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Hello, I go by the battle.net tag Fluid I just got off of a 49-12 ladder climb going from low diamond to 300 Point Masters and I would like to share my findings on how to climb the ladder and also have other input their opinions of What the current meta game is and how to abuse it for an easy time climbing the ladder.
First off those who do not know what a meta game is, it is what the majority of people are doing on the ladder at this time the meta game is determined by the players of the game more so then the units of the game as shown by the fact that a meta game can shift without the units changing. Inside of this thread we will be looking at the meta game of the ladder not tournaments. The ladder has a different meta game from tournaments since it is a series of best of 1'S instead of best of 3, 5, 7.
Disclaimers: This thread is about What the meta Game is and how to abuse it, no claims of imbalance in this thread just What most people are doing and when it is exploitable. As well this is a thread of how to abuse the meta game climbing the ladder using this method does not always make you a better player (such as the person who 6 pool'd Into Grandmasters) and as such does not guarantee that abusing these weakness will work in tournaments (as noted they are different meta games). Many of the builds that are able to abuse meta games can be considered "Hyper aggressive" (Cheesy) and often rely on misinformation and deceit.
Post rules: First include where your practice against the meta game is, what race you play, then state what the meta game is, and finally post how you believe that point can be exploited.
Fun Note: Those who watch this thread beginning to end should be able to see how the meta game has shifted overtime .
And the final brick of text my own post:
NOTE: This is meant to be an example of reading the current meta game and how I found a way to abuse it, this is not a "This is why my strategy is great thread", I wish to see how other meta gamers read the meta and how they react to it so that all gamers may share their knowledge.
My practice of the meta game came from high platinum all the Way through to mid masters during my several day ladder binge across 1/26 - 1/29. During this entire binge I was playing as zerg. The meta game I had noticed through all 61 games I played was that right now everyone is very very greedy. Such as protoss Nexus First, terran command center first, zerg 15 hatch...etc. How I have found to heavily abuse this greedy play. Against all 3 races I have been using the same opening of Overpool Into 7 roach Rush (I stop making attacking units after the First 7 roaches), the following is what it works for the meta of all 3 races.
Protoss: Many Protoss you just make them think you are going to expand by making 2 lings to stop a pylon and send out a drone to make it look like you Want to expand, from there send out your lings to control the watch towers and prevent scouting. Either the toss will take the bait Only build 1 cannon your roaches show up and g.g. or they feel like something is fishy or scout well throw down 2-3 extra cannons and they are able to defend which moves me Into step 2 (listed below).
Terran: Many terran are opening up either CC First or 1 rax Into CC very easy as long as you kill the first scv when your 7 roaches pop you can just walk Into their Natural walk past the bunker and kill almost every worker with just the 7 roaches. Marines are almost useless against roaches and the Hellions that every terran is making against zergs are useless. If they did not fast expand I use an overlord to get high ground vision snipe a supply depot and run past the bunker they have at the top. Assuming the terran doesn't gg I move Into step 2 (listed below).
Zerg: This one is probably the most straight forward and easy to mess with, almost all zergs are opening ling Into ling speed with banes, lings are terrible against roaches when the roaches kite so either A they vastly over produce spines to keep up with you kiting and running around their base, B they 15 hatched insta gg, C with Only lings you get to keep them on 1 base ling Which in step 2 makes Life very easy.
Step 2: All good hyper aggressive builds should still have a follow up to them in case all else fails so either you are playing from behind (most people will overreact expecting more units then the First 7 roaches so you arn't that far behind) or you will use this to get more ahead. How I do this is after my First 7 roaches I pull 2 drones off gas drop a hatch and begin drone production only resuming unit production when my 7 roaches are Dead and a counter attack is imminent. Which leads Into a pretty normal Game after.
This build got me from High plat - Mid Master MMR with an almost Perfect 4-1 win ratio (49-12) I play with around 100 apm and I find myself unable to play faster so I make up for my physical Talent at the Game by abusing the meta Game in order to level the field.
I am interested in seeing What you all see the current meta Game as and how to abuse it! (sorry for random capitals randomly strewed through main post accidently hit TLPD-ize long time TL reader first time thread maker ^_^!)
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Using cheesy builds to climb ladder- useful since march 31 1998.
Learning how to abuse other players opening is only good if you can actually play the macro game at that level. As soon as players figure out how to defend your looking at losing a few 100 elo points. But hey, if you think getting that pretty star next to your name means you improved, by all means- go for it.
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this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
.... if ur masters, then ur masters one way or another.
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On January 30 2013 16:42 Dagan159 wrote:
Using cheesy builds to climb ladder- useful since march 31 1998.
Learning how to abuse other players opening is only good if you can actually play the macro game at that level. As soon as players figure out how to defend your looking at losing a few 100 elo points. But hey, if you think getting that pretty star next to your name means you improved, by all means- go for it.
I agree and disagree, I agree as shown above that winning through very aggressive builds does not mean that you are a better player, however I disagree because if someone is able to win an entire high level tournament (including bo3 and bo5) without going into a single macro game isn't that person still the superior player?
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Exclusively Meta-gaming people on ladder is not going to bring long-term success through mechanical/strategical development... that's why you only really see it done in BoX tournament scenarios when one guy tries to get into the other guy's head. For example-- even if you can get a good win rate on ladder by blind-countering immo sentry every time, it doesn't mean you are actually getting better.
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On January 30 2013 16:50 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Exclusively Meta-gaming people on ladder is not going to bring long-term success through mechanical/strategical development... that's why you only really see it done in box tournament scenarios when one guy tries to get into the other guy's head.
That is the point of this thread to help us meta gamers be able to share information to be able to adapt and evolve as the meta switches! ^_^
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
but your ranking/points equates to your skillfullness. or at least your ability to win, which is all 'skill' is in a competitive game
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While it's true that you are abusing the meta game to get you into masters, it doesn't really mean anything. Going from platinum to masters in three days isn't really possible unless you do it the way you did. And if you were to start playing standard again, as in not 7RR every game, your MMR would drop like a rock again, since your macro past the 5 min mark hasn't improved and your overall game knowledge ditto.
Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up.
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On January 30 2013 16:49 WikidSik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters. .... if ur masters, then ur masters one way or another.
I agree. SC2 (like say, Magic: The Gathering) is a game about winning, not NR20.
(MTG actually has tournaments with prize money over $40k for first place, $20k for second, most of the same people win. It's all about making the most OP deck + taking into account the current meta.)
Anyway, great OP. You did a good job at analyzing other player's play style and using that to get into masters.
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Nice thread, liked it and find it very interesting.
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Macro game or not; win is a win. If you are masters you are masters.
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When i was breaking into masters I kept on losing to the terrans who 2 raxed me every single game. I think i calculated it and out of like 16 games of pvt 14 of them were two rax. I lost pretty much all 14 of them by 1 gate fe. I said screw it, i'm not going to scout and go 3 gate expand. I went from diamond to masters in 1 day.
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Should this be in SC2 Strategy section ? You have good point about ladder games but in general, you can't go far with it than mid master like Shartugal posted above
Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up.
I don't think you could put the name ' metagame of ladder ' for this thread, since this is just like more a trick in ladder and people know it well like 2Rax 6Pool to GM. " Zerg ladder trick " soundz better and does fit better 
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A win is indeed a win but ultimately you are just digging yourself into a hole, i went from platinum to masters league in like 2 days back when the 5 roach rush was all the rage, i then proceeded to get my ass handed to me constantly, seeing as my macro game was not on par with the level of competition i was facing, it's taken me roughly 2 or 3 seasons to drop down enough to feel like im competing fairly. I feel like winning with cheesy builds is ultimately fruitless seeing as you are learning nothing and only artificially raising your e-peen.
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I also did well in EU ladder for a time doing exclusively roach rushes. Would probably still work.
Most players follow the metagame from the professional scene. I suppose they want to play the long epic games and come into them with an advantage from the professional's optimized build order.
Nothing wrong with that, but often times when these people lose to a roach rush they will dismiss it as the cheesing of a skilless faggot, and move on to the exact same thing in the next game. Not just ladder heroes like me, but even some profilic streamers I've watched who practice in order to get tournament success do this, considering a game to be a waste of time if the opponent cheeses.
That's just wrong, by cheesing you get better at cheesing, and by defending cheeses and adapting to them, you get better at defending cheeses. No game is a waste of time. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider yourself a better player than the cheeser if you don't have a way of dealing with one-base plays and simply take shortcuts to the late game.
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On January 30 2013 17:16 foxj wrote:Should this be in SC2 Strategy section ? You have good point about ladder games but in general, you can't go far with it than mid master like Shartugal posted above Show nested quote +Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up. I don't think you could put the name ' metagame of ladder ' for this thread, since this is just like more a trick in ladder and people know it well like 2Rax 6Pool to GM. " Zerg ladder trick " soundz better and does fit better
Thread was originally intended to see what people on the ladder where reading the meta game and how they found their way to abuse it, my build was just supposed to be an example post then the thread got a bit side tracked  And I 100% agree with the idea that meta gaming is just a "trick" to gain points because almost every game is decided before even going into it depending on person to person if you will win. But to me that's an exciting aspect of sc2 going into a game saying "This is my trap I want to make this person fall into it or die trying" as well as reading the meta game to give myself the advantage in 90% of games before they even start!
