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On May 13 2013 19:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 16:39 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 14:44 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 12:33 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 04:46 Godwrath wrote:On May 13 2013 02:05 Nirel wrote:
All the progamers I've heard, said that Hellbats are bad. They are a unit with obvious flaws design. The thing is it is not overpowered, just a boring unit, pretty much like colossi. Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop. The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers. The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly. Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over. Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game. Lol do you even play this game? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My opinion is based on facts, math, and watching a lot of high level starcraft where I've seen plenty of hellbat abuse already. The numbers don't lie. I'm talking in terms of context of the matchup when I talk about zealots and hellbats. The hellbats don't need to move fast because the zealots have to come to them, and when they do, they get demolished. Once that happens, the fragile expensive protoss army gets run over. Best cost:life ratios in the game? What game are you playing? You should do some research before you open your mouth. Zealots and tempest are the only thing protoss has that have lots of life for cost, and even then, it's not by much (hellbat has 135 and does more dps, and has splash. Roach is 75/25 and has 145). How is that relevant when the fragile toss army I am referring to is the stuff that isn't zealots? Hellbats are so stupidly cost effective right now, Terrans should be using them. Some high level terrans have already stated that they almost try not to use them because they know they have to be nerfed and will be nerfed. Static defense? Like I've already stated, hellbats are so cost effective, you can drop them to their death and they'll still be worth it. I could have two cannons in the mineral line at each base, and you'd still be able to zoom in with a medivac, drop them, not lose the medivac, and have the hellbats do massive damage before dying. Even Terrans complain of OP hellbats in TvT. Ironically you cite no "fact", and then transition into more ad hominem which is more or less all I need to know that you, unfortunately, have no argument aside from your unfounded balance whine combined with no rebuttal to my main point. Regular hellions are better at wiping mineral lines than Hellbats, so if you're losing workers to Hellbats then it's because of your own negligence as you would lose even more to normal hellions; furthermore with 2 range and extremely slow movement speed Hellbats are also extremely kitable in direct engagements (while being less "tanky" than the Zealot and the Roach) which means that, combining these two points, if you're losing to them you're simply getting outplayed. I understand getting outplayed is frustrating, but you're not as good as you think. Balance is not your issue. Again, you don't play this game, do you. Perhaps you play at a really low level? Try watching some Starcraft 2 games. Hellbats have conal splash, do more dps, are tankier than hellions, and most of all, can be healed by medivacs. Hellbats are much harder to kill because of this, and this allows them the time to ravage your mineral line. Not only this, they do WAY more damage to non-light, unlike hellions which tickle light and can be handled by non-light units quite easily. Again, do you not play this game? You clearly don't understand how it is played. You realize the entire protoss ground army besides the stalker and chargelot move the same speed or slower than a hellbat, right? And chargelots are melee range.... and no, lots of stalkers in PvT is not good at all, unless you are trying to 1 base blink all in a gasless expand. Why do you keep trying to pin the balance discussion on my play? It's not some secret that hellbats are OP for cost that only I know about . When top Terran players admit hellbats are OP and how they are really lame in TvT as well, how does that have anything to do with me? It doesn't. From a spectator point of view, I've already seen many TvT games where each Terran just repeatedly hellbat dropped each other over and over, and man, is that ever a terrible viewing experience. It's like the muta vs muta wars in ZvZ atm but worse because Hellbats are so expendable. Flash seems to think Hellbats are pretty OP, why else is his TvT strategy to multi-prong drop hellbats all game long. You come off as a bad Terran player that doesn't really even play the game... I can't explain in... your comments are so out of touch with the game. Wait, I know.... you are just blindlly defending everything to do with your race, hoping to qualm the obvious needs for balance adjustments. How original? I barely ever face Hellbat drops or Hellbats in compositions on ladder, because a lot of Terrans on NA don't abuse them enough. Once they become more used, especially later in the game, blizzard will eventually wake up and nerf them. It's inevitable, but it would be nice if it was sooner rather than later. The only one "who doesn't play this game" or "is low level" is someone doesn't understand the basic fact that normal hellions are better at clearing minerals lines than Hellbats because, not only can they chase workers which hellbats can't, but also if workers run they line up. If you're losing all of your workers to Hellbats you're getting outplayed because normal hellions would do just as much damage or more, and do it faster; this means you're simply riding the placebo train and likely trying to justify areas where you lack. If you're losing to Hellbats in direct engagements when they are slow 2 range units then you're also getting outplayed. Period. Stop trying to take the high ground and pin your losses on balance, because not only do you have zero reasonable proof, but your logic isn't remotely consistent or valid and consists of unsourced claims (he said she said), bias, and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to accept reality. If you want some advise for the next time you attempt this try coming back with replays or something that has actual statistical significance like the below:
Oh Terran, such a thinly veiled blind defense of your own race. Guess what else can chase workers? hellbats dropped from speed medivacs. Guess what has way more hp and is healed by medivacs? Hellbats. Talking to you is becoming pointless, because it doesn't seem like you have much cognition going up between those ears of yours. Who said anything about losing all workers? Hellbats only need to kill a few to be worth it. I'm talking from a pro game perspective, not my own, poor fool. TY in last nights proleague seems to realize Hellbats are good, He used hellbat drops every game, and was one match away from a reverse all-kill. Flash is using them lots. You are the one with no evidence or proof, and is just blindly defending your race.
