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On January 31 2013 01:57 Kronen wrote:
While I don't value the skill set required to rank up to Master's doing cheesy builds, I respect it as an accomplishment. If you glean enjoyment out of what you do, keep doing it! Who am I to tell you whether what you're doing is wrong? In fact, I'd say you're valuable as a practice partner because you're a great person to benchmark against.
I view the skillset you're developing as somewhat similar to trying to play LoL up to the 1800-1900 level. Does it require game-sense/knowledge? Sure. Does it require a modicum of technical skill? Eh, sure. It doesn't require the symphony of mental discipline, coordination, awareness and execution that higher level Starcraft requires, and because of that I don't value the pursuit. I do respect it as an accomplishment though.
You have to remember that while 7rr isn't a great example of getting to masters doing a cheesy build, something like 2 rax is because the micro and execution that you have to nail dead on every time isn't always easy, and is a skill set you will use in macro play as well.
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On January 31 2013 02:01 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:57 Kronen wrote:
While I don't value the skill set required to rank up to Master's doing cheesy builds, I respect it as an accomplishment. If you glean enjoyment out of what you do, keep doing it! Who am I to tell you whether what you're doing is wrong? In fact, I'd say you're valuable as a practice partner because you're a great person to benchmark against.
I view the skillset you're developing as somewhat similar to trying to play LoL up to the 1800-1900 level. Does it require game-sense/knowledge? Sure. Does it require a modicum of technical skill? Eh, sure. It doesn't require the symphony of mental discipline, coordination, awareness and execution that higher level Starcraft requires, and because of that I don't value the pursuit. I do respect it as an accomplishment though. You have to remember that while 7rr isn't a great example of getting to masters doing a cheesy build, something like 2 rax is because the micro and execution that you have to nail dead on every time isn't always easy, and is a skill set you will use in macro play as well.
the 7rr was just an example post of how I interpreted the meta game and used the knowledge on the ladder. With that what match ups are you using the 2 rax on the ladder, what form of 2 rax, and why is it strong in this current meta game?
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If you win, you win. Yes, you're winning because you're taking advantage of current trends and mindset, so by definition you're 'metagaming'. But this thread doesn't seem to be about 'metagaming' anymore, and degenerated into whether or not you should be 'cheesing' your way to masters.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with you winning with this method. Will you frustrate opponent looking to practice longer-game macro mechanics when you do this? Most likely. And I suppose by no means are you a very flexible player. But you're aware of the flaws of only practicing early / midgame transition. You're aware that you're "apm isn't masters level", among other limitations. I applaud you for knowing yourself so well, which is something I feel is sorely lacking among most players.
People have different priorities with this game. Some people like to explore the vast possibilities and branches of this game, maybe develop and use interesting strategies. Some people like winning, turning the game into a science, studying the details to map out a win. There's no wrong way to play this game, because there's no right way. I honestly don't think other people should be telling you how to play this game.
That being said, just to stay on topic. There's more then one way to to take advantage of the metagame. Knowing that they will fast expand, and then expanding even greedier is also a way to take advantage of the metagame.
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On January 31 2013 02:47 kiero wrote:
If you win, you win. Yes, you're winning because you're taking advantage of current trends and mindset, so by definition you're 'metagaming'. But this thread doesn't seem to be about 'metagaming' anymore, and degenerated into whether or not you should be 'cheesing' your way to masters.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with you winning with this method. Will you frustrate opponent looking to practice longer-game macro mechanics when you do this? Most likely. And I suppose by no means are you a very flexible player. But you're aware of the flaws of only practicing early / midgame transition. You're aware that you're "apm isn't masters level", among other limitations. I applaud you for knowing yourself so well, which is something I feel is sorely lacking among most players.
People have different priorities with this game. Some people like to explore the vast possibilities and branches of this game, maybe develop and use interesting strategies. Some people like winning, turning the game into a science, studying the details to map out a win. There's no wrong way to play this game, because there's no right way. I honestly don't think other people should be telling you how to play this game.
Slowly trying to get the thread onto the track I originally intended, created a new thread devoted to the issue of cheesing to get higher up at this location http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396124
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The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
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On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that meta gaming is not a one trick pony style, those who meta game change their play style as the meta game changes, the 7rr I posted as an example if suddenly 75% of people where expecting and where ready for it I would not be doing it, I would be doing another style that gives me an innate leg up from the get go based on what the majority of the population is doing.
The point of this thread was supposed to be the positives of meta gaming to go up the ladder as well as people posting their opinions of the current meta game to help players who want to get higher on the ladder through a method which is counter to what the current norm is. People believe these hard set definitions of Macro = skill, Early aggression = Cheesy player who will never get better. However I address that issue in another thread that I have linked several times.