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On January 30 2013 17:19 Tanukki wrote:
I also did well in EU ladder for a time doing exclusively roach rushes. Would probably still work.
Most players follow the metagame from the professional scene. I suppose they want to play the long epic games and come into them with an advantage from the professional's optimized build order.
Nothing wrong with that, but often times when these people lose to a roach rush they will dismiss it as the cheesing of a skilless faggot, and move on to the exact same thing in the next game. Not just ladder heroes like me, but even some profilic streamers I've watched who practice in order to get tournament success do this, considering a game to be a waste of time if the opponent cheeses.
That's just wrong, by cheesing you get better at cheesing, and by defending cheeses and adapting to them, you get better at defending cheeses. No game is a waste of time. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider yourself a better player than the cheeser if you don't have a way of dealing with one-base plays and simply take shortcuts to the late game.
I agree to a point, but i think the discussion at hand is about exclusively cheesing to reach a skill level that is effectively not your own.
Cheesing is a good skill toi have, but not a good skill to utilize in order to artificially inflate your league placement.
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A win is a win. If you're in Masters League, you're a Masters player. By definition, being a Masters player doesn't necessarily mean you will win any tournaments, which you won't if all you do is cheese.
All it means is that you have the ability to cheese out ~98% of the SC2 ladder population, which shouldn't take away anything from the title itself.
Lets not confuse "ability to win consistently in macro games" with "ability to win, period"
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On January 30 2013 17:24 Pigge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 17:19 Tanukki wrote:
I also did well in EU ladder for a time doing exclusively roach rushes. Would probably still work.
Most players follow the metagame from the professional scene. I suppose they want to play the long epic games and come into them with an advantage from the professional's optimized build order.
Nothing wrong with that, but often times when these people lose to a roach rush they will dismiss it as the cheesing of a skilless faggot, and move on to the exact same thing in the next game. Not just ladder heroes like me, but even some profilic streamers I've watched who practice in order to get tournament success do this, considering a game to be a waste of time if the opponent cheeses.
That's just wrong, by cheesing you get better at cheesing, and by defending cheeses and adapting to them, you get better at defending cheeses. No game is a waste of time. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider yourself a better player than the cheeser if you don't have a way of dealing with one-base plays and simply take shortcuts to the late game. I agree to a point, but i think the discussion at hand is about exclusively cheesing to reach a skill level that is effectively not your own. Cheesing is a good skill toi have, but not a good skill to utilize in order to artificially inflate your league placement.
What is wrong with using "Cheesy builds" I have never quite understood why all the hate against them, I understand that they are easier to execute but they are also easy to stop when properly scouted... A good "cheese" needs to have misdirection, deceit and a follow up, as well as a very strong read on the meta, I believe that it can be looked at as just a different skill set than normal macro players use.
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if you cheese your way up a few leagues then you're stuck cheesing for a long time or else you get smashed pretty hard
if your idea of having fun with sc2 is cheesing every game gl
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On January 30 2013 17:26 Cocoabean wrote:
A win is a win. If you're in Masters League, you're a Masters player. By definition, being a Masters player doesn't necessarily mean you will win any tournaments, which you won't if all you do is cheese.
All it means is that you have the ability to cheese out ~98% of the SC2 ladder population, which shouldn't take away anything from the title itself.
Lets not confuse "ability to win consistently in macro games" with "ability to win, period"
i agree completely with this, but the goal i have in SC2 is to become a better player (occasionally to have fun), if you are a cheesy master player, then by all means you are a master player that just happens to win with cheeses.
However i myself would feel unsatisfied and would probably find myself going through the motions each game instead of actually improving.
This of course takes nothing away from your argument, you are 100% correct a cheesing master earned his title.
But in my opinion and this is only valid for me and people that feel like me i would feel undeserving and unsatisfied.
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You basically abuse players who actually do not know how to scout & respond either, but just copy a specific build order template and that works fine when matched up against someone else who does the same. I think not being able to find out what your opponent is doing is one of the bigger tells that someone does not really know what and/or why he is doing what he's doing, so please by all means continue abusing it hardcore so hopefully those players learn it's vital to scout properly and learn how to respond to different situations...
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
This is not really an abuse of metagame, more just an abuse of your opponents not knowing how to scout properly.
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On January 30 2013 17:36 dani` wrote:
You basically abuse players who actually do not know how to scout & respond either, but just copy a specific build order template and that works fine when matched up against someone else who does the same. I think not being able to find out what your opponent is doing is one of the bigger tells that someone does not really know what and/or why he is doing what he's doing, so please by all means continue abusing it hardcore so hopefully those players learn it's vital to scout properly and learn how to respond to different situations...
Sometimes scouting can work against you as well . The prime example of a strong cheese would be in my build the ZvP where I even sometimes go as far as doing a hatch cancel to feed lies to my opponent and then show up with 6 roaches a well executed cheese is more intricate then just reading the 7rr build order and executing it, however I will make a new thread devoted to just my view on cheese and how it can be more intricate than most macro builds, and how many macro builds are cheese themselves! This thread is for the meta gamers which is slightly different from cheesing.
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On January 30 2013 17:21 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 17:16 foxj wrote:Should this be in SC2 Strategy section ? You have good point about ladder games but in general, you can't go far with it than mid master like Shartugal posted above Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up. I don't think you could put the name ' metagame of ladder ' for this thread, since this is just like more a trick in ladder and people know it well like 2Rax 6Pool to GM. " Zerg ladder trick " soundz better and does fit better Thread was originally intended to see what people on the ladder where reading the meta game and how they found their way to abuse it, my build was just supposed to be an example post then the thread got a bit side tracked And I 100% agree with the idea that meta gaming is just a "trick" to gain points because almost every game is decided before even going into it depending on person to person if you will win. But to me that's an exciting aspect of sc2 going into a game saying "This is my trap I want to make this person fall into it or die trying" as well as reading the meta game to give myself the advantage in 90% of games before they even start!
Metagame isn't a trick to gain points, it is how the game should be played in a matchups. Tricks don't work against any player who have better scouting or do different opening. It could make you to master because NA has lower skill ceiling compares to others, like it won't help you get out of plat on KR server where has the same metagame lol
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On January 30 2013 17:41 foxj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 17:21 Hezzina wrote:On January 30 2013 17:16 foxj wrote:Should this be in SC2 Strategy section ? You have good point about ladder games but in general, you can't go far with it than mid master like Shartugal posted above Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up. I don't think you could put the name ' metagame of ladder ' for this thread, since this is just like more a trick in ladder and people know it well like 2Rax 6Pool to GM. " Zerg ladder trick " soundz better and does fit better Thread was originally intended to see what people on the ladder where reading the meta game and how they found their way to abuse it, my build was just supposed to be an example post then the thread got a bit side tracked And I 100% agree with the idea that meta gaming is just a "trick" to gain points because almost every game is decided before even going into it depending on person to person if you will win. But to me that's an exciting aspect of sc2 going into a game saying "This is my trap I want to make this person fall into it or die trying" as well as reading the meta game to give myself the advantage in 90% of games before they even start! Metagame isn't a trick to gain points, it is how the game should be played in a matchups. Tricks don't work against any player who have better scouting or do different opening. It could make you to master because NA has lower skill ceiling compares to others, like it won't help you get out of plat on KR server where has the same metagame lol
that post was talking about "Meta gaming" which is the act of using the knowledge of the meta game.
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You have a star icon but aside from that there's nothing that is going to earn you respect. In fact you'll lose to players from inferiour leagues in macro games and when they play safely. A player who got to masters by macroing won't lose as easily.
The reason why you earn less respect in my book is that the amount of skill required to execute an allin is sometimes less than the amount of skill that it takes to hold an allin. Also you only have to play well the first couple of minutes instead of 15ish minutes with multiple bases and factors that require attention.
