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On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it.
Why so mad bro?
Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch.
Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once.
Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right?
It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 22:27 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:23 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 22:17 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:07 bluQ wrote:
oh and can someone explain to me how zerg should ever kill a speedprism? Considering zerg has way faster air to air than terran, how should terran ever kill a speed prism? (Hint: we do fine). Hello, my name is stimmed marine. And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines). And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords. Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings  Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness...
Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now.
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By immune to fungal I can only assume that this means ghosts and DTs respectively would remain cloaked if fungaled as well, which should make for some interesting changes (No more Protoss having to constantly churn out Observers, and potential use of Overseers and contamination ^^). I will be curious to see how these changes pan out, will have to check out the map after work.
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Has a Zerg, i like those changes except for the super fast Warp Prism (when they get that gewd upgrade), how in hell am i suppose to catch the prism without going mutas or fast corrupts ( which is really bad)...
I like the fact for DT's, it will push all the zerg players to make good use of overseer and not just because of detection but also scouting with the chaneling (which i think lowbies are not doing and they should)
Will try out the map tonight, GLHF !
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On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 22:27 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:23 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 22:17 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
Considering zerg has way faster air to air than terran, how should terran ever kill a speed prism? (Hint: we do fine).
Hello, my name is stimmed marine. And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines). And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords. Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now.
They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran.
If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs.
Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs).
We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores.
You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go.
And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change.
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Who even uses Raven for HSM anyway? Most of their energy is dumped on the PDDs, as those are much more useful in most scenarios.
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On November 21 2012 22:46 Reality_Seeker wrote:
I don't like the seeker missile change cos it will lead to 1/1/1 with ravens and since the primary defence for protoss is zealots and they cluster alon also tanks do splash and marrines basicly can focus 1 shot a zealot with that push i don't see any way it will be stoped. People now are comparing the 1/1/1 with the sentry immortal push, but man... sentry immortal's nothing compared to 1/1/1. It has no variety unlike the 1/1/1 it hits at the same time always and the hard counters are actually there (bane drops/hydra/muta) but people just don't rush to them for god knows what reason.
Fungal nerf thumbs up!
Seeker missile buff... NO NO!
dude, you are talking out of your ass. it takes ages to have more than one seeker missile, because its 125 energy. not even talking about the gas investment that pretty much stops you from getting any tanks. also you aware of hunter seeker doing friendly fire?
its not even remotely a viable strategy as 1/1/1 and imho not in general against toss. it might be a way against zerg air however, but risky, since fungal has more range and obviously raven has to be the one fucking caster unit thats not bionic ...
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I hope they just stick with the projectile thing, plus making it a slow. It's too complicated and unintuitive to remember things like Ravens not being psionic, while warp prisms are. I had similar confusion when learning what units I could snipe, including that I couldn't snipe archons.
Speaking of snipe, do any pros or interviewers ask why they didn't just change snipe vs massive, or rather, has anyone gotten answers? DB and DK seem to be more candid about this stuff lately; I was hoping they'd consider reverting the snipe change, except keep it low vs massive. If they find neural parasite slated for removal because it's "never used except vs mothership," they must at least be aware that snipe is unused except vs HTs. I think if HTs can feedback every unit in the game with an energy bar, potentially one-shotting the majority of them, snipe should be useful vs more than HTs.
Sure, if this psionic immune to fungal thing goes through, ghosts will have more chances to snipe infestors, but I am arguing against that change anyway. Even so, it's true I've sniped a few infestors with ghosts on live, but it still feels a lot simpler to just grab a few marauders and stim around, searching for creep tumors and infestors to snipe. I don't even mind if fungal had 1 more cast range if they went through with making fungal projectile + slow, since I can easily imagine stimmed marauders (or mutas) baiting a ton of fungal whiffs.
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On November 21 2012 22:53 trinxified wrote:
Who even uses Raven for HSM anyway? Most of their energy is dumped on the PDDs, as those are much more useful in most scenarios.
Hence they buffed HSM.
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On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it.
I'm not really talking about detection as much. In regards to defense which is my bigger issue. Warp prism harass is strong without the fungal nerf, if used correctly. With the nerf now, yes we can have spore crawlers and overseers everywhere, but the prisms aren't going to be able to be fungaled and taking out, which pretty much lets the the warp prism's have free reign as long as they are used intelligently.
