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The hope of this thread is to shine some light on what a good cheese is and if I am able to convince even 1 person that cheesing can be a legit way to get better and win then this thread was worth it.
Cheesing from the Liquipedia broodwar article is listed as "an expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." Cheese has always had a bad reputation in almost any game due to the fact that a cheese can be extremely easy to execute and is not reliant on your own skill but the skill of your opponent. However today I will come to the defense of cheese and the level of skill it can be.
First off - Yes there are bad players that cheese to higher brackets then they are in because their opponents do not react or scout properly, now lets get that out of the way and look at what skills the cheeser can have.
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
Economic Cheese - Many terrans cheese without even thinking about it yet no one will call them out on it as cheese. A build that is seen many times in tournaments especially by Flash in many proleague games vs zerg is an ultra fast 3cc in order to get a large economic lead above your opponent and overwhelm them with cost efficient units. This is called "Greedy Play" but I call it no different then doing a 7 roach rush. Why because you are relying on your opponents to not scout it early and abuse the timing where your army will be weak by pushing in with an all-in, so under that first listed definition of cheese it is there to take your opponent by surprise and gives you a huge advantage if unscouted.
Meta game cheesing - This one is also often seen inside of games where a player will proxy a building in a normally unscouted position in order to gain faster reinforcements or a hidden tech advantage. There is also the cheese style from it that you will blindly attack at X timing because 95% of the time they are weak during it.
What is done during a good cheese - Many people will look at the cheese as they fact that its 100% reliant on the opponent messing up, but I would disagree. There are many things a good cheeser can do in order to gain an upper hand against their opponent by feeding a steady chain of lies and deceit to their opponents scouts, as well as its the job of a good cheeser to be able to read and understand very well the meta game currently existing inside of the game in order to be able to abuse it. The lies and deceit form a very simple and every race can do it a quick example would be that you make a drone attack the probe at your natural while doing a 7 roach rush you can even go as far as to hatch and cancel just to make your opponent think that everything is fine and this is just a small example of many things that can be done in order to deceive your opponent making a large amount of the skill of a good cheeser come into effect. As well a good cheeser always has a follow up and is only using the initial cheese as a tool to get ahead not to win the game.
The defence of the cheese!
Why is abusing fast expands a bad thing? In this current meta almost everyone is fast expanding why is it a bad thing to punish greedy players?
Since when does not going into a macro game mean you have less skill? The goal of every build in the game is very simple WIN. If my goal is to 3 base 200 food push and kill you at 11minutes (Stephano roach flood style) how is that any different then saying im going to attempt to kill you at the 6 minute mark? I am simply choosing a different time that I wish to win the game, as long as I plan to follow up on it as zerg I still need to inject, I still need to expand and drone behind it, and while doing all this I need to micro the units I am attacking with I'm just choosing to have the game become active faster.
Just because the meta game is macro and I don't play macro I am apparently worse of a player, right next to the scum of the earth according to many people I play against lots of which find out I am a very nice person and I can in fact beat many masters players even without cheesing.
The conclusion: Cheese can be done by anyone and is pretty easy to pull off, however a truly good cheeser can bring it to the next level and at that point why do we still call it cheese we should call it what it really is and what the commentators call it during a pro game as well it is simply "early aggression".
Poll: So what do you thinkI have always supported "Early Aggression" (182) 57% The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender. (62) 19% Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression" (43) 13% Cheese is still a skilless play style (32) 10% 319 total votes Your vote: So what do you think (Vote): Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression"
(Vote): Cheese is still a skilless play style
(Vote): The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender.
(Vote): I have always supported "Early Aggression"
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I've always believed that cheese is a build. Aplogies of lack of good knowledge but i;m silver-gold player.
You can have a good macro game which is now seen as normal. If you do very early aggression like cannon rushing, 8pool etc there is alot of uncessary hate for it. Like cannon rushing is good if someone cant defend it but in higher leagues its harder to do but you can transition out of it with good macro to get yourself in what i class "normal game".
For example if any of you watch Weedamins he does early agression and wins, then if the agressions fails then trasitions into a build of his chosing. Then if he loses it tends to be because of his macro but he transitions so well to allow him to put himself into a good position from early aggression.
So i believe early agression is viable from low league even till gm. Just if you want to get good, allow yourself to be good in all aspects with rushing, macro, micro all the main aspects and not just depend on early agression.
I will say again after reading my statment that i do lack alot of knowledge just correct me, add on or ague with point which may be right or wrong in your opinion
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I have always supported early aggression but I also think it is easier to do than defending :-)
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On January 30 2013 18:47 Mefano wrote:
I have always supported early aggression but I also think it is easier to do than defending :-)
it's only harder to defend if you do not scout it or are doing a build that is designed to be countered by said cheese strategy, imo
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The most exciting sc2 game you can have in my books is when 2 players go whack builds both mega fail and end up having a proper macro game from there, instead of the boring standard from start, still the beauty of starcraft is there is no right way to play it as long as you keep winning you are doing something right.
Not being cheesy would mean asking your opponent for their supply just so you don't accidentally win by having a bigger army, more workers or better upgrades then you agree on a time when you going to meet middle of the map preferably somewhere where positioning has no importance whatsoever, cross your fingers and hope the better player wins.
All fair game 
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I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really).
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This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
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It's certainly legitimate to cheese now and then. That said, you can't really call yourself a good player if your entire playstyle depends on you gaining an overwhelming advantage at the start of the game (by, for example, 7RRing every terran and killing enough SCVs to be very ahead). Similarly, you can't call yourself a good player if your entire playstyle depends on being able to get away with punishable greed (CC first every game).
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lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it.
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On January 30 2013 23:52 Scootaloo wrote:
This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed.
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On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
I disagree with this. Proper early aggression isn't cheese and has a follow-up, cheese doesn't. The only way cheese has a follow-up is if the cheese didn't fail, at which point you SHOULD have won, but failed to win, so you go for a "followup". A good player spotting and reacting properly to a cheese should have a free win every time, even if the opponent is good and the cheese is well executed.
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On January 30 2013 23:52 Scootaloo wrote:
This is just sounds like you're trying to justify cheesing by looking for people who agree with you.
If you really like to cheese and only cheese, that's fine, but just like a pro who can only cheese, noone will really take you seriously as you are basically a 1-trick pony.
And when you're playing against someone that does actually put time into real strategies (post 7 minute) and you just do your cheese spam, I can understand how they think you're the scum of the earth, if you don't want to learn how to actually play the game beyond some easy cheese builds, then you'll just have to deal with it.
Don't come crying to us because the mean bad macro players tell you you're a shitfucker wasting their time.
Quite frankly, I find your choice of title somewhat offensive, you clearly have no idea what art is, hint, if it takes 5 minutes to make, that ain't it.
Dude, you need to calm down... Probably just got cheesed?
And there is no rules about how long art should take to create. And people who utilize early aggression did take into account time. In fact, I would wager they know perfectly well they cannot win after some point because of say APM limitations. Given their constraints they adjust their strategy accordingly.
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On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really).
I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
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If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed.
Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right?
lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it.
I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort.
It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years.
Dude, you need to calm down... Probably just got cheesed?
And there is no rules about how long art should take to create. And people who utilize early aggression did take into account time. In fact, I would wager they know perfectly well they cannot win after some point because of say APM limitations. Given their constraints they adjust their strategy accordingly.
I'm quite calm, and as you can read I don't get cheesed at all these days, and back when I did I mostly won, so apart from boring games I didn't give a damn.
And on the art matter, if cheesing is an art, so is playing a game of minesweeper or taking a dump, little effort, hardly any learning involved and aesthetically, it looks like shit.
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Was this thread deleted and remade or something ? I swear there were more posts last time
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On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
But which takes more skill? Proxying 2 gateways in your opponents main and winning because he didn't scout it. Or, managing 3 + bases, having to micro multiple battles across the map all the while making the correct tech swaps to deal with your opponent's army composition.
