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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:07 Detri wrote: Its actually a 55% winrate for zerg in ZvT in the WCS Where do you get those statistics... here are some actual statistics, both of which shows Terran is winning over 55% of the games versus Zerg. http://aligulac.com/reports/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0 | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:03 Emzeeshady wrote: This does not include pro league, GSTL, Code A, Any qualifiers, MLG, IEM or Dreamhack super accurate stats (not). Way more accurate than adding IEM, MLG, DH or any qualifier with invitations for sure. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:10 BronzeKnee wrote: Where do you get those statistics... here are some actual statistics. http://aligulac.com/reports/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0 And that one has been shown to be non-significant so many times. Easy method: remove WCS qualifiers and it is pretty much 50/50. If removing only the WCS qualifiers already has such a large influence then it is not statistically significant. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 10 2013 05:56 Emzeeshady wrote: Mines make ZvT hell, ZvZ sucks now for everyone and ZvP seems hopeless. Even though I suck with Terran I got to masters in a week and am having way more fun then I did with Zerg spamming widow mines and hellbats. I was hoping the burrow change might make me interested in playing Zerg again but it seems as though I am stuck playing Terran for awhile :/ Actually ZvP is not hopeless at all, the protoss air deathball is nasty but some zergs have found a counter to it, and Catz has been spreading awareness of it on his stream. The solution is corruptors with some vipers to pull in voids/tempests one by one, and swarmhosts on the ground to make it difficult for high templars to be used effectively (tempests love to fire at locusts too). Without psi storm on all of your air units it's possible take on the protoss army. A few infestors are good to have too in case of a big engagement, fungal on all of the void rays helps the corruptors wipe them out quickly. I've been watching terran streams and TvZ just looks so easy... other than allins, your base will never be attacked within the first 12 minutes of the game, leaving you free to macro like mad and just throw army at the zerg constantly. Send a drop here, a drop there, charge up the middle with the rest, leave mines laying around for Z to deal with... it's almost impossible to be cost inefficient too. Of course TvZ isn't free wins all day, but it seems if you're playing terran then it takes a much more skilled player behind the zerg controls to stop you. Sort of the opposite of the final months of WoL where terran had to play near-flawless to keep up with standard zerg play anyone could execute. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:11 Sissors wrote: And that one has been shown to be non-significant so many times. Easy method: remove WCS qualifiers and it is pretty much 50/50. If removing only the WCS qualifiers already has such a large influence then it is not statistically significant. Oh Scissors. Yes, let's remove a huge percentage of the games, and claim it is balanced when those games are removed... That sounds objective. | ||
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PinkFairyLuv
6 Posts
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On May 10 2013 05:15 -Kyo- wrote: While I agree that the balance updates they were suggesting were kind of silly what I don't understand is where they get this information that the game is balanced at all levels. Ladder as the only basis for this is sort of silly, and someone being better than someone else does not mean it's balanced it just means they're better. There have been numerous games in WCS alone that show how strong some things can be when used by the correct people. It's like the only time they're ever going to change something is if it's so incredibly strong, garners so much attention, and is so effective that they have no other choice than to change it. To say the least, people I've talked to over the past 2 days are not happy with the current balance and neither am I. I think in the grand scheme of things we don't really matter, but objectively, I still think there are tons of "really strong" things in the game. They've even been around since beta sooo.. :/ What is it that is too strong? Im sure everyone still complains about medivacs and terran in general because that's the common trend. It has been the common trend since sc2 release. | ||
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heartagram
178 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:13 Emzeeshady wrote: I would disagree. Any statistic with 44 games can hardly be called more accurate then something with ten times the sample size. Simply by adding proleague and GSTL the stats you presented turn into Terran's favour. Well here is proleague Round 5... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012-2013_Proleague/Statistics/Round_5 Is that accurate? And you do know that at the end of wings there were multiple months in a row with Zerg around 64% winrate vs T? 55% is not even close to imbalanced. And that's still absurd! considering Zerg is performing better than Terran right now. The game is balanced. Stop crying. There won't be any balance changes and there shouldn't. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:07 AnomalySC2 wrote: I think it's the right decision to not make any balance changes. The game should evolve through player innovation and not metagame patches. I agree, however is the game evolving? That is the real question. If the game is actually evolving then sure, let it go. But if it isn't, if it is stale, then it needs to be addressed. Some of the matchups are getting pretty stale honestly, ZvZ especially. Unforunately, a lot of players aren't innovating, they are using the same old strategies over and over! For this reason, some units need to changed in order to encourage players to use them! For instance I'd love to see something happen with the dynamic between Vipers and Siege Tanks (maybe make Blinding Cloud only effect Bio, or perhaps it should reduce range by 4). | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:13 Emzeeshady wrote: I would disagree. Any statistic with 44 games can hardly be called more accurate then something with ten times the sample size. Simply by adding proleague and GSTL the stats you presented turn into Terran's favour. And you didn't get what i implied, they are way more inaccurate because the large skill gap on those make any stat taken out of it completely insignificant, while WCS premier have a lesser skill gap for the most part. FFS you had korean terrans beating the crap out of foreigner zergs at IEM. About teamleagues, yes, and how does it show for Proleague? And teamleagues have a fairly different format. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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zmsFlood
Finland169 Posts
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:13 BronzeKnee wrote: Oh Scissors. Yes, let's remove a huge percentage of the games, and claim it is balanced when those games are removed... That sounds objective. I don't claim its balanced when those are removed, I claim the stats are close to 50/50 when those games are removed. Which is fairly easy to verify... And by that I still don't claim it is balanced, I claim the data is not statistically significant. And that is not because the number of games is too low, but because the correlation between the games is too high. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:19 SolidMoose wrote: I apparently missed the patch notes where Blizzard fixed a bug causing nerfs and buffs to units based on data that didn't exist Well, PvT was at 50% when they removed KA. They don't just change things for balance purposes, they also change things because they make the game one dimensional and boring. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:00 Kergy wrote: There's no such thing as imbalance in lower levels, it just means you're not doing things correctly. Actually there is. Things like fast DTs or 10 pools are extremely strong at low skill levels, where players don't have the skill to identify what's coming, prepare for it, or deal with it effectively when it comes. In the past though, these things were only overpowered against below-average players. Around gold or plat, players started learning to prepare for these things and deal with them more effectively. And then at that skill level and above, those simple strats weren't overpowered. It's different with mines, because it's so challenging to find them and deal with them effectively. Instead of the bottom 40% of players struggling to counter a simple offensive style, it's the bottom 97%. You have to be very skilled to counter bio + mines in a cost efficient way - far more skill than it takes to scout a dark shrine, wall off vs 10p, or split your marines up. | ||
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
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