the ease of mass storms rather than balanced around burst damage on a couple storms. Easy carpet-bombing the entire screen needs the damage diffused to be balanced. But it doesn't lend itself as much for harass where you need concentrated burst damage in very specific areas. They are both very comparable when it comes to dropping mineral lines, they both deal damage in .5 second intervals so it isnt any more bursty in BW. There are things that made BW storm feel much better though: 1) Shuttle dropping speed and HT that always had the energy to storm 2) The radius meant that workers near the edge still took more damage 3) Game speed 4) The fact that you couldnt select ALL of your workers with a single mouse drag to save them I mean, if you buff storm damage or radius even a little in SC2, then storm drops would be OP and would always kill the entire mineral line if they were able to get out of the WP. EDIT: Dont forget about the era of khaydarin amulet in SC2, storm drops were much more prevalent and were usually pretty good. The removal of that basically removed storm drops in SC2 from what I can tell. I don't think storm drops becoming OP would be the problem. HT's are expensive (although with the rate of income in SC2, maybe losing 2HT isn't such a big deal) and you actually need to get the warpprism into the worker line. The opponent has a chance to pull workers or kill wp. And it's mid to late game harass, not early game timings. If anything, it would be a plus with more harass happening. In my opinion that is always a good thing. The big problem would be back on the main battlefield because of smart-casting.
Rain used storm drop against terran quite a number of times and it is one reason why he was so good at PvT. You just drop 2 hts and if the terran pulls back the scvs, you got 2 zealots to do damage and just storm the choke point where the terran get the army up to defend OR you just pick up and leave.
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how about after you unload in a buffed speed warp prism, zealots do their dance before they can attack?
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Awesome change. Looking forward to it.
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Harken Ye Gods of Mount Blizzard, Creators Of All The Universe,
We mighty Protoss require absolutely no buff to our Warp Prism abilities, they are perfect as they are. We have been defeated ingloriously time after time since you banished our shield generator technology. O sweet merciful Gods of Mount Blizzard, I beseech you, return to us our cherished shield generators, and we shall forever vanquish the filthy Zerg from the universe. The Terrans with their crude Medivac technology laugh at our backwardsness in battle. Even the savage Zerg can transfuse their injured units, and regenerate precious hitpoints. Why are we Protoss, faithful servants of the Khala, so disgraced on the field of battle unnecessarily.
O mighty Gods of Mount Blizzard, hear my cries!
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Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well
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Edited to clarify.
Faster warp prism all game doesn't help toss mid and late game.
They don't really need a buff late game because assuming they make it there toss is extremely strong. Where they are weak is if they try to go into a macro game in the mid game. Faster warp prisms only make toss mid game better if something fairly cheesy they did earlier with warp prism speed put them in a spot it's their game to lose.
Versus making a slight buff test to something like the oracle, which isn't a great late game unit but if scouted is a lack luster harassment unit in the mid game. Slightly more shields or hp to the oracle would probably be 100% more useful overall for protoss players then another buff to early/mid game all ins which is all the prism would likely end up being useful at.
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On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well
A lot of people were questioning speed boost medivacs then and still are now. I dont know what youre drinking. Protoss is so far from figured out it is funny, but you can continue to believe that your race is so terrible when there is really pretty much no evidence agreeing with you. The game is really well balanced.
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On May 29 2013 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well A lot of people were questioning speed boost medivacs then and still are now. I dont know what youre drinking. Protoss is so far from figured out it is funny, but you can continue to believe that your race is so terrible when there is really pretty much no evidence agreeing with you. The game is really well balanced.
Go crunch out the statistics of Protoss players winrates vs Zerg/Terran without relying on coinflip all ins and tell me Protoss is on the same level as both Zerg and Terran, the fact that we have guys like Creator and even Rain to some degree getting manhandled every now and than by what we would assume are inferior opponents just showcases my belief. Honestly I'm not even calling for any buffs but more so just stating that people have such a warped and distorted view on Protoss that it's aggravating/frustrating to see the amount of ignorance and lack of understanding against Protoss.