User was warned for this post
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On May 13 2013 20:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 19:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 16:39 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 14:44 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 12:33 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 04:46 Godwrath wrote:On May 13 2013 02:05 Nirel wrote:
All the progamers I've heard, said that Hellbats are bad. They are a unit with obvious flaws design. The thing is it is not overpowered, just a boring unit, pretty much like colossi. Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop. The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers. The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly. Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over. Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game. Lol do you even play this game? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My opinion is based on facts, math, and watching a lot of high level starcraft where I've seen plenty of hellbat abuse already. The numbers don't lie. I'm talking in terms of context of the matchup when I talk about zealots and hellbats. The hellbats don't need to move fast because the zealots have to come to them, and when they do, they get demolished. Once that happens, the fragile expensive protoss army gets run over. Best cost:life ratios in the game? What game are you playing? You should do some research before you open your mouth. Zealots and tempest are the only thing protoss has that have lots of life for cost, and even then, it's not by much (hellbat has 135 and does more dps, and has splash. Roach is 75/25 and has 145). How is that relevant when the fragile toss army I am referring to is the stuff that isn't zealots? Hellbats are so stupidly cost effective right now, Terrans should be using them. Some high level terrans have already stated that they almost try not to use them because they know they have to be nerfed and will be nerfed. Static defense? Like I've already stated, hellbats are so cost effective, you can drop them to their death and they'll still be worth it. I could have two cannons in the mineral line at each base, and you'd still be able to zoom in with a medivac, drop them, not lose the medivac, and have the hellbats do massive damage before dying. Even Terrans complain of OP hellbats in TvT. Ironically you cite no "fact", and then transition into more ad hominem which is more or less all I need to know that you, unfortunately, have no argument aside from your unfounded balance whine combined with no rebuttal to my main point. Regular hellions are better at wiping mineral lines than Hellbats, so if you're losing workers to Hellbats then it's because of your own negligence as you would lose even more to normal hellions; furthermore with 2 range and extremely slow movement speed Hellbats are also extremely kitable in direct engagements (while being less "tanky" than the Zealot and the Roach) which means that, combining these two points, if you're losing to them you're simply getting outplayed. I understand getting outplayed is frustrating, but you're not as good as you think. Balance is not your issue. Again, you don't play this game, do you. Perhaps you play at a really low level? Try watching some Starcraft 2 games. Hellbats have conal splash, do more dps, are tankier than hellions, and most of all, can be healed by medivacs. Hellbats are much harder to kill because of this, and this allows them the time to ravage your mineral line. Not only this, they do WAY more damage to non-light, unlike hellions which tickle light and can be handled by non-light units quite easily. Again, do you not play this game? You clearly don't understand how it is played. You realize the entire protoss ground army besides the stalker and chargelot move the same speed or slower than a hellbat, right? And chargelots are melee range.... and no, lots of stalkers in PvT is not good at all, unless you are trying to 1 base blink all in a gasless expand. Why do you keep trying to pin the balance discussion on my play? It's not some secret that hellbats are OP for cost that only I know about . When top Terran players admit hellbats are OP and how they are really lame in TvT as well, how does that have anything to do with me? It doesn't. From a spectator point of view, I've already seen many TvT games where each Terran just repeatedly hellbat dropped each other over and over, and man, is that ever a terrible viewing experience. It's like the muta vs muta wars in ZvZ atm but worse because Hellbats are so expendable. Flash seems to think Hellbats are pretty OP, why else is his TvT strategy to multi-prong drop hellbats all game long. You come off as a bad Terran player that doesn't really even play the game... I can't explain in... your comments are so out of touch with the game. Wait, I know.... you are just blindlly defending everything to do with your race, hoping to qualm the obvious needs for balance adjustments. How original? I barely ever face Hellbat drops or Hellbats in compositions on ladder, because a lot of Terrans on NA don't abuse them enough. Once they become more used, especially later in the game, blizzard will eventually wake up and nerf them. It's inevitable, but it would be nice if it was sooner rather than later. The only one "who doesn't play this game" or "is low level" is someone doesn't understand the basic fact that normal hellions are better at clearing minerals lines than Hellbats because, not only can they chase workers which hellbats can't, but also if workers run they line up. If you're losing all of your workers to Hellbats you're getting outplayed because normal hellions would do just as much damage or more, and do it faster; this means you're simply riding the placebo train and likely trying to justify areas where you lack. If you're losing to Hellbats in direct engagements when they are slow 2 range units then you're also getting outplayed. Period. Stop trying to take the high ground and pin your losses on balance, because not only do you have zero reasonable proof, but your logic isn't remotely consistent or valid and consists of unsourced claims (he said she said), bias, and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to accept reality. If you want some advise for the next time you attempt this try coming back with replays or something that has actual statistical significance like the below: Sorry man, but with medivac speed boost and micro, hellbats are just as good as chasing down workers as hellions, and they heal and do better splash and single target damage, meaning they can stick around longer and fight defenders far more effectively while killing just as many workers. That's why you see pros do hellbat drops far more often than hellion drops.
Hard to talk any sense into this blind Terran defender. That Demigod guy is a moron.
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On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:
Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop.
The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers.
The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly.
Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over.
On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game.
On May 13 2013 12:35 Sabu113 wrote:
You don't understand this game.