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On January 30 2013 17:43 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 17:41 foxj wrote:On January 30 2013 17:21 Hezzina wrote:On January 30 2013 17:16 foxj wrote:Should this be in SC2 Strategy section ? You have good point about ladder games but in general, you can't go far with it than mid master like Shartugal posted above Your little trick isn't going to get you any further than mid masters, because that should be the level where people know how to react to the information they acquire through scouting. If you actually were to abuse the meta game to improve your ladder rank, it would a lot of sense if you had the fundamentals to back it up. I don't think you could put the name ' metagame of ladder ' for this thread, since this is just like more a trick in ladder and people know it well like 2Rax 6Pool to GM. " Zerg ladder trick " soundz better and does fit better Thread was originally intended to see what people on the ladder where reading the meta game and how they found their way to abuse it, my build was just supposed to be an example post then the thread got a bit side tracked And I 100% agree with the idea that meta gaming is just a "trick" to gain points because almost every game is decided before even going into it depending on person to person if you will win. But to me that's an exciting aspect of sc2 going into a game saying "This is my trap I want to make this person fall into it or die trying" as well as reading the meta game to give myself the advantage in 90% of games before they even start! Metagame isn't a trick to gain points, it is how the game should be played in a matchups. Tricks don't work against any player who have better scouting or do different opening. It could make you to master because NA has lower skill ceiling compares to others, like it won't help you get out of plat on KR server where has the same metagame lol that post was talking about "Meta gaming" which is the act of using the knowledge of the meta game.
Ok but with better scouting the act of using the knowledge becomes useless trick :D Might work on somewhere people don't scout and blindly play. I hope you get my point I want to say your builds aren't nothing but trick. When you can go high Master on NA or even high diamond on KR I migh sorry for my posts.
And thus about abusing the metagame, the tricks work in early game but what if the opponents go very strange and different builds ? it becomes a toss coin trick
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On January 30 2013 17:27 Hezzina wrote:
What is wrong with using "Cheesy builds" I have never quite understood why all the hate against them, I understand that they are easier to execute but they are also easy to stop when properly scouted... A good "cheese" needs to have misdirection, deceit and a follow up, as well as a very strong read on the meta, I believe that it can be looked at as just a different skill set than normal macro players use.
The wrong is when we loose to it^^
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I've never understood people who capitalize random words in a paragraph for no reason.
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nice thread.
As for the poll, you're in masters league, so you're masters. You may decide which strategy to use. I can see what people mean when they say you're not really a masters' player, but i don't really think that's the best way to look at it. Being masters is defined by what league you are in. On the other hand, there is 'how good a player is'. Obviously, someone who got into masters by using the same cheese over and over again, is specialising in that particular cheese. Even if he's in masters league, i'd say that he's most probably overall a worse player then other masters' players or maybe even diamonds. He's a specialist. Not every build is cheesy in this; pressure builds are not, blind all ins are, all ins after scout are not. (my definition of cheese, please keep in mind when reading this comment. This definition may be totally different from others, please don't let it distract you)
Such aggressive play is not really my style, and i don't care enough for ladder rank to abuse standard play.
Edit: i think i misunderstood the thread slightly. It looked different because of the poll :/
I don't really abuse standard play, because i don't really know a lot of aspects of it. When i play, i just try some random things, which most probably end in a horrible execution of some sort. I don't hesitate to all-in when i feel i see a weakness in someone's defence. I feel like i'm understanding the game a bit better when i analyse replays with those situations in it.
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The poll is pretty pointless IMO. There is no such thing as "master-level skill" or whatever, and your example shows that quite clearly. So yes, you are a "master player" but that actually doesn't mean anything above the fact that you are in master league.
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Ok since this thread was getting way derailed from my original purpose (thinking more and more I should have put it in strategy section), I have created a thread in the defence of cheese and for those who want to argue that is still a skill less level of play, this thread can be found at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396124.
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I am sorry, but in my opinion you are thinking waaaaaay to high of yourself. You just use a build that was "en vogue" in early 2011 and since it is rarely used, you can catch people by surprise with it and collect some easy wins.
Thats fine, but i would not call it "exploitation of the metagame".
Its just using an old, yet still rather effective early all-innish build to collect some easy wins.
*Edit* The poll makes no sense until you define the term "masters player". Blizzards Definition is beeing the top 3% of all ladder players. If you go by this definition, the answer is simple. If you are in masters league -> you are a "masters player". As you can beat 97% of the ladder players in a bo1-setting with a probability >= 0.51
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Your experiment only shows that the ladder in NA is terrible. You have ofc earned your rank, gratz on the star :D.
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Why do you capitalise the first letter of random words?! OH MY GOD.
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This has nothing to do with metagaming, unless not scouting is the new hot thing.
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A win is a win and if you are in Master league you are a Masters player. Still, there are tons of Diamond players better than low Master!
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I didn't read anything new in the op.. just the same old "cheese ur way to higher leagues to satisfy ur epeen.."
oh well, as long as you enjoy the games u play, all is fine!
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Imo on Ladder a win is a win, in order to stop raging from losing to cheese long ago I trained myself to think
that if someone just owned me in under 10 minutes i'm obviously not good enough to face them in a macro game so its a GG no hard feelings
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I think this whole discussion is stupid. People who claim that ''players in master with platinum skill'' is a problem seriously need to analyse them selfs. If you keep on dying to plat level all ins as a master player, then its generally do to one of the following reasons.
1. You play too greedy.
2. You don't execute your build very well.
If the first, then you are playing just as cheesy as the one who is cheesing. If the second(which is IMO generally the biggest problem) then you obviously only have yourself to blame for losing.
Every player got their strenght and weakness. Your weakness might be bad micro and/or scouting and decision making in the early game.. This players strenght is obviously his ability to make a very nicely disigned build while his weakness is his late game and mechanics. Still he is masters and master is and will always be masters.
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On January 30 2013 16:49 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:42 Dagan159 wrote:
Using cheesy builds to climb ladder- useful since march 31 1998.
Learning how to abuse other players opening is only good if you can actually play the macro game at that level. As soon as players figure out how to defend your looking at losing a few 100 elo points. But hey, if you think getting that pretty star next to your name means you improved, by all means- go for it. I agree and disagree, I agree as shown above that winning through very aggressive builds does not mean that you are a better player, however I disagree because if someone is able to win an entire high level tournament (including bo3 and bo5) without going into a single macro game isn't that person still the superior player?
Only if his cheese was scouted in time, then yes. Otherwise no.
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Somebody call Chill
Win is a win, if that's all you care about, be my guest, but you will have to learn other stuff if you want to keep progressing and then your rating will drop like a rock.
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OP what planet are you from?
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
Damn right. You can abuse the meta game all you want, you're not actually a better player. Once the meta game shifts and things get harder to abuse, you'll just fall back down to copper league like you deserve.
Instead of following this guys' advice and blindly playing against the metagame to pick up free wins, learn to scout and multitask. You figure out what your opponent is doing, metagame or not, you learn what is effective against it, and you make sure you have better overall macro and unit control. Then, you take a clean win or you improve while you lose.
I'll agree that in a tournament setting, a win is a win. There is a purpose to cheesing and mindgames. On the ladder, cheating the metagame isn't a mind game, it's an all or nothing tactic that takes no skill whatsoever. It's just to pick up a free win. On ladder a win means nothing, the point is to improve at the game so you can consistently win. 'Masters' is a meaningless title, much like grandmasters. For example, many cannon rush to GM, and while potentially hilarious, I would never respect such an individual and claim he is a skilled Starcraft 2 player.
So if you just want to be masters so you can stroke your e-peen in front of you friends, whatever, abuse the metagame all you want (but I still think you're a sad individual). If you actually want to improve at the game, ACKNOWLEDGE the metagame and be quick to indentify when a player is playing standard, and use that knowledge to get ahead by cutting some corners like a faster third or skipping detection in favor of an extra upgrade. Little things. Not like, OH PROTOSS IS DOING THAT LATE WALL AND IS GOING TO MOVE OUT WITH HIS ZEALOT, SLOW LING ALL IN!!!!!!!! Or take any opportunity you can to do a roach all in like OP is suggesting.
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I don't know why there is a topic for this. I think its quite simple: If you are satisfied with the way you got into master, fine, you are a masters players, be happy with it. Altough, personally this does not count for me. I am practicing my heart out to get into masters as soon as HotS releases. Am I cheesing? Not in a single game! I just want to achieve it without "trickery" and become a macro master player. Its all up to your self-expectations really.
What I also wanna say is that I am totally in love with the game and therefore trying my best to understand it more. I see becoming a masters player as a reward for that. I dont give a shit about the icon but once I achieved master via ultimate macro play I will be very proud of myself because I know that only very few people (percentagewise compared to total amount of sc2 players) are as good as myself/have an eually good understanding combined with game mechanics.
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This poll is very dumb..
"Being in masters doesn't mean you are a masters player."
No! Only being Grandmaster means you are a master player hahaha :D
Whether you are a master player depends on nothing else but that little icon in your profile. If it's the star - you're a master player. If it's not, you're not.
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i finally got masters a month before HOTS, now im gonna school yall nerds on my new method that no one else has ever done!
its been done. i actually bet a friend who complained about terran on ladder that you could get masters as terran meta game all-ining people with 30 apm and guess what, it worked because ladder cheese is highly potent. there are a slew of terrans that 1 1 1'd all the protoss (easily the most popular ladder race) straight to masters or 2 rax scv allin the other 2 matchups etc etc.
the thing im wondering is why zerg, the most consistent race hands down on ladder, needs to cheese? zerg cheese is HIGHLY scoutable and while u can get into masters cheesing with ANY race, why would you want to? macro is more fun because winning isnt fun unless you win the RIGHT way. people who derive joy from only winning, aka ppl such as yourself, baffle me since the point of sc2 is rendered pointless by your playstyle. i look down on that mentality as do other good players and true fans of the game
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On January 30 2013 17:27 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 17:24 Pigge wrote:On January 30 2013 17:19 Tanukki wrote:
I also did well in EU ladder for a time doing exclusively roach rushes. Would probably still work.
