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On May 29 2013 15:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:34 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Granted it was WoL, but the longest GSL game (I think that record still stands, it might not), was a TvP with the Terran smashing the Protoss in the late-game. Smash. Not just beat. There was nothing the Protoss late-game army could do. This is still the case. Ghost/viking is still pretty much unbeatable. Granted, that scenario is really really rare and HerO had the right idea to transition into carriers but made the switch too late and kept getting his 6th base nuked on Daybreak (from Byun's main, which is terrible map design). So there might be something to do there.
I don't think Carriers make the difference with such high fully upgraded viking numbers. Hero is transitioning from a primarily ground army into un-upgraded air. Maybe Tempests in combination with Templars, Colossi, and Carriers could beat that composition (and lmfao at how much gas that composition costs).
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition.
You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. And if if there was - you also want protoss to warp in everywhere - which means your main army supply is lowered - which means Ghost/viking kills you even harder. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. He had missile turrets and planetaries everywhere with an unbeatable army sitting behind it.
Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games.
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What about our money-wasting nydus worm and his stolen brothers... 
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On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 14:57 hli wrote:
so protoss can have basically medivac boost speed without a cool down, with the ability to warp in with 20 gateways in the late game? forcing an already heavy mineral intensive bio composition to be EVEN weaker against the op late game of protoss by forcing the T to build turret rings? Wtf? That's without mentioning the plethora of all-ins that'll be built around this change... and I'm sure Zergs have something to say about it too. If you boost the speed a little bit, it's understandable.. the upgraded speed.... nothin can catch it. ? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 29 2013 06:13 Reborn8u wrote:
I think stalkers are in need of a buff. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition.
The Hero vs. Byun game happened something like half a year ago man. Not 2-3 years ago.
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As a protoss I think this ISN'T TOO FAIR to have this for free (same with terran mdv-speed).
What I would do is to move the speed upgrade to Cybernetics Core with reduced price (50/50?).
Another thing is to getting rid of upgrades instead of adding them - I'm for adding more options, rather than granting them upfront. Maybe adding extra haul space upgrade would be something worth considering too?
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On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:On May 29 2013 15:00 padfoota wrote:
[quote]
? Toss already had that option late game back in WoL dude. Why do you think everyone was allining them at the 15 minute mark? Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 06:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
[quote]
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Holy fucking noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless. Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games.
Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. Byun also doesnt happen to be the current top terrans although hes close.
You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_-
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:49 pieroog wrote:
As a protoss I think this ISN'T TOO FAIR to have this for free. Yes this is a great for us, but not very fair for other races (same with terran mdv-speed).
What I would do is to move the speed upgrade to Cybernetics Core with reduced price (50/50?).
Another thing is to get rid of upgrades instead of adding them - I'm for adding more options, rather than granting them upfront. Maybe adding extra haul space upgrade would be something worth considering?
That really wouldn't change anything though. 50/50 is worth it every time and at cybercore I'll have that by the time the prism comes out.
And the haul space has never been an issue since protoss can warp in anyway
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so why all that buff to terran and protoss drop which were used all the time before buffs too when zerg drop is still ____FUCKING USELESS AND NOBODY USES IT EVER_____. why does it have to cost 300/300 (overlord speed) and like 20 min research time and lair tech?
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On May 29 2013 15:49 pieroog wrote:
As a protoss I think this ISN'T TOO FAIR to have this for free. Yes this is a great for us, but not very fair for other races (same with terran mdv-speed).
What I would do is to move the speed upgrade to Cybernetics Core with reduced price (50/50?).
Another thing is to get rid of upgrades instead of adding them - I'm for adding more options, rather than granting them upfront. Maybe adding extra haul space upgrade would be something worth considering?
Maybe 50/50 is way too cheap.
Since it came down to earlier tech, it should be at least 100/100 or higher (because you already saves money for robo bay)
New ideas sounds interesting, but I'm not quite sure Blizzard would ever do that before the Lovs...