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On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
Well in TvT, what I'd you abuse the very greedy (at least on the foreign servers) metagame at the moment, by being greedier yourself. Then you learn micro and crisis management, from defending people who try to all in against your build and you also learn macro, because you are setting yourself up fantastically for a macro game.
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On January 31 2013 03:13 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead! Well in TvT, what I'd you abuse the very greedy (at least on the foreign servers) metagame at the moment, by being greedier yourself. Then you learn micro and crisis management, from defending people who try to all in against your build and you also learn macro, because you are setting yourself up fantastically for a macro game.
The macro abuse of meta game is fun as well, can be shown by many terran players especially Thorzain and Flash when they take ultra fast thirds because people do not go for the Early-Midgame pressure as much.
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I know it's not a guide but... can u post some replays vs terran? I think 1 base is too obvious and they will scan and see the warren.
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I have an account that I made that I intended to only 6 pool, regardless of map or race or anything. I got that account to rank 1 platinum before I stopped.
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On January 30 2013 16:49 WikidSik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters. .... if ur masters, then ur masters one way or another.
And that is why league =/= skill.
I wish they would just remove ranks, people doing stupid shit like this to get some fancy league icon instead of actually learning and getting really good at the game is what makes eu/na ladder such a terrible practice environment.
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Holy crap people are a bit stuck up about the 'beautiful macro' games and stuff. Winning is winning and figuring out the meta game is just a big of a talent as macroing is. The player losing to 7 roach rushes is NOT a good player, they are generally taking calculated risks which although is good for tournaments, it is not the case for ladder play. Ladder play should bridge the line between safe and greedy and not too far into one section because that is when risks occur. Hyper agressive, cheesing or whatever you want to call it keeps the game honest and is a huge part of the games balance.
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I don't understand why anyone would play like this: How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
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On January 31 2013 06:55 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would play like this: How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
For starters winning bo3 using meta game play is no harder then winning a standard bo3, it goes into mind games knowing your opponent and sendng in misleading information to make them think you are or arnt committing no early aggression, as for calling meta gaming a coin flip style is a post of minor truth mixed in with general ignorance. A great way of saying what meta gaming is, is rock paper scissors, if you think you only have a 33% chance of throwing the winning hand you dont understand just how complex it really is. I have already made a thread devoted to explaining how cheese is more complex and legit then people like you believe please read it before claiming that chees eis nothing more then a coinflip... this is my final reponse to you "skill less cheeser" posters if you want to claim that cheese is skillless please do so in the "art of cheesing thread"
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So you play people that dont scout. You cant rid the scout of seeing no fe, gas up, and warren going down. One base zerg vs p/t shows lack of scouting/follow up scouting in my mind.
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When I first started playing I quickly got sick of losing to gimmicky strategies in low levels of play such as DTs, cannon rushes, baneling busts, and bunker rushes, especially when I saw my friends (T and P) get into platinum right off the bat. I created a roach rush that hits the ramp at 5:15. I won 9/10 games in 6 minutes from bronze to platinum until I had to start transitioning from the rush into a midgame.
What I realize now is that I was legitimately a bronze player to begin with. However, by repeatedly doing this rush strategy, I learned to macro perfectly up to 36 supply. That means nailing every drone and overlord on time and being consistent. This is quite significant in bronze-gold league. Turns out, this cheesy build actually made me a better player.
Eventually I learned to apply the same diligence to 2 base builds, and now 3 base economic openers. The highest I've reached is top 8 masters.
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On January 31 2013 07:58 cywinr wrote:
When I first started playing I quickly got sick of losing to gimmicky strategies in low levels of play such as DTs, cannon rushes, baneling busts, and bunker rushes, especially when I saw my friends (T and P) get into platinum right off the bat. I created a roach rush that hits the ramp at 5:15. I won 9/10 games in 6 minutes from bronze to platinum until I had to start transitioning from the rush into a midgame.
What I realize now is that I was legitimately a bronze player to begin with. However, by repeatedly doing this rush strategy, I learned to macro perfectly up to 36 supply. That means nailing every drone and overlord on time and being consistent. This is quite significant in bronze-gold league. Turns out, this cheesy build actually made me a better player.
Eventually I learned to apply the same diligence to 2 base builds, and now 3 base economic openers. The highest I've reached is top 8 masters.
Good mechanics are needed for all builds macro and aggressive :-D
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Im Having trouble executing this build against Zerg.
-How many spines is too many to attack into?
-Is it worth it to run past the spines?
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On January 31 2013 08:02 prOphet910 wrote:
Im Having trouble executing this build against Zerg.
-How many spines is too many to attack into?
-Is it worth it to run past the spines?
This is not a strategy thread for an individual build, feel free to pm me for advice on this build. However with my 7 roaches i always skirt around or run by spines.
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
If players can't scout such a simple strategy then it's their faulth and they shouldn't be in masters in the first place.
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EPT