No, no he doesn't. Anyone who claims no protoss unit is "fragile" and that they all have amazing cost:life ratios can basically be ignored from then on. No game knowledge what so ever
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On May 14 2013 07:00 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 23:02 Hryul wrote:On May 13 2013 21:36 Chocobo wrote:On May 13 2013 03:13 Hryul wrote:On May 12 2013 23:16 Chocobo wrote:On May 12 2013 22:59 Hryul wrote:On May 12 2013 22:43 Chocobo wrote:On May 12 2013 09:39 AxionSteel wrote:After ages of frustration against zerg in LingsofLiberty, it certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all this QQ in here. Doesn't stop zerg from mopping up the tournaments and doing extremely well in Code S though  I don't know any zergs who are complaining about balance at the pro level. The problem is that the skill required to play effectively in ZvT is too high for the vast majority of active players. This wouldn't be a problem if it affected both races equally, but it only affects zerg. It's nothing like other situations where it's like "yes, banelings are strong, you have to split your army up when you see them coming, or you have to protect yourself with tanks". Those are reasonable challenges that most players can learn to pull off. The skill and precision requires to deal with mines effectively is not. It requires so much effort, and is very punishing for any mistakes. Few diamond and masters players have the skill to ever be able to pull it off. So even though it's completely fair at the pro level, there's a problem for much of the ladder. This post highlights a unreasonable fatalistic stance: It is hard. I can't do it right now therefore only a few people can do it and all the others (including me) can't ever learn it. Zerg bias at its finest. The deliberate ignorance of facts in here is starting to rival Fox News. It is simply a fact that it is significantly more difficult to engage a bio mine army in a cost efficient way than it is to split your marines when banelings come rolling in, or cast feedback on medivacs, or whatever. Completely missing the point. You just claim that it is an unreasonable effort to learn how to engage mines and then base your whole arguments on this assumption. It doesn't strengthen your argument by drawing wild comparisons to Fox News. And instead of taking the challenge you fight a war on the tl forums for a nerf of mines. Why is there an assumption that no one is trying to counter mines? Everyone seems to think zergs are trying to play WoL style and crying when it doesn't work, and refusing to adapt and learn. HotS has been out for a while now, and the beta's been going longer than that. If months and months of doing your best to try anything and everything to deal with mines leads to no results... how else can you feel? I do not have the skill and control of Life and Stephano and I never will. Instead of "stop crying and deal with it", why not try discussing the gameplay? Why is it that other strats are dealth with by "make ___ to counter it" or "when the engagement hits, do ___" while the counter to mines is "make this, and some of these, and carefully suicide single units, and make sure you never do that, and..." That's what the issue is all about. The way that zerg deals with mines is a very challenging micro-intensive process and is very unforgiving of mistakes. This is not in line with how the rest of the game works. At the moment you are arguing that Blizzard should balance the game not only for the pros (where TvZ might be slightly T favored) but also to your personal gaming experience. The pro level is most important, but it would be nice if it's a good gameplay experience for non-pros too, wouldn't you agree? On May 13 2013 00:46 FirstGear wrote:
What are you actually suggesting? Nerfing mines to make it easier at lower levels? Or just an acknowledgement that its hard to play against mines? ZvT certainly does have a greater micro requirement than it did in WoL. Some kind of change to mines that makes them less difficult for players to deal with, without ruining them at the pro level (which is important). Maybe a longer burrow time, since so many people use it as a siege tank replacement. Maybe have them become visible for 1 second after firing. I dunno, just throwing some ideas out. You are twisting my posts. Where do I say that no one tries to counter mines? I doubted your claim that it takes unreasonable effort to learn how to counter mines. You said "And instead of taking the challenge you fight a war on the tl forums for a nerf of mines", which means you believe I refuse to learn how to engage mines and that I call for nerfs instead of practicing at the game. I didn't twist anything.
You twisted because you set yourself for all Zergs. Now you are hopping back to the first person view. do you even realize this?
On May 14 2013 07:00 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +You are also not discussing gameplay i.e. how to counter mines but you want mines nerfed because you can't handle them. I am the one who is consistently discussing the gameplay options you have, how the situation is different from other challenging situations in the game, etc. You and others are repeating a variation of "L2P" without discussing the gameplay involved. Show nested quote +And this is all you are arguing: there is a "skill cap" for handling mines and you don't want to be below it. That is correct. I think someone who has been playing Starcraft since 1998 and who currently practices ZvT (and countering mines specifically) at least an hour a day should be able to have SOME success in stopping bio mine, instead of having a 30% winrate vs terran. (most of those wins coming vs non-mine users) If you think it's perfectly fine for the skill requirement to play effectively against (and I'm not even talking about hard countering) a very simple strategy to be so high that only the top 1% of players can pull it off occasionally... then I simply disagree with you. Bottom line. Show nested quote +Guess what: the same is true for marine splitting vs banes, EMPing protoss armys or fighting 2gate proxys. Have I not made this point abundantly clear yet? It is the entire basis for my argument. The skill, speed, and precision required to deal with mines effectively and mistake-free is far and away above the skill required to split marines or land EMPs. It is not a trick you can figure out with a couple hours of practice. Do you play Street Fighter? Suppose there's a new one with three characters. The anti-air special move for Char1 is a dragon punch motion. The anti-air special move for Char2 is a half circle motion. For Char3 it's Right-Left-Down-Left, hold the Jab button, half circle forward and release the button. Which one of those characters is going to have problems dealing with jumping attacks?
I'm sorry but your recent post history contains a bunch of posts in this thread, and Game of Thrones discussion. Your postings in the "balance thread" are about the swarm host (and the abomination) and your latest posts in the strategy forum is about countering bunker contain on Neo Planet S. This doesn't seem like you are discussing gameplay options vs widow mines.
Instead you are here and demand changes to the widow mine. the 1998 comment makes me feel like you are entitled to success if you put in enough hours of practice - because you are a veteran. Seems like it is something new at least.
Also: this is a threat about the upcoming patch. So we are here to say that/why we like/dislike the upcoming patch. And most of the time we give arguments supporting our stance. Your PoV is supported by your personal ladder experience. If you want help with your problem with mines why aren't you in the Strategy forum?
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Make the Hellbat heal be an upgrade instead of being there from the start.
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On May 14 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 06:24 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:20 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:10 ( bush wrote:
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
Talking about equal skill made me laugh. I guess you didnt watch any games of Wings of Liberty where players like JonnyRecco (no offense) could go head to head with top tier Code S terrans who practice 15 hours a day. Except this never happened. I only remember one series where he almost beat Keen and Keen is far from a top tier Korean. JRecco also got crushed by many foreigners of other races during this time. Reading comprehension: players like JonnyRecco, ie. relatively nameless foreign zergs suddenly beating Code S Terrans after the queen buff. Also, JonnyRecco crushing many foreigners during that time is relevant how? ZvX was broken, and ZvZ was based on either A) ling/bling coinflip, B) who got the better fungal. ZvZ is still looking poor, thus the spore buff against mutas. Maybe we'll see some changes to that mirror matchup thanks for that. Funny how you point out reading comprehension when you read my paragraph wrong. I said he got crushed BY them. I will actually concede ZvT was horribly broken back then. PvZ was actually very balanced (I would go as far as saying Protoss favoured for a little bit).
lol, true say
We do agree on the more important things though~
/edit
Seriously, people arguing about hellbat drops are ridiculous. Top level players know how to deal with it. It looked OP in ... TvT, until Terrans themselves began to get anti-air like turrets to shut down the medivacs and then pick off the hellbats.