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Don't know why they don't make fungal reduce movement speed instead and maybe not effect cloaked units.
- Immortal Push is stronger now like everyone says
- Speed Prism is too strong; it's only a matter of static defense against the mineral bank of the Protoss right now. Independent of balance, that's not attractive play. Defenders are supposed to find drops and sends units to them. The prism can't be finished off by any Zerg unit now. If fungal decreased movement speed it would be more attractive (like it is now but Zerg needs to have flying units to finish of prisms)
- Reducing movement speed would stop chain fungals, the most stupid thing in the game right now
- I think it's good that DTs and cloaked Ghosts aren't affected by fungal now. Zerg has already decent detection and it removes a bit of the universality of fungal
- The psionic nerf doesn't effect TvZ too much (unless Terrans can pull Ghosts off now) but fungal hurts this matchup more IMHO (PvZ was very static even before the rise of the Infestors)
Also: Why the custom map? Push it to your HotS beta or make a PTR to isolate the changes from HotS. There is no matchmaking with custom maps, so you cannot properly test things even if you try. Maybe you can play them with an evenly skilled friend but who does that? How do you expect to get something close to sane results with that?
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the games is so fucked I am happy about any changes may they be so irrelevant as the Raven change in TvZ
(ironically the first thing ill do with the new raven is 111ing Protoss with a hsmissile ready (° _ _)
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On November 21 2012 22:27 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:23 althaz wrote:
I heard about the fungal change in Monk's interview with the man in the greatest rock-related .gif of all time, but until I read this thread, I'd forgotten that DTs and Warp Prisms were psionic. I have gone from thinking this change is ok, to thinking it's THE BEST FUCKING IDEA EVER. Now Toss can actually abuse the immobility of infestor-brood and can legitimately go for macro-harass strategies. Right now harass becomes almost impossible once there's more than 4 infestors out, but with Prisms able to escape and DTs able to force static defense Toss can (if they are good enough) harass whilst building up their Carrier-HT-Archon-Whatever army and have the opportunity to actually beat Zergs in the late-game. How do 4 infestors make harass not viable? If they are not in the main army just roll over them. As a Zerg you want at least 8 Infestors to use some of them for defensive purpose. And you are right, now Toss can marco up while having RIDICOULS harassing units. Speedprism? Can't be killed anymore. Archons? Can't be fungaled. In combination? Unkillable air unit + mini AoE hard to kill unit which recovers 90% of its HP. How would you think about roaches which when burrowed are as fast as a warppism? Great harass right? Maybe slightly imba right? This is a massive overreaction, as we see when any patch note is revealed. No wait, it's not even a patch note, only something they are testing and may or may not be put into the live game.
Did you see any serious archon harass at diamond+ level over the last year? I guess not. Do you honestly believe the reason protoss players never do that is the fear that their archons might get fungaled?
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Really like the seeker missile chance. Was able to nicely add couple of ravens to my mech push, 3-5 made my push bit faster thanks to no need to add so many siege tanks and no need to siege so often when used some missiles.
Can't really say about late late game TvZ because at the level i play(diamond) late game TvZ doesn't actually look anything like it does in pro level.
exited to try ravens in TvP hate that match up, so i hope this brings something to it
ZvP those changes seem to be kinda rough considering how many units are actually psionic
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On November 21 2012 22:50 Big-t wrote:
Sorry for the stupid question, but how can I play this map on the EU server? "Antiga Shipyard (1.5.3 Balance)" got no hits.
Not in Arcade 
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On November 21 2012 22:46 Reality_Seeker wrote:
I don't like the seeker missile change cos it will lead to 1/1/1 with ravens and since the primary defence for protoss is zealots and they cluster alon also tanks do splash and marrines basicly can focus 1 shot a zealot with that push i don't see any way it will be stoped. People now are comparing the 1/1/1 with the sentry immortal push, but man... sentry immortal's nothing compared to 1/1/1. It has no variety unlike the 1/1/1 it hits at the same time always and the hard counters are actually there (bane drops/hydra/muta) but people just don't rush to them for god knows what reason.
Fungal nerf thumbs up!
Seeker missile buff... NO NO!