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Anyone saying protoss is "the most powerful race in the game" is blind, biased, angry on the ladder, or all three. Anyone who is able to read knows that protoss is the worst performing race at the top levels.
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On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well
well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get.
there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play.
same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea.
i'm all for buffing what's actually possible with protoss but also all for making protoss take actual skill as well.
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On May 29 2013 13:13 AstroPegnuin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well A lot of people were questioning speed boost medivacs then and still are now. I dont know what youre drinking. Protoss is so far from figured out it is funny, but you can continue to believe that your race is so terrible when there is really pretty much no evidence agreeing with you. The game is really well balanced. Go crunch out the statistics of Protoss players winrates vs Zerg/Terran without relying on coinflip all ins and tell me Protoss is on the same level as both Zerg and Terran, the fact that we have guys like Creator and even Rain to some degree getting manhandled every now and than by what we would assume are inferior opponents just showcases my belief. Honestly I'm not even calling for any buffs but more so just stating that people have such a warped and distorted view on Protoss that it's aggravating/frustrating to see the amount of ignorance and lack of understanding against Protoss.
A timing attack is not a coinflip all in. The reason timing attacks (or coinflip allins as you call them) are so strong for protoss is because of warp in. If you want to make protoss less reliant on such timing attacks you have to change the mechanics of the race altogether. Protoss has ALWAYS been this way in SC2. I have seen glimpses of protoss using a style that is a bit more reactionary lately (cant remember which protoss, but I believe it might be Parting) so there is still a lot to be explored though.
On May 29 2013 13:16 xAdra wrote:
Anyone saying protoss is "the most powerful race in the game" is blind, biased, angry on the ladder, or all three. Anyone who is able to read knows that protoss is the worst performing race at the top levels.
Citation needed, and also context of how much worse they are.
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On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea.
Saying Protoss mechanics are easy is an example of peoples stupid ignorance to the race, Honestly I'm just going to stop responding because I'm guessing 95% of people on this forum aren't even low masters and I really doubt I will ever convince anyone otherwise despite the results of Protoss over the last 3 years being by large and far inferior to both Terran and Zerg.
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On May 29 2013 13:20 AstroPegnuin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea. Saying Protoss mechanics are easy is an example of peoples stupid ignorance to the race, Honestly I'm just going to stop responding because I'm guessing 95% of people on this forum aren't even low masters and I really doubt I will ever convince anyone otherwise despite the results of Protoss over the last 3 years being by large and far inferior to both Terran and Zerg.
I have been masters, but citing league for experience and ability to make claims is a pretty huge fallacy since masters isnt that great. I am not agreeing with him that protoss mechanics are easy, but just that your remarks are based on nothing but your own personal opinion and you are trying to pull a league card that is not valid.
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On May 29 2013 13:17 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 13:00 AstroPegnuin wrote:
Love the double standards how people think it was okay to have speed on Medivacs for free with no cost, I even made the comparison of it being like giving Warp Prisms speed back than. Stop complaining and let blizzard buff stuff to make it strong so we can move towards a more Brood War style of game (Which is a good thing trust me).
also please try and play straight up macro style of Protoss and see how frustrating it is to play such a agonizing race that relies on build order advantages to actually compete against people you are mechanically better than, you may actually realize that contrary to the believe we do have to micro as well well you might think that you are mechanically superior to someone but in fact you might be much worse but achieving similar results because protoss mechanics are the easiest by a fucking landslide. you actually have an advantage by playing protoss outside of top master/gm level play simply because your race is so easy and at that level mechanics are actually a big part of win or loss. that's what people don't seem to get. there is a difference between difficulty to play a race and actual game balance, but it's correlated at suboptimal levels of play. same reason why WOL terran has never performed as great as in korea outside of korea. i'm all for buffing what's actually possible with protoss but also all for making protoss take actual skill as well.
i sorta agree, protoss needs more things to micro. Deathball 1a gets old
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EPT
