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I don't like the spore change because they already tried it, and it didn't work. So now they're trying harder?
Here's the thing: If you aren't the mutalisk player and you're not doing a huge all-in attack before they're out, you don't get to have a 3rd base on time. You don't get to have creep spread, you don't get to have your army on the map.
This advantage is so powerful that spire before infestors was becoming the de-facto standard in wol. The idea being that you make your mutas, force spores and clear overlords, secure map control, get your third... And then just go roach/infestor with a better economy than your opponent.
So I really don't see this changing zvz a lot. Sure, it might open some options up, that's great. But I don't understand why they didn't make a "zvz only" adjustment to the corruptor, hydralisk or queen, rather than buffing static defense. Defending your own base just isn't the problem with mutalisks, its being able to move out on the map and do stuff if you're the one without mutalisks.
i was really excited for 50/50 burrow but I guess that would be too strong. even still, we don't see a whole lot of people actually using burrow at hatchery tech.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 10 2013 05:47 Chocobo wrote:
What exactly is the "spore change"? Can't find it anywhere.
Spore Crawlers can deal 45 damage to biological targets
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Dang, I was looking forward to 'gotta go fast' oracles, but overall I'm glad they didn't make rash decisions. I'm still awful in PvT right now though, but I think it's because I'm bad not really imba. 
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gj Blizzard taking it slow, I like that
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China6332 Posts
Absolutely great! Only rolling out the Spore change is the best result.
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On May 10 2013 05:08 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
TvZ is still terran favored, i don't care what anyone says. Other match-ups are better--can go either way--and really map dependent, but non-retarded Terrans will still make zerg look silly. stats fail to illustrate the full picture, i'm afraid. agreed, blizzard never cites their stats anyways lol, tvz is at a steady 55% so far in terrans favor which is clearly too much, the burrow change wouldve been at aleast a tiny change that would help in zvt the most so i have no idea why they would revert it
I'd say that's a pretty good number when you consider how abysmally Zergs were able to get away with playing and still collect wins in WoL. There's a lrn2play process currently going on and Zergs are making strides.
I'm glad Blizzard isn't doing much of anything yet. It's still early and things are looking a hell of a lot better than they did over the 10 months before HotS.
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really good thinking by blizzard
we'll see how the spore tweak will change zvz
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I really like the approach they are taking, and I agree that the balance has never been as good as we see right now, so it's good that we see only a very, very small change affecting a single mirror.
Props to them, hopefully we'll see a little less muta wars (though I'm a bad judge on how good this change actually is, as ZvZ is the one matchup which I usually don't watch and have the least first hand experience with).
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On May 10 2013 05:08 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
TvZ is still terran favored, i don't care what anyone says. Other match-ups are better--can go either way--and really map dependent, but non-retarded Terrans will still make zerg look silly. stats fail to illustrate the full picture, i'm afraid. agreed, blizzard never cites their stats anyways lol, tvz is at a steady 55% so far in terrans favor which is clearly too much, the burrow change wouldve been at aleast a tiny change that would help in zvt the most so i have no idea why they would revert it
What the hell are you even talking about?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/Statistics
Game is better now than it's ever been, and Zerg actually has the 55%
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On May 10 2013 05:49 Sissors wrote:
@Choco
I first thought you were talking about banelings, which pro's are far better at dealing with due to superior micro (and lets face it, you need 10 times more efforct to split against banelings than to use banelings), but then I saw you meant mines, okay. Really mines are just the banelings of terran. Of course there are significant differences between them, but yeah if you fuck up as opponent they deal terrible damage. So always a good idea not to do that.
And why wouldn't you be able to go for ling haras? Send one ling ahead and you notice soon enough if there are widow mines.
It's silly to compare banelings to mines. Dealing with mines cost efficiently is a little more difficult than "don't have your entire army clumped into a tight ball". And mines don't die when they kill things... for a terran it feels like "ugh I had some half decent splits but banelings still took out my army" but if you check the units lost tab, the zerg lost as much as the terran due to the cost of the banes that were used up.
"Not fucking up" as terran meant learning to split your army up a bit if you see banelings coming. For zerg now it means "don't go anywhere there might be mines, have overseers with your army at all times, anytime you move units around have 1-2 of them leading the way, and then when you do discover a minefield you need to play this micro-intensive time-consuming game of sending in single units at a time to suicide" and so on, and it's even more complicated with terran units are interfering with you cleaning up the mines... honestly it amazes me every time I see a pro zerg handle it.