Terrans would have to give up PDD if they want to seeker on 1/1/1 making Stalkers/Phoenix stronger
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 22:27 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:23 m0ck wrote:
[quote]
Hello, my name is stimmed marine. And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines). And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords. Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change.
Protoss already has to drop harass lategame but it doesn't work because it's too easy to shut down with spines/spores. The warp prism harrassment is seriously the least important aspect of this change. MUCH more important are archon/HTs/HT drops on an infestor army. And maybe a viable DT/phoenix midgame strategy, which would be ridiculously awesome in my opinion. You have to come to terms with the fact that they have to give protoss a way to win PvZ because there currently is none unless zerg screws up.
Watch Symbol vs Seed from last GSL season.
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On November 21 2012 22:55 kebeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. I'm not really talking about detection as much. In regards to defense which is my bigger issue. Warp prism harass is strong without the fungal nerf, if used correctly. With the nerf now, yes we can have spore crawlers and overseers everywhere, but the prisms aren't going to be able to be fungaled and taking out, which pretty much lets the the warp prism's have free reign as long as they are used intelligently.
Its not hard to use a warp prism intelligently. Its just fly over somewhere safe, transform, press w, and mass click haha. Now, it will be pretty hard (unless zerg pre-emptively spam spore + spine) to kill the warp prism since they can just warp in kill stuff and leave. Zerg anti air is the worst out of the 3 race without fungal. The reason people spam infestor is not only because the unit is OP, but the unit allows zerg to stay competitive and patches the race weakness. Zerg's anti air are terrible, they dont have fast mobile anti air like toss (stalkers) and terran (marines), so the infestor allows zerg to not die to silly things. Remember pre infestor buff? Toss would just open SG into Colossus and would just roll zerg over because zerg had no anti air.
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On November 21 2012 22:58 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:27 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:23 althaz wrote:
I heard about the fungal change in Monk's interview with the man in the greatest rock-related .gif of all time, but until I read this thread, I'd forgotten that DTs and Warp Prisms were psionic. I have gone from thinking this change is ok, to thinking it's THE BEST FUCKING IDEA EVER. Now Toss can actually abuse the immobility of infestor-brood and can legitimately go for macro-harass strategies. Right now harass becomes almost impossible once there's more than 4 infestors out, but with Prisms able to escape and DTs able to force static defense Toss can (if they are good enough) harass whilst building up their Carrier-HT-Archon-Whatever army and have the opportunity to actually beat Zergs in the late-game. How do 4 infestors make harass not viable? If they are not in the main army just roll over them. As a Zerg you want at least 8 Infestors to use some of them for defensive purpose. And you are right, now Toss can marco up while having RIDICOULS harassing units. Speedprism? Can't be killed anymore. Archons? Can't be fungaled. In combination? Unkillable air unit + mini AoE hard to kill unit which recovers 90% of its HP. How would you think about roaches which when burrowed are as fast as a warppism? Great harass right? Maybe slightly imba right? This is a massive overreaction, as we see when any patch note is revealed. No wait, it's not even a patch note, only something they are testing and may or may not be put into the live game. Did you see any serious archon harass at diamond+ level over the last year? I guess not. Do you honestly believe the reason protoss players never do that is the fear that their archons might get fungaled?
Actually yes. They are afraid of getting fungaled and lose an investment worth of two collsi, wouldn't you be?
And it is not a MASSIVE overreaction since I am only focusing on two scenarios.
Drop harass with speedprism & sniping hatcherties with a lot of DTs.
I explained now enough why this is too much of a change "just" to make army engagments for T and P easier/not so onesided.
This change will have a major impact on other sides of the game which this patch shouldn't adress at all.
They always said they don't want to interfere with other thigns that might happen by patching X.
With this change they would interfere with early-/mid-&lategame in a way which I voiced very strongly what I feel about.
And I am not even anymore an active Zerg player, I switched to toss about 4-5 month now and guess what, how do I deal with lategame zerg? Speedprisms. Will I be happy to get a 80%+ winrate with speedprism? No. Because that will just result in more tears.
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Sorry to deviate the conversation away from fungals for a moment, but does this change to the seeker missile make it suddenly a favored option for harassing mineral lines considering the splash damage?
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EPT