Nothing indicates to me that protoss or zergs are unable to defend against it the same way.
I'll keep an eye on more top level games to see how this tactic plays out. But people are prematurely reacting to hellbat drops effectiveness when so many players are not getting basic defenses.
Terrans have to get turrets against Z cuz of mutas. Terrans have to get turrets against P cuz of oracles. I think it's only fair that Terrans can also threaten and force out similar defenses out of their opponents.
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On May 14 2013 08:05 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:24 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:20 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:10 ( bush wrote:
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
Talking about equal skill made me laugh. I guess you didnt watch any games of Wings of Liberty where players like JonnyRecco (no offense) could go head to head with top tier Code S terrans who practice 15 hours a day. Except this never happened. I only remember one series where he almost beat Keen and Keen is far from a top tier Korean. JRecco also got crushed by many foreigners of other races during this time. Reading comprehension: players like JonnyRecco, ie. relatively nameless foreign zergs suddenly beating Code S Terrans after the queen buff. Also, JonnyRecco crushing many foreigners during that time is relevant how? ZvX was broken, and ZvZ was based on either A) ling/bling coinflip, B) who got the better fungal. ZvZ is still looking poor, thus the spore buff against mutas. Maybe we'll see some changes to that mirror matchup thanks for that. Funny how you point out reading comprehension when you read my paragraph wrong. I said he got crushed BY them. I will actually concede ZvT was horribly broken back then. PvZ was actually very balanced (I would go as far as saying Protoss favoured for a little bit). lol, true say We do agree on the more important things though~ /edit Seriously, people arguing about hellbat drops are ridiculous. Top level players know how to deal with it. It looked OP in ... TvT, until Terrans themselves began to get anti-air like turrets to shut down the medivacs and then pick off the hellbats. Nothing indicates to me that protoss or zergs are unable to defend against it the same way. I'll keep an eye on more top level games to see how this tactic plays out. But people are prematurely reacting to hellbat drops effectiveness when so many players are not getting basic defenses. Terrans have to get turrets against Z cuz of mutas. Terrans have to get turrets against P cuz of oracles. I think it's only fair that Terrans can also threaten and force out similar defenses out of their opponents.
At the risk of sounding whiny, a lot of Terran players don't realize just how good missile turrets are. I don't think it's imbalanced, but it is certainly a fact.
Missile Turret: 27.9 DPS vs air, 100 minerals
Spore Crawler: 17.4 DPS vs air, 125 minerals
Photon Cannon: 16 DPS vs air or ground, 150 minerals
Now I realize that Zerg and Protoss have Queens and warp-ins respectively to help augment their defense, but I don't really think "just get more static D" is a good solution if you're not a terran player. You need some, but honestly it's expensive and just not that good a lot of the time.
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On May 14 2013 07:46 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 20:24 Whitewing wrote:On May 13 2013 19:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 16:39 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 14:44 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 12:33 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 04:46 Godwrath wrote:On May 13 2013 02:05 Nirel wrote:
All the progamers I've heard, said that Hellbats are bad. They are a unit with obvious flaws design. The thing is it is not overpowered, just a boring unit, pretty much like colossi. Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop. The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers. The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly. Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over. Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game. Lol do you even play this game? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My opinion is based on facts, math, and watching a lot of high level starcraft where I've seen plenty of hellbat abuse already. The numbers don't lie. I'm talking in terms of context of the matchup when I talk about zealots and hellbats. The hellbats don't need to move fast because the zealots have to come to them, and when they do, they get demolished. Once that happens, the fragile expensive protoss army gets run over. Best cost:life ratios in the game? What game are you playing? You should do some research before you open your mouth. Zealots and tempest are the only thing protoss has that have lots of life for cost, and even then, it's not by much (hellbat has 135 and does more dps, and has splash. Roach is 75/25 and has 145). How is that relevant when the fragile toss army I am referring to is the stuff that isn't zealots? Hellbats are so stupidly cost effective right now, Terrans should be using them. Some high level terrans have already stated that they almost try not to use them because they know they have to be nerfed and will be nerfed. Static defense? Like I've already stated, hellbats are so cost effective, you can drop them to their death and they'll still be worth it. I could have two cannons in the mineral line at each base, and you'd still be able to zoom in with a medivac, drop them, not lose the medivac, and have the hellbats do massive damage before dying. Even Terrans complain of OP hellbats in TvT. Ironically you cite no "fact", and then transition into more ad hominem which is more or less all I need to know that you, unfortunately, have no argument aside from your unfounded balance whine combined with no rebuttal to my main point. Regular hellions are better at wiping mineral lines than Hellbats, so if you're losing workers to Hellbats then it's because of your own negligence as you would lose even more to normal hellions; furthermore with 2 range and extremely slow movement speed Hellbats are also extremely kitable in direct engagements (while being less "tanky" than the Zealot and the Roach) which means that, combining these two points, if you're losing to them you're simply getting outplayed. I understand getting outplayed is frustrating, but you're not as good as you think. Balance is not your issue. Again, you don't play this game, do you. Perhaps you play at a really low level? Try watching some Starcraft 2 games. Hellbats have conal splash, do more dps, are tankier than hellions, and most of all, can be healed by medivacs. Hellbats are much harder to kill because of this, and this allows them the time to ravage your mineral line. Not only this, they do WAY more damage to