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On November 21 2012 23:17 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:12 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:[quote] In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings  Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with harass and the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now. Then you didn't understand my argument, let me try to rephrase it. Zergs HAVE to build that static defense considering how efficent those drop will be when they can't be shut down. (the only thing a toss loses, flying into a base and seeing that there is too much, are opportunity costs which are pretty much irrelevant in 200/200 situations) My problem is less with slow prisms controlled by diamond players. My problem is speed prisms controlled by masters+ players in lategame. Zerg will be uinder the constant fear of getting dropped. This will set them even FURTHER into the mindset of turtling. You will create a game which gets MORE stalemate since zerg has to invest a lot more into static defense without having the ability to shut down a drop cost-efficently. Would projectile base fungal do that? Yes. Would it be hard too pull of in terms micro/awarness? Yes. That is what I call interesting. But then you can't beat BL/infestor. Fungal projectile doesn't change ANYTHING in PvZ.
Why you can't do that when fungal is a projectile?
You could then DODGE fungal. You know, doing the same stuff Terran allready needs to do in vZ and vP.
Actual micro and stuff. If you now say: but you only press the F button.
Hey dude, same could terran say to you pressing the T button, thats how spellcaster work.
fungal being a projectile would maybe allow for some interesting SWP templar feedback drops into infestors and stuff like that.
And to adress the problem in a real way, wait about 4 month. Then there will come some huge game and groundbreaking patch called: HotS.
On November 21 2012 23:19 YourGoodFriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW.
The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap.
And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins... Wait why are you complaining? Its a map designed to TEST this idea. Not implement it in its entirety. It's to see if it will work, so instead of complaining about an idea why don't you test it and leave constructive feedback to them. Hmmm seems like a valuable use of your time to me. Show nested quote +We don't think there’s a large problem here, but we do agree that it’s worth trying to make things better by allowing some different options for players facing Zerg opponents.
I am not complaing. I am discussing.
But since the only things you will get as replys are barroom cliches and not real arguments I will step out of this "discussion".
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On November 21 2012 22:55 kebeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. I'm not really talking about detection as much. In regards to defense which is my bigger issue. Warp prism harass is strong without the fungal nerf, if used correctly. With the nerf now, yes we can have spore crawlers and overseers everywhere, but the prisms aren't going to be able to be fungaled and taking out, which pretty much lets the the warp prism's have free reign as long as they are used intelligently.
There's some awful responses along these lines filling the thread, sure if you do what you're doing now you can't defend wp harras, but right now all you need do is have an infestor and some spines, a whole 2 supply... the WP costs that before it warps/drops a unit. Harrass is supposed to be hard to deal with.
Now you have to have a spore, some spines around tech, have an overseer and some defensive lings that can run between bases. Sure its harder but it can be stopped. You can get a few corrupters or even mutas to hunt down the prisms rather than just having them die regardless, the prisms fast but its pylon modes static and the transition is slow. Defense this way costs resource, APM and supply but thats good, the issue is the Inf-BL deathballs too powerful. Needing more supply for defence means over investment in it can get you killed.
I'm a random, zergs my strongest race. The fact that other races have better ways of dealing with some things is irrelevant, zerg gets more bases->mo-money and the strongest late game army in the game using just 2 units. If a 4+medivac drop gets off in TvP P usually dies, but thats not a case for giving fungal to protoss, they have to have units in position to defend it.
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this could be very interesting
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On November 21 2012 23:20 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:17 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:12 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with harass and the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now. Then you didn't understand my argument, let me try to rephrase it. Zergs HAVE to build that static defense considering how efficent those drop will be when they can't be shut down. (the only thing a toss loses, flying into a base and seeing that there is too much, are opportunity costs which are pretty much irrelevant in 200/200 situations) My problem is less with slow prisms controlled by diamond players. My problem is speed prisms controlled by masters+ players in lategame. Zerg will be uinder the constant fear of getting dropped. This will set them even FURTHER into the mindset of turtling. You will create a game which gets MORE stalemate since zerg has to invest a lot more into static defense without having the ability to shut down a drop cost-efficently. Would projectile base fungal do that? Yes. Would it be hard too pull of in terms micro/awarness? Yes. That is what I call interesting. But then you can't beat BL/infestor. Fungal projectile doesn't change ANYTHING in PvZ. Why you can't do that when fungal is a projectile? You could then DODGE fungal. You know, doing the same stuff Terran allready needs to do in vZ and vP. Actual micro and stuff. If you now say: but you only press the F button. Hey dude, same could terran say to you pressing the T button, thats how spellcaster work. fungal being a projectile would maybe allow for some interesting SWP templar feedback drops into infestors and stuff like that. And to adress the problem in a real way, wait about 4 month. Then there will come some huge game and groundbreaking patch called: HotS.
Except our AEO doesn't hold the terran in place... like I said earlier quite QQ'ing and go test it out and leave feedback. This is a TEST map for Auir's sake. Oh and the projectile would only slightly change it so itnstead of all our units getting caught just most of them would so instead of insta GG it would be a longer GG.