Most players follow the metagame from the professional scene. I suppose they want to play the long epic games and come into them with an advantage from the professional's optimized build order.
Nothing wrong with that, but often times when these people lose to a roach rush they will dismiss it as the cheesing of a skilless faggot, and move on to the exact same thing in the next game. Not just ladder heroes like me, but even some profilic streamers I've watched who practice in order to get tournament success do this, considering a game to be a waste of time if the opponent cheeses.
That's just wrong, by cheesing you get better at cheesing, and by defending cheeses and adapting to them, you get better at defending cheeses. No game is a waste of time. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider yourself a better player than the cheeser if you don't have a way of dealing with one-base plays and simply take shortcuts to the late game. I agree to a point, but i think the discussion at hand is about exclusively cheesing to reach a skill level that is effectively not your own. Cheesing is a good skill toi have, but not a good skill to utilize in order to artificially inflate your league placement. What is wrong with using "Cheesy builds" I have never quite understood why all the hate against them, I understand that they are easier to execute but they are also easy to stop when properly scouted... A good "cheese" needs to have misdirection, deceit and a follow up, as well as a very strong read on the meta, I believe that it can be looked at as just a different skill set than normal macro players use.
Yup, you worded much better than I could have. I think people(foreigners) likes to blame things on cheese when it's just an aggressive strat. If you can't hold cheese, you're not better than the 'cheeser'.
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I think people also need to remember you can abuse the metagame in different ways. For example almost every single non GM player on a foreign server goes for a 1 rax fe then Thorzain build. You can pretty much cc first, barracks them third cc and be safe 90% of the TvT's you play.
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A win is a win. SC2 is not only about multitasking or macroing, its also mind-/metagames and micro. Although i prefer playing 'standard' most of the time, but I cheese from time to time just for the fun (and so my ladder opponents cant figure out my style!^^)
btw: does the Geiko build still work in masters? it should, cause people are playing even greedier.
Geiko build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517
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Those macro only players, that die to every mindgame should definitely not be called master players Imo, maybe if they are in GM. And I am just kidding. But if you die to mind games you have a glaring weakness in your play, which will be harder to overcome then anything else since mindgames become stronger the higher up you go.
I am playing to rarely though to really comment on how to easily beat the current strategies, as I might be outdated already. But usually I fake some early aggression or hide it really well and scout my opponent reaction. Ends up in usual them dieing (eco cheeser/ early game cheeser) or getting behind in macro (standard player).
Some time ago I thought if I want to learn something, I better should not kill my opponent in the early game. But it just put me behind because they were greedy beyond sanity and thats not a good way to play either. They should atleast scout if they cut that many corners.
Master is full of one trick ponies one way or the other, so it is pretty helpful to see what sort of pony they are right from the start.
Still dreaming of the day when I will face players that will fall for the hiding workers trick, Master Level seems not enough for it to be reliable (1 of 3 players showed a reaction in my tests) sadly.
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Abusing meta game and ladder "anonimity" is best to climb the ladder and Id even into GM if you have good enough builds. Problem is you end up with wrong skillset going into tournaments.
Also unorthodox/cheesy/whatever play you get high chance of BO losses unlike with standart play wich again is bad for tournaments. But if you dont care about these then this is the absolutely best way of playing. As it puts you into sutiation where you are comfortable and you opponent isnt.
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This is one of the dumbest OPs I have seen in this forum for a long time. First of all there is a lot of variance on the ladder especially if your mmr hasn't stabilized yet. So the thing you abused was not the meta game but that you used an easy to execute but tight all in which is difficult to defend for most people. A lot of people have already recognized that it is easier to climb the ladder by doing exactly this.
Now there is nothing wrong with doing that and there is no denying of you having perfected this all in to master level but it only means exactly that. If a player can execute various strategies on this level and knows how to counter your all in you will maybe be able to take one game off of him but then he will just defend your strategy every time and you are actually losing because of the meta game going on between you two.
Meta gaming is not very useful on the ladder because it mostly relies on your opponent doing something specific like getting a fast third or ignoring the possibility of all in X completely. All ins are very successful on the ladder because you only play your opponent once and so you always have the element of surprise on your side not because the meta game favors them. All the "greedy" openings you "abused" actually have the ability to defend an all in like this if executed correctly so it's just a lack of execution on your opponent's side that makes your build successful.
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I essentially have the opposite view the OP is making. I don't have the issue with "cheesing" much (until it becomes too common/OP), but rather the effectiveness of metagame builds themself.
In Starcraft 2, getting to masters (or diamond if you're terrible) is easy if you follow the meta. That bother's me to no end. While it was slightly the case in brood war, it was so much less-so: it wasn't really that significant until you got to the highest of levels, and more importantly, it took many many years to really even develop solid effective meta game builds.
The game feels so simple, lame, predictable, and boring, when the same opening build is done all the time because it is the most effective. There's no need for improvisation or thinking for oneself, or multitasking, other other things that makes the game challenging and entertaining.
The only thing it leaves, is a bit of touch-up work on mechanics (APM, hotkeys if it's terrible), and scouting (which is significant, but so easy to do with some practice)
The OP is just flat out wrong that 7RR will kill a terran FE. Sure it CAN kill it a terran FE, but they need to not scout it. When a terran sends their SCV at x time, it's not hard to deduce baneling or roach play, and react accordingly (more bunkers and/or wall, and prep repair); that doesn't take skill, it just takes memorization.
There's a difference between meta, and pro-level reactionary corner-cutting meta. Running corner-cutting builds like not scouting or not getting a bunker always when fast expanding is setting up for failure, but when you learn to run the meta properly, then the wins pile up from all the people running cheese.
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being anything means you ARE that
where is the point saying "your not xy because you ..." if you are xy you ARE xy ...
so if your in master your a master player, you can ba a shitty master player deserving to be in bronce but you ARE a master player ...
stupid discussion xD
if you in soccer league 1 your a league 1 player, even if you hardly play you injured and bad, you are a 1st leageue player
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Actually this is what drove me away from the game quite a bit, I can easily stay masters by just 2raxing every map, I won't ever be GM so what's the point in these "honorable macro games", it's not like there is any competition outside of BO1 for the majority of players (no tourneys like WC3, etc).
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I want to know what kind of masters players scout your gas and still don't prepare for some sort of cheese...
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If you really want that star, you can just 6 pool your way into GM. It doesn't actually make you a better player though. It took me about a year to get from bronze to masters, but it was fun. I have cheesed about 5 games out of a total of 600 games. Somehow some protoss masters still try to wall in my ramp with pylons. If they're that desperate for points, take them. I want to get better at this game, not artificially boost my rank.
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Yes after 20 pvp games in row i go 2 gate proxy bust me + i got 3 times cause inactivity demote to diamond and i get 3 times back to masters so i guess i am masters player
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
This opinion is invalid, if a masters player loses to a cheesy build, that is THEIR fault for not scouting/defending it.
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Blah blah blah. Don't care about all these noobs going "yeah it doesn't make you better blah". Playing against masters players is gonna make you better either way. Go for it.
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Sure, if you are in masters league, you are a masters player, but you will not automatically be as skilled as the average masters player.
What you are talking about is strategy and this is the most important thing in SCII, at least in my opinion.
There are so many players out there, who only play what they have been seeing at pro level, that they can not decide, how to win against your hyper aggressive play.
But beeing a masters player means to me, that you can easily do this.
I see many zergs, who are not able to win games vs. me because they simply are not used to my playstlye, whether it is heavy aggression or long term macro game.
Greetz
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Most good master players will be able to defend an Overpool 7RR with a CC first. If the build is done properly.
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Cheesing is a short cut to ladder success? Who would have guessed it. Don't try to dress it up as a clever exploitation of the metagame, decently executed all-ins have always been devastatingly effective until you reach fairly high up in Masters.
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Metagame in pvt: 2 medivac timing
Abuse: Getting 2 immortals, 4-5 sentries and a ton of stalkers. Should be able to kill their 2 medivac push decisively and then counter attack for the win.
Works for: Bronze-gm
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i think it is a very smart idea to follow the ladder meta. we are playing on the ladder, not in tournaments.
it shouldn't really matter what happens at a very high level to us.
I think this is the reason why so many people who constantly watch tournaments, high level replays and try it for themselves on ladder will constantly lose and rarely get higher.
You have to paly according to your opponents, that is the whole purpose of this game.