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On May 29 2013 15:52 willstertben wrote:
so why all that buff to terran and protoss drop which were used all the time before buffs too when zerg drop is still ____FUCKING USELESS AND NOBODY USES IT EVER_____. why does it have to cost 300/300 (overlord speed) and like 20 min research time and lair tech?
Because you guys have nydus :/
I always though it was funny that zergs were essentially using their supply depots to drop stuff.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:
[quote]
Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless.
Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_-
I never said it's easy, lol. It is hard. A 3/3 timing with templar and colossi is still incredibly strong. But I mean, a mass bio/viking timing before storm is also incredibly strong which means it's incredibly hard to get to that lategame army if you're under heavy pressure. Your argument works both ways but it doesn't change the fact that Ghost/Viking murders everything. And a serious LOL if you think that Kespa terrans couldn't do an extremely turtly style like Byun's.
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Can't approve of this. I hope it doesn't get passed the beta stage. They are already very powerful considering it's a moving pylon with your army, that can "carry" (warp) any gateway unit in any amounts depending on how many gates are. It does it's job well enough. I don't want to have min3 immortals in my base with sentries blocking off ramps and that can escape blindling fast via warp prism.
Reward brain-usage not laziness.
What's next, overlord fart-nitro upgrade? Oh yea coming to this what is the very least drop-prone race in this game? Oyea zerg. U rarely see them and when u do 90% of times it's a desperation move that ends up in a loss. Sry but your "not strong enough" pointed in the wrong direction.
Whoever is a real pro protoss player knows how to play that race with all it's pluses and minuses. Latest results show this pretty well i say. As do zergs i am not a hypocrite.
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On May 29 2013 15:52 willstertben wrote:
so why all that buff to terran and protoss drop which were used all the time before buffs too when zerg drop is still ____FUCKING USELESS AND NOBODY USES IT EVER_____. why does it have to cost 300/300 (overlord speed) and like 20 min research time and lair tech?
That's What I wanted to say!!!! My nydus worms too!!! Its way too expensive
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On May 29 2013 15:53 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:52 willstertben wrote:
so why all that buff to terran and protoss drop which were used all the time before buffs too when zerg drop is still ____FUCKING USELESS AND NOBODY USES IT EVER_____. why does it have to cost 300/300 (overlord speed) and like 20 min research time and lair tech? Because you guys have nydus :/
haha nydus is even worse.
it can be killed by fucking workers before it goes down and it needs like 10 min to pop out 10 lings (lings are the only unit worth 'dropping')
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On May 29 2013 15:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:
[quote]
Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it?
The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man.
[quote]
Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink.
Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game.
With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_- I never said it's easy, lol. It is hard. A 3/3 timing with templar and colossi is still incredibly strong. But I mean, a mass bio/viking timing before storm is also incredibly strong which means it's incredibly hard to get to that lategame army if you're under heavy pressure. Your argument works both ways but it doesn't change the fact that Ghost/Viking murders everything.
It murders in a straight up fight 100% Yes I know. Its like getting mass infestors - where small amounts require timing and position to get the key fungal/storm/EMP off, massing ghosts you just e and fuck everything up and cloak while the vikings make sure theres really nothing that can see the invisible army. Its ridiculously expensive to get to and somewhat flips the role for terran and protoss - terran becomes the one that needs to turtle heavily once they begin to transition, and its up to the protoss to make sure the terran cannot get there by constant aggression.
Getting there is a gigantic problem. Bio viking timing at the 14 minute mark right before storm and bringing about 30 scvs is super easy ~_~
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On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:03 Brian333 wrote:
[quote]
Except any decent Zerg? Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it? The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man. On May 29 2013 15:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
They are actually. Stalkers are probably the one basic unit for all the three races that transitions into a lategame scenario the worst. Marines, marauders? Useful. Lings, banelings? Useful. Zealots? useful. Stalkers? Completely and utterly useless.