non-light, unlike hellions which tickle light and can be handled by non-light units quite easily. Again, do you not play this game? You clearly don't understand how it is played. You realize the entire protoss ground army besides the stalker and chargelot move the same speed or slower than a hellbat, right? And chargelots are melee range.... and no, lots of stalkers in PvT is not good at all, unless you are trying to 1 base blink all in a gasless expand. Why do you keep trying to pin the balance discussion on my play? It's not some secret that hellbats are OP for cost that only I know about . When top Terran players admit hellbats are OP and how they are really lame in TvT as well, how does that have anything to do with me? It doesn't. From a spectator point of view, I've already seen many TvT games where each Terran just repeatedly hellbat dropped each other over and over, and man, is that ever a terrible viewing experience. It's like the muta vs muta wars in ZvZ atm but worse because Hellbats are so expendable. Flash seems to think Hellbats are pretty OP, why else is his TvT strategy to multi-prong drop hellbats all game long. You come off as a bad Terran player that doesn't really even play the game... I can't explain in... your comments are so out of touch with the game. Wait, I know.... you are just blindlly defending everything to do with your race, hoping to qualm the obvious needs for balance adjustments. How original? I barely ever face Hellbat drops or Hellbats in compositions on ladder, because a lot of Terrans on NA don't abuse them enough. Once they become more used, especially later in the game, blizzard will eventually wake up and nerf them. It's inevitable, but it would be nice if it was sooner rather than later. The only one "who doesn't play this game" or "is low level" is someone doesn't understand the basic fact that normal hellions are better at clearing minerals lines than Hellbats because, not only can they chase workers which hellbats can't, but also if workers run they line up. If you're losing all of your workers to Hellbats you're getting outplayed because normal hellions would do just as much damage or more, and do it faster; this means you're simply riding the placebo train and likely trying to justify areas where you lack. If you're losing to Hellbats in direct engagements when they are slow 2 range units then you're also getting outplayed. Period. Stop trying to take the high ground and pin your losses on balance, because not only do you have zero reasonable proof, but your logic isn't remotely consistent or valid and consists of unsourced claims (he said she said), bias, and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to accept reality. If you want some advise for the next time you attempt this try coming back with replays or something that has actual statistical significance like the below: Sorry man, but with medivac speed boost and micro, hellbats are just as good as chasing down workers as hellions, and they heal and do better splash and single target damage, meaning they can stick around longer and fight defenders far more effectively while killing just as many workers. That's why you see pros do hellbat drops far more often than hellion drops. Hard to talk any sense into this blind Terran defender. That Demigod guy is a moron.
+ Show Spoiler +1.) Ad hominem - check.
2.) Raging because he lost the argument - check.
3.) Warned by mods - check.
Poor fellow. As my actual points have yet to be responded to I will move on to other matters.
On May 14 2013 08:36 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 08:05 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:24 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:20 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:10 ( bush wrote:
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
Talking about equal skill made me laugh. I guess you didnt watch any games of Wings of Liberty where players like JonnyRecco (no offense) could go head to head with top tier Code S terrans who practice 15 hours a day. Except this never happened. I only remember one series where he almost beat Keen and Keen is far from a top tier Korean. JRecco also got crushed by many foreigners of other races during this time. Reading comprehension: players like JonnyRecco, ie. relatively nameless foreign zergs suddenly beating Code S Terrans after the queen buff. Also, JonnyRecco crushing many foreigners during that time is relevant how? ZvX was broken, and ZvZ was based on either A) ling/bling coinflip, B) who got the better fungal. ZvZ is still looking poor, thus the spore buff against mutas. Maybe we'll see some changes to that mirror matchup thanks for that. Funny how you point out reading comprehension when you read my paragraph wrong. I said he got crushed BY them. I will actually concede ZvT was horribly broken back then. PvZ was actually very balanced (I would go as far as saying Protoss favoured for a little bit). lol, true say We do agree on the more important things though~ /edit Seriously, people arguing about hellbat drops are ridiculous. Top level players know how to deal with it. It looked OP in ... TvT, until Terrans themselves began to get anti-air like turrets to shut down the medivacs and then pick off the hellbats. Nothing indicates to me that protoss or zergs are unable to defend against it the same way. I'll keep an eye on more top level games to see how this tactic plays out. But people are prematurely reacting to hellbat drops effectiveness when so many players are not getting basic defenses. Terrans have to get turrets against Z cuz of mutas. Terrans have to get turrets against P cuz of oracles. I think it's only fair that Terrans can also threaten and force out similar defenses out of their opponents. At the risk of sounding whiny, a lot of Terran players don't realize just how good missile turrets are. I don't think it's imbalanced, but it is certainly a fact. Missile Turret: 27.9 DPS vs air, 100 minerals Spore Crawler: 17.4 DPS vs air, 125 minerals Photon Cannon: 16 DPS vs air or ground, 150 minerals Now I realize that Zerg and Protoss have Queens and warp-ins respectively to help augment their defense, but I don't really think "just get more static D" is a good solution if you're not a terran player. You need some, but honestly it's expensive and just not that good a lot of the time.
Spore Crawler life: 400
Photon Cannon life: 150 + 150 (300)
Missle Turret Life: 250
This means you need a lower critical mass of units to effectively one-shot turrets which of course drops DPS to 0; I'm not commenting on your actual argument (in the context of defending drops this might suggest that Terran is more vulnerable to flyers and less to aerial runbys, however I believe this is augmented to be even when you consider that canons/spines will attack whatever unloads from a drop while Terran has no gasless static defence for the natural and main), but when you make a comparison it bests to paint the entire picture.
