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On January 31 2013 09:56 Lumi wrote:
A further, closing thought xD
For players who have 200+ apm and some basically competent and consistent fundamental micro.. a good well-rounded sense of the game because they are more standard players, at least compared to more exclusively cheesy players..
..Cheese is pretty easy to execute at a high level.
It depends on who you are and who you're talking to!
I would agree that a normal amount of cheese takes very little skill to pull off, however following a cheesy build order is no different then following say the stephano 2.5 base roach flood and winning. The actual skill of a player comes from them being able to multi-task, adapt, and force their opponent to make mistakes. These three skills do not require a macro game as they are also needed inside of a cheesy game assuming that it is a good cheese with a follow up.
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This is a silly thread. "Cheese" isn't a thing, there's only abuse of the metagame. If the standard was to go 10 rax wall off, then 11/11 wouldn't be considered cheese it'd be considered retardation. People focus WAY too much on all this stuff. Fact is, as a masters player, I made an account with random and randomly played macro games with all races and cheese with all races and got to masters in about 30 games. Being a player that wins a relatively high amount of games at whatever level in question is a mix of mechanics and decision making INCLUDING decision making like cheese based on maps.
I.E: If my main race has been terran, and I pick random and get ZvZ on a good cheese map, I can 6pool and guess I have a statistical 80% chance or so of winning in masters, then if I get TvT I can just play a macro game and this will give me a very high win rate on ladder because I gain the advantage of having the option to cheese (with random too) as well as the chance to macro if it's the best decision for me.
People just need to remember: Whatever is the best decision for winning is what you should do... this doesn't mean it's about winning, but that's the core to playing a game with a competitive element. This includes not raging and studying replays to bring up the level of your "macro games".
Lumi is correct. The more experience you have, the greater you will piece together a skills and idea of the game as a whole.
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I would actually like to add I don't think enough of the best players utilize cheeses enough in tournament play. I'm not saying it's something they should rely on at all, but I do feel like the best players mix in cheese better than many 2nd tier pro's.( I'm looking at you zergs and really top foreigners in general). I think every top player should have some well practiced cheese in their arsenal. So when they pull it out in tournaments they know when they've done enough damage to fall back on macro or when to persist with aggression. It seems like many who pull out cheese in BOX formats do it on a whim and haven't practiced it to the point where they know all the in's and out's and are comfortable with it. It can really help keep your opponent "honest".
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Also, if we're relying on examples of cheese where the ability to play a solid macro game out of it.. aren't we confusing the very distinctions between cheese and non-cheese? It's kind of like you're referencing non-cheesy play as a part of cheesy play, because they both take place in a single game. It seems kind of arbitrary to do, given that they are only linked by transitioning from cheese to non-cheese.. which is just a part of cheesing as it doesn't always end the game right away, nor does it necessarily intend to. With many cheeses, to play a normal macro game for the first 3-9 minutes anyway.
One thing I've noticed is that many players who are in masters still have the mentality of being a "cheesy" player. It only ever really gets them so far. The difference between them and the pros they watch cheesing at the high levels are many, but I specifically want to point out that those pros are all stellar macro players, although they obviously vary in degrees of that still. A lot of players identify with a simple notion of doing cheese like such players, but lack the solid foundation that pros (esp koreans) have. And then they flounder in the face of the challenge of learning the game in its fullest sense.
You could say it's easy to be inspired by Boxer, but much harder than even being an NA GM to actually be him.
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What I am seeing tho is that many people believe that a cheesy player does not get the core mechanics in order to be able to play a macro game when many of skills used in a cheesy game do translate over to a macro game. You still need to learn how to multi task to micro and macro at the same time.
The line between All in - Cheese - Light Early pressure is often very blurred thats why at the start of the thread I attempted to post a definition for the thread to follow. Cheese is when you are doing an early pressure build that puts you behind unless damage is done.
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If this thread's about changing attitudes towards cheese, forget it people will always hate losing to it.
If it's to validate cheese, that depends on your personal goal. Cheesing's an easy way to get higher rank, but good players who know you will beat you easily, so you'll never be able to play in tournaments or matches.
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Cheese is not an art, in fact it's the easiest thing to perform in game, doesn't require much creativity most times and is the only way a much inferior player can win against a better player.
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The thread is to change attitude towards cheese, do I think I can change the entire world with one thread, no, but if I am even able to convince one person the cheese is a valid strategy and not just something that noobs do then I am happy with the outcome.
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I agree with you.
StarCraft isn't a "NORUSH before 25 mins" game. The goal of the game is to win, not building an entiere 200/200 army the fast as possible. and Attack-move your opponent in the middle of the map.
If I scout my opponent doing a stupid build or being too greedy, I'm being smarter/better than him if I can punish him with a cheese or a timing attack.