The longer the game goes on, the more stuff you have to manage to pull out the win. It's a very simple concept and it's the main reason cheese has gained such a bad rep. Btw I'm not saying you should never cheese, you aren't nearly as scary if your opponent knows you will just play passive and greedy every single game.
If there are any old timers still around like myself, you will recall how absurdly cheesy SC2 started out. Pratically every single GSL season 1 or 2 game was a terran pulling all his scvs at the very start of the game or a zerg bane bust/protoss void ray allining. They have since changed the game in the complete opposite direction so that the only real viable strategies are super passive mass expand styles and this has become boring to watch (also to play).
I think a good balance of constant action all game that also favors lots of macro and expansions would have been the right way to do it. Just my opinion of course.
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On January 31 2013 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed. Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right? Show nested quote +lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it. I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort. It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years.
The reason why I myself and alot of others here on TL atleast that i've seen do not like CombatEX isnt because of cheesing, trust me.
On-topic: I like cheese when it's not overused. One trick pony's are boring, cheese is a part of the game, if you dont like you probably shouldnt play Starcraft whether it's Brood War or 2. It's one of the beauties of Starcraft, cause in the end it's a STRATEGY game.
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On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
Sadly, we won't. Despite what many believe, high-level aggressive cheese is much more cerebral than macro play, which is essentially a clicking/focus contest until you get to the professional level. Stupid people can't pull off high-level aggressive cheese, but even stupid people can learn how to macro by rote through grinding out games. There are a lot of stupid people out there whose only chance of winning is to play this way, so chances are good that the prevailing view will continue to be that macro play is "skilled" and aggressive cheese is "unskilled."
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You just look so bad when you cheese and it doesn't work and also feel helpless, that's why I don't do it. I admire the guys that have the balls to be aggressive early on since imo the defender always has an advantage, if you don't scout it's your fault.
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On January 31 2013 00:30 Thinasy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed. Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right? lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it. I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort. It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years. The reason why I myself and alot of others here on TL atleast that i've seen do not like CombatEX isnt because of cheesing, trust me. On-topic: I like cheese when it's not overused. One trick pony's are boring, cheese is a part of the game, if you dont like you probably shouldnt play Starcraft whether it's Brood War or 2. It's one of the beauties of Starcraft, cause in the end it's a STRATEGY game.
CombatEX might have been a bad example but it does show the mindset rather well, the pure cheesers tend to be assholes that don't give a shit about their opponents, hence why streamcheating and other forms are so often used by them.
I suppose one of the big jokes here is that there are no pro players who only cheese, for you to even qualify for pro status you need to master more then a single aspect of the game.
One trick pony's are indeed boring, but that is exactly what the OP is/is about, this is his second thread he made mostly to show off he got into masters by just spamming cheese (which people have done a million times before, OP was clearly incapable of using the search function).
And personally I have never minded cheese much, it's usually easy enough to counter with basic scouting, resulting in free wins, but boring games, sometimes in pro games it can be interesting if there are interesting followups or great feats of micro, sadly enough, in most games the cheese will either win or lose the game right then and unless you're at the highest echelons, don't expect any interesting micro.
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One of reasons I got bored with sc2 is that everyone is trying to play "macro " games. I loved to get cheeses, allined and get surprised every game. Even tho games 2 years ago were on "much lower level " they at least were packed with action.
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On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:The hope of this thread is to shine some light on what a good cheese is and if I am able to convince even 1 person that cheesing can be a legit way to get better and win then this thread was worth it. Cheesing from the Liquipedia broodwar article is listed as "an expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." Cheese has always had a bad reputation in almost any game due to the fact that a cheese can be extremely easy to execute and is not reliant on your own skill but the skill of your opponent. However today I will come to the defense of cheese and the level of skill it can be. First off - Yes there are bad players that cheese to higher brackets then they are in because their opponents do not react or scout properly, now lets get that out of the way and look at what skills the cheeser can have. Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese. Economic Cheese - Many terrans cheese without even thinking about it yet no one will call them out on it as cheese. A build that is seen many times in tournaments especially by Flash in many proleague games vs zerg is an ultra fast 3cc in order to get a large economic lead above your opponent and overwhelm them with cost efficient units. This is called "Greedy Play" but I call it no different then doing a 7 roach rush. Why because you are relying on your opponents to not scout it early and abuse the timing where your army will be weak by pushing in with an all-in, so under that first listed definition of cheese it is there to take your opponent by surprise and gives you a huge advantage if unscouted. Meta game cheesing - This one is also often seen inside of games where a player will proxy a building in a normally unscouted position in order to gain faster reinforcements or a hidden tech advantage. There is also the cheese style from it that you will blindly attack at X timing because 95% of the time they are weak during it. What is done during a good cheese - Many people will look at the cheese as they fact that its 100% reliant on the opponent messing up, but I would disagree. There are many things a good cheeser can do in order to gain an upper hand against their opponent by feeding a steady chain of lies and deceit to their opponents scouts, as well as its the job of a good cheeser to be able to read and understand very well the meta game currently existing inside of the game in order to be able to abuse it. The lies and deceit form a very simple and every race can do it a quick example would be that you make a drone attack the probe at your natural while doing a 7 roach rush you can even go as far as to hatch and cancel just to make your opponent think that everything is fine and this is just a small example of many things that can be done in order to deceive your opponent making a large amount of the skill of a good cheeser come into effect. As well a good cheeser always has a follow up and is only using the initial cheese as a tool to get ahead not to win the game. The defence of the cheese! Why is abusing fast expands a bad thing? In this current meta almost everyone is fast expanding why is it a bad thing to punish greedy players? Since when does not going into a macro game mean you have less skill? The goal of every build in the game is very simple WIN. If my goal is to 3 base 200 food push and kill you at 11minutes (Stephano roach flood style) how is that any different then saying im going to attempt to kill you at the 6 minute mark? I am simply choosing a different time that I wish to win the game, as long as I plan to follow up on it as zerg I still need to inject, I still need to expand and drone behind it, and while doing all this I need to micro the units I am attacking with I'm just choosing to have the game become active faster. Just because the meta game is macro and I don't play macro I am apparently worse of a player, right next to the scum of the earth according to many people I play against lots of which find out I am a very nice person and I can in fact beat many masters players even without cheesing. The conclusion: Cheese can be done by anyone and is pretty easy to pull off, however a truly good cheeser can bring it to the next level and at that point why do we still call it cheese we should call it what it really is and what the commentators call it during a pro game as well it is simply "early aggression". Poll: So what do you thinkI have always supported "Early Aggression" (182) 57% The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender. (62) 19% Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression" (43) 13% Cheese is still a skilless play style (32) 10% 319 total votes Your vote: So what do you think (Vote): Maybe there is something to "Early Aggression"
(Vote): Cheese is still a skilless play style
(Vote): The amount of skill on the cheesers side is still too low compared to defender.
(Vote): I have always supported "Early Aggression"
It felt like ages ago when it was fashionable to use cheese and Flash in the same sentence. This was a really unnecessary part of the OP, bad taste.
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On January 31 2013 00:39 threshy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins. Sadly, we won't. Despite what many believe, high-level aggressive cheese is much more cerebral than macro play, which is essentially a clicking/focus contest until you get to the professional level. Stupid people can't pull off high-level aggressive cheese, but even stupid people can learn how to macro by rote through grinding out games. There are a lot of stupid people out there whose only chance of winning is to play this way, so chances are good that the prevailing view will continue to be that macro play is "skilled" and aggressive cheese is "unskilled."
Yeah because it sure takes a ton of intelligence to hide some buildings on the map and catch your opponent with his pants down. I could make the exact same argument for cheese. You have no skill or brains to play a straight up game so you go for the easy mode coin flip build.
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Good to mix in early aggression in a BoX>(1-3). On ladder it doesn't really matter, and in a Bo1-3 I say leave it out. My entire opinion on it.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 31 2013 00:40 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:30 Thinasy wrote:On January 31 2013 00:24 Scootaloo wrote:If someone can only cheese and be a pro, he is doing something quite right indeed. Yeah, that's why pro's have so much respect for people like CombatEX right? lol scootaloo, tell us how you really feel. If cheesers are all so bad its just free wins for you right? And if your still losing to it, maybe your not as good as you think you are.