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On May 14 2013 08:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 07:46 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 20:24 Whitewing wrote:On May 13 2013 19:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 16:39 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 14:44 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 12:33 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 04:46 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
They are a unit with obvious flaws design. The thing is it is not overpowered, just a boring unit, pretty much like colossi. Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop. The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers. The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly. Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over. Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game. Lol do you even play this game? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My opinion is based on facts, math, and watching a lot of high level starcraft where I've seen plenty of hellbat abuse already. The numbers don't lie. I'm talking in terms of context of the matchup when I talk about zealots and hellbats. The hellbats don't need to move fast because the zealots have to come to them, and when they do, they get demolished. Once that happens, the fragile expensive protoss army gets run over. Best cost:life ratios in the game? What game are you playing? You should do some research before you open your mouth. Zealots and tempest are the only thing protoss has that have lots of life for cost, and even then, it's not by much (hellbat has 135 and does more dps, and has splash. Roach is 75/25 and has 145). How is that relevant when the fragile toss army I am referring to is the stuff that isn't zealots? Hellbats are so stupidly cost effective right now, Terrans should be using them. Some high level terrans have already stated that they almost try not to use them because they know they have to be nerfed and will be nerfed. Static defense? Like I've already stated, hellbats are so cost effective, you can drop them to their death and they'll still be worth it. I could have two cannons in the mineral line at each base, and you'd still be able to zoom in with a medivac, drop them, not lose the medivac, and have the hellbats do massive damage before dying. Even Terrans complain of OP hellbats in TvT. Ironically you cite no "fact", and then transition into more ad hominem which is more or less all I need to know that you, unfortunately, have no argument aside from your unfounded balance whine combined with no rebuttal to my main point. Regular hellions are better at wiping mineral lines than Hellbats, so if you're losing workers to Hellbats then it's because of your own negligence as you would lose even more to normal hellions; furthermore with 2 range and extremely slow movement speed Hellbats are also extremely kitable in direct engagements (while being less "tanky" than the Zealot and the Roach) which means that, combining these two points, if you're losing to them you're simply getting outplayed. I understand getting outplayed is frustrating, but you're not as good as you think. Balance is not your issue. Again, you don't play this game, do you. Perhaps you play at a really low level? Try watching some Starcraft 2 games. Hellbats have conal splash, do more dps, are tankier than hellions, and most of all, can be healed by medivacs. Hellbats are much harder to kill because of this, and this allows them the time to ravage your mineral line. Not only this, they do WAY more damage to non-light, unlike hellions which tickle light and can be handled by non-light units quite easily. Again, do you not play this game? You clearly don't understand how it is played. You realize the entire protoss ground army besides the stalker and chargelot move the same speed or slower than a hellbat, right? And chargelots are melee range.... and no, lots of stalkers in PvT is not good at all, unless you are trying to 1 base blink all in a gasless expand. Why do you keep trying to pin the balance discussion on my play? It's not some secret that hellbats are OP for cost that only I know about . When top Terran players admit hellbats are OP and how they are really lame in TvT as well, how does that have anything to do with me? It doesn't. From a spectator point of view, I've already seen many TvT games where each Terran just repeatedly hellbat dropped each other over and over, and man, is that ever a terrible viewing experience. It's like the muta vs muta wars in ZvZ atm but worse because Hellbats are so expendable. Flash seems to think Hellbats are pretty OP, why else is his TvT strategy to multi-prong drop hellbats all game long. You come off as a bad Terran player that doesn't really even play the game... I can't explain in... your comments are so out of touch with the game. Wait, I know.... you are just blindlly defending everything to do with your race, hoping to qualm the obvious needs for balance adjustments. How original? I barely ever face Hellbat drops or Hellbats in compositions on ladder, because a lot of Terrans on NA don't abuse them enough. Once they become more used, especially later in the game, blizzard will eventually wake up and nerf them. It's inevitable, but it would be nice if it was sooner rather than later. The only one "who doesn't play this game" or "is low level" is someone doesn't understand the basic fact that normal hellions are better at clearing minerals lines than Hellbats because, not only can they chase workers which hellbats can't, but also if workers run they line up. If you're losing all of your workers to Hellbats you're getting outplayed because normal hellions would do just as much damage or more, and do it faster; this means you're simply riding the placebo train and likely trying to justify areas where you lack. If you're losing to Hellbats in direct engagements when they are slow 2 range units then you're also getting outplayed. Period. Stop trying to take the high ground and pin your losses on balance, because not only do you have zero reasonable proof, but your logic isn't remotely consistent or valid and consists of unsourced claims (he said she said), bias, and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to accept reality. If you want some advise for the next time you attempt this try coming back with replays or something that has actual statistical significance like the below: Sorry man, but with medivac speed boost and micro, hellbats are just as good as chasing down workers as hellions, and they heal and do better splash and single target damage, meaning they can stick around longer and fight defenders far more effectively while killing just as many workers. That's why you see pros do hellbat drops far more often than hellion drops. Hard to talk any sense into this blind Terran defender. That Demigod guy is a moron. + Show Spoiler +1.) Ad hominem - check.
2.) Raging because he lost the argument - check.
3.) Warned by mods - check.
