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Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1
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On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1
The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job.
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On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job.
The game was more balanced at the end of WOL than it is now. February 2012 was probably the closest it was to balanced in general.
http://aligulac.com/reports/
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On May 10 2013 06:30 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job. The game was more balanced at the end of WOL than it is now. February 2012 was probably the closest it was to balanced in general. http://aligulac.com/reports/
You mean the month that Zerg won its 3rd straight GSL and in a ZvZ finals to boot? Also, that graph is so bad. It combines Foreigner and Korean (something that's never done) and includes qualifiers (something that's also never been done)
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It's great that they're taking a more pragmatic approach to balance, making sure pros have time to explore different plays.
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On May 10 2013 06:30 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job. The game was more balanced at the end of WOL than it is now. February 2012 was probably the closest it was to balanced in general. http://aligulac.com/reports/
You just take 1 spot and choose how balanced the game is ? Even if the last three months had way more imbalance stats ? C'mon you can't be serious.
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Awesome! Thanks Blizzard!
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David Kim continuing to pull perfectly balanced stats out of nowhere.
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On May 10 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job. August win ratesI would say this is more balanced but I am still happy they haven't made any big changes yet.
Yes, let's just ignore the fact that 3 months preceding and following August had some of the worst TvZ stats in history  Great idea.
On May 10 2013 06:35 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:34 Godwrath wrote:On May 10 2013 06:30 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job. The game was more balanced at the end of WOL than it is now. February 2012 was probably the closest it was to balanced in general. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You just take 1 spot and choose how balanced the game is ? Even if the last three months had way more imbalance stats ? C'mon you can't be serious. Isn't that what you are doing now though?
Edit: My fallacy detector ran through the roof. You get called out for cherri-picking data so you accuse someone of cherri-picking data when they include more data? How does that even work?!
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I'm very glad Blizzard is being cautious. Statistics or no statistics, the games look drastically different from week to week. No-one knows how the MUs will end up.
Zs should be embarrassed by all the balance whine they did at the start of HotS. So many Z said it's impossible to win against T, yet Life and Leenock and all the Code S zergs are doing fine. This points at a certain learning curve where the skill ceiling for zergs was raised so those with worse mechanics started losing games they would have steamrolled at the end of WoL. Sure, losing your ranking is going to make people upset, but that says nothing about balance.
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On May 10 2013 06:35 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:34 Godwrath wrote:On May 10 2013 06:30 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 10 2013 06:27 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 06:26 Yoshinaka wrote:
Why does so called professional game designers need trial and error and statistics so much... does a engineer or mechanic try every piece when building a machine or fixing a car. This is core problem we've been dealing with since the very beginning, the way they approach their game and balance design "Lets try this and see what happens" a hobo off the street can design/balance a game using that process. im pretty confident certain members of this community could have this game balanced in a weekend yet alone 6 years or however long its been.
blizzard + 1 The game is as balanced as it's been in how many months/years? I'm glad they aren't making needless changes that screw up the game like they did in wings. I think they are doing a great job. The game was more balanced at the end of WOL than it is now. February 2012 was probably the closest it was to balanced in general. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You just take 1 spot and choose how balanced the game is ? Even if the last three months had way more imbalance stats ? C'mon you can't be serious. Isn't that what you are doing now though?
Nope. Or i am not explaining myself well enough. Just take August to december and watch the trend, it's always getting peaks and going lower than the last time, over and over and over. That was TvZ at that time. What i am saying to Bronzeknee is that he is deluding himself trying to find conclussions if he is really trying to compare a 2 year old game, where the last patch happened many months ago that finally was setting up, to a game which is starting with just one month.
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On May 10 2013 05:59 heartagram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:08 Tsubbi wrote:On May 10 2013 05:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
TvZ is still terran favored, i don't care what anyone says. Other match-ups are better--can go either way--and really map dependent, but non-retarded Terrans will still make zerg look silly. stats fail to illustrate the full picture, i'm afraid. agreed, blizzard never cites their stats anyways lol, tvz is at a steady 55% so far in terrans favor which is clearly too much, the burrow change wouldve been at aleast a tiny change that would help in zvt the most so i have no idea why they would revert it What the hell are you even talking about? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/StatisticsGame is better now than it's ever been, and Zerg actually has the 55%
also 50% zerg in codes ro8
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On May 10 2013 06:41 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:59 heartagram wrote:On May 10 2013 05:08 Tsubbi wrote:On May 10 2013 05:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
TvZ is still terran favored, i don't care what anyone says. Other match-ups are better--can go either way--and really map dependent, but non-retarded Terrans will still make zerg look silly. stats fail to illustrate the full picture, i'm afraid. agreed, blizzard never cites their stats anyways lol, tvz is at a steady 55% so far in terrans favor which is clearly too much, the burrow change wouldve been at aleast a tiny change that would help in zvt the most so i have no idea why they would revert it What the hell are you even talking about? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/StatisticsGame is better now than it's ever been, and Zerg actually has the 55% also 50% zerg in codes ro8
People will always cry I guess. Glad Blizzard is thinking rationally.
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If people want to link to data with small sample sizes to back up balance arguments....
Here's the final word on balance, Play XP QQ Meter:
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
Edit: the race with the bigger bar has more QQ
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On May 10 2013 06:09 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 06:00 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2013 05:49 Sissors wrote:
@Choco
I first thought you were talking about banelings, which pro's are far better at dealing with due to superior micro (and lets face it, you need 10 times more efforct to split against banelings than to use banelings), but then I saw you meant mines, okay. Really mines are just the banelings of terran. Of course there are significant differences between them, but yeah if you fuck up as opponent they deal terrible damage. So always a good idea not to do that.
And why wouldn't you be able to go for ling haras? Send one ling ahead and you notice soon enough if there are widow mines. It's silly to compare banelings to mines. Dealing with mines cost efficiently is a little more difficult than "don't have your entire army clumped into a tight ball". And mines don't die when they kill things... Also saying that dealing with banelings is easy, just don't clump your units up, is ridiculous. I could say the same about mines.
Come on now. Either you're being silly here or you have a poor understanding of the challenges involved in different aspects of the game. Dealing with mines as zerg is far more difficult than "look, banelings are coming my way, time to execute that split I've been practicing". Plus you can actually see the banelings coming, and can attack them from outside of their own range.
The risk/reward is far different with banelings as well... at best you'll gain a slight advantage over the opponent in the resources lost meter, usually it's pretty close to breakeven, and there's the chance of losing a ton of banelings while doing no damage. Show me one game where a terran lost because his mines were too cost inefficient.
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zvz definitely needs a change, glad to see the are going through with it
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EPT