I personally haven't cheesed in months (so dont call me biased) because I want to practice mid/late game. But eventually im going to go back and sharpen up a few all ins, because its part of being a good SC2 player. Deal with it. I think you misunderstand what a cheese is my friend, the point of cheese is a quick win with minimal effort, it being easy to do is what balances out how bad the player actually is, also, I havn't played this game in a while, might return with HotS, this isn't because of cheese, just getting bored with the game, if you can keep playing the same game for 2 years and not get bored with it, good on you, and FYI, when I did still play cheeses wheren't that much of a problem, and usually did result in a quick win for me, but after stopping 10 cannon rushes or 6 pools, it's pretty hard to still feel good about a win that required little effort. It's good to be able to cheese when you really have to, getting good at it just requires far less effort then getting good at mid/lategame, as such, only learning cheese and ignoring the rest is just a lazy way of playing if you're only out for wins and don't care about any learning to become a better gamer, which for many people is the whole point of playing a game for 2 years. The reason why I myself and alot of others here on TL atleast that i've seen do not like CombatEX isnt because of cheesing, trust me. On-topic: I like cheese when it's not overused. One trick pony's are boring, cheese is a part of the game, if you dont like you probably shouldnt play Starcraft whether it's Brood War or 2. It's one of the beauties of Starcraft, cause in the end it's a STRATEGY game. CombatEX might have been a bad example but it does show the mindset rather well, the pure cheesers tend to be assholes that don't give a shit about their opponents, hence why streamcheating and other forms are so often used by them. I suppose one of the big jokes here is that there are no pro players who only cheese, for you to even qualify for pro status you need to master more then a single aspect of the game. One trick pony's are indeed boring, but that is exactly what the OP is/is about, this is his second thread he made mostly to show off he got into masters by just spamming cheese (which people have done a million times before, OP was clearly incapable of using the search function). And personally I have never minded cheese much, it's usually easy enough to counter with basic scouting, resulting in free wins, but boring games, sometimes in pro games it can be interesting if there are interesting followups or great feats of micro, sadly enough, in most games the cheese will either win or lose the game right then and unless you're at the highest echelons, don't expect any interesting micro.
Not that I agree/disagree with what you're saying, you're wrong about the qualifications for a pro player. The very definition of professional is that you make mOney from something, so if someone makes money through cheesing they are technically a pro player.
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I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games
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On January 31 2013 01:20 LuNa. wrote:
I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games
The skill of a good cheese comes from mind gaming and misleading your opponent prior to the attack as well as being able to follow up, which is the same thing that many macro builds do by showing only select information and denying scouting to either feign aggression or that you are playing passive.
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the diffrence between trying to kill somebody at like 11 minutes or at 4 is at how much oppertunity you want to be in a game for the beter player to shine.
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On January 31 2013 01:20 LuNa. wrote:
I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games
ever watch MVP on atlantis spaceship in gsl finals? my guess is not.
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the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others.
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On January 31 2013 01:36 Yorbon wrote:
the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others.
And some require far more skill/thought than others.
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the meaning of cheese has blown out of proportion with the influx of bunch of noobs in sc2
t_t
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I really like early agression, but I do think that the early agression options from Protoss is a bit to all-inish and that they should have some better options. I enjoy watching early game agression from both Zerg and Terran.
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On January 31 2013 01:48 blackbrrd wrote:
I really like early agression, but I do think that the early agression options from Protoss is a bit to all-inish and that they should have some better options. I enjoy watching early game agression from both Zerg and Terran.
That seems to be part of the goal with the mothership core in HoTS.
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On January 31 2013 01:48 blackbrrd wrote:
I really like early agression, but I do think that the early agression options from Protoss is a bit to all-inish and that they should have some better options. I enjoy watching early game agression from both Zerg and Terran.
I agree 100% that protoss early aggression builds are extremely weak and get telegraphed way too hard terran and zerg have a much easier time feeding misleading information by seeming "normal".
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Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will.
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On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will.
Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed.
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On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed.
You must not have been around during the early days of SC2. Bitbybiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
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There is no doubt at a below pro-level cheese is FAR too easy to execute than it is to defend. End of story. It's a part of the game and i dont expect anyone to stop doing it, because that would make sc2 very boring, but i feel something isnt quite right.
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On January 31 2013 02:03 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed. You must not have been around during the early days of SC2. Bitbybiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
Oh I was. I'm not saying doing it every game is any more interesting than watching bl/infestor vs. colo/mo-ship (watching both is absolutely tragically boring). But in a BoX it only makes sense to mix it in to keep the game pace uneasy for your opponent.
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On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed.
I would agree that there is a level of randomness to cheese your opponent can blind counter you or star sense what you are are doing or even get the right read even with misdirection. However this level of randomness holds true in early aggressive play and macro games, such as if a terran scouts your first colossus spawning and can pump out faster vikings accordingly for the first engagement.
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On January 31 2013 01:26 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:20 LuNa. wrote:
I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games The skill of a good cheese comes from mind gaming and misleading your opponent prior to the attack as well as being able to follow up, which is the same thing that many macro builds do by showing only select information and denying scouting to either feign aggression or that you are playing passive.
I don't see how you can call it a "good" cheese. An all in is an all in, yes some are stronger than others but it's still a coin flip at the end of the day so I'm not sure how one can say that's good. You will win if your opponent plays super greedy or if he just doesn't know how to react properly (which is probably the case in lower leagues) and you will most likely lose if they play safe, have good scouting and react in time. That's why at the highest level of play cheesing doesn't always happen, it's good to throw one in here and there but at the top level those players know how to scout and react to anything. If you're having a lot of success doing cheese builds every game on ladder, no offense to you but I think it has more to do with your opponent than you or the build you choose.
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On January 31 2013 01:34 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:20 LuNa. wrote:
I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games ever watch MVP on atlantis spaceship in gsl finals? my guess is not.
Yes I have and the last time I did, the only reason he won the game was because his opponent over extended after he defended the 2 rax. You probably know what game I'm referring to as well.
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On January 31 2013 02:07 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 02:03 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed. You must not have been around during the early days of SC2. Bitbybiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit Oh I was. I'm not saying doing it every game is any more interesting than watching bl/infestor vs. colo/mo-ship (watching both is absolutely tragically boring). But in a BoX it only makes sense to mix it in to keep the game pace uneasy for your opponent.
I agree with you, it's necessary for pro players but at the same time everyone hates the feeling of losing to cheese. When you get build order owned it just feels cheap. I believe this is how the term cheese came to popularity and the real reason why people frown upon it so much.
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On January 31 2013 02:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 02:07 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 02:03 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed. You must not have been around during the early days of SC2. Bitbybiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit Oh I was. I'm not saying doing it every game is any more interesting than watching bl/infestor vs. colo/mo-ship (watching both is absolutely tragically boring). But in a BoX it only makes sense to mix it in to keep the game pace uneasy for your opponent. I agree with you, it's necessary for pro players but at the same time everyone hates the feeling of losing to cheese. When you get build order owned it just feels cheap. I believe this is how the term cheese came to popularity and the real reason why people frown upon it so much.
True, but the blame shouldn't be thrown at cheese itself. Look at mirror matchups. How many games have we seen where someone wins a PvP because the other guy just forgot an obs or forge? Or how about blindly going Phoenix and the other guy happens to lose because he's going robo? I agree that bo wins suck, but that shit happens in all aspects (less as the game goes forward, but if someone goes 3 hatch before pool unanswered, he's definitely going to have a sick macro advantage).
