EPTI cheese very rarely, but I'm glad there are cheesers because without them games would become sooo predictable and everyone would go up to five bases and 150 workers before ever walking out on the map with a unit. I hate that trend. I often even find it enjoyable to get cheesed because it adds variety, improvisation and unpredictable outcomes. And defending a cheese is just as gratifying as losing to it is frustrating, so that evens it out to me.
The art of cheese. - Page 4
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
I cheese very rarely, but I'm glad there are cheesers because without them games would become sooo predictable and everyone would go up to five bases and 150 workers before ever walking out on the map with a unit. I hate that trend. I often even find it enjoyable to get cheesed because it adds variety, improvisation and unpredictable outcomes. And defending a cheese is just as gratifying as losing to it is frustrating, so that evens it out to me. | ||
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Hezzina
United States48 Posts
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On January 31 2013 05:00 ragz_gt wrote: Professionals really don't care weather a game have unbalanced strategies or not, they care if the strategy help or hurt them making money. That's why they are professionals: they play to make money. But thats not how it worked out, now is it? When you had pros apologizing for winning games at MLG with 4 gates then you know the game was fundamentally flawed. Only some people only care about making money from esports, others genuinely have a passion for it and would rather play a fair game. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
Innovation vs JYP in proleague was an example of an extremely riveting and tense cheese game. Much rarer and more interesting that standard play at this point. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On January 31 2013 05:35 ragz_gt wrote: People would say things to be nice, and they should. Not something you go by as some justification. Uh, ok. Strong argument you got there. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
Some GM protoss posted a replay pack a while ago and there was a high % of his PvT games where he would either 1 gate exp into 4 gate and commit so hard that it was allin, or he would 3 gate immortal allin. Like, after watching 30 of his games I was thinking that this guy isn't even good, he just flips a coin and apparently that = GM. | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On January 30 2013 18:14 Hezzina wrote: Economic Cheese - Many terrans cheese without even thinking about it yet no one will call them out on it as cheese. A build that is seen many times in tournaments especially by Flash in many proleague games vs zerg is an ultra fast 3cc in order to get a large economic lead above your opponent and overwhelm them with cost efficient units. This is called "Greedy Play" but I call it no different then doing a 7 roach rush. Why because you are relying on your opponents to not scout it early and abuse the timing where your army will be weak by pushing in with an all-in, so under that first listed definition of cheese it is there to take your opponent by surprise and gives you a huge advantage if unscouted. 3 OC is much different from the 7RR. The parallels that you mention do exist to some degree, but executing a 3 OC is always going to be more demanding mechanically, and strategically. I say strategically because setting a macro foundation facilitates a dynamic play style, where as with the 7RR the game hinges on one specific engagement that will occur every time you do the build. 3 OC is way less of a risk than 7RR because you have an extra scan or two you can use for scouting all-ins, and you can even lift your nat back into the main. The addition of the 3rd CC comes late enough that scouting information can provoke the terran player to just add a few rax if they can't get away with the 3rd CC right after the nat. The comparison you made shows that you are not acknowledging the rigidity of 7RR, or the risk level relative to 3 OC. What I have said above does not imply that economic cheese does not exist, just that your example is shitty. Things like CC first into blindly throwing down 4 or 5 rax and just rallying marines, or a nexus first into 4 or 5 blind gateway timing are more comparable to 7RR (but only if these players didn't scout, since scouting really doesn't influence the zerg's choice in going 7RR [you are not making a reaction]). | ||
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furerkip
United States439 Posts
I once played against someone that thought that blue flame hellions attacking his mineral lines along with cloaked banshees was a cheese... After he had 7rr'd me and I held it off -__-. On the other hand, I don't think it helps you learn how to play. Once played against a guy trying to DT rush me, I found out immediately, and dropped a turret so my bunker had vision. I kill all his DTs, and macro at the same time. At ~12 minutes into the game, I'm sitting at 120 food and about to attack him, and he's still on like 50 trying to get Colossi, but somehow he thought he had the game won except "for a small micro error." You really have to be aware of how to play, so you can react, but if you never learn how to play a normal game, you'll only be numb to games that you're only wasting minutes continuing to play. But I don't know why this has to be discussed ever, someone that wants to coinflip should be allowed to coinflip whenever he wants; it's irrelevant how he plays out his cheese, he gets countered, he loses, he doesn't, he wins. Cheese has no real depth, it's only really fun to watch when it's the last game of a series and both sides are 3-3 (or 2-2 if it's a bo5). | ||
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Hezzina
United States48 Posts