I don't know why so many people only respect "macro game players".
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People respect good macro game players because they can defend lots of cheese, and that's harder than executing it.
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Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro.
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On January 31 2013 11:47 Scootaloo wrote:
Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro.
You caught me I made this account almost 2 years ago just to start this thread, they thought I was mad when I started this 2 year plan!
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On January 31 2013 11:52 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 11:47 Scootaloo wrote:
Oh boy, a thread where half the posts are OP's, who made the account just for this crusade to make constantly cheesing acceptable.
You're defending this whole thing so valiantly I believe you yourself know it's wrong, basic empathy, losing to cheese feels bad, unless you have mental problems, you don't want people to feel bad, there are no pro's that only cheese, and the few well known players that do are usually considered assholes by the community.
Also, the idea that you learn everything you need to know from just cheesing is easily tested, go play 100 macro games Hezzina, if your win percentage doesn't significantly drop, clearly, cheese is equal to macroing skill wise.
And when that fails, you can stop this idiotic endeavor and accept what every pro or person with a brain will tell you, that cheesing is far easier then macro. You caught me I made this account almost 2 years ago just to start this thread, they thought I was mad when I started this 2 year plan!
2 year old account, 38 posts, keep denying, if it's really 2 years old, it clearly wasn't made for posting.
User was warned for this post
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Best way to make cheese harder is to have random positions and 4 corner styles maps and remove all the cross position stuff.
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An arsenal of cheese / and standard builds makes an ideal sc2 player.
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Anything is better than 15 minutes of macroing to max and a 15 second battle into gg. Even though "cheese" in SC2 is not as exciting as it is in BW, it is still fun to watch if both players attack/defend well.
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Russian Federation325 Posts
CHEESE CHEESE ALL-IN SHENANIGANS GIMMICKY STRATEGIES LOLNOOB I SOLID MACRO PLAYER
How did we ever come to this? Is it because of IdrA? Or Artosis commentating? Or massive amount of ladder noobs who can't believe their greedy no scout no micro strategy didn't work?
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On January 31 2013 15:59 purakushi wrote:
Anything is better than 15 minutes of macroing to max and a 15 second battle into gg. Even though "cheese" in SC2 is not as exciting as it is in BW, it is still fun to watch if both players attack/defend well.
Maybe you guys see macro as a bad thing, because you only watch mu's without terran. But remember Bomber's 3 cc into 14 min max +2+2+1 is a thing of beauty since from that moment on we see nonstop action with huge armies till the end because Bomber's supply stays really high since his macro is so good, pumping 16 marines and 3 tanks from that moment on. He simply outproduces his opponents as terran and makes it work with excellent army control. O and the action does last longer than just 15 seconds. So saying all games are NR 20 is bs.
In comparison with cheese this is an art. Cheese isn't (well atleast cheese done by players on ladder), it's easy to pull off and hard to defend. And players that only (l2read OP, it's bold now) cheese on ladder in a BO 1 are scrubs who won't ever be able to compete in tournaments. O and I saw Combat Ex being used as an example. This is a bad example since he doesn't cheese 100% of his opponents and is able to compete in tournaments by playing macro.
So the OP tries to convince himself that he's so gosu by cheesing his way into masters but it's done by so many people it isn't anything worth noting. And when these guys who only cheese try to play macro again their mmr will drop like a rock because they actually didn't improve their gameplay. So if you want easy wins cheese ALL GAMES, if you want to improve play macro games and learn some cheeses for a BO X.
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The only thing i guess i don't like about cheese is not being able to use the map to it's full extent. It's all "up your ramp, into your nat, bait units, into the main." Macro games often end in the middle of the map or at the third.
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On January 31 2013 09:55 Hezzina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 09:52 PanzerElite wrote:
Cheese is good for a BO X, cheesing every game on ladder means you're an scrub. Simple as that. This type of post is extremely non constructive, I posted a several paragraph reasoning of why cheesing requires skill and develops long term ability. However you respond with "You cheese therefor you are bad" this is an extremely narrow minded post, care to elaborate in a constructed manner that is able to properly convey a point?
I agree with PanzerElite, here is why (from your other thread):
I don't understand why anyone would play like this (cheesing every ladder game): How are you ever going to win a best of 3? I guess you are keeping people honest about scouting for a one base attack, but do binary win conditions really facilitate internal psychological distortion to the point where you feel anything rewarding from these victories? Is this why you are so eager to discuss such a topic; insecurity? People in master league will usually scout and stop this play easily unless they also got there through similar coin-flip style. By playing this way you are essentially committed to an eternal role of servitude in which you condition and refine the play of those making efforts to establish a dynamic/expansive strategy.
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EPT