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On January 31 2013 02:10 LuNa. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:26 Hezzina wrote:On January 31 2013 01:20 LuNa. wrote:
I don't see how you could classify cheesing as an art though. Cheesing is simply an early all in and yes I would say there is little skill involved in doing one. I don't see how executing a 4 Gate is skillful when it's one of the easiest builds you could possibly do but regardless cheesing is simply coin flipping and I don't see how taking a chance requires some sort of skill. Yes you can out micro your opponent while performing a cheese but the actual cheese itself requires little effort to pull off. I would say cheese is good to do from time to time if you were in a tournament but if you cheese every game then I don't see how you can say you're a skilled player. You rely on chance to win games The skill of a good cheese comes from mind gaming and misleading your opponent prior to the attack as well as being able to follow up, which is the same thing that many macro builds do by showing only select information and denying scouting to either feign aggression or that you are playing passive. I don't see how you can call it a "good" cheese. An all in is an all in, yes some are stronger than others but it's still a coin flip at the end of the day so I'm not sure how one can say that's good. You will win if your opponent plays super greedy or if he just doesn't know how to react properly (which is probably the case in lower leagues) and you will most likely lose if they play safe, have good scouting and react in time. That's why at the highest level of play cheesing doesn't always happen, it's good to throw one in here and there but at the top level those players know how to scout and react to anything. If you're having a lot of success doing cheese builds every game on ladder, no offense to you but I think it has more to do with your opponent than you or the build you choose.
In the post I address this issue, most "good" early aggression builds are not an all-in all-ins and cheeses are not mutually exclusive however just because it is one does not mean it is the other, many cheeses have a strong follow up to them however are still reliant on damage being done to equal the economic field. A good cheese also minimizes the coin flip through the ways that I mentioned inside the main post such as reading the meta game, mind gaming your opponent, feeding false information etc...
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On January 31 2013 02:17 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 02:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 02:07 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 02:03 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:56 Mortal wrote:On January 31 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote:
Cheese is bad because it adds elements of randomness to the game. You are hoping your opponent cut a corner, trying to outsmart what they are going to do, but that's just taking a risk, which should never be in a strategy game in the first place. With chess, the game is based off of knowledge, there are "correct" or "perfect" moves at points in the game, so you should never HAVE to rely on luck if you truly that intelligent, but since it has such a high skill cap in terms of strategy/thought/pieces, even moves that aren't "perfect" can still be a good move, but will require the opponent to also fail to make a "perfect" move.
The more chance the game, the more often a player may win despite being a less skilled player. You can consider it skill to be able to predict what your opponent is going to do, but since you have no certainty, it will always be a risk. But since SC2 uses imperfect strategy (cannot see opponents tech, builds, etc.) risks will always be used, and thus, cheese will. Stopped reading right there. This is completely wrong and a ridiculously awful way to look at the game. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when you say "cheese," as most people get it wrong anyway. It's not random, it's perfectly legitimate, and adds depth and interest to the game, when a "cheese" is performed. You must not have been around during the early days of SC2. Bitbybiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit Oh I was. I'm not saying doing it every game is any more interesting than watching bl/infestor vs. colo/mo-ship (watching both is absolutely tragically boring). But in a BoX it only makes sense to mix it in to keep the game pace uneasy for your opponent. I agree with you, it's necessary for pro players but at the same time everyone hates the feeling of losing to cheese. When you get build order owned it just feels cheap. I believe this is how the term cheese came to popularity and the real reason why people frown upon it so much. True, but the blame shouldn't be thrown at cheese itself. Look at mirror matchups. How many games have we seen where someone wins a PvP because the other guy just forgot an obs or forge? Or how about blindly going Phoenix and the other guy happens to lose because he's going robo? I agree that bo wins suck, but that shit happens in all aspects (less as the game goes forward, but if someone goes 3 hatch before pool unanswered, he's definitely going to have a sick macro advantage).
Yep, but PvP is probably the most blatant example of what you're talking about. It's by far the worst offender when it comes to build order ownage due to warp gate (mostly). It became even more random when they nerfed 4 gate because that build specifically was so strong that it simply killed a ton of options protoss players could choose from (which lowered the amount of stuff you had to worry about).
But here is the thing, even White Ra raged about 4 gate in pvp. I can remember him saying something like "gg you gosu 4 gate" when MC owned him with it way back in some gsl match. If something can piss off manner ra.....
Edit: Also I'm not even sure 3 hatch before pool is that great in sc2 due to heavily delaying queen production. I could be wrong but it just seems like a bad idea.
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I love cheese unless my favorite players (*cough* Hero *cough*) lose to it.
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I think alot of the grief towards cheese comes from the fact that it's so damned hard to scout in time. Using your own example of 7RR against protoss FFE, pretending to take a hatch (attack probe / build hatch --> cancel) and the main becomes unscoutable due to a queen emerging on the field and 2-4 lings chasing the probe away from the natural and any xel'naga tower there may be. You have to be very keen to read the small signs that something is awry and even so you can't really be sure because you don't get to scout the zerg main base for the next 5-10 minutes.
On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
Don't include this in what cheese is. Atleast I think the vast majority don't look at an pressure build and consider it cheese. Pressure builds have their own role. Oftentimes they're designed to hit players who play particularly greedy to kill workers, delay tech or perhaps win the game if the defending player fails to defend properly.
This is most prevalent in TvT where you often see players 1rax FE lose 5-10 workers against players going for fast medivac hellion / marine pressure, and the game continuing on equal footing because they both end up with 2 orbitals and equal number of workers. The reason this build is a pressure build and not a cheese is fairly simple, that the defending terran cannot avoid losing marines and scvs if the aggression is properly executed (outside of blind hardcounters).
Cheese can sometimes transition into normal games, but most often the game is over when the cheese works or fails, because the situation is very fragile for both players rarely leading to an even trade.
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On January 31 2013 02:34 JKM wrote:I think alot of the grief towards cheese comes from the fact that it's so damned hard to scout in time. Using your own example of 7RR against protoss FFE, pretending to take a hatch (attack probe / build hatch --> cancel) and the main becomes unscoutable due to a queen emerging on the field and 2-4 lings chasing the probe away from the natural and any xel'naga tower there may be. You have to be very keen to read the small signs that something is awry and even so you can't really be sure because you don't get to scout the zerg main base for the next 5-10 minutes. Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:
Second - Good cheese is not an all-in in most cases it must do something or else you are behind but there does tend to be a follow up to cheese.
Don't include this in what cheese is. Atleast I think the vast majority don't look at an pressure build and consider it cheese. Pressure builds have their own role. Oftentimes they're designed to hit players who play particularly greedy to kill workers, delay tech or perhaps win the game if the defending player fails to defend properly. This is most prevalent in TvT where you often see players 1rax FE lose 5-10 workers against players going for fast medivac hellion / marine pressure, and the game continuing on equal footing because they both end up with 2 orbitals and equal number of workers. The reason this build is a pressure build and not a cheese is fairly simple, that the defending terran cannot avoid losing marines and scvs if the aggression is properly executed (outside of blind hardcounters). Cheese can sometimes transition into normal games, but most often the game is over when the cheese works or fails, because the situation is very fragile for both players rarely leading to an even trade.
Its why I included the "Good" part, yes a cheese can be an all-in but if you have no follow up there is a good chance of losing. I defined what I believe cheese is based off of how liquidpedia described it and I agree, if everyone agrees that this is not the definition of cheese I will gladly change it. However it should be kept in mind "Cheese" and "All-in" are different things although are not mutually exclusive of each other.
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Cheese can be very exciting and is a valuable tactic to have in your arsenal in a bo7 
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On January 31 2013 00:16 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 20:16 reapsen wrote:
I think you create too much threads about topics that have been discussed over and over and over again. Just search for threads containing "cheese" in the title -> Showing 100 results from 100 threads of 659 total results.
Cheese / Early Agression / All-In / call-it-what-you-want has been and will always be part of the game.
Its a legit opportunity to collect quick wins or a way to win against a "better" player. Every one knows they exist, every one has done it, and every one has lost against it. Such losses can be very frustrating, so some folks will get mad.
End of story.
Edit: All of your threads have the flavor of you trying to get belly-licked that you made it into masters by winning some 60 games with 7RR (which is fine, really). I hope we get away from the idea that better players go for macro/late game and avoid early aggression. The better player wins.
