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The hope of this thread is to shine some light on what a good cheese is and if I am able to convince even 1 person that cheesing can be a legit way to get better and win then this thread was worth it.
Cheesing from the Liquipedia broodwar article is listed as "an expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." Cheese has always had a bad reputation in almost any game due to the fact that a cheese can be extremely easy to execute and is not reliant on your own skill but the skill of your opponent. However today I will come to the defense of cheese and the level of skill it can be.
First off - Yes there are bad players that cheese to higher brackets then they are in because their opponents do not react or scout properly, now lets get that out of the way and look at what skills the cheeser can have.
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
Economic Cheese - Many terrans cheese without even thinking about it yet no one will call them out on it as cheese. A build that is seen many times in tournaments especially by Flash in many proleague games vs zerg is an ultra fast 3cc in order to get a large economic lead above your opponent and overwhelm them with cost efficient units. This is called "Greedy Play" but I call it no different then doing a 7 roach rush. Why because you are relying on your opponents to not scout it early and abuse the timing where your army will be weak by pushing in with an all-in, so under that first listed definition of cheese it is there to take your opponent by surprise and gives you a huge advantage if unscouted.
Meta game cheesing - This one is also often seen inside of games where a player will proxy a building in a normally unscouted position in order to gain faster reinforcements or a hidden tech advantage. There is also the cheese style from it that you will blindly attack at X timing because 95% of the time they are weak during it.
What is done during a good cheese - Many people will look at the cheese as they fact that its 100% reliant on the opponent messing up, but I would disagree. There are many things a good cheeser can do in order to gain an upper hand against their opponent by feeding a steady chain of lies and deceit to their opponents scouts, as well as its the job of a good cheeser to be able to read and understand very well the meta game currently existing inside of the game in order to be able to abuse it. The lies and deceit form a very simple and every race can do it a quick example would be that you make a drone attack the probe at your natural while doing a 7 roach rush you can even go as far as to hatch and cancel just to make your opponent think that everything is fine and this is just a small example of many things that can be done in order to deceive your opponent making a large amount of the skill of a good cheeser come into effect. As well a good cheeser always has a follow up and is only using the initial cheese as a tool to get ahead not to win the game.
The defence of the cheese!
Why is abusing fast expands a bad thing? In this current meta almost everyone is fast expanding why is it a bad thing to punish greedy players?
Since when does not going into a macro game mean you have less skill? The goal of every build in the game is very simple WIN. If my goal is to 3 base 200 food push and kill you at 11minutes (Stephano roach flood style) how is that any different then saying im going to attempt to kill you at the 6 minute mark? I am simply choosing a different time that I wish to win the game, as long as I plan to follow up on it as zerg I still need to inject, I still need to expand and drone behind it, and while doing all this I need to micro the units I am attacking with I'm just choosing to have the game become active faster.
Just because the meta game is macro and I don't play macro I am apparently worse of a player, right next to the scum of the earth according to many people I play against lots of which find out I am a very nice person and I can in fact beat many masters players even without cheesing.
The conclusion: Cheese can be done by anyone and is pretty easy to pull off, however a truly good cheeser can bring it to the next level and at that point why do we still call it cheese we should call it what it really is and what the commentators call it during a pro game as well it is simply "early aggression".
Poll: So what do you thinkI have always supported "Early Aggression" (182) 57% The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender. (62) 19% Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression" (43) 13% Cheese is still a skilless play style (32) 10% 319 total votes Your vote: So what do you think (Vote): Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression"
(Vote): Cheese is still a skilless play style
(Vote): The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender.
(Vote): I have always supported "Early Aggression"
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I've always believed that cheese is a build. Aplogies of lack of good knowledge but i;m silver-gold player.
You can have a good macro game which is now seen as normal. If you do very early aggression like cannon rushing, 8pool etc there is alot of uncessary hate for it. Like cannon rushing is good if someone cant defend it but in higher leagues its harder to do but you can transition out of it with good macro to get yourself in what i class "normal game".
For example if any of you watch Weedamins he does early agression and wins, then if the agressions fails then trasitions into a build of his chosing. Then if he loses it tends to be because of his macro but he transitions so well to allow him to put himself into a good position from early aggression.
So i believe early agression is viable from low league even till gm. Just if you want to get good, allow yourself to be good in all aspects with rushing, macro, micro all the main aspects and not just depend on early agression.
I will say again after reading my statment that i do lack alot of knowledge just correct me, add on or ague with point which may be right or wrong in your opinion
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I have always supported early aggression but I also think it is easier to do than defending :-)
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On January 30 2013 18:47 Mefano wrote:
I have always supported early aggression but I also think it is easier to do than defending :-)
it's only harder to defend if you do not scout it or are doing a build that is designed to be countered by said cheese strategy, imo
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The most exciting sc2 game you can have in my books is when 2 players go whack builds both mega fail and end up having a proper macro game from there, instead of the boring standard from start, still the beauty of starcraft is there is no right way to play it as long as you keep winning you are doing something right.
Not being cheesy would mean asking your opponent for their supply just so you don't accidentally win by having a bigger army, more workers or better upgrades then you agree on a time when you going to meet middle of the map preferably somewhere where positioning has no importance whatsoever, cross your fingers and hope the better player wins.