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Zealot/dt warp-ins with sentries blocking the ramp. They should just pull the map and start over, this will not work.
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On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:
[quote]
Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins...
I am sorry, wait. Terran and protoss are able to stop Warp Prisim drops without a root ability that also causes damage. Both have less map “natural” map awareness than zerg and slower armies. Also, they do not have an anti air unit stationed at every base or static defense/detection that can be relocated. Also, both terran and protoss have to use production time to build mobile detectors.
I fail to see how zerg is ill equipped to deal with DTs in the late game without fungle.
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Blizzard isn't going the right direction with this.
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wtf, no fungal on sentries? are you joking?
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On November 21 2012 23:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW.
The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap.
And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins... I am sorry, wait. Terran and protoss are able to stop Warp Prisim drops without a root ability that also causes damage. Both have less map “natural” map awareness than zerg and slower armies. Also, they do not have an anti air unit stationed at every base or static defense/detection that can be relocated. Also, both terran and protoss have to use production time to build mobile detectors. I fail to see how zerg is ill equipped to deal with DTs in the late game without fungle.
Blink-stalkers and stimmed marines are pretty good against air. Speedlings not so much.
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Lol, now I can afford an extra... half of a Thor with my first push...
Thanks?
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on a sidenote: this kills mech in highlevel tvz because ghosts are now too important to miss and pretty much need the bio infrastructure and upgrades. makes me very sad.
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I dont like the Infestor change..
broodlords will still kill Ghosts with eas, Queen / Broodlord / Couroptor synergy is still very very strong and Infested Terrans are still as strong as they are nowadays, they should increase the costs of IT defenitly. and or make the eggs more vunerabal to splashdmg.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:20 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:17 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:12 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with harass and the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now. Then you didn't understand my argument, let me try to rephrase it. Zergs HAVE to build that static defense considering how efficent those drop will be when they can't be shut down. (the only thing a toss loses, flying into a base and seeing that there is too much, are opportunity costs which are pretty much irrelevant in 200/200 situations) My problem is less with slow prisms controlled by diamond players. My problem is speed prisms controlled by masters+ players in lategame. Zerg will be uinder the constant fear of getting dropped. This will set them even FURTHER into the mindset of turtling. You will create a game which gets MORE stalemate since zerg has to invest a lot more into static defense without having the ability to shut down a drop cost-efficently. Would projectile base fungal do that? Yes. Would it be hard too pull of in terms micro/awarness? Yes. That is what I call interesting. But then you can't beat BL/infestor. Fungal projectile doesn't change ANYTHING in PvZ. Why you can't do that when fungal is a projectile? You could then DODGE fungal. You know, doing the same stuff Terran allready needs to do in vZ and vP. Actual micro and stuff. If you now say: but you only press the F button. Hey dude, same could terran say to you pressing the T button, thats how spellcaster work. fungal being a projectile would maybe allow for some interesting SWP templar feedback drops into infestors and stuff like that. And to adress the problem in a real way, wait about 4 month. Then there will come some huge game and groundbreaking patch called: HotS.
You can't dodge fungal, that's the thing. You can either engage or not engage BL/infestor. If you engage it as protoss, what do you do? You blink your stalkers in. Once they're blinked in, you can't avoid fungal, doesn't matter if it's projectile based or not. If you don't blink in, they get blocked by broodlings. If they don't get blocked by broodlings, they get fungaled. This happens to every ground unit that doesn't have blink: archons, HTs... you see where I'm going with this? You can't engage BL/infestor without fully committing to the fight and once you're committed you cannot dodge fungal. And now suddenly there are units (archons, HTs) that can get close because fungal doesn't affect them. That's what solves the problem potentially.
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Really good changes, my confidence in Blizzard just went up a few notches
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My first impression after the first game as Zerg: bye bye turtling Zergs.
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On second thought this seems like a more reasonable change for fungal since P can't dodge fungal as easy as T in the early game thus rendering the "projectile" change a bit problematic. Also blinkstalkers don't get buffed this way.
It's also some kind of protection for the low hp unit sentry which has low range anyways.
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Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.
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Unsure if this hasn't been mentioned but the biggest thing in my opinion from the warp prism and HT being immune to fungal is reaver style play against zerg.
This is micro intensive, dropping high templar, storming or feedbacking all those infestors and if possible leaping back into the warp prism immediately
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On November 21 2012 23:35 coko wrote:
Unsure if this hasn't been mentioned but the biggest thing in my opinion from the warp prism and HT being immune to fungal is reaver style play against zerg.
This is micro intensive, dropping high templar, storming or feedbacking all those infestors and if possible leaping back into the warp prism immediately
Which is awesome.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Would DT/Phoenix be a decent build now in PvZ? Seeing as the Zerg's only mobile detection is the Overseer.
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EPT