As the meta progresses, this guy will have to learn new things, he isn't putting all his eggs into a basket of some simple all-in
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On January 30 2013 17:36 dani` wrote:
You basically abuse players who actually do not know how to scout & respond either, but just copy a specific build order template and that works fine when matched up against someone else who does the same. I think not being able to find out what your opponent is doing is one of the bigger tells that someone does not really know what and/or why he is doing what he's doing, so please by all means continue abusing it hardcore so hopefully those players learn it's vital to scout properly and learn how to respond to different situations...
I agree with this.
most players have enormous holes in their game play, and if no one is there to stick things in the hole regularly, the holes never get fixed.
cheesy or not, masters league needs people who poke holes.
A 7rr is not difficult to defend in any match-up, so the fact that you are getting high winrates with it means there is a big problem, and you are part of the solution.
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Seriously, another thread from the same guy trying to tell people how's he's really not a noob?
If I gave a shit I'd go cannon rush to masters league, however, to me it would be meaningless, I'd be good doing one single thing that is far easier then the things my opponent would be doing, i.e. I would use less skill to get the same wins that they do.
If choosing easy mode in a game or cheating is your preferred method of playing games, go join the Hezzina club of "Too lazy to actually learn to play but still wan't to brag about it.".
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On January 30 2013 23:25 cvgHuShang wrote:
Metagame in pvt: 2 medivac timing
Abuse: Getting 2 immortals, 4-5 sentries and a ton of stalkers. Should be able to kill their 2 medivac push decisively and then counter attack for the win.
Works for: Bronze-gm
Is this a joke? Terran can just not engage and drop you if you even attemt to move out...... -.-
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metagame abuse only works with zerg. terran especially really has no way of truly abusing greedy zerg builds and to a lesser extent greedy protoss builds. I think most master terrans are pretty legit for that reason alone.
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"League is not a measure of skill but of progress." - Day9
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On January 30 2013 23:25 cvgHuShang wrote:
Metagame in pvt: 2 medivac timing
Abuse: Getting 2 immortals, 4-5 sentries and a ton of stalkers. Should be able to kill their 2 medivac push decisively and then counter attack for the win.
Works for: Bronze-gm
Holy crap someone finally posted their interpretation of the meta game :D
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Big mistake to include that pool.
Now this thread is about whether a consistent cheeser is truly a masters player or not. This is up to how you define the term "a masters player", there is only a subjektive answer. Discussing the current meta game and how to exploit it through cheese is much more interesting. To have fun winning an extra game here and there because you are able to outthink your opponent based on a statistik, is a very fun and valid strategy.
There are few things more satisfying than to play against the same person a couple of time (in any game) and then suddently read him and win just because you read him through his play (or in the case of random ladder opponents, through the tendensy of the metagame.)
I like to make abusive builds myself. When i play zerg against P, i sometimes open 12 pool through double extractor trick. Then build 3 zerglings right away when you pool is done and then just continue drone production, taking you nat and third. This is map dependent, but when protoss player see a pool first, they often assume its a 14 pool and build the nexus before the cannon and lose since the lings are significantly earlier than usual. Ive only tried this on the diamond to low masters level, but it puts a lot of protoss players off. Also this isn't much of an all in since you put your nat down shortly after the lings pop. Also the protoss player will sometimes put down 2 cannons and/or put down the gateway before the nexus. Sometimes they also have to wall off a cancel certain buildings, delaying their economy even more so you don't have to play from behind in the midgame.
edit: didnt quite get it to make sense in the first attempt
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On January 31 2013 01:16 Kong John wrote:
Big mistake to include that pool.
Now this thread is about whether a consistent cheeser is truly a masters player or not. This is up to how you define the term "a masters player", there is only a subjektive answer. Discussing the current meta game and how to exploit it through cheese. To have fun winning an extra game here and there because you are able to outthink your opponent based on a statistik.
There are few things more satisfying than to play against the same person a couple of time (in any game) and then suddently read him and win just because you read him through his play (or in the case of random ladder opponents, through the tendensy of the metagame.)
I really like to make abusive builds myself. When i play zerg against P, i sometimes open 12 pool through double extractor trick. Then build 3 zerglings right away when you pool is done and then just continue drone production, taking you nat and third. This is map dependent, but when protoss player see a pool first, they often assume its a 14 pool and build the nexus before the cannon and lose since the lings are significantly earlier than usual. Ive only tried this on the diamond to low masters level, but it puts a lot of protoss players off. Also this isn't much of an all in since you put your nat down shortly after the lings pop. Also the protoss player will sometimes put down 2 cannons and/or put down the gateway before the nexus. Sometimes they also have to wall off a cancel certain buildings, delaying their economy even more so you don't have to play from behind in the midgame.
I agree and have removed the poll since I made another thread about cheesing to hopefully get this one back on topic, interesting build I was using overpool drone to 14, 6 lings on pool finish for the same reason could normally be quite disruptive against the protoss without really committing.
for those who care about the poll this was the final results
Poll: Masters through meta gaming = masters player?
A win is a win, being in masters makes you a master player. (117)
54%
Being in masters doesn't mean you are a masters player. (91)
42%
A "cheesy" player can never be a masters level player. (9)
4%
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On January 31 2013 01:23 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:16 Kong John wrote:
Big mistake to include that pool.
Now this thread is about whether a consistent cheeser is truly a masters player or not. This is up to how you define the term "a masters player", there is only a subjektive answer. Discussing the current meta game and how to exploit it through cheese. To have fun winning an extra game here and there because you are able to outthink your opponent based on a statistik.
There are few things more satisfying than to play against the same person a couple of time (in any game) and then suddently read him and win just because you read him through his play (or in the case of random ladder opponents, through the tendensy of the metagame.)
I really like to make abusive builds myself. When i play zerg against P, i sometimes open 12 pool through double extractor trick. Then build 3 zerglings right away when you pool is done and then just continue drone production, taking you nat and third. This is map dependent, but when protoss player see a pool first, they often assume its a 14 pool and build the nexus before the cannon and lose since the lings are significantly earlier than usual. Ive only tried this on the diamond to low masters level, but it puts a lot of protoss players off. Also this isn't much of an all in since you put your nat down shortly after the lings pop. Also the protoss player will sometimes put down 2 cannons and/or put down the gateway before the nexus. Sometimes they also have to wall off a cancel certain buildings, delaying their economy even more so you don't have to play from behind in the midgame.
I agree and have removed the poll since I made another thread about cheesing to hopefully get this one back on topic, interesting build I was using overpool drone to 14, 6 lings on pool finish for the same reason could normally be quite disruptive against the protoss without really committing. for those who care about the poll this was the final results Poll: Masters through meta gaming = masters player? A win is a win, being in masters makes you a master player. (117) 54% Being in masters doesn't mean you are a masters player. (91) 42% A "cheesy" player can never be a masters level player. (9) 4%
Smart move :D
The early lings also give great utility for denying scouting and can be used to make a runby if he cancels the wall or move the probe from the gap in the wall. Often people only make one cannon that doesnt cover the building nexus. Sometimes they are even forced to cancel but you almost always get some probes and lost mining time out of it.
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On January 30 2013 16:49 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:42 Dagan159 wrote:
Using cheesy builds to climb ladder- useful since march 31 1998.
Learning how to abuse other players opening is only good if you can actually play the macro game at that level. As soon as players figure out how to defend your looking at losing a few 100 elo points. But hey, if you think getting that pretty star next to your name means you improved, by all means- go for it. I agree and disagree, I agree as shown above that winning through very aggressive builds does not mean that you are a better player, however I disagree because if someone is able to win an entire high level tournament (including bo3 and bo5) without going into a single macro game isn't that person still the superior player?
What high level tournament was won by a player who never played and won a macro game?
Answer: None...or at least not since the game was ultra new.
Is using a cheese build to rank up the ladder new?
Answer: No, and neither is a post like this.
Did you get to mid masters because the build is amazing?
Answer: No, you got to mid masters because prior to that people make mistakes like not scouting enough. Or they over react to cheese, etc.
Playing ultra cheesy 'can' rank you up in the ladder significantly. I would ask however what good it is actually doing you other then giving you a shiny masters star.
Will it make a stream popular? No, because as soon as everyone see's that all you do is cheese, or if you stop cheesing you lose, unless your some bazaar personality that everyone watches for some odd reason you won't have people watching quickly.
Will it win you tournaments? No, because top level players will quickly realize 'that's the guy that just cheeses' and a top level player playing conservative is still going to out macro/beat someone who is exclusively a cheeser.
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While I don't value the skill set required to rank up to Master's doing cheesy builds, I respect it as an accomplishment. If you glean enjoyment out of what you do, keep doing it! Who am I to tell you whether what you're doing is wrong? In fact, I'd say you're valuable as a practice partner because you're a great person to benchmark against.