Actually I am in favor of skill-intensive gameplay like this which raise the skill ceiling back a little closer to where it was in BW... but not that tougher challenge isn't shared by all three races.
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On May 10 2013 05:43 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:05 Rostam wrote:On May 10 2013 05:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:
TvZ is still terran favored, i don't care what anyone says. Other match-ups are better--can go either way--and really map dependent, but non-retarded Terrans will still make zerg look silly. stats fail to illustrate the full picture, i'm afraid. Good thing Code S is filled with retarded Terrans, then, otherwise zerg would be having issues. The game is very well balanced at the pro level but at the mere-humans level, mines are pretty silly. Incredibly cost efficient, takes 10 times more effort to counter than to use, and one mistake vs mines can be game ending. I know that balancing the game for the pro level is far more important than other skill levels... but I can't help but wish they didn't introduce a unit like this into the game. For me in low masters mines just make me want to quit the game. I can't leave my base, I can't ling harrass or go for surrounds, just in case there's a mine there that'll blow up everything for free. I can get mine dropped before I have detection. And even if I know exactly where every mine is, it's still a mess to deal with them... and the only unit that really counters them is broodlords. It's just so frustrating and half the time I just allin against terran now because I'm sick of facing bio/mines and not being able to do anything about it because it takes pro level control to deal with it. WoL ZvT was zerg-favored for a long time but the infestor nerfs and raven buffs made it close to balanced at the very end... then HotS hits and the matchup changed so much in terran's favor. Reapers, speedvacs, hellbats, and mines are all so good and can be gotten quickly, they can affect every game. Meanwhile SH is bad vs terran, so zerg's new toys are the ultra and viper... which are great, but the early game is so much harder. I'm disappointed that changes to mines or reapers apparently weren't even discussed... and something potentially useful for zerg (early burrow) was tossed out before giving it a chance. I feel like I should switch races just so I can use units that can deal with mines better.
There's no such thing as imbalance in lower levels, it just means you're not doing things correctly.
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yeah, 55% winrate for t in tvz seems balanced
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I think it's the right decision to not make any balance changes. The game should evolve through player innovation and not metagame patches.
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On May 10 2013 06:01 Mefaso wrote:
yeah, 55% winrate for t in tvz seems balanced
Its actually a 55% winrate for zerg in ZvT in the WCS
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Somewhere IdrA is crying into a fifth of Jack right now.
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On May 10 2013 06:00 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 05:49 Sissors wrote:
@Choco
I first thought you were talking about banelings, which pro's are far better at dealing with due to superior micro (and lets face it, you need 10 times more efforct to split against banelings than to use banelings), but then I saw you meant mines, okay. Really mines are just the banelings of terran. Of course there are significant differences between them, but yeah if you fuck up as opponent they deal terrible damage. So always a good idea not to do that.
And why wouldn't you be able to go for ling haras? Send one ling ahead and you notice soon enough if there are widow mines. It's silly to compare banelings to mines. Dealing with mines cost efficiently is a little more difficult than "don't have your entire army clumped into a tight ball". And mines don't die when they kill things...
Sadly the things those mines kill are also friendly units...
Also saying that dealing with banelings is easy, just don't clump your units up, is ridiculous. I could say the same about mines.
On May 10 2013 06:01 Mefaso wrote:
yeah, 55% winrate for t in tvz seems balanced
No quoting non-significant stats is balanced, just like ignoring that zerg is most represented on both ladder and code S.
Anyway just for fun I opened unit test map and did a roughly equal cost scenario for the non-micro'd case (hey we are talking about non-pros). We have 15 marines + 4 widow mines vs 50 lings. Both sides 1-1 upgrades, zerg has ling speed, terran has combat shield + stim. My micro consisted of telling lings to a-move and pressing stim on the marines. Result: Everyone died. Yes it wasn't some kind of one-sided slaughter due to the widow mines, the widow mines got by far the majority of the kills, but that majority of the kills did include the marines themselves. Was off creep btw.
Btw those who claim TvZ is unbalanced, maybe you can first decide if it is unbalanced at pro level (so then explain for example code S), or at regular level (so then stop quoting the non-significant 55% stat).
Edit: Heh lol @ WCS stats. Wonder how many of the zergs who wanted terran nerfs because of their 55% stat want it now for zerg.
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EPT