Poor fellow. As my actual points have yet to be responded to I will move on to other matters. Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 08:36 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 14 2013 08:05 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:24 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:20 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:10 ( bush wrote:
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
Talking about equal skill made me laugh. I guess you didnt watch any games of Wings of Liberty where players like JonnyRecco (no offense) could go head to head with top tier Code S terrans who practice 15 hours a day. Except this never happened. I only remember one series where he almost beat Keen and Keen is far from a top tier Korean. JRecco also got crushed by many foreigners of other races during this time. Reading comprehension: players like JonnyRecco, ie. relatively nameless foreign zergs suddenly beating Code S Terrans after the queen buff. Also, JonnyRecco crushing many foreigners during that time is relevant how? ZvX was broken, and ZvZ was based on either A) ling/bling coinflip, B) who got the better fungal. ZvZ is still looking poor, thus the spore buff against mutas. Maybe we'll see some changes to that mirror matchup thanks for that. Funny how you point out reading comprehension when you read my paragraph wrong. I said he got crushed BY them. I will actually concede ZvT was horribly broken back then. PvZ was actually very balanced (I would go as far as saying Protoss favoured for a little bit). lol, true say We do agree on the more important things though~ /edit Seriously, people arguing about hellbat drops are ridiculous. Top level players know how to deal with it. It looked OP in ... TvT, until Terrans themselves began to get anti-air like turrets to shut down the medivacs and then pick off the hellbats. Nothing indicates to me that protoss or zergs are unable to defend against it the same way. I'll keep an eye on more top level games to see how this tactic plays out. But people are prematurely reacting to hellbat drops effectiveness when so many players are not getting basic defenses. Terrans have to get turrets against Z cuz of mutas. Terrans have to get turrets against P cuz of oracles. I think it's only fair that Terrans can also threaten and force out similar defenses out of their opponents. At the risk of sounding whiny, a lot of Terran players don't realize just how good missile turrets are. I don't think it's imbalanced, but it is certainly a fact. Missile Turret: 27.9 DPS vs air, 100 minerals Spore Crawler: 17.4 DPS vs air, 125 minerals Photon Cannon: 16 DPS vs air or ground, 150 minerals Now I realize that Zerg and Protoss have Queens and warp-ins respectively to help augment their defense, but I don't really think "just get more static D" is a good solution if you're not a terran player. You need some, but honestly it's expensive and just not that good a lot of the time. Spore Crawler life: 400 Photon Cannon life: 150 + 150 (300) Missle Turret Life: 250 This means you need a lower critical mass of units to effectively one-shot turrets which of course drops DPS to 0; I'm not commenting on your actual argument, but when you make a comparison it bests to paint the entire picture as when you leave out details like this it wreaks bias.
For hellbat defense, it would be preferable have more dps rather than more hp.
But, those defenses are not just for hellbats. Good terrans will do bio-drops as well, and there, the extra hp will shine.
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On May 14 2013 09:03 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 08:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 14 2013 07:46 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 20:24 Whitewing wrote:On May 13 2013 19:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 16:39 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 14:44 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 12:33 Zanzabarr wrote:On May 13 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote:
[quote]
Hellbats do OP dps for cost. You can throw them away into mineral lines and basically never NOT get your money's worth. You only have to kill 4 probes to pay for them, and due to lost mining time you don't even have to kill 4 to pay for them. Very rarely will they ever do less damage than that, and you always have the chance to do devastating damage with a single drop.
The unit was designed to help terrans against mass chargelot, which is why they are a slower shorter range version of the hellion that is tankier and does a splash damage radius that is more effective against units in melee range. The mistake blizzard made was making the hellbat do 281% dps to non-light of its hellion counter part, making it do great dps to everything. It also does over 200% dps to light of a blue-flame hellion, making it completely shred light units like workers.
The unit does way too much aoe dps for a 100 mineral 2 supply unit that can be reactored out. Sure it requires an armory, but Terran gets an armory every game anyway for +2/+2 and +3/+3 upgrades, whether they make any hellbats or not. The thing needs a dps nerf badly.
Smart Terrans should be hellbat dropping all game, and throwing them into their composition against Toss so they can laugh at chargelots. Once the mineral dump chargelots are gone in PvT, there is just a gas expensive fragile army left over that can be run over.
Extreme Protoss bias, and it sounds like you're a bit bitter over losing to drops. Try building static defense. Aside from killer works, which normal hellions are already better at, Zealots are more effective as general purpose unit because of charge and speed while hellbats can die before doing anything because of 2 range and slow movement speed. On May 13 2013 09:25 Zanzabarr wrote: there is just a gas expensive fragile army I assure you no Protoss unit is "fragile" considering Protoss units have the best cost:life ratios in the game. Lol do you even play this game? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My opinion is based on facts, math, and watching a lot of high level starcraft where I've seen plenty of hellbat abuse already. The numbers don't lie. I'm talking in terms of context of the matchup when I talk about zealots and hellbats. The hellbats don't need to move fast because the zealots have to come to them, and when they do, they get demolished. Once that happens, the fragile expensive protoss army gets run over. Best cost:life ratios in the game? What game are you playing? You should do some research before you open your mouth. Zealots and tempest are the only thing protoss has that have lots of life for cost, and even then, it's not by much (hellbat has 135 and does more dps, and has splash. Roach is 75/25 and has 145). How is that relevant when the fragile toss army I am referring to is the stuff that isn't zealots? Hellbats are so stupidly cost effective right now, Terrans should be using them. Some high level terrans have already stated that they almost try not to use them because they know they have to be nerfed and will be nerfed. Static defense? Like I've already stated, hellbats are so cost effective, you can drop them to their death and they'll still be worth it. I could have two cannons in the mineral line at each base, and you'd still be able to zoom in with a medivac, drop them, not lose the medivac, and have the hellbats do massive damage before dying. Even Terrans complain of OP hellbats in TvT. Ironically you cite no "fact", and then transition into more ad hominem which is more or less all I need to know that you, unfortunately, have no argument aside from your unfounded balance whine combined with no rebuttal to my main point. Regular hellions are better at wiping mineral lines than Hellbats, so if you're losing workers to Hellbats then it's because of your own negligence as you would lose even more to normal hellions; furthermore with 2 range and extremely slow movement speed Hellbats are also extremely kitable in direct engagements (while being less "tanky" than the Zealot and the Roach) which means that, combining