On January 31 2013 07:46 furerkip wrote: Cheese isn't hard to defend. It's not even hard to do. It's just cheese; a random coinflip that you do when you want to. If someone likes flipping coins, to win games, it's hardly necessary to bitch to them about it. There is so little you need to scout to see if they're cheesing or not. Gases at main? No? Okay, doesn't intend to take his natural? Cheese. Gases at main? Both? Okay, obviously cheesing. Gases at main? Single? just wait by his natural to see if it ever comes down, build an army in your base. I once played against someone that thought that blue flame hellions attacking his mineral lines along with cloaked banshees was a cheese... After he had 7rr'd me and I held it off -__-. On the other hand, I don't think it helps you learn how to play. Once played against a guy trying to DT rush me, I found out immediately, and dropped a turret so my bunker had vision. I kill all his DTs, and macro at the same time. At ~12 minutes into the game, I'm sitting at 120 food and about to attack him, and he's still on like 50 trying to get Colossi, but somehow he thought he had the game won except "for a small micro error." You really have to be aware of how to play, so you can react, but if you never learn how to play a normal game, you'll only be numb to games that you're only wasting minutes continuing to play. But I don't know why this has to be discussed ever, someone that wants to coinflip should be allowed to coinflip whenever he wants; it's irrelevant how he plays out his cheese, he gets countered, he loses, he doesn't, he wins. Cheese has no real depth, it's only really fun to watch when it's the last game of a series and both sides are 3-3 (or 2-2 if it's a bo5). Cheese only if done wrong is a coinflip a proper cheese uses scouting against the opponent and uses mind games in order to bring it to a higher % chance of winning the game or equilizing the game calling it a coinflip is like saying poker is a coinflip you read and play your opponent add take a calculated risk. | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Dagan159
United States203 Posts
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Hezzina
United States48 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:35 Dagan159 wrote: Cheese possibly has its place in BO3, and for sure has a place in BO5+. However most players that cheese on ladder cheese EVERY game. it is much easier for a macro player to learn a cheese (probably only takes a day of games) than it takes for a cheesy player to learn to macro (read: years.) Early aggression is different than cheese. 1 base cloak banshee is a cheese. If I have a turret/starport you pretty much lose the game. 2 base cloak is early aggression, you can definetly transition out of it. Players that play the former style are pretty much banking on the opponent not catching them, it is highly unreliant on their skill. Pros must have a complete package so they are not predictable. I would whole heartedly disagree about the learning curve, as I have stated on numerous occasions as well as in the main body of text there must be a follow up to cheese, so during the cheese the cheeser learns the most important mechanic in the game, which is being able to macro while microing. The mechanics if you are going for strong early aggression or trying to go for a 30minute macro game are still the same mechanics. | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
The defence of the cheese! Why is abusing fast expands a bad thing? In this current meta almost everyone is fast expanding why is it a bad thing to punish greedy players? This is exactly how I feel. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
So, don't sweat the cheese but don't forget the (balance) whine. | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:35 Dagan159 wrote: Cheese possibly has its place in BO3, and for sure has a place in BO5+. However most players that cheese on ladder cheese EVERY game. it is much easier for a macro player to learn a cheese (probably only takes a day of games) than it takes for a cheesy player to learn to macro (read: years.) Early aggression is different than cheese. 1 base cloak banshee is a cheese. If I have a turret/starport you pretty much lose the game. 2 base cloak is early aggression, you can definetly transition out of it. Players that play the former style are pretty much banking on the opponent not catching them, it is highly unreliant on their skill. Pros must have a complete package so they are not predictable. This is my view of the current meta: As maps became larger people learned how to more safely cut more corners for each race in what became a race to the bottom with the current meta looking like- Toss defends Zerg with a single cannon at natural, Zerg defends Terran with about 4 queens and a spine, and Terran defends with ~1 bunker with mass repair or about 6 hellions and a banshee. Now people feel cheated if they lose to early aggression when they are simultaneously BLINDLY playing one of these ridiculous styles that they lifted from some random pro (who actually scouts), which is supremely silly and about 10 different kinds of stupid. I feel as if an entirely new meta is slowly developing in the exact opposite direction where it is very dynamic and can exploit the one dimensional FE builds from the various races, to keep the greed in check. Or maybe that is just me... | ||
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Lumi
United States1616 Posts
But I love to play against cheese because it does present a very direct task/challenge that you have to be on top of and that's all there is to beating it. I'm a pretty prepared and able zerg for most cheesing. There gets to be a point where the 'luck' factor of landing on a player who is unprepared for the build you have in store starts to decrease significantly, and the number of builds that are truly viable become limited - and yet people get plenty of experience against those, too, as they naturally become the most practiced builds. I put some cheese into my game and while it's a minority in my playstyle, I come from a strong background with Warcraft 3 so microing cheese's, or microing at all is pretty easy. A lot of the WC3 players or SC1 players find it odd how much people goggle over feats of micro that appear (and often are) pretty basic to us. And people otherwise have varying degrees of personal talents and degrees of mastery that our perspectives are going to be different about what we see as being impressive or difficult. Gotta go pick up some soda.. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
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Hezzina
United States48 Posts
On January 31 2013 09:52 PanzerElite wrote: Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that. This type of post is extremely non constructive, I posted a several paragraph reasoning of why cheesing requires skill and develops long term ability. However you respond with "You cheese therefor you are bad" this is an extremely narrow minded post, care to elaborate in a constructed manner that is able to properly convey a point? | ||
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Lumi
United States1616 Posts
For players who have 200+ apm and some basically competent and consistent fundamental micro.. a good well-rounded sense of the game because they are more standard players, at least compared to more exclusively cheesy players.. ..Cheese is pretty easy to execute at a high level. It depends on who you are and who you're talking to! | ||
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