Yep. This is why even Nestea 7pools sometimes.
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As someone who plays aggressive I don't really like the argument that its easy. I think at the lower levels (bronze-gold) it can be quite easy to win with cheesy and aggressive play, but the higher up you go the harder it gets to execute and the defender can be in a much better position especially with proper scouting, reacting and positioning. The art of cheesy and aggressive play is to trick your opponent with false information, strategically placed proxys and very good execution. MKP is regarded as one of the best sc2 Terran players for those reasons. Despite his opponents knowing his playstyle he can still make it work whilst the odds are stacked against him.
I think some of the risks with cheesing can be compared similarly to things in the mid game. Tech switches rely on your opponent not scouting them, as well as fast tech such as grabbing a fast hive to get quick broodlords and just hoping you don't get attacked. Its what helps make players individual and gives sc2 a great variety of styles.
Personally I play aggressive because I don't have a lot of time to play (2 nights a week and maybe some time over weekend) last thing I want is to spend 20 or more minutes in a game to lose in a big engagement, after investing a lot of time into that game, my build order and execution.
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On January 31 2013 02:47 GohgamX wrote:Cheese can be very exciting and is a valuable tactic to have in your arsenal in a bo7
All the gsl champs mix in cheeses. If you get too predictable a good opponent will start to hard counter you.
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Idk why people who say cheese is bad because they're taking a risk is a bad thing, IMO risk taking is a good thing, and should be a part of every game. It's why I think chess is unbelievably boring: there's no REAL risk involved, just rote memorization of what your opponent can do, and then what you do, repeat. It's like trying to do nothing but win through build order wins. Booooring.
Risk taking counts on either your own excellent skill or your opponents' lack of skill. It's mindgames. Done properly, it allows you to shine. Yes, there is an element of luck involved, but what game DOESN'T have an element of luck involved?
BW, TL's absolute perfect game, had luck. Dota has luck. Counter strike has some luck. Are they bad games because of it? No. All physical sports have some element of luck. Luck is a good thing for competition.
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On January 31 2013 01:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:36 Yorbon wrote:
the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others. And some require far more skill/thought than others. until wins/losses are determined by how much skill/thought a strategy requires, that is completely irrelevant.
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On January 31 2013 03:14 Thienan567 wrote:Idk why people who say cheese is bad because they're taking a risk is a bad thing, IMO risk taking is a good thing, and should be a part of every game. It's why I think chess is unbelievably boring: there's no REAL risk involved, just rote memorization of what your opponent can do, and then what you do, repeat. It's like trying to do nothing but win through build order wins. Booooring. Risk taking counts on either your own excellent skill or your opponents' lack of skill. It's mindgames. Done properly, it allows you to shine. Yes, there is an element of luck involved, but what game DOESN'T have an element of luck involved? BW, TL's absolute perfect game, had luck. Dota has luck. Counter strike has some luck. Are they bad games because of it? No. All physical sports have some element of luck. Luck is a good thing for competition.
Chess can be played flawlessly by a computer, sc2 with fog of war luck will always be a factor letting humans stay dominant other then micro.
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On January 31 2013 03:14 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:36 Yorbon wrote:
the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others. And some require far more skill/thought than others. until wins/losses are determined by how much skill/thought a strategy requires, that is completely irrelevant.
Ok but who wants to play a game with unbalanced strategies. Especially as a "professional".
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On January 31 2013 04:50 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 03:14 Yorbon wrote:On January 31 2013 01:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:36 Yorbon wrote:
the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others. And some require far more skill/thought than others. until wins/losses are determined by how much skill/thought a strategy requires, that is completely irrelevant. Ok but who wants to play a game with unbalanced strategies. Especially as a "professional".
Professionals really don't care weather a game have unbalanced strategies or not, they care if the strategy help or hurt them making money. That's why they are professionals: they play to make money.
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On January 31 2013 03:14 Thienan567 wrote:Idk why people who say cheese is bad because they're taking a risk is a bad thing, IMO risk taking is a good thing, and should be a part of every game. It's why I think chess is unbelievably boring: there's no REAL risk involved, just rote memorization of what your opponent can do, and then what you do, repeat. It's like trying to do nothing but win through build order wins. Booooring. Risk taking counts on either your own excellent skill or your opponents' lack of skill. It's mindgames. Done properly, it allows you to shine. Yes, there is an element of luck involved, but what game DOESN'T have an element of luck involved? BW, TL's absolute perfect game, had luck. Dota has luck. Counter strike has some luck. Are they bad games because of it? No. All physical sports have some element of luck. Luck is a good thing for competition.
Luck is a good thing for spectator sports. It makes it so that you cant just use some sort of calculator to determine outcomes. Its the degree that luck could effect something that determines whether or not it could be good for competition. In the circumstances listed, such as for BW, luck could play a role, but not always. That is the important thing. For a while, WoW-arena had a short E-sports life and i followed it. WoW-arena had luck too, but the elements of luck were drastically different than those of BW or DotA.
BW//DotA luck
"ill put my proxy X here, he probly wont scout this spot..." "lucky #$%^& scouted the most random location ever...."
"lets gank top lane, should be an easy 3v2" "o, counter ganking exists."
These might be examples of RTS luck, but in WoW-arena's case...
"lets do a quick swap to the healer, hes in a bad position". "OMFG WHAT A DODGE STREAK WTF"
These are 2 very different 'brands' of luck. One is healthy, being simply unable to predict other human's 100% of the time. The other is RNG, a dice roll that potentially determines an entire match. While i dont think that sort of luck killed WoW-arena, i certainly dont think it helped at all.
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The most annoying thing about cheese is people on ladder who feel they are entitled to have their opponents do exactly what they expect and call everything else "cheese". How narrow minded can you be ...
I cheese very rarely, but I'm glad there are cheesers because without them games would become sooo predictable and everyone would go up to five bases and 150 workers before ever walking out on the map with a unit. I hate that trend. I often even find it enjoyable to get cheesed because it adds variety, improvisation and unpredictable outcomes. And defending a cheese is just as gratifying as losing to it is frustrating, so that evens it out to me.
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http://tinyurl.com/am6jzs4 thought this article would be a fun addition to look at while the thread is on the topic of luck in e-Sports. Its is seemingly a 33% chance guessing game, but when you turn it into a thinking games with cheeses its the same where you are taking a % chance of someone using a build in the meta game and then stacking additional %'s in your favor in order to be able to have the highest possible chance of winning at a point.
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On January 31 2013 05:00 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 04:50 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 03:14 Yorbon wrote:On January 31 2013 01:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:On January 31 2013 01:36 Yorbon wrote:
the word cheese needs to go. All strategies/tactics are equal. It's just that some work better than others. And some require far more skill/thought than others. until wins/losses are determined by how much skill/thought a strategy requires, that is completely irrelevant. Ok but who wants to play a game with unbalanced strategies. Especially as a "professional". Professionals really don't care weather a game have unbalanced strategies or not, they care if the strategy help or hurt them making money. That's why they are professionals: they play to make money.
But thats not how it worked out, now is it? When you had pros apologizing for winning games at MLG with 4 gates then you know the game was fundamentally flawed. Only some people only care about making money from esports, others genuinely have a passion for it and would rather play a fair game.
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People would say things to be nice, and they should. Not something you go by as some justification.
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At this point cheese is more fun to watch. The standard 3 base macro games take SO long and its really not any more interesting that a cheese game.
Innovation vs JYP in proleague was an example of an extremely riveting and tense cheese game. Much rarer and more interesting that standard play at this point.
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On January 31 2013 05:35 ragz_gt wrote:
People would say things to be nice, and they should. Not something you go by as some justification.
Uh, ok. Strong argument you got there.
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I like watching cheese, playing vs some cheese is okay, and doing some cheese is okay because too much of one thing (macroooo) can be bad for you. Cheese mixes shit up and makes the game fun, but cheesing all the time is just stupid to me because it's just a coinflip.