I view the skillset you're developing as somewhat similar to trying to play LoL up to the 1800-1900 level. Does it require game-sense/knowledge? Sure. Does it require a modicum of technical skill? Eh, sure. It doesn't require the symphony of mental discipline, coordination, awareness and execution that higher level Starcraft requires, and because of that I don't value the pursuit. I do respect it as an accomplishment though.
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On January 31 2013 01:57 Kronen wrote:
While I don't value the skill set required to rank up to Master's doing cheesy builds, I respect it as an accomplishment. If you glean enjoyment out of what you do, keep doing it! Who am I to tell you whether what you're doing is wrong? In fact, I'd say you're valuable as a practice partner because you're a great person to benchmark against.
I view the skillset you're developing as somewhat similar to trying to play LoL up to the 1800-1900 level. Does it require game-sense/knowledge? Sure. Does it require a modicum of technical skill? Eh, sure. It doesn't require the symphony of mental discipline, coordination, awareness and execution that higher level Starcraft requires, and because of that I don't value the pursuit. I do respect it as an accomplishment though.
You have to remember that while 7rr isn't a great example of getting to masters doing a cheesy build, something like 2 rax is because the micro and execution that you have to nail dead on every time isn't always easy, and is a skill set you will use in macro play as well.
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On January 31 2013 02:01 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:57 Kronen wrote:
While I don't value the skill set required to rank up to Master's doing cheesy builds, I respect it as an accomplishment. If you glean enjoyment out of what you do, keep doing it! Who am I to tell you whether what you're doing is wrong? In fact, I'd say you're valuable as a practice partner because you're a great person to benchmark against.
I view the skillset you're developing as somewhat similar to trying to play LoL up to the 1800-1900 level. Does it require game-sense/knowledge? Sure. Does it require a modicum of technical skill? Eh, sure. It doesn't require the symphony of mental discipline, coordination, awareness and execution that higher level Starcraft requires, and because of that I don't value the pursuit. I do respect it as an accomplishment though. You have to remember that while 7rr isn't a great example of getting to masters doing a cheesy build, something like 2 rax is because the micro and execution that you have to nail dead on every time isn't always easy, and is a skill set you will use in macro play as well.
the 7rr was just an example post of how I interpreted the meta game and used the knowledge on the ladder. With that what match ups are you using the 2 rax on the ladder, what form of 2 rax, and why is it strong in this current meta game?
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If you win, you win. Yes, you're winning because you're taking advantage of current trends and mindset, so by definition you're 'metagaming'. But this thread doesn't seem to be about 'metagaming' anymore, and degenerated into whether or not you should be 'cheesing' your way to masters.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with you winning with this method. Will you frustrate opponent looking to practice longer-game macro mechanics when you do this? Most likely. And I suppose by no means are you a very flexible player. But you're aware of the flaws of only practicing early / midgame transition. You're aware that you're "apm isn't masters level", among other limitations. I applaud you for knowing yourself so well, which is something I feel is sorely lacking among most players.
People have different priorities with this game. Some people like to explore the vast possibilities and branches of this game, maybe develop and use interesting strategies. Some people like winning, turning the game into a science, studying the details to map out a win. There's no wrong way to play this game, because there's no right way. I honestly don't think other people should be telling you how to play this game.
That being said, just to stay on topic. There's more then one way to to take advantage of the metagame. Knowing that they will fast expand, and then expanding even greedier is also a way to take advantage of the metagame.
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On January 31 2013 02:47 kiero wrote:
If you win, you win. Yes, you're winning because you're taking advantage of current trends and mindset, so by definition you're 'metagaming'. But this thread doesn't seem to be about 'metagaming' anymore, and degenerated into whether or not you should be 'cheesing' your way to masters.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with you winning with this method. Will you frustrate opponent looking to practice longer-game macro mechanics when you do this? Most likely. And I suppose by no means are you a very flexible player. But you're aware of the flaws of only practicing early / midgame transition. You're aware that you're "apm isn't masters level", among other limitations. I applaud you for knowing yourself so well, which is something I feel is sorely lacking among most players.
People have different priorities with this game. Some people like to explore the vast possibilities and branches of this game, maybe develop and use interesting strategies. Some people like winning, turning the game into a science, studying the details to map out a win. There's no wrong way to play this game, because there's no right way. I honestly don't think other people should be telling you how to play this game.
Slowly trying to get the thread onto the track I originally intended, created a new thread devoted to the issue of cheesing to get higher up at this location http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396124
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The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
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On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that meta gaming is not a one trick pony style, those who meta game change their play style as the meta game changes, the 7rr I posted as an example if suddenly 75% of people where expecting and where ready for it I would not be doing it, I would be doing another style that gives me an innate leg up from the get go based on what the majority of the population is doing.
The point of this thread was supposed to be the positives of meta gaming to go up the ladder as well as people posting their opinions of the current meta game to help players who want to get higher on the ladder through a method which is counter to what the current norm is. People believe these hard set definitions of Macro = skill, Early aggression = Cheesy player who will never get better. However I address that issue in another thread that I have linked several times.
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On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead!
Well in TvT, what I'd you abuse the very greedy (at least on the foreign servers) metagame at the moment, by being greedier yourself. Then you learn micro and crisis management, from defending people who try to all in against your build and you also learn macro, because you are setting yourself up fantastically for a macro game.
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On January 31 2013 03:13 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 03:06 Chemist391 wrote:
The issue with being a one-trick-pony, no matter what that trick is, is that you'll eventually reach an MMR where people can easily deal with it. Then you'll try some other build, but your skill set is incredibly narrow, and so your MMR will plummet downwards.
If you're happy with always being limited by a finite plateau, both in terms of ladder rank and objective skill, then go ahead! Well in TvT, what I'd you abuse the very greedy (at least on the foreign servers) metagame at the moment, by being greedier yourself. Then you learn micro and crisis management, from defending people who try to all in against your build and you also learn macro, because you are setting yourself up fantastically for a macro game.
The macro abuse of meta game is fun as well, can be shown by many terran players especially Thorzain and Flash when they take ultra fast thirds because people do not go for the Early-Midgame pressure as much.
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I know it's not a guide but... can u post some replays vs terran? I think 1 base is too obvious and they will scan and see the warren.
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I have an account that I made that I intended to only 6 pool, regardless of map or race or anything. I got that account to rank 1 platinum before I stopped.
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On January 30 2013 16:49 WikidSik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters. .... if ur masters, then ur masters one way or another.
And that is why league =/= skill.
I wish they would just remove ranks, people doing stupid shit like this to get some fancy league icon instead of actually learning and getting really good at the game is what makes eu/na ladder such a terrible practice environment.
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Holy crap people are a bit stuck up about the 'beautiful macro' games and stuff. Winning is winning and figuring out the meta game is just a big of a talent as macroing is. The player losing to 7 roach rushes is NOT a good player, they are generally taking calculated risks which although is good for tournaments, it is not the case for ladder play. Ladder play should bridge the line between safe and greedy and not too far into one section because that is when risks occur. Hyper agressive, cheesing or whatever you want to call it keeps the game honest and is a huge part of the games balance.
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I don't understand why anyone would play like this: How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
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On January 31 2013 06:55 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would play like this: How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
For starters winning bo3 using meta game play is no harder then winning a standard bo3, it goes into mind games knowing your opponent and sendng in misleading information to make them think you are or arnt committing no early aggression, as for calling meta gaming a coin flip style is a post of minor truth mixed in with general ignorance. A great way of saying what meta gaming is, is rock paper scissors, if you think you only have a 33% chance of throwing the winning hand you dont understand just how complex it really is. I have already made a thread devoted to explaining how cheese is more complex and legit then people like you believe please read it before claiming that chees eis nothing more then a coinflip... this is my final reponse to you "skill less cheeser" posters if you want to claim that cheese is skillless please do so in the "art of cheesing thread"
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So you play people that dont scout. You cant rid the scout of seeing no fe, gas up, and warren going down. One base zerg vs p/t shows lack of scouting/follow up scouting in my mind.
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When I first started playing I quickly got sick of losing to gimmicky strategies in low levels of play such as DTs, cannon rushes, baneling busts, and bunker rushes, especially when I saw my friends (T and P) get into platinum right off the bat. I created a roach rush that hits the ramp at 5:15. I won 9/10 games in 6 minutes from bronze to platinum until I had to start transitioning from the rush into a midgame.
What I realize now is that I was legitimately a bronze player to begin with. However, by repeatedly doing this rush strategy, I learned to macro perfectly up to 36 supply. That means nailing every drone and overlord on time and being consistent. This is quite significant in bronze-gold league. Turns out, this cheesy build actually made me a better player.
Eventually I learned to apply the same diligence to 2 base builds, and now 3 base economic openers. The highest I've reached is top 8 masters.
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On January 31 2013 07:58 cywinr wrote:
When I first started playing I quickly got sick of losing to gimmicky strategies in low levels of play such as DTs, cannon rushes, baneling busts, and bunker rushes, especially when I saw my friends (T and P) get into platinum right off the bat. I created a roach rush that hits the ramp at 5:15. I won 9/10 games in 6 minutes from bronze to platinum until I had to start transitioning from the rush into a midgame.