these two points, if you're losing to them you're simply getting outplayed. I understand getting outplayed is frustrating, but you're not as good as you think. Balance is not your issue. Again, you don't play this game, do you. Perhaps you play at a really low level? Try watching some Starcraft 2 games. Hellbats have conal splash, do more dps, are tankier than hellions, and most of all, can be healed by medivacs. Hellbats are much harder to kill because of this, and this allows them the time to ravage your mineral line. Not only this, they do WAY more damage to non-light, unlike hellions which tickle light and can be handled by non-light units quite easily. Again, do you not play this game? You clearly don't understand how it is played. You realize the entire protoss ground army besides the stalker and chargelot move the same speed or slower than a hellbat, right? And chargelots are melee range.... and no, lots of stalkers in PvT is not good at all, unless you are trying to 1 base blink all in a gasless expand. Why do you keep trying to pin the balance discussion on my play? It's not some secret that hellbats are OP for cost that only I know about . When top Terran players admit hellbats are OP and how they are really lame in TvT as well, how does that have anything to do with me? It doesn't. From a spectator point of view, I've already seen many TvT games where each Terran just repeatedly hellbat dropped each other over and over, and man, is that ever a terrible viewing experience. It's like the muta vs muta wars in ZvZ atm but worse because Hellbats are so expendable. Flash seems to think Hellbats are pretty OP, why else is his TvT strategy to multi-prong drop hellbats all game long. You come off as a bad Terran player that doesn't really even play the game... I can't explain in... your comments are so out of touch with the game. Wait, I know.... you are just blindlly defending everything to do with your race, hoping to qualm the obvious needs for balance adjustments. How original? I barely ever face Hellbat drops or Hellbats in compositions on ladder, because a lot of Terrans on NA don't abuse them enough. Once they become more used, especially later in the game, blizzard will eventually wake up and nerf them. It's inevitable, but it would be nice if it was sooner rather than later. The only one "who doesn't play this game" or "is low level" is someone doesn't understand the basic fact that normal hellions are better at clearing minerals lines than Hellbats because, not only can they chase workers which hellbats can't, but also if workers run they line up. If you're losing all of your workers to Hellbats you're getting outplayed because normal hellions would do just as much damage or more, and do it faster; this means you're simply riding the placebo train and likely trying to justify areas where you lack. If you're losing to Hellbats in direct engagements when they are slow 2 range units then you're also getting outplayed. Period. Stop trying to take the high ground and pin your losses on balance, because not only do you have zero reasonable proof, but your logic isn't remotely consistent or valid and consists of unsourced claims (he said she said), bias, and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to accept reality. If you want some advise for the next time you attempt this try coming back with replays or something that has actual statistical significance like the below: Sorry man, but with medivac speed boost and micro, hellbats are just as good as chasing down workers as hellions, and they heal and do better splash and single target damage, meaning they can stick around longer and fight defenders far more effectively while killing just as many workers. That's why you see pros do hellbat drops far more often than hellion drops. Hard to talk any sense into this blind Terran defender. That Demigod guy is a moron. + Show Spoiler +1.) Ad hominem - check.
2.) Raging because he lost the argument - check.
3.) Warned by mods - check.
Poor fellow. As my actual points have yet to be responded to I will move on to other matters. On May 14 2013 08:36 TrickyGilligan wrote:On May 14 2013 08:05 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:24 plogamer wrote:On May 14 2013 06:20 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 14 2013 06:10 ( bush wrote:
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
Talking about equal skill made me laugh. I guess you didnt watch any games of Wings of Liberty where players like JonnyRecco (no offense) could go head to head with top tier Code S terrans who practice 15 hours a day. Except this never happened. I only remember one series where he almost beat Keen and Keen is far from a top tier Korean. JRecco also got crushed by many foreigners of other races during this time. Reading comprehension: players like JonnyRecco, ie. relatively nameless foreign zergs suddenly beating Code S Terrans after the queen buff. Also, JonnyRecco crushing many foreigners during that time is relevant how? ZvX was broken, and ZvZ was based on either A) ling/bling coinflip, B) who got the better fungal. ZvZ is still looking poor, thus the spore buff against mutas. Maybe we'll see some changes to that mirror matchup thanks for that. Funny how you point out reading comprehension when you read my paragraph wrong. I said he got crushed BY them. I will actually concede ZvT was horribly broken back then. PvZ was actually very balanced (I would go as far as saying Protoss favoured for a little bit). lol, true say We do agree on the more important things though~ /edit Seriously, people arguing about hellbat drops are ridiculous. Top level players know how to deal with it. It looked OP in ... TvT, until Terrans themselves began to get anti-air like turrets to shut down the medivacs and then pick off the hellbats. Nothing indicates to me that protoss or zergs are unable to defend against it the same way. I'll keep an eye on more top level games to see how this tactic plays out. But people are prematurely reacting to hellbat drops effectiveness when so many players are not getting basic defenses. Terrans have to get turrets against Z cuz of mutas. Terrans have to get turrets against P cuz of oracles. I think it's only fair that Terrans can also threaten and force out similar defenses out of their opponents. At the risk of sounding whiny, a lot of Terran players don't realize just how good missile turrets are. I don't think it's imbalanced, but it is certainly a fact. Missile Turret: 27.9 DPS vs air, 100 minerals Spore Crawler: 17.4 DPS vs air, 125 minerals Photon Cannon: 16 DPS vs air or ground, 150 minerals Now I realize that Zerg and Protoss have Queens and warp-ins respectively to help augment their defense, but I don't really think "just get more static D" is a good solution if you're not a terran player. You need some, but honestly it's expensive and just not that good a lot of the time. Spore Crawler life: 400 Photon Cannon life: 150 + 150 (300) Missle Turret Life: 250 This means you need a lower critical mass of units to effectively one-shot turrets which of course drops DPS to 0; I'm not commenting on your actual argument, but when you make a comparison it bests to paint the entire picture as when you leave out details like this it wreaks bias. For hellbat defense, it would be preferable have more dps rather than more hp. But, those defenses are not just for hellbats. Good terrans will do bio-drops as well, and there, the extra hp will shine.
That is true, however in the context of defending drops this might suggest that Terran is more vulnerable to flyers and less to aerial runbys, however I believe this is augmented to be even when you consider that canons/spines will attack whatever unloads from a drop while Terran has no gasless+supplyless static defence for the natural and main.
I'm not making a comment on his argument though. I was just pointing out those details.
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Katowice25012 Posts
This thread is going off the rails so for now just discuss the actual patch here.
We can argue about proposed changes later if they make another update.
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EPT