Some GM protoss posted a replay pack a while ago and there was a high % of his PvT games where he would either 1 gate exp into 4 gate and commit so hard that it was allin, or he would 3 gate immortal allin. Like, after watching 30 of his games I was thinking that this guy isn't even good, he just flips a coin and apparently that = GM.
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On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote:
Economic Cheese - Many terrans cheese without even thinking about it yet no one will call them out on it as cheese. A build that is seen many times in tournaments especially by Flash in many proleague games vs zerg is an ultra fast 3cc in order to get a large economic lead above your opponent and overwhelm them with cost efficient units. This is called "Greedy Play" but I call it no different then doing a 7 roach rush. Why because you are relying on your opponents to not scout it early and abuse the timing where your army will be weak by pushing in with an all-in, so under that first listed definition of cheese it is there to take your opponent by surprise and gives you a huge advantage if unscouted.
3 OC is much different from the 7RR. The parallels that you mention do exist to some degree, but executing a 3 OC is always going to be more demanding mechanically, and strategically. I say strategically because setting a macro foundation facilitates a dynamic play style, where as with the 7RR the game hinges on one specific engagement that will occur every time you do the build. 3 OC is way less of a risk than 7RR because you have an extra scan or two you can use for scouting all-ins, and you can even lift your nat back into the main. The addition of the 3rd CC comes late enough that scouting information can provoke the terran player to just add a few rax if they can't get away with the 3rd CC right after the nat. The comparison you made shows that you are not acknowledging the rigidity of 7RR, or the risk level relative to 3 OC.
What I have said above does not imply that economic cheese does not exist, just that your example is shitty. Things like CC first into blindly throwing down 4 or 5 rax and just rallying marines, or a nexus first into 4 or 5 blind gateway timing are more comparable to 7RR (but only if these players didn't scout, since scouting really doesn't influence the zerg's choice in going 7RR [you are not making a reaction]).
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Cheese isn't hard to defend. It's not even hard to do. It's just cheese; a random coinflip that you do when you want to. If someone likes flipping coins, to win games, it's hardly necessary to bitch to them about it. There is so little you need to scout to see if they're cheesing or not. Gases at main? No? Okay, doesn't intend to take his natural? Cheese. Gases at main? Both? Okay, obviously cheesing. Gases at main? Single? just wait by his natural to see if it ever comes down, build an army in your base.
I once played against someone that thought that blue flame hellions attacking his mineral lines along with cloaked banshees was a cheese... After he had 7rr'd me and I held it off -__-.
On the other hand, I don't think it helps you learn how to play. Once played against a guy trying to DT rush me, I found out immediately, and dropped a turret so my bunker had vision. I kill all his DTs, and macro at the same time. At ~12 minutes into the game, I'm sitting at 120 food and about to attack him, and he's still on like 50 trying to get Colossi, but somehow he thought he had the game won except "for a small micro error." You really have to be aware of how to play, so you can react, but if you never learn how to play a normal game, you'll only be numb to games that you're only wasting minutes continuing to play.
But I don't know why this has to be discussed ever, someone that wants to coinflip should be allowed to coinflip whenever he wants; it's irrelevant how he plays out his cheese, he gets countered, he loses, he doesn't, he wins. Cheese has no real depth, it's only really fun to watch when it's the last game of a series and both sides are 3-3 (or 2-2 if it's a bo5).
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On January 31 2013 07:46 furerkip wrote:
Cheese isn't hard to defend. It's not even hard to do. It's just cheese; a random coinflip that you do when you want to. If someone likes flipping coins, to win games, it's hardly necessary to bitch to them about it. There is so little you need to scout to see if they're cheesing or not. Gases at main? No? Okay, doesn't intend to take his natural? Cheese. Gases at main? Both? Okay, obviously cheesing. Gases at main? Single? just wait by his natural to see if it ever comes down, build an army in your base.
I once played against someone that thought that blue flame hellions attacking his mineral lines along with cloaked banshees was a cheese... After he had 7rr'd me and I held it off -__-.
On the other hand, I don't think it helps you learn how to play. Once played against a guy trying to DT rush me, I found out immediately, and dropped a turret so my bunker had vision. I kill all his DTs, and macro at the same time. At ~12 minutes into the game, I'm sitting at 120 food and about to attack him, and he's still on like 50 trying to get Colossi, but somehow he thought he had the game won except "for a small micro error." You really have to be aware of how to play, so you can react, but if you never learn how to play a normal game, you'll only be numb to games that you're only wasting minutes continuing to play.
But I don't know why this has to be discussed ever, someone that wants to coinflip should be allowed to coinflip whenever he wants; it's irrelevant how he plays out his cheese, he gets countered, he loses, he doesn't, he wins. Cheese has no real depth, it's only really fun to watch when it's the last game of a series and both sides are 3-3 (or 2-2 if it's a bo5).
Cheese only if done wrong is a coinflip a proper cheese uses scouting against the opponent and uses mind games in order to bring it to a higher % chance of winning the game or equilizing the game calling it a coinflip is like saying poker is a coinflip you read and play your opponent add take a calculated risk.
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People have a warped view of what skill is. Someone earlier in the thread asked if proxying 2 gates in your opponents main takes more skill than a standard opener. Assuming that it wasn't blind, it would take quick thinking and decision making, and then your opponent would obviously lack the common sense to scout/have vision of their main. Macro isn't the only skill in sc2, but people are talking as if it is. A lot of cheese take good decision making, you need to execute them perfectly, and you usually need good micro.
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Cheese possibly has its place in BO3, and for sure has a place in BO5+. However most players that cheese on ladder cheese EVERY game. it is much easier for a macro player to learn a cheese (probably only takes a day of games) than it takes for a cheesy player to learn to macro (read: years.) Early aggression is different than cheese. 1 base cloak banshee is a cheese. If I have a turret/starport you pretty much lose the game. 2 base cloak is early aggression, you can definetly transition out of it. Players that play the former style are pretty much banking on the opponent not catching them, it is highly unreliant on their skill. Pros must have a complete package so they are not predictable.
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On January 31 2013 08:35 Dagan159 wrote:
Cheese possibly has its place in BO3, and for sure has a place in BO5+. However most players that cheese on ladder cheese EVERY game. it is much easier for a macro player to learn a cheese (probably only takes a day of games) than it takes for a cheesy player to learn to macro (read: years.) Early aggression is different than cheese. 1 base cloak banshee is a cheese. If I have a turret/starport you pretty much lose the game. 2 base cloak is early aggression, you can definetly transition out of it. Players that play the former style are pretty much banking on the opponent not catching them, it is highly unreliant on their skill. Pros must have a complete package so they are not predictable.
I would whole heartedly disagree about the learning curve, as I have stated on numerous occasions as well as in the main body of text there must be a follow up to cheese, so during the cheese the cheeser learns the most important mechanic in the game, which is being able to macro while microing. The mechanics if you are going for strong early aggression or trying to go for a 30minute macro game are still the same mechanics.
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The defence of the cheese!
Why is abusing fast expands a bad thing? In this current meta almost everyone is fast expanding why is it a bad thing to punish greedy players?
This is exactly how I feel.
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Cheese - and its defense - are perfectly good in the game, but let's note that there is a fine line between fair early aggression and unfair imba omgwtfbbq (old reapers/bunkers/four gates etc.).
So, don't sweat the cheese but don't forget the (balance) whine.
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On January 31 2013 08:35 Dagan159 wrote:
Cheese possibly has its place in BO3, and for sure has a place in BO5+. However most players that cheese on ladder cheese EVERY game. it is much easier for a macro player to learn a cheese (probably only takes a day of games) than it takes for a cheesy player to learn to macro (read: years.) Early aggression is different than cheese. 1 base cloak banshee is a cheese. If I have a turret/starport you pretty much lose the game. 2 base cloak is early aggression, you can definetly transition out of it. Players that play the former style are pretty much banking on the opponent not catching them, it is highly unreliant on their skill. Pros must have a complete package so they are not predictable.