What I realize now is that I was legitimately a bronze player to begin with. However, by repeatedly doing this rush strategy, I learned to macro perfectly up to 36 supply. That means nailing every drone and overlord on time and being consistent. This is quite significant in bronze-gold league. Turns out, this cheesy build actually made me a better player.
Eventually I learned to apply the same diligence to 2 base builds, and now 3 base economic openers. The highest I've reached is top 8 masters.
Good mechanics are needed for all builds macro and aggressive :-D
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Im Having trouble executing this build against Zerg.
-How many spines is too many to attack into?
-Is it worth it to run past the spines?
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On January 31 2013 08:02 prOphet910 wrote:
Im Having trouble executing this build against Zerg.
-How many spines is too many to attack into?
-Is it worth it to run past the spines?
This is not a strategy thread for an individual build, feel free to pm me for advice on this build. However with my 7 roaches i always skirt around or run by spines.
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On January 30 2013 16:47 AngryPenguin wrote:
this is why this game have a lot of problems, people with a platinum skill level break into masters.
If players can't scout such a simple strategy then it's their faulth and they shouldn't be in masters in the first place.
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I lol at all of these people who talk about BO3 and up. Its in series that you will find the most amount of cheese. If 2 people play standard its pretty obvious who is better at playing standard. After that your not going to try and play standard again because you will lose. Half of winning a BO5 is playing cheesy and knowing how to stop it. If your masters at cheesing then your halfway to winnning a bo5 but if you can't cheese or all-in for shit then its pretty difficult to win successive games against someone when they know what your going to do.
As for people comparing NA/EU to KR. The great thing about KR servers is they dont give a shit about cheesing or playing all-in. In fact from what i've seen and heard they play the most aggressive and cheesy out of all the the servers. You wonder how they have top notch unit control. It isn't playing everygame to the lategame and having one big huge engagement.
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I honestly don't know how some people think that people who use builds that exploit the metagame are any less 'legitimate' of a masters player than those who just blindly stick to a build they learnt yet don't actually understand and are unable to hold off a simple and outdated aggressive build. I mean 7 roach rush has been around since what 2010? People who cannot adapt when the game doesn't go the way they want it to are less deserving of a place in masters than the OP IMO.
OP, good job on this thread. Hopefully it will encourage people to learn how to adapt to what they are playing against, instea of just rote learning build orders.
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On January 31 2013 06:27 arcHoniC wrote:
Holy crap people are a bit stuck up about the 'beautiful macro' games and stuff. Winning is winning and figuring out the meta game is just a big of a talent as macroing is. The player losing to 7 roach rushes is NOT a good player, they are generally taking calculated risks which although is good for tournaments, it is not the case for ladder play. Ladder play should bridge the line between safe and greedy and not too far into one section because that is when risks occur. Hyper agressive, cheesing or whatever you want to call it keeps the game honest and is a huge part of the games balance.
Learning how to play good overall game and macro game is much harder than learning how to stop cheese/all-ins.
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On January 31 2013 11:08 Ryder. wrote:
I honestly don't know how some people think that people who use builds that exploit the metagame are any less 'legitimate' of a masters player than those who just blindly stick to a build they learnt yet don't actually understand and are unable to hold off a simple and outdated aggressive build. I mean 7 roach rush has been around since what 2010? People who cannot adapt when the game doesn't go the way they want it to are less deserving of a place in masters than the OP IMO.
OP, good job on this thread. Hopefully it will encourage people to learn how to adapt to what they are playing against, instea of just rote learning build orders.
It doesn't make them less illegitimately a 'master rank' player. What it does is make them less legitimately a Master player of the game. I think that's where you get the argument, people who go masters rank is masters rank, and people who go masters rank doesn't mean your a master.
You need to know how to cheese to be a master of the game, but you need to know how to play a standard long game too. That doesn't apply for being a Master Rank on ladder. Largely nobody knows you or if you are just a cheese player and you can get away with it and be Master Rank, it doesn't however make you a master of the game.
Where I think it annoys people is the SC2 ladder is the only initial way to gain position and note of how 'good' you are. People who look for ways to abuse the system for pure rank and not skill de-value the system as a measure of skill. For the pureists that is annoying because their rank of Masters means less if there is ways to have less skill but still achieve the rank.
All that said personally I say play the game however you want, so long as your realistic about how good you are. I've seen countless people cheese to masters just to try to be able to say look at me I'm masters I'm good and know what I'm talking about...when in reality they don't. The SC2 forum over at blizzard is absolutely filled with these people and I think that's what gives anyone who would cheese to masters a bad rep.
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On February 01 2013 04:59 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:08 Ryder. wrote:
I honestly don't know how some people think that people who use builds that exploit the metagame are any less 'legitimate' of a masters player than those who just blindly stick to a build they learnt yet don't actually understand and are unable to hold off a simple and outdated aggressive build. I mean 7 roach rush has been around since what 2010? People who cannot adapt when the game doesn't go the way they want it to are less deserving of a place in masters than the OP IMO.
OP, good job on this thread. Hopefully it will encourage people to learn how to adapt to what they are playing against, instea of just rote learning build orders. It doesn't make them less illegitimately a 'master rank' player. What it does is make them less illegitimately a Master player of the game. I think that's where you get the argument, people who go masters rank is masters rank, and people who go masters rank doesn't mean your a master. You need to know how to cheese to be a master of the game, but you need to know how to play a standard long game too. That doesn't apply for being a Master Rank on ladder. Largely nobody knows you or if you are just a cheese player and you can get away with it and be Master Rank, it doesn't however make you a master of the game. Where I think it annoys people is the SC2 ladder is the only initial way to gain position and note of how 'good' you are. People who look for ways to abuse the system for pure rank and not skill de-value the system as a measure of skill. For the pureists that is annoying because their rank of Masters means less if there is ways to have less skill but still achieve the rank. All that said personally I say play the game however you want, so long as your realistic about how good you are. I've seen countless people cheese to masters just to try to be able to say look at me I'm masters I'm good and know what I'm talking about...when in reality they don't. The SC2 forum over at blizzard is absolutely filled with these people and I think that's what gives anyone who would cheese to masters a bad rep.
I think that this is a flawed way of thinking based on the fact that you are summing that people who do very aggressive openers are that of a lower skill bracket then those who play macro. A skill level of a person can easily be broken down into 2 groupings, Sense of the game, and the ability to multi-task.
Sense of the game on a macro player will be found around scouting and being able to figure out what your opponent is doing to be able to find a timing at which you can push out and win the game.
Multi-tasking for macroers falls into the category of being able to macro while microing and be able to do all the small tasks required in order to be able to win the game such as scouting, spreading creep etc.
Many people believe that early aggressive players are less of a player because they believe that these 2 skills can only be developed inside of a macro games which is not true. Sense of game for someone who does aggressive builds every game comes from being able to gather information before the game begins and read their opponent during the first part of the game in order to be able to know which early aggressive builds or "Cheese" will work this process is also just often referred to as meta gaming. As well as at high level "cheesing" you need to be able to read how much information and what information you are feeding to your opponent in order to be able to know where you are able to push from and how well defended each area will be. For the ability to multi task a good "cheese" has a follow up behind it and is generally not a committed all in (I said good cheese not all cheeses) and thus the player who is doing the early aggressive build has to begin making an exit strategy from the aggression very early on forcing the multi tasking to a high level very fast into the game because you have to be able to micro while you macro during the aggression an example would be after the 7rr you need to through down an expansion, keep up with injects, manage larvae, and drone saturation.
So on the ladder when people are claiming the these aggressive players aka "Cheesers" are diluting the skill population inside of the leagues I believe that it is a very false statement based around the fact that having a different set of skills makes you a less skilled player, just because someone is amazing at the trumpet but someone else is good at the Clarinet does not mean that one is a better musician then the other.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
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I think both sides are right to an extent.
Yes it's mechanically easier and strategically simpler to win a game through a cheese/all-in. So the people who gain wins through these methods are looked down upon. But the problem with that is that a win is still a win. No matter how you got there, you still got there.
IMO part of the reason why NA players/server is behind the other servers (besides gaming culture etc. etc.) is the fact that it's so against cheese. People define high level play by solid macro, reinforced with solid micro... but you just don't get to that point unless you can hold off cheese. And when players can't hold off cheese and then rage and dismiss it as a cheap loss, they aren't doing anything to improve. When people come up with general build orders like the 1 gate FE, 1 rax CC, 14 pool/16 hatch, they all take into account reactions to aggressive early game cheeses. You can't have a solid long-term plan without taking into account all the things that stop you from there. So to have solid macro and grow into a top player, it's more beneficial to welcome cheese. Defending cheese builds up your skills to hold off everything you need to until a macro advantage grows.