All fair game 
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I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really).
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This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
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It's certainly legitimate to cheese now and then. That said, you can't really call yourself a good player if your entire playstyle depends on you gaining an overwhelming advantage at the start of the game (by, for example, 7RRing every terran and killing enough SCVs to be very ahead). Similarly, you can't call yourself a good player if your entire playstyle depends on being able to get away with punishable greed (CC first every game).
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lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it.
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On January 30 2013 23:52 Scootaloo wrote:
This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed.
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On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
I disagree with this. Proper early aggression isn't cheese and has a follow-up, cheese doesn't. The only way cheese has a follow-up is if the cheese didn't fail, at which point you SHOULD have won, but failed to win, so you go for a "followup". A good player spotting and reacting properly to a cheese should have a free win every time, even if the opponent is good and the cheese is well executed.
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On January 30 2013 23:52 Scootaloo wrote:
This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
Dude, you need to calm down... Probably just got cheesed?
And there is no rules about how long art should take to create. And people who utilize early aggression did take into account time. In fact, I would wager they know perfectly well they cannot win after some point because of say APM limitations. Given their constraints they adjust their strategy accordingly.
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On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really).
I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
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If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed.
Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right?
lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it.
I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort.
It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years.
Dude, you need to calm down... Probably just got cheesed?
And there is no rules about how long art should take to create. And people who utilize early aggression did take into account time. In fact, I would wager they know perfectly well they cannot win after some point because of say APM limitations. Given their constraints they adjust their strategy accordingly.
I'm quite calm, and as you can read I don't get cheesed at all these days, and back when I did I mostly won, so apart from boring games I didn't give a damn.
And on the art matter, if cheesing is an art, so is playing a game of minesweeper or taking a dump, little effort, hardly any learning involved and aesthetically, it looks like shit.
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Was this thread deleted and remade or something ? I swear there were more posts last time
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On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
But which takes more skill? Proxying 2 gateways in your opponents main and winning because he didn't scout it. Or, managing 3 + bases, having to micro multiple battles across the map all the while making the correct tech swaps to deal with your opponent's army composition.
The longer the game goes on, the more stuff you have to manage to pull out the win. It's a very simple concept and it's the main reason cheese has gained such a bad rep. Btw I'm not saying you should never cheese, you aren't nearly as scary if your opponent knows you will just play passive and greedy every single game.
If there are any old timers still around like myself, you will recall how absurdly cheesy SC2 started out. Pratically every single GSL season 1 or 2 game was a terran pulling all his scvs at the very start of the game or a zerg bane bust/protoss void ray allining. They have since changed the game in the complete opposite direction so that the only real viable strategies are super passive mass expand styles and this has become boring to watch (also to play).
I think a good balance of constant action all game that also favors lots of macro and expansions would have been the right way to do it. Just my opinion of course.
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On January 31 2013 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed. Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right? Show nested quote +lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it. I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort. It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years.
The reason why I myself and alot of others here on TL atleast that i've seen do not like CombatEX isnt because of cheesing, trust me.
On-topic: I like cheese when it's not overused. One trick pony's are boring, cheese is a part of the game, if you dont like you probably shouldnt play Starcraft whether it's Brood War or 2. It's one of the beauties of Starcraft, cause in the end it's a STRATEGY game.
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On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
Sadly, we won't. Despite what many believe, high-level aggressive cheese is much more cerebral than macro play, which is essentially a clicking/focus contest until you get to the professional level. Stupid people can't pull off high-level aggressive cheese, but even stupid people can learn how to macro by rote through grinding out games. There are a lot of stupid people out there whose only chance of winning is to play this way, so chances are good that the prevailing view will continue to be that macro play is "skilled" and aggressive cheese is "unskilled."
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You just look so bad when you cheese and it doesn't work and also feel helpless, that's why I don't do it. I admire the guys that have the balls to be aggressive early on since imo the defender always has an advantage, if you don't scout it's your fault.
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On January 31 2013 00:30 Thinasy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed. Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right? lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it. I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort. It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years. The reason why I myself and alot of others here on TL atleast that i've seen do not like CombatEX isnt because of cheesing, trust me. On-topic: I like cheese when it's not overused. One trick pony's are boring, cheese is a part of the game, if you dont like you probably shouldnt play Starcraft whether it's Brood War or 2. It's one of the beauties of Starcraft, cause in the end it's a STRATEGY game.
CombatEX might have been a bad example but it does show the mindset rather well, the pure cheesers tend to be assholes that don't give a shit about their opponents, hence why streamcheating and other forms are so often used by them.
I suppose one of the big jokes here is that there are no pro players who only cheese, for you to even qualify for pro status you need to master more then a single aspect of the game.
One trick pony's are indeed boring, but that is exactly what the OP is/is about, this is his second thread he made mostly to show off he got into masters by just spamming cheese (which people have done a million times before, OP was clearly incapable of using the search function).
And personally I have never minded cheese much, it's usually easy enough to counter with basic scouting, resulting in free wins, but boring games, sometimes in pro games it can be interesting if there are interesting followups or great feats of micro, sadly enough, in most games the cheese will either win or lose the game right then and unless you're at the highest echelons, don't expect any interesting micro.
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EPT