This is my view of the current meta: As maps became larger people learned how to more safely cut more corners for each race in what became a race to the bottom with the current meta looking like- Toss defends Zerg with a single cannon at natural, Zerg defends Terran with about 4 queens and a spine, and Terran defends with ~1 bunker with mass repair or about 6 hellions and a banshee. Now people feel cheated if they lose to early aggression when they are simultaneously BLINDLY playing one of these ridiculous styles that they lifted from some random pro (who actually scouts), which is supremely silly and about 10 different kinds of stupid. I feel as if an entirely new meta is slowly developing in the exact opposite direction where it is very dynamic and can exploit the one dimensional FE builds from the various races, to keep the greed in check. Or maybe that is just me...
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Cheese is pretty simple. And it doesn't work twice (unless it's an immortal sentry all-in!) It's okay for ladder, and maybe a game in a best-of.. but it fails to make you a well-rounded player, and where-as your cheesing is a way to metagame them; when people know who you are, your cheesy style is going to make it pretty easy for them to metagame you. So I don't really respect it as a full-on playstyle unless it's being performed with a kind of finesse and complexity of execution and metagaming seen in the GSL. Short of that, I personally find it to be pretty simple, and only experience the joy of a win, rather than the satisfaction of playing out a game in the fullest breadth of the game not strictly governed by an obtuse cheese, and the win that follows that.
But I love to play against cheese because it does present a very direct task/challenge that you have to be on top of and that's all there is to beating it. I'm a pretty prepared and able zerg for most cheesing. There gets to be a point where the 'luck' factor of landing on a player who is unprepared for the build you have in store starts to decrease significantly, and the number of builds that are truly viable become limited - and yet people get plenty of experience against those, too, as they naturally become the most practiced builds.
I put some cheese into my game and while it's a minority in my playstyle, I come from a strong background with Warcraft 3 so microing cheese's, or microing at all is pretty easy. A lot of the WC3 players or SC1 players find it odd how much people goggle over feats of micro that appear (and often are) pretty basic to us. And people otherwise have varying degrees of personal talents and degrees of mastery that our perspectives are going to be different about what we see as being impressive or difficult.
Gotta go pick up some soda..
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Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that.
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On January 31 2013 09:52 PanzerElite wrote:
Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that.
This type of post is extremely non constructive, I posted a several paragraph reasoning of why cheesing requires skill and develops long term ability. However you respond with "You cheese therefor you are bad" this is an extremely narrow minded post, care to elaborate in a constructed manner that is able to properly convey a point?
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A further, closing thought xD
For players who have 200+ apm and some basically competent and consistent fundamental micro.. a good well-rounded sense of the game because they are more standard players, at least compared to more exclusively cheesy players..
..Cheese is pretty easy to execute at a high level.
It depends on who you are and who you're talking to!
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On January 31 2013 09:56 Lumi wrote:
A further, closing thought xD
For players who have 200+ apm and some basically competent and consistent fundamental micro.. a good well-rounded sense of the game because they are more standard players, at least compared to more exclusively cheesy players..
..Cheese is pretty easy to execute at a high level.
It depends on who you are and who you're talking to!
I would agree that a normal amount of cheese takes very little skill to pull off, however following a cheesy build order is no different then following say the stephano 2.5 base roach flood and winning. The actual skill of a player comes from them being able to multi-task, adapt, and force their opponent to make mistakes. These three skills do not require a macro game as they are also needed inside of a cheesy game assuming that it is a good cheese with a follow up.
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This is a silly thread. "Cheese" isn't a thing, there's only abuse of the metagame. If the standard was to go 10 rax wall off, then 11/11 wouldn't be considered cheese it'd be considered retardation. People focus WAY too much on all this stuff. Fact is, as a masters player, I made an account with random and randomly played macro games with all races and cheese with all races and got to masters in about 30 games. Being a player that wins a relatively high amount of games at whatever level in question is a mix of mechanics and decision making INCLUDING decision making like cheese based on maps.
I.E: If my main race has been terran, and I pick random and get ZvZ on a good cheese map, I can 6pool and guess I have a statistical 80% chance or so of winning in masters, then if I get TvT I can just play a macro game and this will give me a very high win rate on ladder because I gain the advantage of having the option to cheese (with random too) as well as the chance to macro if it's the best decision for me.
People just need to remember: Whatever is the best decision for winning is what you should do... this doesn't mean it's about winning, but that's the core to playing a game with a competitive element. This includes not raging and studying replays to bring up the level of your "macro games".
Lumi is correct. The more experience you have, the greater you will piece together a skills and idea of the game as a whole.
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I would actually like to add I don't think enough of the best players utilize cheeses enough in tournament play. I'm not saying it's something they should rely on at all, but I do feel like the best players mix in cheese better than many 2nd tier pro's.( I'm looking at you zergs and really top foreigners in general). I think every top player should have some well practiced cheese in their arsenal. So when they pull it out in tournaments they know when they've done enough damage to fall back on macro or when to persist with aggression. It seems like many who pull out cheese in BOX formats do it on a whim and haven't practiced it to the point where they know all the in's and out's and are comfortable with it. It can really help keep your opponent "honest".
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Also, if we're relying on examples of cheese where the ability to play a solid macro game out of it.. aren't we confusing the very distinctions between cheese and non-cheese? It's kind of like you're referencing non-cheesy play as a part of cheesy play, because they both take place in a single game. It seems kind of arbitrary to do, given that they are only linked by transitioning from cheese to non-cheese.. which is just a part of cheesing as it doesn't always end the game right away, nor does it necessarily intend to. With many cheeses, to play a normal macro game for the first 3-9 minutes anyway.
One thing I've noticed is that many players who are in masters still have the mentality of being a "cheesy" player. It only ever really gets them so far. The difference between them and the pros they watch cheesing at the high levels are many, but I specifically want to point out that those pros are all stellar macro players, although they obviously vary in degrees of that still. A lot of players identify with a simple notion of doing cheese like such players, but lack the solid foundation that pros (esp koreans) have. And then they flounder in the face of the challenge of learning the game in its fullest sense.
You could say it's easy to be inspired by Boxer, but much harder than even being an NA GM to actually be him.
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What I am seeing tho is that many people believe that a cheesy player does not get the core mechanics in order to be able to play a macro game when many of skills used in a cheesy game do translate over to a macro game. You still need to learn how to multi task to micro and macro at the same time.
The line between All in - Cheese - Light Early pressure is often very blurred thats why at the start of the thread I attempted to post a definition for the thread to follow. Cheese is when you are doing an early pressure build that puts you behind unless damage is done.
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If this thread's about changing attitudes towards cheese, forget it people will always hate losing to it.
If it's to validate cheese, that depends on your personal goal. Cheesing's an easy way to get higher rank, but good players who know you will beat you easily, so you'll never be able to play in tournaments or matches.
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Cheese is not an art, in fact it's the easiest thing to perform in game, doesn't require much creativity most times and is the only way a much inferior player can win against a better player.
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The thread is to change attitude towards cheese, do I think I can change the entire world with one thread, no, but if I am even able to convince one person the cheese is a valid strategy and not just something that noobs do then I am happy with the outcome.
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I agree with you.
StarCraft isn't a "NORUSH before 25 mins" game. The goal of the game is to win, not building an entiere 200/200 army the fast as possible. and Attack-move your opponent in the middle of the map.
If I scout my opponent doing a stupid build or being too greedy, I'm being smarter/better than him if I can punish him with a cheese or a timing attack.
I don't know why so many people only respect "macro game players".
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People respect good macro game players because they can defend lots of cheese, and that's harder than executing it.
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Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro.
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On January 31 2013 11:47 Scootaloo wrote:
Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro.
You caught me I made this account almost 2 years ago just to start this thread, they thought I was mad when I started this 2 year plan!
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On January 31 2013 11:52 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:47 Scootaloo wrote:
Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro. You caught me I made this account almost 2 years ago just to start this thread, they thought I was mad when I started this 2 year plan!
2 year old account, 38 posts, keep denying, if it's really 2 years old, it clearly wasn't made for posting.