It's all about doing everything you can to gain the advantage your build order is designed to give you. That's skill. Knowing what you're advantages are and trying to maximize it. Economic builds? Your advantage grows as time increases so your skills are built around surviving to that point. Aggressive builds? Your advantage is in doing enough damage to overcome the opportunity cost of not choosing a more economical build. Understanding the design of a build and playing to it's advantages should be how everyone plays. So you can have a skilled cheeser + unskilled macro player in masters vs. an unskilled cheeser + skilled macro player in masters. They're both still masters. And they're both gonna play to the advantages. If the cheeser beats the macro player, his ability to cheese > the macro player's ability to macro. He's not necessarily more skilled, but he's better at what he does than the loser is at whatever they do. And that's all it takes to win.
Top players can do both. The reason they've been around so long is because they can do it all... and they can defend against it all. But up until you reach a point where it's hard to improve at skill ____ any further, variance in strategy is irrelevant because it's simply not needed.
Edit: At the end of the day, saying player x is more skilled than player y isn't right or wrong. It's simply unclear. Player x is more skilled than player y at (macro, cheese, micro, timing attacks, etc.) is a much more "correct" statement. So when comparing skill, you can't just talk about overall skillsets. You talk about subsets of whatever you determine to be a skill in the game.
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Not that I necessarily agree that cheese is totally legitimate but I just laugh at all the people that are saying BO3 this, or BO5 that. As if most of the people here play any BO series. The majority of people that play 1v1 Starcraft are ladder players where strategies at winning a BO series means nothing.
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On January 30 2013 18:04 MichaelDonovan wrote:
I've never understood people who capitalize random words in a paragraph for no reason.
It's usually when someone knows the points they're trying to make aren't very good or don't make any sense at all so they try to make up for it by internet-yelling at people in hopes that others will misinterpret their confidence and boldness for correctness.
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yeah, OP is very silly.. he finds a cheese build that works for him and thinks that he's a genius tactician now. Sun Tzu ain't got shit on him...
that's like saying ROFL 2GATE PROXY! I R CUNNINGZ.
really, it's bad enough that you cheese your way out of plat, but to be proud of it, and to be as misguided as to think that you somehow are 'abusing the metagame' when all you're doing is being amazed by how your crappy cheese works vs players that don't scout. Just cuz you cancel your nat hatch doesn't make you some gosu... and most good players will take the original scouting drone and scout again around 4:30 to see what you're doing so if they know it's comming then its a matter of holding it so i don't know if you really got to masters with it..
but yeah whats the difference between what you're saying and going 2gate proxy? They are both viable ailbet cheesy strats.. but nothing spectacular.
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I'm on OP's side with this.
This game got truly fun for me when I learned I could immortal/sentry all in, 1-gate before (robo in gold, stargate in platinum), and 3 gate pressure expand my way to victory. If it works for OP to just 7 roach rush every game then hell, more power to him.
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On February 02 2013 05:18 ioCross wrote:
yeah, OP is very silly.. he finds a cheese build that works for him and thinks that he's a genius tactician now. Sun Tzu ain't got shit on him...
that's like saying ROFL 2GATE PROXY! I R CUNNINGZ.
really, it's bad enough that you cheese your way out of plat, but to be proud of it, and to be as misguided as to think that you somehow are 'abusing the metagame' when all you're doing is being amazed by how your crappy cheese works vs players that don't scout. Just cuz you cancel your nat hatch doesn't make you some gosu... and most good players will take the original scouting drone and scout again around 4:30 to see what you're doing so if they know it's comming then its a matter of holding it so i don't know if you really got to masters with it..
but yeah whats the difference between what you're saying and going 2gate proxy? They are both viable ailbet cheesy strats.. but nothing spectacular.
Proxy 2 gate can be very cunning assuming you place it in areas that arnt commonly scouted and find ways in order to show that nothing is wrong inside of your base. Also assuming that in the meta game people are not going builds that are able to easily deal with fast zealot pressure, ie if zerg was going overpool as the standard the 2 gate pressure wouldn't do too much. So in the end you do need to be able to read the meta game in order to be able to 2 gate well. As well you have to know what your follow up is as all good early aggressive builds have an escape after wards.
However if a well worded response about what this thread is closer to about wasn't what you where expecting then enjoy the fact that you are a big person coming in saying things that are extracted from text that explicitly state that this wasn't a build guide about myself. ^_^ enjoy your weekend good sir.
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On February 02 2013 05:28 TheDougler wrote:
I'm on OP's side with this.
This game got truly fun for me when I learned I could immortal/sentry all in, 1-gate before (robo in gold, stargate in platinum), and 3 gate pressure expand my way to victory. If it works for OP to just 7 roach rush every game then hell, more power to him.
Yep. People say that they love winning a macro game. I guess. I find more it way more fun winning a rush/cheese/whatever game though.
Why? Because I do. It's not fun to me to sit there and build stuff for 30 mins when I could sit there and build stuff for 10 and still win. Plus, I like being in control of the game and making my opponent lose rather than making myself win, if that makes sense.
Why do you think you should win if your micro is so much worse than mine that you can't even win with defender's advantage?
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On February 02 2013 06:20 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 05:28 TheDougler wrote:
I'm on OP's side with this.
This game got truly fun for me when I learned I could immortal/sentry all in, 1-gate before (robo in gold, stargate in platinum), and 3 gate pressure expand my way to victory. If it works for OP to just 7 roach rush every game then hell, more power to him. Yep. People say that they love winning a macro game. I guess. I find more it way more fun winning a rush/cheese/whatever game though. Why? Because I do. It's not fun to me to sit there and build stuff for 30 mins when I could sit there and build stuff for 10 and still win. Plus, I like being in control of the game and making my opponent lose rather than making myself win, if that makes sense. Why do you think you should win if your micro is so much worse than mine that you can't even win with defender's advantage?
Fun to see someone who looks at the same thing I do about if someone lost a game or if their opponent won the game. I tend to draw the line as in order to "win" the game you have to have tempo control of the game forcing your opponent into an unfavorable situation which results in a win. If you don't have tempo control of the game its the opponent that lost. An example using the 7rr would be...
My opponent loses the game - If I do a blind 7rr I don't try to mess with their minds because they scouted poorly.
I win the game - Tends to be if I was able to successfully mislead a game, or if the game goes past the initial 7rr into a game where I am control due to the fact that they early aggression put my opponent on tilt and forced them to play at my own pace.
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For me, the ladder has always been about practice. I got to master league with zerg with a mix of macro and all-in play, and I continue to practice both macro and all-in play.
I think to be a well-rounded player, you need to both be able to all-in/cheese effectively and play a standard game, otherwise you're of limited use to any team you're in and you'll suffer in any BOSeries. If somebody's goal is to be high on the ladder, that's completely fine; it's how I get my all-in defense practice.
That said, I think people who exclusively cheese are cheating themselves out of a lot of what Starcraft has to offer. Depending on what all-in you're doing, you might as well go play solitaire for the experience you're getting.
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a 7RR has existed for ever just like the 6 pool or other cheeses.
What on earth does it have to do with the meta-game?
it does not abuse some specific type of play like you try to argument (very greedy playstyle). It just abuses opponents too lazy or unable to scout. Like any other cheese.
In fact, the definition of cheese is that it is inferior to standard play when scouted and relies solely on surprise. Regardless of the meta game.
just my 7 roa.. I mean 2 cents.
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As I sit at high Diamond, wanting to break into Masters, threads like this depress me. Especially so since my lagging matchup is TvZ (but I always win against the kind of strategy the OP uses, so I guess that's something).
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On January 30 2013 16:42 Dagan159 wrote:
Using cheesy builds to climb ladder- useful since march 31 1998.
Learning how to abuse other players opening is only good if you can actually play the macro game at that level. As soon as players figure out how to defend your looking at losing a few 100 elo points. But hey, if you think getting that pretty star next to your name means you improved, by all means- go for it.
Exactly. Then the meta game will change and you will change your game to counter their game. That's what this whole thread is suppose to be about, the meta game. Did this just go right over your head?
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People see pgm doing greedy build while still being able to defend any kind of early aggression. At lower level, ppl are not able to defend those agression but are still playing greedy.
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OP reminds me of one of the earliest HotS tournaments "NVIDIA SC2 HotS Cup" where Nerchio beat ForGG in the finals by doing a 7RR in 2 of 3 games countering ForGGs CC first -> gas -> reactor hellion (no scout / no army before hellions) build.
(edit: slight difference is that Nerchio had studied his opponent's opening and specifically countered it. OP is blindly countering "current metagame trends".)
On topic: I'm having a lot of fun (and success) doing a 2 rax (ractor -> tech -> concussive) push in TvP. It abuses that protoss usually think I'm doing some sort of tech (banshee or other 1-1-1 variant) if they scout or just assume I'm doing 1 rax no gas fe. Very few protoss are ready for it and usually lose their expo or the game.
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EPT