Also no idea why I saw this post from ages ago. Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink. Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game. With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_-
If you watch Byun, then you would know how. You position your army to have the concave advantage, turtle behind Planetaries and nuke to block Protoss from engaging. And why don't Terrans do it more often? Because multi-pronged drop and MMM+Hellbat is enough to win with against every Protoss not named Rain and Parting. This goes back to your asininely biased point about P skill ceiling vs. T / Z skill ceilings.
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On May 29 2013 15:55 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:05 padfoota wrote:
[quote]
Because zergs had THE MOST BROKEN death ball comp back in WoL so that they didnt need to give a shit about it?
The guy was speaking from a terran perspective man.
[quote]
Have you ever played BW? Yes? Imagine if dragoons had blink.
Plus you listed out the exact problem of why stalkers dont need a buff. They are completely viable and probably decent/reasonably strong early game in small skirmishes, while having Blink allowed them to be good pre deathball scale supply. If you buffed them, not only will they be ridiculously strong early game, but they'll be viable as a unit to mass by itself late game too. Along with all the other late game units toss has? I dont think so man. RIght now stalkers late game is to be the main anti air unit, while being a decent harrass/map control unit early game.
With the amount of problems terrans are having vs blink stalker mothership allins I imagine a stalker buff would make the terran community go nuts lol I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_- If you watch Byun, then you would know how. You position your army to have the concave advantage, turtle behind Planetaries and nuke to block Protoss from engaging. And why don't Terrans do it more often? Because multi-pronged drop and MMM+Hellbat is enough to win with against every Protoss not named Rain and Parting. This goes back to your asininely biased point about P skill ceiling vs. T / Z skill ceilings.
Fine. I apologize and that back what I said about the skill ceiling.
Regarding Byun, I already know how, it was already known within the terran community how, it was always the problem of getting there.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:55 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_- I never said it's easy, lol. It is hard. A 3/3 timing with templar and colossi is still incredibly strong. But I mean, a mass bio/viking timing before storm is also incredibly strong which means it's incredibly hard to get to that lategame army if you're under heavy pressure. Your argument works both ways but it doesn't change the fact that Ghost/Viking murders everything. It murders in a straight up fight 100% Yes I know. Its like getting mass infestors - where small amounts require timing and position to get the key fungal/storm/EMP off, massing ghosts you just e and fuck everything up and cloak while the vikings make sure theres really nothing that can see the invisible army. Its ridiculously expensive to get to and somewhat flips the role for terran and protoss - terran becomes the one that needs to turtle heavily once they begin to transition, and its up to the protoss to make sure the terran cannot get there by constant aggression. Getting there is a gigantic problem. Bio viking timing at the 14 minute mark right before storm and bringing about 30 scvs is super easy ~_~
Yeah I know. But you've been talking about a protoss composition of storm/archon/colossus WITH high tech stargate units AND warpins to harass. Let me tell you, getting two of those is already expensive as hell. Adding in stargate units makes it an all or nothing army that can't be replenished - which honestly terran can easily beat considering there won't be many SG units as you essentially have to be at full force all the time so you don't die to Ghost/viking.