User was warned for this post
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Best way to make cheese harder is to have random positions and 4 corner styles maps and remove all the cross position stuff.
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An arsenal of cheese / and standard builds makes an ideal sc2 player.
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Anything is better than 15 minutes of macroing to max and a 15 second battle into gg. Even though "cheese" in SC2 is not as exciting as it is in BW, it is still fun to watch if both players attack/defend well.
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Russian Federation325 Posts
CHEESE CHEESE ALL-IN SHENANIGANS GIMMICKY STRATEGIES LOLNOOB I SOLID MACRO PLAYER
How did we ever come to this? Is it because of IdrA? Or Artosis commentating? Or massive amount of ladder noobs who can't believe their greedy no scout no micro strategy didn't work?
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On January 31 2013 15:59 purakushi wrote:
Anything is better than 15 minutes of macroing to max and a 15 second battle into gg. Even though "cheese" in SC2 is not as exciting as it is in BW, it is still fun to watch if both players attack/defend well.
Maybe you guys see macro as a bad thing, because you only watch mu's without terran. But remember Bomber's 3 cc into 14 min max +2+2+1 is a thing of beauty since from that moment on we see nonstop action with huge armies till the end because Bomber's supply stays really high since his macro is so good, pumping 16 marines and 3 tanks from that moment on. He simply outproduces his opponents as terran and makes it work with excellent army control. O and the action does last longer than just 15 seconds. So saying all games are NR 20 is bs.
In comparison with cheese this is an art. Cheese isn't (well atleast cheese done by players on ladder), it's easy to pull off and hard to defend. And players that only (l2read OP, it's bold now) cheese on ladder in a BO 1 are scrubs who won't ever be able to compete in tournaments. O and I saw Combat Ex being used as an example. This is a bad example since he doesn't cheese 100% of his opponents and is able to compete in tournaments by playing macro.
So the OP tries to convince himself that he's so gosu by cheesing his way into masters but it's done by so many people it isn't anything worth noting. And when these guys who only cheese try to play macro again their mmr will drop like a rock because they actually didn't improve their gameplay. So if you want easy wins cheese ALL GAMES, if you want to improve play macro games and learn some cheeses for a BO X.
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The only thing i guess i don't like about cheese is not being able to use the map to it's full extent. It's all "up your ramp, into your nat, bait units, into the main." Macro games often end in the middle of the map or at the third.
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On January 31 2013 09:55 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 09:52 PanzerElite wrote:
Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that. This type of post is extremely non constructive, I posted a several paragraph reasoning of why cheesing requires skill and develops long term ability. However you respond with "You cheese therefor you are bad" this is an extremely narrow minded post, care to elaborate in a constructed manner that is able to properly convey a point?
I agree with PanzerElite, here is why (from your other thread):
I don't understand why anyone would play like this (cheesing every ladder game): How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
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Since when does not going into a macro game mean you have less skill?
I really don't understand this logic. If you were to play f.e. PartinG as zerg (and let's assume you know he wont do the WonWonWon). Do you think your chances are higher with a 6pool or going into the lategame?
A cheeser is only following a build order (There is no skill in placing a pool at 6, 7, 8 or 9...), the skill comes in play when the cheese "arrves" where you have the ability to micro and since a cheese is DESIGNED to give you a huge advantage in the early game, you don't need to trade AS efficient as the defender.
Hence, a cheese is nowhere near an example of skill and will only get you free wins, not improve your game.
HOWEVER I think it's a very valid part of the game. I'm really tired of seeing everyone rushing to 3 bases and nothing happens for the first 15 minutes. It feels like Blizzard aswell could let us start on 2bases, that's how boring the current meta game is. So in that way, cheeses are great to keep players straight and not 15cc every game.
But as for people cheesing on the ladder, they're only focused on getting those extra points on the ladder - not improve.
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The reason why macro game seems "legit" and cheese seems not is simple.
A player able to play a macro game will always be able to play cheesy (with a tiny bit of practice).
Whereas an only cheese player will never be able to sustain any kind of past 7 mintues game.
As exemple i can take Gaulzi, the canon rush king. Yes his style is fun, and i enjoy watching his stream sometimes, but everysingle game his cheese fail and the game goes to macro you can see how horrible his mechanics are. It's like watching a platinum. He just try to make a 200/200 protoss A move ball (i.e colossus, archon zealot) and win with that. And more often than not he got raped....
And that guy is higher master/GM master MMR with only canon rushing.
Another exemple, a dude i met got to master for 1 season only bane busting in every single mu. As soon as he got to master he got stomped over and over. He could beat high dia low master, but even mid master could handle his more than well trained banebust skills...
So in the end, cheesing everysingle game is not the way you wanna play cause it doesnt make you any better. You'll grab win against bad/half bad player and that's it. You'll always loose more than you win.
I could hold a 7 roach rush with 1 rax 3cc.... You can try whatever you like, i'll still able to hold it.
So all those topic trying to legitimate cheese over macro... no rlly.
Every player should know some cheese build, but should not rely on them.
And the reason pro dont cheese is because they're rlly good at handling them. Just watch korean players hold anything with 1 bunker and 3 rines..
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I like cannon timing attacks
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*Post content deleted at request of friend*
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It's always weird to me how certain topics on TL are cyclical. I'm sure I've read this one many times.
All your points are valid and all that, but 90% of the ladder (at least) still does it because it's easy.
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On January 31 2013 19:06 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 09:55 Hezzina wrote:On January 31 2013 09:52 PanzerElite wrote:
Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that. This type of post is extremely non constructive, I posted a several paragraph reasoning of why cheesing requires skill and develops long term ability. However you respond with "You cheese therefor you are bad" this is an extremely narrow minded post, care to elaborate in a constructed manner that is able to properly convey a point? I agree with PanzerElite, here is why (from your other thread): I don't understand why anyone would play like this (cheesing every ladder game): How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
When you say "dynamic/expansive strategy" what I hear is "an A-moving deathball in the middle of the map at 12-15 minutes every single game." How is that dynamic? How is a 10 minute 2 medivac push or 15 minute deathball every game dynamic? How is turtling to hive tech every single game dynamic? If you are a fan of dynamic strategy then you should realize how refreshing early aggression is in the face of the obelisk of the current meta.
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On January 31 2013 19:17 TimedOut wrote:
The reason why macro game seems "legit" and cheese seems not is simple.
A player able to play a macro game will always be able to play cheesy (with a tiny bit of practice).
Whereas an only cheese player will never be able to sustain any kind of past 7 mintues game.
As exemple i can take Gaulzi, the canon rush king. Yes his style is fun, and i enjoy watching his stream sometimes, but everysingle game his cheese fail and the game goes to macro you can see how horrible his mechanics are. It's like watching a platinum. He just try to make a 200/200 protoss A move ball (i.e colossus, archon zealot) and win with that. And more often than not he got raped....
And that guy is higher master/GM master MMR with only canon rushing.
Another exemple, a dude i met got to master for 1 season only bane busting in every single mu. As soon as he got to master he got stomped over and over. He could beat high dia low master, but even mid master could handle his more than well trained banebust skills...
So in the end, cheesing everysingle game is not the way you wanna play cause it doesnt make you any better. You'll grab win against bad/half bad player and that's it. You'll always loose more than you win.
I could hold a 7 roach rush with 1 rax 3cc.... You can try whatever you like, i'll still able to hold it.
So all those topic trying to legitimate cheese over macro... no rlly.
Every player should know some cheese build, but should not rely on them.
And the reason pro dont cheese is because they're rlly good at handling them. Just watch korean players hold anything with 1 bunker and 3 rines..
If you think that pros don't cheese then why do I see bunker rushes, 11/11 racks in game 7's (even game 7's of tournament finals) and proxy gates against NaNiWa. Clearly pro's do cheese in fact much of the mind games and meta used to revolve around Terran hiding their first barracks, even if somewhere near their main for a FE build it was far more entertaining and interesting than 15 minute NR that is so very common.
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EPT