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On May 29 2013 15:55 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 15:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:50 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:44 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:29 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 29 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote:On May 29 2013 15:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying straight up buff stalker stats. I'm saying maybe give stalkers another upgrade at whatever, robo bay or something. I understand that stalkers are extremely strong in all ins/cheese or (very) small skirmishes early but they become entire useless very quickly. Stalkers are not your main anti air in the lategame, neither against zerg nor against terran. Storm fills that role as stalkers are simply too bad to be used in fights. Even if you do snipe all the vikings, your army will still not have enough DPS to melt a bioball with lots of medivacs because stalkers don't actually have DPS. What I'm suggesting is give them an upgrade that makes them better in the lategame. In lategame PvT of SC2, dragoons with blink wouldn't be too strong. When I say anti air I mean they defend air units from killing the collosis -_-....They arent supposed to melt armies when you have the other units doing that job already. Sure they kill all the vikings but cannot melt the bio army - THATS WHAT THE AOE UNITS ARE FOR. But that's the thing, you can't have all of these things at once. If you have a stalker/zealot/colossus army you either don't have enough stalkers to kill the vikings in time or you don't have enough zealots to tank or you don't have enough colossi to kill the bio. That's why you remove stalkers from your composition and replace them with templar and archons. Because they a) zone and kill vikings and b) actually do something against the bio army. You mean they melt the fuck out of the bio army.Yes, you cant have all these things at once, but now you are missing the point. Protoss doesnt need more late game options. Every single protoss loss is by being killed or pressured heavily early - mid game. When asking for a stalker buff its really to buff the early-mid game point where the protoss is actually having a problem with, not the late game part. Well I guess you've never seen a ghost/viking/bio army demolish a protoss. And I mean an upgrade at say robo bay would allow them to be buffed midgame if deemed necessary. Ive seen it about 2-3 years ago when every toss was still balling up their entire army for a nice EMP blanket while having absolutely no better deathball army. Ive seen the whole snipe obs and walk around with 20 invisible blackops units and emp everything then just rollface mode, which was already an old strat one year ago that didnt work once protoss brought more than one observer to the field and stopped balling while having stalkers zone out the vikings, while also dropping with the warpprism forcing the mid map stale mate to become an all in from terran or give up map control. Ghost viking bio is NOT a cheap composition to have, especially after the changes to EMP radius and cost. Massing ghosts from terran would mean toss on HotS should have stargate units by now - which was what happened in the parting vs flash game. Flash failed to kill parting early on, floated too much money and decided instead to opt for a late game where parting simply started sieging the fuck out of the terran;s tier 1-2 units with super late game air army Protoss CANNOT lose late game vs terran if toss himself has the late game (triple aoe + stargate units) composition. You're delusional if you think that protoss can simply do that. There isn't enough gas on the map for an army like that. Ghost/viking still beats everything. HerO vs Byun on Daybreak, no protoss in the world could've beaten Byun. Also Flash played fucking terribly against Parting in both games. Byun happens to be the only terran Ive seen able to do that mass ghost viking style properly. I watch his streams. I dont believe it when I see it and I dont even bother trying to use it anymore. You're also delusional if you think its easy to transition into mass ghost viking without dying to heavy pressure -_- I never said it's easy, lol. It is hard. A 3/3 timing with templar and colossi is still incredibly strong. But I mean, a mass bio/viking timing before storm is also incredibly strong which means it's incredibly hard to get to that lategame army if you're under heavy pressure. Your argument works both ways but it doesn't change the fact that Ghost/Viking murders everything. It murders in a straight up fight 100% Yes I know. Its like getting mass infestors - where small amounts require timing and position to get the key fungal/storm/EMP off, massing ghosts you just e and fuck everything up and cloak while the vikings make sure theres really nothing that can see the invisible army. Its ridiculously expensive to get to and somewhat flips the role for terran and protoss - terran becomes the one that needs to turtle heavily once they begin to transition, and its up to the protoss to make sure the terran cannot get there by constant aggression. Getting there is a gigantic problem. Bio viking timing at the 14 minute mark right before storm and bringing about 30 scvs is super easy ~_~
please don't compare fungal and emp/storm. fungal does nothing except hold stuff in place now.
also please stop talking about theoretical super endgame compositions - those have NOTHING to do with actual game balance.
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On May 29 2013 15:24 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Anyway back to warp prism buffs, I do think it's worth testing and protoss should have something that really rewards skill like that. Protoss should never catch medivacs either unless the terran screws up so it's only fair to give protoss something similar. Can't be that hard to make a viking or two if you really feel like the warp prism is causing too much trouble.
The problem I can see are PvZ all ins though. Each one of those is gonna have a prism now.
but its 200 minerals for a dropship that can warp in a bunch of units and no terran unit can catch it other then stim marines but they cant fly.
200 minerals for something like this is absurd
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EPT
